[Closed] Denplan

I use Denplan via work so costs me £8 a month. Went to hygienist 2 weeks ago (£60) which Denplan reimbursed in full so almost got my money back just from 1 hygienist visit. Dentist still not doing that much work though but should get another visit in of some sort before end of my annual enrolment next March so for me worth paying.

Obviously I can’t comment on your particular practice but I can tell you about mine.

100% honestly if I refunded all the denplan money for my patients, our practice would already be bankrupt and shut, 20 people would have lost their jobs and the bank would be coming after my house.

I’m honestly not exaggerating. Most dental practices have high fixed costs ( not including furloughed staff) and when they were shut, for many practices, denplan payments represented their only income stream.

The vast majority of practices offered all the care they were allowed to from March to June and reopened to face to face care almost immediately that they were allowed.

Dentistry is still very restricted. The new ppe is hard to get hold of and much more expensive plus, Normally after a filling or a hygienist scaling, the room can be cleaned and reused about 5 mins later.

Currently the room must be left sealed for 60 mins then deep cleaned (takes 15mins) before the next patient. We are having to use two rooms per dentist to avoid too much downtime so are seeing around 20% of the people per day we usually can (and we are trying to work as fast as possible)

My advice is to stick with denplan. The fees are fixed until Jan aren’t likely to rise much next year. If the current rules remain ( or even are relaxed but not back to normal) dentistry is going to get A LOT more expensive and it will get A LOT harder to get a place anywhere.

I doubt your friend is “in the money” right now and is probably keeping up appearances and shutting himself that his business will go Under.

and we are trying to work as fast as possible

Not sure that's what a patient wants to hear!

My advice is to stick with denplan. The fees are fixed until Jan aren’t likely to rise much next year

Denplan's fee increases are routinely higher than inflation so I'm a bit dubious about that, especially since you say dentistry is going to get a lot more expensive. It would be atypical of Denplan to show restraint or appreciation for customer forbearance.

Denplan fees are set by the practices themselves and are based on costs.

If a practice can only do 20% of the volume that its business model is based on then DPFs will need to rise to take this into account.

I suspect most practices will try and avoid pushing Denplan fees too much higher as a thank you but private fees will definitely go up sharply if the current situation remains for much longer. Denplan fees will have to follow suit though. No business can survive a 70-80% drop in volume without adjusting its fees accordingly.

If you’re u actually want a balanced view of the issues have a look at the British Dental Association Coronavirus section. You’ll see how f***ed dentistry is right now. Some practices have already shut / gone bust nationally.

I know Denplan became popular several years ago when you couldn't get a NHS dentist. Are they still that difficult to get?

Denplan fees are set by the practices themselves and are based on costs

Thanks for that. Interestingly enough, my dentist didn't mention that when I had moan about Denplan costs going up, it's almost as if he was happy for Denplan to act as a buffer for my discontent! "Based on costs" is a bit vague for comfort too.

I'll be interested to see the BDA's view on the situation.

When I checked, my Denplan premiums were pretty much the same as my costs that year, so I treat it for what it is, an insurance that spreads the cost.

Waiting to see if my check up next month happens.

My wife's NHS dentist is refusing to deal with her broken tooth at the moment. A friend cannot find an NHS dentist to deal with her foster child's broken tooth, but one did offer to do it if she paid private rates.

I have sympathy for dentists, but they aren't helping themselves

Intersting, my dentist wrote to me a couple of years ago saying he was stoping NHS work and going to Denplan and offering a plan. I just ignore it and everything carried on as normal, I kept going there as an NHS patient.

He then wrote to me a few months back suggesting I move to another practice (of his) but not actually saying he was striking me off as NHS, so I assume it was another 'suggestion' / attempt to get me to switch to private.

Then CV-19 came along and not tried to make an appointment, so no idea what's going on.

The Devon official waiting list was a 2 year wait before COVID for an nhs space

@morecash how are they not help8ng themselves? Most are trying very hard to remain a viable business so their patients still have care.

Believe me or not bu5 I promise I’m being honest with you. No dentist is ever laughing their way to a private island in the Bahamas whatever you think you know

@ceepers - I'm not criticising dentists for their financial situation, at no point have I suggested that they are raking it in.

But we currently have an NHS system locally where no one locally appears to be able to get any emergency treatment, which is ridiculous if we can now go and get a manicure and a massage. After all this time, when every cafe waitress I saw today had a face shield, I'm not seeing how that could have been allowed to happen.

Because the dentists aren’t a centrally funded and organised nhs service like gps and hospitals and the nhs themselves have been particularly rubbish at communicating and organising things. It’s not the dentists fault it’s the central nhs, Chief Dental Officer.

That’s why there is more private provision (where dentists have a business driver to get open and seeing patients) many fully nhs practices are in a better business position mostly shut.

The government has reaped the cost saving benefits of farming dentistry out as a contracted service. Some pidgins are coming home to roost perhaps

Currently the central nhs powers are only asking dentist to see urgent (iw severe toothache) cases

Currently I have a broken tooth (I think two) so drop into this thread just to say toothache is a nightmare. I am Not in pain or anything like that at the moment as it is just the side wall of the back tooth that falls off exposing the entire filling which is still there intact. Need to fix it soon as my dentist is, I think, preparing to reopen their practice by next month. Was told only emergency case at the moment so I can wait.

Friend just had his done due to severe toothache and was referred to another specialist private dentist. It was a root canal and a crown job but the price is reasonable around £900. I think mine quoted me beyond £1k.

I am also a private patient so I anticipate a larger bill this time. Worst case scenario is a crown. However, I can go anyway I like now that I know there is another good dentist nearby but sticking to my current dentist as they are good.

My normal routine is £84 per visit every 6 months which includes cleaning or polishing and a check up while anything else is extra but not excessive. I think my dentist also offer Denplan or something like that but I am not bothered. With my teeth I think Denplan or not the price is about the same.

OP, don’t be too hasty. Since the early 90’s successive governments have continued to reduce dental health care via the nhs.

I know that when the ‘New Contract’ was issued around that time, it became very difficult in all respects for a dentist to provide the level of care using the nhs fee scale, which was treatment and fee per item based - very much like traditional private dentistry. I don’t suppose the fee rates have increased proportionally since the early 90’s, so the only way a dentist can run a viable business on the nhs is to do volume, more patients, more treatments, etc.

Denplan Care is not insurance, there is an emergency insurance element within the core package, as it is stand alone and I think there are other more renumerative insurance products now available under the Denplan brand. Essentially, the core philosophy of Denplan Care was to enable a dental practice to provide the level of care they ascribed and wanted to and as such, the fee you pay is for time, not treatment. More time with the dentist or preferably hygienist gives us, the patients, a better chance of improving and retaining a higher level of oral health care. That’s the theory. Denplan Care is a capitation system, not insurance. It is a company that provides administrative services to dental practices, your contract is between you and your dentist. It is true that some dentists used to hide behind the brand, it is also true that there were other companies like Denplan where the dentist could brand their payment scheme under their own banner and not a corporate one.

A capitation health care system has a better chance of increasing personal responsibility for our health. IMHO.

I do see your point regarding paying monthly fees for little or no service, however, it is not the fault of the dentists. As @ceepers said, practices are only able to see a fraction of the patients they would have seen pre lockdown. I’m also aware that dentistry has bled qualified people away from it due to their concerns for their own personal safety and health. Remember, they are literally staring down the barrel of a gun in the form of an open mouth, and invariably, there is lots of saliva in liquid and droplet form, not to mention blood.

If you choose to leave the capitation scheme, then as indicated earlier, private fees will go up, there’s no foreseeable way any business could sustain a circa 70% drop in revenue and maintain the overheads, let alone one that has demands for peer review, continual professional training and expensive medical equipment to maintain.

You’d be better off hassling your local MP to ask why there are not enough dentists to provide for the population.

My knowledge is rusty, it was in the 90’s that I used to work for Denplan. I am aware that dentistry in this country was pretty ****ed up before the pandemic, there are many places where trying to find affordable dental health care is impossible and I cant see the situation improving anytime soon.

Thanks for the points made.
My wife and I currently pay £660 pa and were extremely happy with the service provided. I suppose the main query is if it would be better (?) or more cost effective to bin Denplan and go private. We are too old to qualify for a Health Care plan that would refund some or all the costs and we would of course save the same amount and drawdown on that for dental care - honest.
In pure cost comparison terms the local NHS/BUPA (?) dentist has lower published costs.

Interesting that kerely saw an hygienist recently. Ours is not working and no date set for her return. My feeling is that raising private fees will see a lot of churn in patient numbers so could be counter productive but who knows.
Inclined to stay with current set up but may have a moan when/if I ever get another appointment.

Most practices are currently having to run with each dentist running between two rooms to get around the 75 min down time after using the drill or scaling machine.

Hygienists can hand scale but some aren’t happy to do that all day as it’s inefficient and tiring and some practices will be using all their rooms as 2 per dentist seeing the urgent cases / treatment cancelled over lockdown so might not have space to bring the hygienist back yet.

We use simply health, look at it as a way to spread the cost but because several of us wear contact lenses and go to the dentist every six months we pay in less than they pay out, using any of the other benefits the plans provide is a further bonus.

It won't cover everything, e.g. full cost of crowns etc but is better than being hit with the full bill.

No dentist is ever laughing their way to a private island in the Bahamas whatever you think you know

My wife's dentist has got himself a new Bentley Convertible, so I'm not crying for him just yet.

I have been thinking the same myself, being a Denplan user too. It would be interesting to know what percentage of total income is made by Denplan payments as I haven't been offered any kind of rebate, I can't see a hygienist and, although our dentist has now re-opened, the person that called me recently did her best to dissuade me from going in for my regular check-up (which has already been delayed). If a dentist makes, say, 50% of income from Denplan and the other 50% from walk-ins and cosmetic work, then I can accept they might be struggling, however if they make 90% from Denplan and have furloughed all their staff then I can imagine they are sitting quite comfortably and not offering a service.

It varies from practice to practice but taking the places I know about, denplan is 50% or less of their income. We are under that figure.

Even with staff furloughed there are high fixed costs for practices. The various insuarances, clinical waste services, rent and the bank loans/ finance on equipment are all at high levels for most practices ( bear in mind your average dental room costs 40k plus to kit out )

@ceepers - do you think it is acceptable to continue to take money from people (some of whom may be financially struggling themselves due to the current situation) in order to finance the cost of running a practice at a time when many will have benefitted from other Government financial support?

And surely a practice won't be paying for clinical waste services when they have been shut?

actually they will be paying for waste, its a yearly fee spread over 12 months. Also apart from furlough, theres not a lot of help apart from loans which increase the debt in a business with an uncertain future.

People can always stop paying but if they want a practice to come back to then its helpful if they do. Most denplan patients go many months between visits in a normal year anyway.

To be honest, believe me or not, I know the true situation and I also know that all dentists want is to be fairly rewarded for providing high levels of care in a demanding and stressful difficult job. That job has got a lot more dangerous, stressful and difficult in the current situation and it has wrecked the business model that has provided the dental care for the majority of the population for decades.

to quote a BDA survey, 70% of practices could not guarantee their financial viability in 3 months time

to quote a BDA survey, 70% of practices could not guarantee their financial viability in 3 months time

I am not sure how that changes things - does that make it more or less ethical to continue to take money from people via Denplan if they think they will not be around to be able to provide the service for which they continue to be paid?

know the true situation and I also know that all dentists want is to be fairly rewarded for providing high levels of care in a demanding and stressful difficult job.

Since you are working in the system, I'd live to hear your thoughts (defence??) on the situation raised above where a dentist is refusing to provide service under nhs but happy to do it privately. There a couple of ways to look at it, the more obvious one doesn't look good in the profession.

If all these practises close, where will the dentists go?

Not all practices will go but it will be harder and more expensive for patients to find care.

A service has been provided as far as it was allowed. Just not the normal service.

Dentistry is very restricted right now and there is no indication when that will change (if ever!). The number of people that can be seen is around 20% of the old normal.
people have to decide if they want access to care or not. If they do them they have to be prepared to fund it in a sustainable way.

Re the above.....Today is the first day that the nhs has asked dentists to begin providing a full range of care and see their own nhs patients face to face.

That said, that’s not how we or anyone I know have acted and it’s not the nicest way to treat your patients.

Also when the Chief Dental Officer allowed practice to reopen on 8th June, she actively discouraged practices from seeing anything other than severe pain or swelling face to face. Broken teeth weren’t considered an “urgent” problem.

In fact the reopening of any practice was rushed through (dentists found out from bbc news!) it was driven by pressure from private practices legally challenging and threatening to ignore the CDO “advice to close”. Before they did that, the CDO expected us to all be shut a lot longer

cromolyolly
Member

know the true situation and I also know that all dentists want is to be fairly rewarded for providing high levels of care in a demanding and stressful difficult job.

Since you are working in the system, I’d live to hear your thoughts (defence??) on the situation raised above where a dentist is refusing to provide service under nhs but happy to do it privately. There a couple of ways to look at it, the more obvious one doesn’t look good in the profession.

I can provide an insight to that gained from many face to face discussions with practitioners, before, during and after their transition from an entirely nhs funded practice to one that had a mix of nhs and independent revenue. For many, their reasoning was because they could not afford to provide the service based on the very low nhs fee rates, generally speaking, the nhs fee rates based on £/hour fell desperately short of what the practice required to operate, and make a profit. Which, like it or not, is the one of the main aims of a commercial organisation.

The significant majority of dentists at the time, would have preferred to provide free at the point of delivery service that is essentially the nhs. The transition often required time for the dentists to come to terms with the reality.

I have no idea what the nhs fee rates are nowadays, but I dare say that a routine check up, scale and polish fee paid to the dentist is very low and if the practice needs to generate hundreds of pounds per hour to make it viable, how many patients would need to be seen to meet that hourly rate? Lots and lots. Fillings mean that the lowest priced and quality materials are used, to keep costs down.

As in all walks of life, there are the shysters and dentistry is no different. Their motives are fundamentally for the money, to be honest, as a patient, you can spot these people quite quickly, for example do they plug their cosmetic work heavily? Implants have seen a huge growth and whilst it’s the more ‘fun’ aspect of dentistry, a healthy mix with the core message being prevention and education, then you can be pretty sure of the ethics of that practice.

To add to
Slackalices post, an NHS Examination, x rays and scale and polish is worth one unit of dental activity to a practice. The exact value of a “UDA” varies from practice to practice but the national average is £25.

Always find it interesting that people don’t moan half as much about the cost of vets and pet insurance which is around double the monthly cost of denplan and something you may not use even once in a year

I've just learned my dentist died at the start of the month, suicide I beleive. My wife had an appointment on the Friday before, bit gutted really, he was a lovely bloke and great dentist. Everything is not rosy in dentist land. Hed told my wife his practice manager was off with mental health problems as well.

Always find it interesting that people don’t moan half as much about the cost of vets and pet insurance which is around double the monthly cost of denplan and something you may not use even once in a year

Looks up insurance cost for dog dental care as opposed to all risk cover...

my detist does NHS work - and a lot of it. He owns several practices and is clearly making good money - he does cosmetic dentistry as well.

No pressure to go private, still got openings for NHS dentistry and the surgery is state of the art I believe. They do seem to go thru salaried dentists tho

Yes johndoh I’m sure that if all you’re expecting is similar standard of treatment and treatment options your dog gets then Dentistry is a total rip off. I suspect you expect more than just extractions and the odd scale and polish to be offered.

Also if you price up “all body cover” for humans, it’s over £100 a month for most people so £25 a month for yoUr teeth is not too bad?

Also your making a stupid argument about something you obviously don’t know enough about.

As stumpyjon says, suicide rate is high amongst dentists. It’s the profession with the highest rate. I can name about 5 dentists who I knew directly or were a boss of a friend who have committed suicide. I don’t think many people could say that about work colleagues. There is a reason for that, and it’s not cos they were all so rich they were bored of their easy life....

@tjagain, then your dentist is clearly happy to provide a treatment based service. Multiple practices, it’s a numbers game, more patients seen per day = more money. Not all dentists are, thankfully, of the same philosophy, however it’s good to know that some patients are happy to spend a few brief moments in a chair before being ushered out before the next one arrives. I dare say with all the latest cross infection controls and deep cleaning of rooms between patients, his volume approach will suffer. Possibly as much as the oral health of his vast patient list...

Gotta love STW for the outliers.

My apointments are 20 mins for a check and 40 - 60 if treatment required. Is that "spend a few brief moments in a chair before being ushered out"?

Yes he is, or at least the whole practice is (was!) since that’s the only way a practice is viable being totally nhs. It must be high volume, low cost or it can’t exist ( I’m not making this up and I do know)

If you see the owner (& are one of how long term patients ) it’s perfectly possible that he is subsidising his list with the earnings the group of practices make & his private (&cosmetic) work because he wants a less stressful working life (Ironically the reason dentists go Denplan) & wants to keep seeing people on the nhs ( cos surprisingly most dentists would love to provide an nhs service if they could without paupering themselves or burning out in a ball of stress (or worse- see above))

I sincerely doubt he’s doing his cosmetic dentistry on the nhs.

Also your making a stupid argument about something you obviously don’t know enough about.

*you're

... an NHS Examination, x rays and scale and polish is worth one unit of dental activity to a practice. The exact value of a “UDA” varies from practice to practice but the national average is £25.

That NHS rate is very low.

Friend had X-ray for £80 private. I think mine charged me lesser at £55 if I can recall.

Just found out my wife was the last patient he saw on the Friday before passing on the Sunday. Totally messing with her head (and mine to some extent), he seemed fine, definitely not suicidal, more concerned about the health of his practice manager.

Just been talking to some friends who run their own dental laboratory, they've known quite a few dentists who've committed suicide. Definitely a thing.

@chekw yes it is low which is why volume is important for nhs practice.

Another example, the NHS pays £75 on average for a course of treatment including a filling or extraction. That’s not too bad? Here’s the rub....

That £75 is for the WHOLE course of treatment so it covers the original check up, any x rays, a scale and polish if necessary and any number of fillings or extractions that are required at that time.

£75 is stretched a bit thin if the patient needs 3 fillings and a tooth out!

It discourages dentists from taking new patients who need lots of treatment which is partly why NHS spaces are difficult to get for new patients.

And if you attend an NHS practice, there are only 3 tiers of pricing (~£22, ~£62, ~£270) set by NHS to fit with Ceepers explanation above.

(Ceepers explanantion is spot on - except the practice gets less than £75 for examination, all preventative treatment needed, any non lab made restorations and all extractions, no matter how many appointments or how much time needed. I won't go into the fact a denture costs me more to get made than the NHS fee I receive. Note that the NHS only actually pay £13 more to the practiec, fee paying NHS patients pay the lion's share of the cost
And those fees pay for the entire business, loans, staff, insurance, consumables as well as paying the dentist)

Any other price you pay is non-NHS work.

NHS practices (or rather practices with NHS contract) can supplement their NHS contract with private work but the patient must be informed what is NHS and what is not.

Clearly off home early now in my Bentley, to spend afternoon in spa with wife drinking champagne, not doing my best to keep a business going, to keep staff in work and patients well cared for...

And no, I don't offer Denplan...

To all other toothsmiths out there, please reach out to friends/go for a bike ride when the dark thoughts strike, cos they will...