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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/11/david-cameron-letter-cuts-oxfordshire?CMP=fb_gu
Says it all really. He doesnt have a clue what he/they're doing.
Saw that earlier today!
They live in a different world.
There was another article talking about Osborne and the Tax Credits cuts he proposed. For someone with his wealth, it was mooted that a drop of £2k income is of little concern and that he had no conception of the impact it would make on most people. It is a fair argument.
As far as tax credit cuts are concerned, I think they are working on the ski slope principle. Propose the worst possible scenario, then everyone will be happy when your revised, soft and cuddly version is implemented. The proles won't know that this is what you wanted all along.
Sorry to digress and all that....!
Very depressing, the damage to public health, education and those at the bottom will have long lasting consequences
What the Tories are doing, in my eyes at least, is getting the really unpopular policies out of the way early in their term. What that means is that in 4.5 years at the next election either the populous will have forgotten or the changes will have been given time to work. Either way, even if you don't agree with what he/they are doing, you can see that from a political perspective the timing is spot on.
Still, Cameron is going to have an interesting time being questioned on this!
Wow!
Depressing.
I wonder if he'll write again?
I saw Cy tweeted that earlier, it's pretty astonishing. I guess you just get so used to lying to everyone else you don't even realise when you're lying to yourself.
How much more of this kind of nonsense before one of the other pretenders to No 10 make a bid for leader of the Tories?
An other tory would just be doing the same tbh as they like to cut but fail to realise that eventually even services they consider essential will be cut
Libraries are in real danger nationwide as well as they are not front line services either.
Of course they are doing the double helping of shit first but they are also making sure it is the local council who do it [ and the police ] rather than them
That said it is what the people voted for and in 5 years time we will see if they like the results
For someone with his wealth, it was mooted that a drop of £2k income is of little concern and that he had no conception of the impact it would make on most people. It is a fair argument.
One of the reasons why they ought to be trying to get by on the average wage as most of them are insulated from the realities the majority of the population face. They can no more know or care than we can give advice on how to run a stately home.
He's doingvthe right thing byvtrying to shift the blame for loss of services onto councils not the Tories cut. They are not as stupid ascI certainly would like to hope they are.
Oh look the nhs is shit now, lets scrap it. Oh look all schools are shit its because teachers are ****s cut their pension.
Perfectly legitimate question to ask of the council.
Tax credits have morphed from a good idea to a £30n unaffordable monster. They are used by employers to subsidise low wages. As per the migrant stats recently, 40% of foreign workers are claiming an average of £6k pa of in work benefits. They take low paid jobs whilst the state makes top the difference and we pay unemployment benefits to those who won't travel for work. It's madness.
The welfare budget cuts need not impact the most vulnerable. If you are cutting a budget from £100bn to £70bn over 5 years surely the £70bn is spent on the most vulnerable ?
JY who really goes to the Library these days ? Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these days.
JY who really goes to the Library these days ?
My son goes pretty much every week.
Poor people mainly to access the internet to look for work oh and, one would assume, those who like reading
40% of foreign workers are claiming an average of £6k pa of in work benefits.
What about the other 60%?
The welfare budget cuts need not impact the most vulnerable.
Are you now saying welfare is not spent on the most vulnerable and that we can provide the same level of service with less money?
If you are cutting a budget from £100bn to £70bn over 5 years surely the £70bn is spent on the most vulnerable ?
And again all welfare is spent on the poorest and the most vulnerable in our society.
JY who really goes to the Library these days ? Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these days.
Is nothing sacred and everything is just valuable real estate?
Libraries have diversified into other things
FWIW go into any library and try and book a computer they are always full as poor folk cannot afford computers or the internet
As i said wealth can insulate people from the harsh realities of life for the poor and needy and obviously the less we spend the less we can do to help them.
[quote=jambalaya ]Tax credits have morphed from a good idea to a £30n unaffordable monster. They are used by employers to subsidise low wages.Yep. Time the government increased the mandatory minimum wage to sort that out.
Is nothing sacred and everything is just valuable real estate?
I think we all know the answer to that, under this government?
JY who really goes to the Library these days ?
We went today and got a load of books so the kids could complete their reading challenges, the Mrs also picked up a couple or crime thrillers she'd not read before. Kraaazy eh!
Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these days.
So valuable that a good deal of retail properties are currently empty?
Putting aside the politics and the practical need for cuts, that article reveals an extraordinary set of numbers that simply cannot be explained. How can any MP be so out of touch with his/her local authority's financial situation? There is no excuse for getting it that wrong, and writing this down in a letter that can be seen by your constituents is a rather great way to demonstrate this.
That this MP represents a local aithority arguably less damaged by budget cuts than others in the Northern Powerhouse, and that he happens also to be the prime minister, also a man with a usually very impressive command of numbers and ability to reel off (usually partly true!) statistics off the top of his head in interviews and at the dispatch box, makes this all the more ridiculous.
JY who really goes to the Library these days ?
My son goes pretty much every week.
My children go once a week or so too.
As per the migrant stats recently, 40% of foreign workers are claiming an average of £6k pa of in work benefits
That will be the ones that have been shown to be statistically dodgy. One occupant of a migrant house claims some benefit and suddenly the all 5 or however many are in the house are deemed to be claimants.[url= http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14022141.Analysis_for_David_Cameron_s_migrant_benefit_claim_has__limitations_/ ](Source 1)[/url] [url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-cameron-should-ashamed-dodgy-6803849 ](Source 2)[/url]
Remember he's from Marketing and PR and has no concept of how to do maths properly, details are not 'his thing' by training.
How can any MP be so out of touch with his/her local authority's financial situation?
a) He's a millionaire
b) He doesn't really give a shit
Yeah we take the kids to the library on a Saturday, its pretty busy !
Janbys comments about libraries nicely illustrate the ignorance of some, including our PM of how important local libraries are to many at the bottom
There's always a queue for the computers and our library puts on a lot of stuff for parents and babies in the week too.
The cuts to council social care, children's services, sports facilities etc are shortsighted in the extreme, save; money now, but pay more to pick up the pieces later, destroy lives on the way
Perfectly legitimate question to ask of the council.Tax credits have morphed from a good idea to a £30n unaffordable monster. They are used by employers to subsidise low wages. As per the migrant stats recently, 40% of foreign workers are claiming an average of £6k pa of in work benefits. They take low paid jobs whilst the state makes top the difference and we pay unemployment benefits to those who won't travel for work. It's madness.
The welfare budget cuts need not impact the most vulnerable. If you are cutting a budget from £100bn to £70bn over 5 years surely the £70bn is spent on the most vulnerable ?
JY who really goes to the Library these days ? Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these days.
Oh that has to be on purpose....someone tell me Jambayla is the local wag who everyone knows is joking?
We (cumulatively) voted in the muppets. We reap what we sow.
oor people mainly to access the internet to look for work oh and, one would assume, those who like reading
Hang Junky, I'm sure in the grammar school thread you said that the working class don't go to the library.
Re the selling off of public building and spaces. It tendsnto be these public building as spaces that make a town or city. Without them you end up with a dull commercial and or Disney commodified area. Just look at the average us town (not the headlining by, dc cities).
You also can't plug a funding deficit with one off capex sales, as you can't resell the same building each year.
we pay unemployment benefits to those who won't travel for work
Is unwillingness to travel a big cause of unemployment?
Everyone unemployed has to travel up to 90 minutes [ generally means public transport] from their location for employment.
I am not sure what the point was that he meant to make but I doubt it was what he said. I assume it was some sort of Tebbit on your bike type comment but I am really not certain.
Hang Junky, I'm sure in the grammar school thread you said that the working class don't go to the library.
Are the unemployed working class or just the underbelly?
That said [ and I did check] I did indeed
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/new-grammar-schools-thoughts/page/3#post-7243649
Either good memory or top stalking. Either way a fair point
EDIT: I said it to you[just checked that] so good memory rather than stalking I assume
Julian - it is extraordinary true, as is the fact that folk believe these are people who should have more control of the key levers of the UK economy. Truly frightening concept that one.
Of course in the froth of anti-austerity (no really) people conveniently forget the key instrument of economic policy that is being pursued here, in the U.S., is not cuts but theft of money from the prudent and indirectly from everyone. Of course we dress this theft up in fancy jargon (QE/ financial repression) to ensure that people don't understand what is going on. In US alone the government has stolen $470bn off savers, pensions funds etc and we are doing the same here.
Does anyone shed a tear for those victims? They should do......
jambalaya » Tax credits have morphed from a good idea to a £30n unaffordable monster. They are used by employers to subsidise low wages.
Yep. Time the government increased the mandatory minimum wage to sort that out.
So many issues could be dealt with by that. And a policy for decent social housing.
THM the "victims" of the "theft" really ought to report it to the police 😕
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3f9cc4f2-dec0-11e4-b9ec-00144feab7de.html
No mention of theft anywhere- basically we have low interest rates . WHy not just say that ?
is pretty much spot on.
It's madness.
Quite possibly, but you simply cannot just pull the plug when people depend on it.
@kona if people are prepare to travel halfway across Europe for a job it's not too much expect to hope unemployed Brits might do the same.
JY I'd guess the other 60% don't claim Tax Credits, I'd also wager a very significant portion of that 60% don't pay sufficient tax to cover the cost of healthcare, edication etc. Singaporean immigration is very targeted and based on how much tax you'll pay. There is a happy ground in the middle.
@bing just trying to contribute to the debate
@scot as far as I'm aware the cuts are to be phased in at least in part and the minimum wage is being increased as is the tax free allowance. We don't really know the details yet, we have to wait for the spending review.
Cameron is right to ask, why aren't the council cutting "back office" support rather than services ? I'll give you a theory, let's keep the "jobs for the boys" and cut the services most likely to generate headlines and we'll blame the government for the fallout. There's no doubt these are difficult decisions but Cameron is right to ask the question
As rightly pointed out above this was the mandate the Tories where given and it's worth noting the Labour Party stood on a similar deficit reduction programme it's just people didn't believe they'd execute it.
Everyone unemployed has to travel up to 90 minutes [ generally means public transport] from their location for employment.
Woah there Tiger. Have the Tories got any idea how stupid that policy actually is? In my time I have had to commute a 90 minute journey £30/day, a 55 minute journey £22/day and a 40 minute journey £15/day. If I had been on minimum wage I could not have afforded to do that.
JY I'd guess the
No offence but I would rather deal with the facts than your guess.
I'll give you a theory, let's keep the "jobs for the boys" and cut the services most likely to generate headlines and we'll blame the government for the fallout.
So your argument is that a Tory has come up with this idea in his the PM's area 😯 May I ask exactly why you think he has decided this is a good idea? Its seems an odd response for a Tory to try and shame the Tory PM in his area what exactly motivated him to do this?
Do you know he replied - its in the link and he explained how many cuts they have done, what the saving is and why there is no more left to be cut. The evidence does not really support your theory.
PLease actually read the link and counter what the head of Oxford said rather than guess.
JY who really goes to the Library these days ? Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these days.
My kids go every week or two and return with a big bag of books, and and I think it's been one of the most important parts of their education. There's something special about being able to physically browse through piles of colourful books of all different sorts that makes the online experience seen distinctly thin by comparison.
I remember the excitement of going to the library each week and wondering what new books I was going to find, and I see my kids having the same fun. That's helping me rediscover the habit of reading for pleasure that I lost as an adult.
Libraries are important, and it's a sad day when we lose that service.
p.s. my local council library does online eBook loans as well!
jambalaya - MemberCameron is right to ask, why aren't the council cutting "back office" support rather than services ?
Did you consider actually reading the letters, at any point? Cameron is wrong to ask "why aren't you cutting back office support" because the council is cutting back office support.
FFS why all the whingeing about the Tories? They won a free and fair election only a couple of months ago and are obviously what the public wanted.
FFS why all the whingeing about the Tories? They won a free and fair election only a couple of months ago and are obviously what the public wanted.
Because they won it with a pack of lies?
[quote=nick1962 opined]FFS why all the whingeing about the Tories? They won a free and fair election only a couple of months ago and are obviously what the public wanted.
1. Its a tory PM whinging about a tory council whose Chief executive then whinges about the Tories
2. We are still allowed to discuss govt policy even though they won the election.
[i]Because they won it with a pack of lies? [/i]
Eh? Pretty standard really:
1 Get elected by appealing to enough vote for you, either positively (want) or negatively (don't want others).
2 Then do whatever it is you intended/wanted to do.
3 In 5 years, go back to 1.
And if anyone on here is complaining about what they are doing, it only counts if you voted for someone else.
Because they won it with a pack of lies?
Didn't they mostly win because their opposition was split between Labour, Lib-dem, Greens and UKIP.
i.e. the electorate hoped that if only they wished hard enough, they would get proportional representation.
Oh that has to be on purpose....someone tell me Jambayla is the local wag who everyone knows is joking?
Oh if only.
He has all the political acumen of:
You also can't plug a funding deficit with one off capex sales, as you can't resell the same building each year.
But you can save the cost of librarian salaries and other running costs every year. So in part you can plug a funding deficit that way. Not that closing libraries is a good thing but it isn't a one off saving either.
Didn't they mostly win because their opposition was split between Labour, Lib-dem, Greens and UKIP.i.e. the electorate hoped that if only they wished hard enough, they would get proportional representation.
Nope. They got more votes and seats than any other party. You do know how the UK election system works don't you! As for PR the public rejected a sort of PR system in a referendum within the last 5 years or so.
Nope. They got more votes and seats than any other party. You do know how the UK election system works don't you!
His pointvstands though because if everyone else had voted UKIP the Tories wouldnt have won. Tories won with a small majority against a disjointed labour (whi are now thoroughly dislocated!).
Jambalaya - my kids go to the library at least once a week. It's central to their development and a real pleasure going with them. It's also a key part of developing the community.
You do know how the UK election system works don't you!
Yes a party that does not get a majority of the votes wins then claims a mandate from the people . You do see why some object to this claim ? Most people dont want them to do what they are claiming they have the peoples mandate to do.
They did reject a sort of PR but what would they do if offered PR?As for PR the public rejected a sort of PR system in a referendum within the last 5 years or so.
They did reject a sort of PR but what would they do if offered PR?
Probably whatever the Daily Mail tells them to do....
They won a free and fair election only a couple of months ago and are obviously what the public wanted
They're not what the 76% of the electorate who didn’t vote for them wanted
And if anyone on here is complaining about what they are doing, it only counts if you voted for someone else.
Hardly! Cameron gave an explicit promise not to cut tax credits prior to the election...
[i]Hardly! Cameron gave an explicit promise not to cut tax credits prior to the election... [/i]
Did he? I CBA to read it, but please point out which page it was said as I kinda assumed they'd won based on a cutting welfare 'platform'. Could be wrong, happy to be shown.
https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto
The council letter states "the council tax referendum threshold of 1.99% has meant that we have been unable to keep pace with our challenges by using local revenue raising powers - if we had been permitted to make the planned modest increase of 3-3.75% over the decade we would be facing 50 million less of required savings"
Surely this is disingenuous, they could have put council tax up if they had wanted to, but were too afraid of democracy to hold a referendum.
Did he? I CBA to read it, but please point out which page it was said as I kinda assumed they'd won based on a cutting welfare 'platform'. Could be wrong, happy to be shown.
You don't have to read the manifesto he was interviewed several times b4 the election saying he w wouldn't, someone will be along with a YouTube clip in a sec..
I see the story has made it to the BBC. although somewhat toned down in its criticism,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34788129
Another bonus of all the threats of cuts to the BBC has been their critical attitude toward the government, its a Tory dream come true, the poor get hammered and the BBC are nicely compliant about it all.
Did he? I CBA to read it, but please point out which page it was said as I kinda assumed they'd won based on a cutting welfare 'platform'. Could be wrong, happy to be shown.
as noted he never said where they were coming form but he did say not from tax credits and then did it
They then claim a mandate to do the thing the said they would not do based on most people not voting for them
God love democracy eh
There are some really interesting poinst in that letter from the Oxfordshire council:
1) the NHS is being rewarded for failure.
2) Increased population growth putting a strain on finances.
3) Why are more kids moving into social carer?
4) Finally government finances aren't dynamic enough to cope with increasing investment into areas that are doing well.
FFS why all the whingeing about the Tories? They won a free and fair election only a couple of months ago and are obviously what the public wanted
Because this isn't North Korea.
In "a fair and free" democracy you are allowed to discuss and criticise the government and their policies - [i]even[/i] if you voted for them.
(which most of us didn't)
Oh and yeah, jambalaya, we regularly use the local library too.
Pretty useful place when you have two kids learning to read.
I hope those who question the validity of libraries do not then criticise sections of the public for not achieving enough..books and libraries are core elements to education - cut libraries and you limit the potential for mass education..the hypocrisy of some of the policies is ridiculous...
1) the NHS is being rewarded for failure.
The way I read it the failure was clearly in the funding system, not the NHS.
He says the NHS are lumbered with patients costing £4500 a week in hospital beds, who could and should be discharged to Social Services but they don't the budget for that.
So instead the NHS overspends its budget.
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8337702
b r - I'm sure you seen this video of Cameron on QT regards not cutting tax credits....
i believe that housing benefit is currently £25Billion per year. The government want to clamp down on tax credits, but where is the effort on HB? Or maybe it is that HB is actually another tax payer subsidy to the rich?
Did he? I CBA to read it, but please point out which page it was said as I kinda assumed they'd won based on a cutting welfare 'platform'. Could be wrong, happy to be shown.
Watch this, he said it live on air a few weeks before the election when grilled on where the cuts would be.
FFS why all the whingeing about the Tories? They won a free and fair election only a couple of months ago and are obviously what the public wanted
They won with 27% of the electorate supporting them, even looking at voters they still failed to get anywhere near 50% support. They only have a mandate because the UK electoral system is not fit for purpose. Look at Scotland and it is even worse, SNP have virtually every scottish MP and yet their share of the vote is nothing like that commanding.
jambalaya - Member
JY I'd guess the other 60% don't claim Tax Credits, I'd also wager a very significant portion of that 60% don't pay sufficient tax to cover the cost of healthcare, edication etc. Singaporean immigration is very targeted and based on how much tax you'll pay. There is a happy ground in the middle.
IPPR’s analysis suggests that the NAFI for migrants in 1999-2000 was 1.06, higher than the UK-born value (1.01). For 2003-2004, the difference between migrants and the UK-born increased; the NAFI for migrants was 0.99 compared to 0.88 for the UK-born. The fact that the NAFI was less than one suggests that in 2003-2004 the net fiscal contribution of migrants was negative, but that it was “less negative” than that of the UK-born individuals.
From [url= http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk ]First useful looking Google result[/url]
Edit - Of course don't let actual evidence or studies get in the way of your guesswork.
mrmo - its not in the politicians interest to deal with housing benefit. Many of them (one quarter of Tories) are landlords and rely on housing benefit to pay their tenants rents...oh hang on, does that mean Tories are benefiting from the welfare state? Surely not...oh hang on, didn't they too use all the expenses (taking from the state again) to supplement their wages? Hypocrites...
Watch this, he said it live on air a few weeks before the election when grilled on where the cuts would be
Let's be totally accurate:
[i]"Child tax credit we increased by £450.... Not going to fall"[/i]
Which is true isn't it? The amount hasn't fallen, it's still the same, they've merely changed the figure where it begins to taper off.
You can criticise them for that, you can disagree with it, but you have to be robust and accurate in that criticism, and he never said that they wouldn't change any other factors of the tax credits system that might reduce the overall bill.
mrmo - its not in the politicians interest to deal with housing benefit
Worse than that, they're guaranteeing spending on it will rise by forcing House Associations to sell off their housings stock at a loss as part of Help to Buy, reducing social housing. But as Landlords, they'll actually benefit from this as they'll be more social tenants paying their mortgages.
Don't know about you Guys. I'd settle for the Canadian government though 😉
BR
JeZ
You can criticise them for that, you can disagree with it, but you have to be robust and accurate in that criticism, and he never said that they wouldn't change any other factors of the tax credits system that might reduce the overall bill.
I'd say that defence is roughly the same as saying "Ah but I had my fingers crossed" or "I didn't say Simon Says".
David Dumbledore's question was pretty clear.
The fact that Cameron gave an answer that just [i]appeared[/i] clear and definitive, but actually wasn't, doesn't really excuse it.
JY who really goes to the Library these days ? Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these days.
It's a US cartoon, but the message is the same:
[img] 
[/img]
I'd say that defence is roughly the same as saying "Ah but I had my fingers crossed" or "I didn't say Simon Says".
😀
JY who really goes to the Library these days ? Libraries occupy expensive and valuable property in town centres and sadly are yesterdays news, the world including publishing is increasingly online these day
Ahh, the old "this is not something I use so lets get rid" argument.
I don't claim a pension now so lets get rid of them. They seem to get the biggest cut of welfare.
Libraries. So cut something else then but the tough choice is what, it's a local council / authority level decision. That was the point of Cameron's letter. Our welfare budget is huge, the cuts in Tax Credits are £4.4bn over a £30bn annual spend, even after the cuts they will cost £25.6bn vs a bill of just £5bn before Labour extended them and saw the total balloon (as per @ninfans chart from the other thread).
What we are seeing now is the real cost of Labour's mismanagement of the economy, it's tough and painful to reign in excessive spending. Much more difficult than just writing cheques.
People won't vote for higher taxes, Labour's position is always that money will be raised from "someone else", eg the "rich" (ie not Labour voters) or from companies (without recognising they are simply a collection of employees).
There was a quote earlier that someone like Cameron can afford a £2k tax ride more than a person on tax credit can afford a £2k cut, yes of course that's true. But taxes on "the rich" are substantially higher than they where in 2007 and in any case increasing taxes on the likes of Mr Cameron won't come close to the £4.4bn of cuts being sought in Tax Credits.
There is a clamour for local representation and decision making and here we have it, local councils deciding how to cut spending. There are choices to be made, if you don't want to cut X then you'll have to cut Y instead.
Any chance we can cut whatever cable allows you to type this bollocks all the time?
What we are seeing now is the real cost of Labour's mismanagement of the economy
That would be the same mismanagement which had the largest budget surplus of any government in the last 40 years? (Admitedly in their 1st term, but still much larger than [b]ANY[/b] Tory Government ever.)
it's tough and painful to reign in excessive spending
Also, completely unnecessary as the current interest on the national debt (as a % of GDP) is quite modest by recent standards.
So tempted to call out some of the utter nonsense up there ^^^^^ but it's pointless arguing with someone so blinkered.
I don't claim a pension now so lets get rid of them. They seem to get the biggest cut of welfare.
Aye there's a plan - sorted.
the largest budget surplus of any government in the last 40 years?
Probably not the best defence when you claim to have ended boom and bust...
What we are seeing now is the real cost of Labour's mismanagement of the economy
I can't believe we bailed Labour out, they told us it was the banks!
Not sure why anyone would want to defend any political party but I'll leave you to it until your medication kicks in 🙄
Probably not the best defence when you claim to have ended boom and bust...
Still ironic that the 'utterly inept' profligate spending Labour chancellors did better at something which the 'highly competent' frugal Tory chancellors are supposed to be very good at.
[img] 
[/img]
To me, it looks like the Tories have only run a budget surplus for two years (since 1979), whereas Labour did for four years (and a much bigger surplus) but then what do I know using real data to form my opinions....
Any chance we can cut whatever cable allows you to type this bollocks all the time?
+1
i've come to conclusion he's a moron