[Closed] Dealing with racism

Iz it cos you iz black ?

Interesting. Are you going to be able to change their attitude? if not will it bug you? Can you agree to disagree?

If you can't change their mind and it will bug you then you will fall out with them over it eventually unless you agree to disagree.

if it's a deeply held fundamental belief that they have you'll never change it. The only thing you can change is you and your actions. If it truly bothers you then you have to decide if you still want to associate with the person.

I work with an ex police officer who is one of the most racist bigots I've ever met. However I have to work with him, he'll never change and the only option is to wait for him to mess up in such a way that HR can get involved.

Accept they don't have the same view as you, either because of experience/ignorance/influence

Piety will get you absolutely nowhere

Are you going to be able to change their attitude?

I'm more wondering if I should even try. After all I can't know that unless I do try.

Accept they don't have the same view as you,

Although I'm tempted by this, it just doesn't feel right. Surely when we as people encounter racism, we should strive to cure it, rather then just accepting it. I don't think racism should ever just be accepted.

Just leave him to it. As long as it isn't adversely affect anyone else why should you care? Everyone is entitled to their opinions and as long as it doesn't manifest itself in an overt way then that's their prerogative. He could be agonising about confronting you about being a sexual deviant. Which you may or may not be. But that's your business not his.

failing that sign them up via email to every anti nazi league, Anti fascist action etc... news letter you can and watch them go mental 😀

Uncle Jeremy +1

I've been in similar situations and figure as long as i make it clear i dont hold the same views its down to them if they want to stop spending time with me.

By being upfront and honest its usually enough to stop them bringing up the views again when i'm around.

hope it works out ok dude 🙂

If you find this person's views repellent, you have to choose just how much you can continue to respect them and want to associate with them.

I have a similar issue with a friend of mine from university. Lovely bloke in so many ways, but he has the most appallingly sexist views.

If a woman is assaulted, well, she was "probably asking for it". Women who achieve shagged their way to the top. Ugly women who got to the top are probably man-hating lesbians. All of this is deeply-felt, and is delivered without a shred of irony; he really means it. I'm deeply uncomfortable with it, as is my wife, and it's caused confrontations in the past.

He's not aggressive towards women or anything like that, he's simply got the sort of stone-age views that my long-departed grandfather would have been embarrassed by.

Without any consious decision to do so, over the years I've let the friendship slide; looking back, this fundamentally unacceptable belief of his has been one of the major causes.

Another thing is I don't even think they realise its racism, as in to her its just a fact of life.

Think you might be right phil.

Although I'm tempted by this, it just doesn't feel right. Surely when we as people encounter racism, we should strive to cure it, rather then just accepting it. I don't think racism should ever just be accepted.

Really?

My old man hated the japanese with a venomous passion that was undoubtably racist.

Why? He'd helped liberate POW camps in the far east during the final months of ww2.

He was a rational and intelligent man who hated the Japanese race.

I could not bring myself to argue with him.

Was I wrong?

I'm not clear how

quite seriously racist

and

It's not a type of racism that will pop up a lot (probably never)

can be reconciled.

First of all, if they are willing to talk, listen to them and try to understand their POV. IMO it's no good to be challenging and indignant unless you understand the source of their beliefs. Once you understand why they seem racist then you can judge whether it's right wing nastiness or a weak mind or something else that drives them.

If they won't talk then leave it for a while until they will. If it upsets you to be in their company knowing them to be racist then unfortunately you have a tough choice to make.

Don't forget, we're all products of our influences. Sometimes it takes much thought to see where those influences originate and how they can unwittingly affect our behaviour.

I hope you can sort it out.

Although I'm tempted by this, it just doesn't feel right. Surely when we as people encounter racism, we should strive to cure it, rather then just accepting it. I don't think racism should ever just be accepted.

I must say, I've never met a racist who was shy about sharing their opinions once they felt comfortable. It's one of the more objectionable things about it - they crave approval and will often make racist remarks to test the waters, looking for some tacit acceptance by people not challenging their viewpoint.

mrsconsequence was a little bit racist when i first met her, after talking lots and lots it turned out it was the result of a childhood in a pretty racist area and a racist dad with nobody to challenge those views. within a few months of us being together those racist views had disappeared. not just down to me, but exposure to lots of different cultures at uni helped her as well 🙂

If you have a racist friend now is the time for your friendship to end.

True, but you said yourself you won't be encountering it. So if he's racist in your presence, challenge him. If not, there's nothing to be done without getting into the realm of the thought police.

There's almost nothing more boring than dealing with dyed-in-the-wool racists, the sort who say that they've read up all about it, that Hitler did some bad stuff but that basically his policies were OK.....you'll not change their mind, so tell them that they're talking utter **** and then drop them like a hot brick.

Difficult if it's a family member, obviously.

Naranjada, she is racist towards a group of people who you rarely get in England, or I imagine anywhere else other then the part of the country they're from. Nor is it a part of the world I particularly want to visit.

yossarian, I don't really know how to answer that. Perhaps its a bit of a grey area. Perhaps not.

Having been brought up in West central Scotland with it's rampant bigotry and racism i think sometimes it's just ignorance through a small town upbringing, or it might be caused by something they had to deal with growing up. I used to think i was racist and caused quite a lot of mischief in our local asian shop, faught gypsy type travellers etc.

I am now due to be married to a lovelly asian woman and have mellowed a lot over the years. The issue has now been reversed and we are given a lot of evil looks and comments are made to my future missus. There are plenty of areas in Birmingham we can't go to because she is of ****stani origin and i'm white.

Hundreds of years of culture won't change regardless of social integration.

I don't think I could 'just leave it'. At the least I'd have to confront it and let them make their mind up whether they were able to continue a friendship with me knowing that I hated a part of them. If they can, OK, but it would always be in the knowledge of what they are and what you are.

I have good friendships where we have significantly different (polar opposite) views on some points and we've had some right barneys over the years, but we can both respect each other's position because they are at least reasoned and logical positions. I can't EVER see that true racism is logical and reasoned.

There are plenty of areas in Birmingham we can't go to because she is of ****stani origin and i'm white

😯

theotherjonv, that's how I feel I think.

There are lots of racist people in every country. This will never change.

It's unfortunately just a part of life.

Are we talking proper racist or the ignorant and ill informed stupidity sort? Need examples really

[edited - didn't like the way it read. Will repost later when I've rephrased]

edit2: Zedsdead - part 1 is true but if we don't challenge part 2 then it definitely won't.

proper racist or the ignorant and ill informed stupidity sort

They are studying maths at uni with me, to give you an idea of intelligence and how logical they are. I think it may be a deeply held belief type of racism, but not sure how it came about. Not quite sure what you mean by proper racist though.

To play devils advocate for one second, there's a set of hypothetical circumstances that you believe is resist but the other person doesn't. If I've understood tho.ha correctly so far, and without any actual details, is it possible that your assessment of the situation could be wrong?

If you can't discuss this with (let's call him Racist Randy)Randy, then maybe evaluate why he's got this issue.

Say Randy beats Mrs Randy; he's not beating [i]you[/i] so it's all gravy. Am I right?! She probably deserved it anyway.

I can't maintain relations with people once I find their values to be so flawed. I will attempt to challenge (through conversation), but if this gets nowhere then it's over.

Sure there are plenty of ignorant people (this is a flexible number, we can reduce this) but tolerating it is as bad as spouting it yourself.

Life is too short for tolerating bullshit.

is it possible that your assessment of the situation could be wrong?

They believe that 100% of the people born in the part of the country are bad people. Pretty much her words. How else am I meant to assess that?

edit2: Zedsdead - part 1 is true but if we don't challenge part 2 then it definitely won't.

I'm in India working just now and uneducated people especially are hugely racist. With over 1 billion people I think it will be a long long time....
They're even racist to each other!

Quite a mad place!

Sounds like an aussie guy I know who goes on about indigenous Australians like they aren't human ( he actually said sub humans FFS) I don't like it at all and as a slightly foreign type myself I just wonder if he thinks I'm a wop or somesuch..

i made a decison many years ago to never let racism, sexism or homophobia go unchallenged.
Personally I could not be friendly with anyone who was racist - ignorance /stupidity is a bit different as i may try to educate. Only a moron says all of x are y. Perhaps you can do an equation to explain why their reasoning is flawed.
Have you tried just asking them why they think this and then explaining why what they say /think is flawed?

I've confronted racist beliefs in people that I know.. some of whom I love very dearly.. some who I have just met through drinking circles..

You get a mixed response..
Some of these people have pitied my views.. some have been interested in rational debate on the issue.. some are embarrassed.. I think only once was I confronted with open hostility.. I have no doubt that I've soured a few friendships.. some irrevocably..

It's often worth getting your point across in a reasonable manner if the issue arises.. just to keep your pride intact if nothing else.. although I have left the issue well alone on rare occasions too..

I once uttered a very nasty word in the presence of a West Indian friend of mine (I was 9). He proceeded to beat the you-know-what out of me.

I was a quick learner.

I'm wondering how different the responses on here would have been if I had said it was racism towards British people (its not).

Are you really that stuck for friends ? Get some better ones.

I firmly beleive your man Edmund Burke I think it was:

"all that it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing"

(or something along those lines)

I'm wondering how different the responses on here would have been if I had said it was racism towards British people (its not).

Oh I get it all the time here. I just shrug it off.

People are entitled to their own views. I've got loads of friends who I disagree with on lots of things, but generally speaking we accept the other's point of view. If everyone thought/spoke/acted the same way the world would be a duller place.

Surely when we as people encounter racism, we should strive to cure it, rather then just accepting it. I don't think racism should ever just be accepted.

Well you are going to struggle in life then, racism in varying degrees is everywhere. Just accept that some people, including yes, some quite nice people, are racist. That doesn't mean you should not do anything about it, of course you should - just don't bore the pants off someone about it.

Racism is always invariably based on ignorance (yes nice people can be ignorant too) and I completely disagree with the suggestion that it is one of those things which you will never change in a person. On the contrary, I find that challenging a person's racist views is remarkable easy compared to challenging other attitudes, ie, ignorance really isn't that hard to challenge. And the fact that racism is remarkably stupid and unbelievably absurd, makes particularly easy imo. It doesn't happen overnight though of course.

philconsequence makes the point extremely well with his post :

[i]mrsconsequence was a little bit racist when i first met her, after talking lots and lots it turned out it was the result of a childhood in a pretty racist area and a racist dad with nobody to challenge those views. within a few months of us being together those racist views had disappeared. not just down to me, but exposure to lots of different cultures at uni helped her as well[/i]

If everyone thought/spoke/acted the same way the world would be a duller place.

Oh how dull the world would be if there were no racists.

So thank **** for the Klux Ku Klan eh ?

proper racist or the ignorant and ill informed stupidity sort

The hate/ignorance curve?

Last night - having a drink and playing pool with my son. A recent aquaintence and his son and another lad join us and start telling pretty rubbish jokes, badly. I try not be judgemental but I've never been comfortable with people laughing too much at their own punchlines. Twitch.
Then, said aquaintence starts searching for jokes on his phone to show me. ("Oh you've just got to read this, it's so funny"). I have doubts.

So he asks me: "Are you okay with racist jokes?"
Ugh.
I reply: "No. Of course I'm *ing not okay with them. Would anyone be, now. *ing hell."
His son is Romanian and making a point I ask if they were jokes about Romanians. They both interpret this as me being deadpan (okay, as intended) and laugh at it.
"Okay, it's fair enough. I won't show you the racist ones, but check this".
He passes me his phone and invites me to read a couple of jokes where, inevitably the mysogeny/humour ratio is heavily imbalanced.

Prejudice can seem specific (apparent when you challenge) but I reckon it's pretty broad and if someone has ulterior and arbitrary reasons to put others down then you can never be sure you're on solid ground with them.

Racist jokes get passed around all the time ,it doesn't make you racist if you laugh does it?.Do you laugh at jokes about the Irishman Englishman and Scotsman?

Uh oh.

I find that challenging a person's racist views is remarkable easy compared to challenging other attitudes

it depends, if it's just ignorant ****tishness then yep I agree completely.

If it's a proper fundamental belief backed up with sociopolitical and/or religious re-enforcement then you're banging you head against a brick wall. doesn't mean we shouldn't try though.

nice troll Edric 😀

Racist jokes get passed around all the time ,it doesn't make you racist if you laugh does it?.

Oooh, very good point Edric. I think I'm going to have to go away and think about that one.

Although I suspect, I will probably conclude that it's all down to this incredibly rare commodity called "COMMON-SENSE"

I've heard some stupid things at work,

i)went from my usual head-down-get-on-with-it self to incredulous fury in 0.0006 seconds recently when my supervisor said

"Jews control Hollywood and have made the Nazis look worse than they were, and there aren't any WW2 films where Germans aren't Nazis"

(shock on his face and the only other person in the office at the time was priceless)

ii)spent 20 minutes trying to explain to my boss that Al Murray (as the Pub Landlord) was ripping the piss out of his views, not agreeing with them,

iii)large South Asian population in the town I work in so predictable bulleffluent about p**** everywhere, usually go for the simple "how do you know where they're from, did you ask them?"

Lifer the Jews may well control Hollywood just like Gay people control the media, its just peoples assumptions, just because theyre popuular and well paid, you see very few poor jews and even fewer poor gay people, its all down to jealousy and lack of understanding.

Sometimes people see racism where its not,ask your foreign freinds if theyre offended if you have any foreign freinds.

+1 on what phil said.

I used to work with a Turkish girl who was extremley racist towards Greeks. I understood it was down to those countries differences. It was considered by her to be a normal part of Turkish life to hold a racist manifesto towards Greeks. I don't fully understand those countries differences, and nothing I could do would change her deep rooted opinions. I made it clear I wouldn't join in any racism and if we worked alongside each other to keep her beef to herself.

My White mate is dating a black girl, he often gets racist comments but when he stands up and people see his 6'4 bodybuilders frame the comments usualy stop quick.

My mum's side of the family is racist to its core- you won't change their views and it's not really worth trying IME.

Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes. They wrote a song about it I think.

[i]So thank **** for the Klux Ku Klan eh ?[/i]

That's not what I meant, but I suspect you know that.

[i]Racist jokes get passed around all the time ,it doesn't make you racist if you laugh does it?.Do you laugh at jokes about the Irishman Englishman and Scotsman?[/i]

Given they are all essentially the same race I don't see how the jokes can be racist?

Personally I enjoy jokes about the Scots, and tell plenty myself, and I am one. I'm quite happy to play along with the drunken skinflint stereotype.

That's not what I meant, but I suspect you know that.

So bearing in mind that the title of this thread is [b]"Dealing with racism"[/b] what [i]exactly[/i] did you mean by this :

[i]"People are entitled to their own views. I've got loads of friends who I disagree with on lots of things, but generally speaking we accept the other's point of view. If everyone thought/spoke/acted the same way the world would be a duller place."[/i]

As the particular "view" we are discussing here is racism, you are very clearly suggesting to the OP that "the world would be a duller place" if some people didn't have racist views.

Otherwise I can't see the point of your comment.

I meant that if the price we have to pay for freedom of thought/speech is the KKK (and I do agree they are knuckle dragging morons) then it's a price worth paying.

And the point of my other comment is that the world would indeed be a duller place if we all thought the same way, or acted the same way, or had the same culture, or the same likes and dislikes.

My point isn't about racism per se, it's about tolerance, and how true tolerance means accepting not everyone thinks the same way (and yes I do accet the irony in that statement, in that people like the KKK and the BNP are amongst the least tolerant around).

yes odd you seem to tolerate diversity of opinion but also to let people dislike diversity of people.
The world would be a fairer and nicer place if people were not racist- it would not be duller unless you think the BNP,Combat 18,NF and EDL bring a bit of joy to the world with their colourful [see what I did there] opinions on race.

EDIT: Written before reading your post above.

ow true tolerance means accepting not everyone thinks the same way

is racism just a british thing?

is racism just a british thing?

Definitely not!

is racism just a british thing?

i think they might have had a slight problem with it in germany once, but i'm not sure.

Just yorkshire iirc

is racism just a british thing?

Typical racist comment.

ernie, you sussed me.
i am the most racist biggoted person i know........just ask on here.
they will all agree wth me........ 😀

unfortunately junkyard you can't be a tolerant society with a freedom of speech and then exclude certain groups because of their loathsome views.
I used to part of the ANL and AFA and come to realise that by meeting intolerance and bigotry with further intolerance and violent clashes we were no better than the thugs we were combating.

Reasoned debate and argument is the only way forward but there will always be an element of human nature that seeks to differentiate along tribal lines, whether that be race, religion, football team, sub culture etc..

you cannot stop hatred and bigotry by banning it in a public forum it has to bee seen as the nasty filth it is.

project - Member

Lifer the Jews may well control Hollywood just like Gay people control the media, its just peoples assumptions, just because theyre popuular and well paid, you see very few poor jews and even fewer poor gay people, its all down to jealousy and lack of understanding.

Sometimes people see racism where its not,ask your foreign freinds if theyre offended if you have any foreign freinds.

I think there's a point in there someone but damned if I know what it is.

nasty filth to one is the opposite to another.

Having seen it from many viewpoints you need to realise it's not going to go away. Ever.

It's a part of life and you need to deal with it.

Fortunately in the UK we are quite sheltered from it all. But we are tiny in the big old bad word...

unfortunately junkyard you can't be a tolerant society with a freedom of speech and then exclude certain groups because of their loathsome views.

Yes but you can and should challenge those views.

zedsdead..........nail on the head. 8)

you can't be a tolerant society with a freedom of speech and then exclude certain groups because of their loathsome views.

[i]You are right but we dont need to tolerate the intolerable nor tolerate those who are intolerant [/i]

I'm afraid we do need to tolerate it. By all means argue against what you don't agree with, but don't seek to ban viewpoints just because you dislike them.

kennyp - Member
...I enjoy jokes about the Scots, and tell plenty myself, and I am one. I'm quite happy to play along with the drunken skinflint stereotype.

Me too, especially when it's my round... 🙂

see post above yours - I agree re freedom of speech. I wont tolerate it in the sense I wont let it go unchallenged - see my first post re this- I have not mentioned banning

being the butt of your own jokes is one thing other people making your race /nationality the butt of them is another thing all together.
It is some way from thses sort of jokes to BNP memebership but every journey begins with the smallest step

[i]being the butt of your own jokes is one thing other people making your race /nationality the butt of them is another thing all together.
[/i]

Not sure totally I agree. I think it's more down to whether the joke is funny, or is being told just to be nasty about someone. A classic example is the one about ****stan being kicked out the World Cup because every time they got a corner they opened a shop. I've heard that joke described as "shocking" and "utterly racist" but to my mind it's just harmless humour. Equally, I'm quite content for non-Scots to make jokes about the Scots. Doesn't bother me one bit.

[i]It is some way from thses sort of jokes to BNP memebership but every journey begins with the smallest step[/i]

That's true, but if you think about it the reverse is also true. Say you outlaw the BNP, then by the "first step" argument you also end up outlawing jokes such as the one above.

Can I just say this thread is one of the reasons I love the STW forum? Many opportunities to descend into chaos, but didn't. Reading through posts above I genuinely found some further insight and perspectives I hadn't though of.

They believe that 100% of the people born in the part of the country are bad people. Pretty much her words. How else am I meant to assess that?

[i]My dad was a Japanese POW, in Changi, Singapore, a dreadful place to be incarcerated. He had a couple of books written about it, which I read, and he took me to see 'Bridge On The River Kwai', but he never spoke of his experiences to me, (he died when I was eleven), he left me to make my own mind up, and he even bought Japanese made binoculars.[/i]

It takes one hell of a guy to respond to something like that in the way he did. You must be very proud of him.

Some of my best friends are racists, but I wouldn't let my sister marry one!

It takes one hell of a guy to respond to something like that in the way he did. You must be very proud of him.

countzero's description and also the possibility raised by the ethnic cleansing that we've seen in Eastern Europe is something I struggle with. If acts like these were perpetrated on my family in the name of race, I can see that I might respond in hatred of the race that had done it. I'd like to think that I could still see that races are not inherently evil, but there are evil people in any race but I couldn't guarantee it.

****stan being kicked out the World Cup because every time they got a corner they opened a shop.

One problem with this joke is that it is just wrong, most Asian owned corner shops are owned by Gujaratis, from India. The joke is racist because it treats ****stanis and Gujaratis as 'all the same'.

Whilst I have every sympathy for those who were brutalised by the Japanese in South East Asia, let us not forget that this was merely one Imperial army fight to reinstate the colonial power which had been and would continue to be as brutal to the local population