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I think people don't really understand what this means.
It means that people can vote on things.
It does not mean that everyone's wishes are taken into account.
It does not mean that everyone has a say.
It is not the perfect system, nor should you expect it to be.
It is not a shining beacon of justice, a goal for all humanity.
It is not a synonym for justice, equality and truth.
May becoming PM is democratic (even though it's not representative of the country as a whole), because there was a vote. The fact that everyone else pulled out does not negate that. The fact that the electorate didn't vote for her does not mean it's not democratic.
It may be a poorly designed and unrepresentative democratic system, but that's another issue. There is good demoracy, and bad democracy, and democracy that's good in some people's eyes and bad in others'.
I vote we do this on the other thread. Who's with me?
May becoming PM is democratic
yes.
Her government implementing a Brexit plan that no-one voted for, or even knows what it is, is not democratic.
Next question.
If you ask unqualified people to vote you end up with a bit of a mess.
(Bit like those who ask the STW forum medical/pension type questions)
[I]Her government implementing a Brexit plan that no-one voted for, or even knows what it is, is not democratic.[/I]
Well, you could argue that the people voted for the plan without knowing what it was.
"The best argument against democracy is five minutes with the average voter" as Churchill said.
😕IHN - Member
Well, you could argue that the people voted for the plan without knowing what it was.
TBF, most people vote for things they don't fully understand when it comes to the economy etc.
I disagree (although I don't care).May becoming PM is democratic (even though it's not representative of the country as a whole), because there was a vote.
There wasn't a vote on who should become leader, there was a vote on who got through to the next step of the process. Even though I can't stand him, it should really have been Gove Vs May put before the 300,000 Conservative Party members.
Which is why it's dumb to let us vote on complex issues.TBF, most people vote for things they don't fully understand when it comes to the economy etc.
seosamh77 - it's true though, isn't it? It was clear in the referendum campaigning that the Brexit camp(s) had no idea how it would actually work, just vague ideas about taking back control etc etc. A sufficiently large proportion of the electorate said "yeah, okay, that's good enough", so now that's what we get.
I'm not saying it'd right, the whole effing thing is idiotic, but so is democracy. Unfortunately we've not found anything better.
Bend over (willingly) everyone....
You forget a large part of the brexit campaign was about democracy.
Quite interesting that over [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/11/brexit-parliament-should-make-ultimate-decision-on-whether-to-leave-eu-barristers-say ]1000 Barristers have lobbied parliament[/url], questioning the legality of the referendum, describing the result as only advisory because it was based on “misrepresentations of fact and promises that could not be delivered”.
1000. Barristers.
That's a lot of coffee.
Democracy involves a vote not being the last one standing.
Democracy is a bit of a myth.
Should the decision of whether I get my ACL operated on be put to the country or left between me and the surgeon?
I vote we do this on the other thread. Who's with me?
No-one it seems. Which is a shame, as you had my vote 🙁
Democracy also has to be aware of the tyranny of the majority to be a fair democracy. This is something many do not understand or choose to ignore.
1000. Barristers.That's a lot of [s]coffee[/s] fees.
FTFY
There wasn't a vote on who should become leader
There was one round of votes, remember. Then the other contenders realised they didn't have the support. So the one with the most support won. There was no point in having the vote as it was a foregone conclusion.
Still democratic - all the candidates had the opporunity to get support.
Massive nit picking. Anyway this thread is not about brexit - it's just clearing up what democracy means, as people are waving the word about as a criticism of everything and anything.
arguably Curchill would think referendums undemocratic
He marks his ballot paper in strict secrecy, and [b]then elected representatives and together decide what government, or even in times of stress, what form of government they wish to have in their country[/b]. If that is democracy, I salute it. I espouse it. I would work for it.”
it's just clearing up what democracy means, as people are waving the word about as a criticism of everything and anything.
You picked a bad example.
Anyway this thread is [about] clearing up what democracy means, as people are waving the word about as a criticism of everything and anything.
You're a weird guy.
Which political commentator said "....the land of the free, whoever told you that is your enemy..."?
You're a weird guy.
I do my best 🙂
🙂
Trimix - Member
If you ask unqualified people to vote you end up with a bit of a mess.
One of the most arogant and bigoted posts I have read on this forum !
I guess you would disenfranchise the old the sick any one who does not have a degree or who does not agree with you . but quite happily spend their taxes.
yes lord no lord tug the forlock and back to the dark ages
Bollocks.
If you asked me to vote on the next England manager, would you respect my decision? Would you want to agree with me if I voted for Stephen Fry? Or would you tell me I didn't know anything about football?
You can't just shout DEMOCRACY and expect everything to be fine. Sad reality is, some people's opinions on some things aren't worth much. Like mine on football.
One man/woman, one vote. If you don't bother thats your choice, we also do not get to vote on everything. We have a Parliament to do that and we elect them every 5 years.
[i]There was one round of votes, remember. Then the other contenders realised they didn't have the support. So the one with the most support won. There was no point in having the vote as it was a foregone conclusion.[/i]
Hmm, since the voters were the Conservative Party members I'm not sure there was a 'foregone conclusion' - or has someone been around and already asked them?
I reckon that there were skeletons in AL's cupboard, or she'd been promised something.
And referendums and especially the brexit one, is a form of ochlocracy not democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy
Ochlocracy ("rule of the general populace") is democracy ("rule of the people") spoiled by demagoguery, [b] "tyranny of the majority", and the rule of passion over reason, [/b] just as oligarchy ("rule of a few") is aristocracy ("rule of the best") spoiled by corruption, and tyranny is monarchy spoiled by lack of virtue. Ochlocracy is synonymous in meaning and usage to the modern, informal term "mobocracy", which arose in the 18th century as a colloquial neologism.
or has someone been around and already asked them?
I think many of them were asked and showed their allegiance yes.
Are you saying people should not be allowed to withdraw when they know it's a lost cause, cos there has to be a vote regardless?
does anyone who believe's in democracy want a Second eu referendum??? cos that would be .... 😆
Hehe.. yes.. what if the opinion of the masses has changed..? 🙂
Sad reality is, some people's opinions on some things aren't worth much.
Maybe on their own, but there is a theory that as part of crowd they often show more wisdom than experts.
Is there? Where's that theory? And how does it work if the uninformed opinions outnumber the informed ones?
How does it work when there are many opinions but only a binary choice, and each of those different positions only overlap partially?
How does it work when the thing being voted on is actually an unknown?
its a good job You know what yer talking about or else we might have ended up Staying in the Eu, and That would have been (as most of us 'Thicko's' know, a Disaster! 😯 😆
I think the problem here is not the concept of democracy but the conduct and implementation of it.
To start with our FPTP GE system isn't really representative democracy. It is almost the opposite as the majority of people never get what they ask for.
The referendum was allowed to be based on misinformation, pandering to base emotion and lies on both sides with no ability to hold those responsible to account and now a non-binding vote with no rules or requirements by 37% of the population is being voiced like it is a legal mandate.
So the process may have been democratic within the loose definition of the term but I wouldn't want to use it as an instructive example of how democracy works and could be enacted for the betterment of society.
I think the problem here is not the concept of democracy but the conduct and implementation of it.
That is my point, in a nutshell.
They asked the people the wrong question for the wrong reasons. And at least a few people answered for the wrong reasons too.
Citizens educated or not, rightfully are entitled to vote for the party they see as best representing them both at home and on the world stage. You don't always get what you want, that's the point, it would be your dictatorship otherwise, as much as many people would love that!
Things I'd change:
FPTP
The House of Lords
PM and MP's accountability
Party funding
Further transparency of the Civil Service, HMRC and Judiciary with regard to undue influence and what are deemed to be state secrets.
Ultimately it's up to us to collectively demand higher standards and force transparency on our politicians and political systems. There's certainly been some movement in this area, most recently for example MP's are now more wary than ever of their investments/vested interests and expenses, still a long way to go mind!
I'm not sure I'd want the Lords to end up like the Commons. Maybe a non-party affiliated system, with longer terms..
Maybe on their own, but there is a theory that as part of crowd they often show more wisdom than experts.
But in this case, it was as uniformed and idiotic as shareholders in a technology company voting to develop a perpetual motion device in direct violation of the second and third laws of thermodynamics.
FPTP
The House of Lords
PM and MP's accountability
Party funding
Further transparency of the Civil Service, HMRC and Judiciary with regard to undue influence and what are deemed to be state secrets.
I think that it takes a special kind of lunatic to demand more direct representation, after the brexit referendum and all of its fallout.
It does not mean that everyone has a say.
It does if they are 18 or over and can be bothered to register to vote and saunter down to their local polling station.
Soulwood. Know your enemy. And rage against the machine
I think that it takes a special kind of lunatic to demand more direct representation, after the brexit referendum and all of its fallout.
@ Tom_W1987 - Why's that then?
I'm touring the play "democracy" later this year in Scotland.
www.rapturetheatre.co.uk. You should all come.
Tom_W1987 - Why's that then?
Because we live in a post-reason, group-think age?
Because I'd rather live under a permanent benign dictatorship of old etonians, than see some actual fascists in parliament reciting "Mein Kampf" in geordie accents?
@ Tom_W1987 - Hmmmm right suppose I did ask 🙄
Why is there such a rush to do this Brexit thing?
Everything suddenly changes in a few weeks, leave the EU and a new prime minister. Just like that!
Why is the perfectly reasonable idea of even reconsidering the decision in parliment rejected with shouts of "it is the the will of the people" etc..even though the country is pretty obviously evenly divided.
Why is a petition signed by millions is rejected and/or only passed for consideration in a manner that means it is pointless and powerless anyway?
Since when have referendums been a thing?
And why can't we have another one if they are so good?
Should we be asking ourselves who will profit from this?
Seems like a monumental joke is being played on the whole county.
It does if they are 18 or over and can be bothered to register to vote and saunter down to their local polling station.
You're confusing democracy with universal suffrage.
You're confusing democracy with universal suffrage.
😀
cause it's been a stitch up from the very beginning?iffoverload - Member
Why is there such a rush to do this Brexit thing?Everything suddenly changes in a few weeks, leave the EU and a new prime minister. Just like that!
Why is the perfectly reasonable idea of even reconsidering the decision in parliment rejected with shouts of "it is the the will of the people" etc..even though the country is pretty obviously evenly divided.
Why is a petition signed by millions is rejected and/or only passed for consideration in a manner that means it is pointless and powerless anyway?
Since when have referendums been a thing?
And why can't we have another one if they are so good?Should we be asking ourselves who will profit from this?
Seems like a monumental joke is being played on the whole county.
No, don't blame the stupidity of the unwashed masses on some evil etonian conspiracy and collusion between leave and remain - to actually secretly **** you.
Because that will lead to more Farrages, Galloways, *cough* Corbyns 😆 *cough^ to come out of the woodwork.
David Cameron was simply stupid and patriotic enough to believe that his countrymen had a higher IQ than they did in reality. It's the lack of trust in authority and the continual rabid suspicion of conspiracy and corruption in all institutions that got us here in the first place.
Holding the ref during a major sporting event, that sees nationalist fervour flying high wasn't planned? Straight out of alex salmonds playbook that yin.
yes I know slightly different, but england were always going to get pumped out in the 2nd round, so advantage needed to be taken before then! 😆
No, just short sighted on Camerons part - his cabinet and advisers probably only follow "ruggers".
You'll honestly never convince me otherwise. No euros, no brexit!
David Cameron was simply stupid and patriotic enough to believe that his countrymen had a higher IQ than they did in reality.
fair comment, but why the rush to crash on ahead at full speed without further consideration? especially considering the long term and unpredictable consequences of the decision.
that is just plain stupid.
It is like one of those salesmen that make you sign to take advantage of the "exclusive time limited special offer" before you change your mind, even though it is non of those things..(and even with those you get a cooling off period)
I vote we do this on the other thread. Who's with me?
I might have been, but simply saying that we'll 'do it' on the other thread didn't give me any indications what you were going to do or how. I can't make an informed decision on that basis.
David Cameron was simply stupid and patriotic enough to believe that his countrymen had a higher IQ than they did in reality.
It is quite incredibly to think that his arrogance has cost the UK it's European membership. A 'slam dunk' vote supposed to unite the Tory Party has probably set our economy back years, from which it may never recover and cost him his job. He'll always be known as the PM who accidentally lost Europe and broke up the Union (probably).
Can comebody explain the democracy in this situation to me please:
Especially when [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/01/15/queen-veto-war-powers_n_2477422.html ]the Royal veto[/url] comes into play...
[b]The Queen also vetoed entirely a private member’s Bill, the Military Actions Against Iraq (Parliamentary Approval) Bill 1999, that would have transfered the power to authorise military strikes against Iraq from the monarch to Parliament[/b]It is widely assumed that the royal prerogative, the authority to declare war, rests now with the prime minister rather than the Queen herself.
However, these documents raise questions about how much power the monarch still has over the elected government of the day.
From the first page: "300,000 conservative party members" More like half that.
Very interesting reading on Ochlocracy, Tom, cheers for that. Especially the examples at the end. Demands for sacrifice to appease an angry crowd. Pretty much exactly what's happened here.
And if anyone's not seen this before, it's a very good summary of why this referendum was set up and framed so poorly:
https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c
To start with our FPTP GE system isn't really representative democracy. It is almost the opposite as the majority of people never get what they ask for.
When they do, you'll more than likely end up like Italy, who've had 62 governments in 67 years.