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I know and the eyes are very sore - but its not sand its from staring at real facts not made up ones! There is no evidence to support any of the BS arguments on immigration. The "fact" that the trends that you identify exist are all reasons why this debate should not be allowed to descend into the xenophobic gutter beloved of Brexiteers.
"Race" is a sorry and shameful excuse for not addressing the real reasons behind the challenges that we and other economies face. We should all know better.
As an aside my eyes are also open to the terrible humanitarian disaster that is Syria and my heart is saddened by our woeful reaction to it, let alone our responsibilities.
Steady on, that sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory
For clod's sake, that was a t-i-cheek comment!!
"Open your eyes and look around the UK and round the rest of Europe. Look what's happenjng in Holland, France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia."
Racism and far-right extremism (not to mention anti-Semitism, Jamba...) is massively on the rise across Europe, fuelled by right-wing ideology which ultimately seeks to divide people into more easily controllable groups, rather than have them united and with significant political power with which they could actively resist/overthrow said right-wing governments. It's the insidious spreading of fear, through media outlets, that helps facilitate the divide and rule ideology of the right. That's what's [i]actually[/i] happening in Europe.
It is not in the interests of the ruling elites, to counter this, as their power is totally reliant on a submissive, compliant and easily coerced labour force, who lack the political, economic and ideological power/will to do anything but obey.
The whole immigration thing is a smokescreen. Jamba; you may think your eyes are wide open, but you still can't see through the smoke.
After what selection process?
hands up if you've been PM?
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[url= https://www.carlyle.com/news-room/news-release-archive/john-major-appointed-european-chairman-carlyle-group ]John Major Appointed European Chairman of The Carlyle Group[/url]
But the defence select committee today said it was Cameron's fault for the rise of IS and therefore this 'swarm' of refugees and that has the right wingers across Europe so scared?
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A small consolation for Cameron is that Corbyn walked allover May today at PMQs
he must have taken a bit of solace from that as the last vestiges of his political reputation were dismantled by the select committee
@clod my point has always been (4 years I have been on about it now) that if the mainstream parties will not confront the issue they leave the door wide open for others and that carries a significant risk. Nowhere else in the world do you have freedom of movement, it's a stupid idea. Being against a stupid idea doesn't make you xenophobic, racist or a biggot. The countries with the greatest immigration have controlled systems, eg Australia, Singapore, US, Canada etc
@kimbers I watched PMQ as usual, Corbyn was indeed less terrible than usual but still very much second best to May. She also gave the SNP a battering pointing out that during the Referendum they had no credible plan on how they would stay in the EU in the event of a Yes.
So Jamby, what do you think is the root cause of scenes like this;
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this;
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and this?:
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it's a stupid idea.
On the contrary, the facts tell us v clearly that it is a good idea that brings positive benefits to the UK.
Being against a stupid idea doesn't make you xenophobic, racist or a biggot.
It clearly leaves one open to those accusations in the absence of any factual evidence that points to the contrary. None was evident during the Brexit debacle, hence the most obvious conclusion is.....
If any BSer can point to real evidence to support the idea that immigration has had a negative impact on the UK economy then I will change my opinion. Until then....
She also gave the SNP a battering pointing out that during the Referendum they had no credible plan on how they would stay in the EU in the event of a Yes.
imagine a bunch of secessionists having no plan (or a any sort of clue about reality) post referendum!! 😆
Well @jivehoney... Theresa May probably doesn't care for those images...in her last role she was responsible for the bus that drove around London with a huge sign telling immigrants to go home...clearly not a very nice lady.
"The countries with the greatest immigration have controlled systems, eg Australia, Singapore, US, Canada etc"
Well, if you're droning on about 'uncontrolled immigration', then you really shouldn't be mentioning Australia, Canada and the USA.... 🙄
"Nowhere else in the world do you have freedom of movement, it's a stupid idea."
Explain why, please.
In terms of immigration in terms of percentages of national populations, The USA, Canada and Australia are some way down the list, which is topped by the Vatican City, Andorra and Qatar. If you want to argue about economic impact of immigration, the top 10 also includes the UAE, Monaco, Kuwait, Singapore and Hong Kong. Interestingly, those are all rather wealthy nations with very high per capita GDP. Now we can use statistics and figures to argue anything, and it's interesting to note that Palestine has one of the highest percentages of 'immigrants' too, make of that what you will. And we could also argue that several nations in the top 10 have appalling human rights records, and massive economic disparity. But basically, facts show that immigration is not something that generally has a negative economic effect. Ergo, it is a political and ideological smokescreen.
@clod yes the rise in intolerance includes anti-semitism. That's in part why I have wanted the core issue dealt with all this time, to fail to do so leads to a darker place all round. As it stands the only way to deal with it is to vote FN etc. Now in the run up to the French elections Hollande is finally dealing with Calais and dismantling the camp completely and redistributiong the people around the whole country. Whether this will be enough to stop FN winning in the North I doubt, its too little too late and he will be eliminated in the Presidential Race. As you know you't can't achieve anything in opposition. The Poles and Hungarians elected firmly right anti immigration/refugee governments
"@clod yes the rise in intolerance includes anti-semitism. That's in part why I have wanted the core issue dealt with all this time, to fail to do so leads to a darker place all round."
Yet you never mention Islamophobia. Why not? Seeing as you claim to be so concerned with xenophobia...
"The Poles and Hungarians elected firmly right anti immigration/refugee governments"
One of the reasons I have heard from many people from those and other Eastern European countries, is that they feel their own nations are too right wing, and that they prefer to live in one that isn't so. For them, freedom of movement is a wonderful thing, as it enables them to live somewhere where the prevailing ideology is preferable. Which kind of flies in the face of your claim that such freedom is a 'stupid idea'. I'm wondering why you're against freedom?
You're very good at ignoring facts when presented to you, and going off on some other tangent. I think quite a few folk would actually like you to answer some of the questions asked of you, such as why do you think freedom of movement is such a 'stupid idea'?
And aren't you now somewhat embarrassed about mentioning the USA, Canada And Australia in the context of 'uncontrolled immigration'?
The Independent on the Libyian Report. "Hindsightism"
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/libya-david-cameron-isis-islamic-state-ultimately-responsible-left-citizens-to-fate-a7294271.html ]linky[/url]
Yet you never mention Islamophobia
Is that jamba wang?
Oh bloody hell, don't encourage him to breed!!
@clod both are equally bad. We have 5% of our citizems who are Muslims who absolutely deserve the same right to live and prosper in peace as any other citizen. Not wanting to accept large number of unvetted refugees many of whom are economic migrants from perfectly safe (if poor) countries isn't Islamaphobic. UAE, Saudi etc are taking zero refugees.
What tangent am I going off on ? Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea and one no one else has copied. You can achieve the economic and social benefits of migration with a visa system with preferential treatment given to those from within the EU if you wish.
Why would I be embarrased to me tion the success of US, Canadian and Australian immigration systems ? My family where £10 poms in '68
This may seem a touch off topic, but it's wholly relevant to the refugee migration problems the world is facing at the moment... the eagle eyed among you will note Prince Bandar makes an appearance at 0:37 ([url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0241144418/ref=olp_product_details/256-4448191-9424423?_encoding=UTF8&me= ]he's also one of the 1st characters mentioned in the book[/url])
This ties in to not only the conflicts in Libya and Syria which are part of David Cameron's legacy, but also the debates currently raging on Britain supplying arms to Saudi Arabia for the conflict in Yemen.
What action the current unelected Prime Minister of Her Majesty's Government takes remains to be seen.
"@clod both are equally bad. "
Yet I've never seen you condemn it on here, in the same way you tried to condemn the Labour party/Corbyn over the ridiculous and now proven to be completely unfounded anti-Semitism allegations. I've never seen you condemn the vicious, racist Islamophobic tory campaign against Sadiq Khan (whom you mentioned yesterday in the London thread, for why I still have no idea) during the London mayoral election campaign. I don't see you condemning the recent Islamophobia in France, regarding the farcical 'burkini' debacle. Etc.
"Not wanting to accept large number of unvetted refugees many of whom are economic migrants from perfectly safe (if poor) countries isn't Islamaphobic."
I hadn't even mentioned refugees, I thought we were talking about Europe? And the UK admits refugees from many non-Muslim countries, what has their faith/culture got to do with anything? And the UK doesn't accept 'large numbers' of 'unvetted' refugees anyway. So not wanting to accept them is an absolute nonsense. Germany took in more refugees from syria in one weekend, than the UK has agreed to take in in FIVE YEARS. Germany hasn't actually collapsed as a nation.
"Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea"
But why, exactly? 3 times now I've asked you this.
"Why would I be embarrased to me tion the success of US, Canadian and Australian immigration systems ? My family where £10 poms in '68"
Wow. Just, wow.... 🙄
CBA actually don't worry.
You can't call us immigration a success when the president candidate talks about building a wall to stop immigrants.
And same in Australia.
The points system works only for the people who follow it.
Illegal immigrants will come in in different ways.
You had a perfectly valid point before you edited your post nick... wasn't going to argue with that.
I'm aware.
just; political threads... nothing personal.
You know what Dave wasn't so bad...
I read this yesterday and it got me thinking..
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/theresa-may-grammar-schools-brexit-chaos ]Linky[/url]
despite hating most of what she writes ...got a point?
Fair enough, [url= https://www.reference.com/government-politics/british-prime-minister-elected-3b94ddd990d75edd# ]but for future reference[/url]:
How is the British Prime Minister elected?
The British Prime Minister is not directly elected; instead, he or she is appointed by the Queen
The British Prime Minister election first takes place at the local level. Before being elected Prime Minister, the individual must secure a seat in the Parliament. To become a Member of Parliament, the candidate must secure more votes than his rival in their locality. If any party secures a majority, the Queen invites its respective leader to become Prime Minister and form government.
US controlled immigration has been a huge success. Their issue is the 11 million illegal immigrants who have either sneaked in or overstayed their visas. As Trump said in Mexico 1 million Mexicans the US legally every day, no issue with that.
Australia has an open transparent immigration policy, it didn't used to be that way but it is now. It's always been economically successful though.
@clod you've not been around here on the policitcal threads that long so perhaps not. As for Goldsmith's campaign questions on some of the people Kahn has interacted with it wasn't great but imo hardly "off the charts" as you seem to imply.
Freedom of movement betwen 28 very economically, socially and politically divergent countries is a stupid idea and one no one else has copied.
Other than the fact that the UK economy has benefitted from this freedom with EU migrants making a greater positive contribution that non-EU migrants
How stupid is that??
Jamba- the recent London Mayoral campaign by Goldsmith was a poisonous, vicious Islamiphobic campaign not really seen as overtly in Britain before. So, yes it was 'off the charts', that's exactly why the Tory leadership were so critical afterwards.
clodhopper - Member
...And aren't you now somewhat embarrassed about mentioning the USA, Canada And Australia in the context of 'uncontrolled immigration'?
Whilst I generally support free movement and immigration as a benefit, the original inhabitants of those countries may have an alter-native view. 🙂
Australian immigration policy - a shining example:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/10/explainer-how-to-read-and-interpret-the-nauru-files
Cameron's greatest achievement?
Making me, an able bodied and formerly apolitical person become an activist for DPAC and Black Triangle.
I'll live to see CaMoron, IDS, McVile Patel and Crabb tried for corporate manslaughter
DrJ that's not immigration policy is it ? That's trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades.
ulysee, strong words representing strong feelings I am sure. However, what is the issue and how can politicans be sued for something companies have done ?
DrJ that's not immigration policy is it ? That's trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades.
Oh, I see.
Thanks for explaining. Or maybe I mean thanks or jamsplaining.
Legal and illegal immigration are both parts of the whole immigration issue, you can't say it is successful when one of them is clearly failing big time.
Two totally seperate things imo. If you followed your own logic chris the EU's mmigration policy would be a total failure in your eyes.
On Libya a piece in the Independent Today on why the UN approved intervention was essential and how it saved many lives.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/libyans-like-me-are-grateful-to-cameron-for-his-air-strikes-and-westerners-crying-imperialism-need-a7307326.html ]Independent[/url]
jambalaya - Member
DrJ that's not immigration policy is it ? That's trying to deal with migrants attempting to arrive illegally, a problem Australia has been dealing with for decades...
Strangely it wasn't a major problem until Australia was involved in an Asian war, and in the aftermath locals who had been on "our" side sought sanctuary with us.
Maybe one way to reduce illegal immigration is to stop fighting wars in other people's countries.
Perhaps if the bombs were loaded with dollar notes instead of explosives, it would keep the people there, and may even be cheaper. 🙂
Illegal immigration by definition can never be a success. So the US and Australia are failing like everyone else on their immigration policies.
Today on why the UN approved intervention was essential and how it saved many lives.
Missing the point entirely!
Cameron (Hague & Fox also) were criticised by the Defence, Select Committee, The Head of The Army and Obama, not for their intervention but for the lack of any follow up plan and for 'becoming distracted' (self harming referendum anyone?) .
That's what cost lives, helped turn Libya into a failed state, gifted IS a huge haul of weapons and willing fighters, even the group that planned the Bataclan attack were founded in Libya
So we're in agreement there have been actual deaths of unemployed, Disabled and homeless people due to the actions and policies of a department of UK Gov PLC using a failed form of benefit denial tick box questionnaire designed by American insurance company Unum who were taken to court in the US and lost their case, for health insurance denial using the same system?
The Clapson family are crowd funding for the legal challenge against IDS for the death of diabetic ex squad die David, who's benefits were cut off meaning the electricity ran out and his insulin wasn't refrigerated, he was found dead with a stack of Cv's written out ready to be sent, £3 quid in his bank and a tin of tuna in the cupboards
Let's not forget his other achievements
400 libraries closed in 6 years is good going
20% of museums closed or partially closed
50% of all youth clubs closed
Who cares that those who benefited the most are from the poor end of society
If their parents had kept an offshore trust fund for them, then maybe they could've gone to Eton too
He did all that on his own - wow, he was superhuman (in an unpleasant kind of way). Amazing.
No he didn't, we're collectively responsible too, for not directly holding our own locally elected representatives to account,and disengaging from politics - not a mistake I'll ever make again
Yes of course we elected our governance so we are responsible too. I mean it has nothing to do with campaign lying, the nature of power in society or hegemony that allows these things to happen.
As someone once said ....only an understanding of hegemony can make you realise how we (UK) can increade it's wealth whilst poverty does not decline relatively, food bank usage rises, health and well-being declines etc.
For example...isn't it strange people calmy walk past food banks in the supermarket. Shouldn't we as society be standing up and saying WTF is going on to allow this...not only the fact such a rich society needs them but also how have we reached a situation whereby we calmy accept them being used instead of getting out and challenging our government over the need to use them. Shocking state of affairs.
Perhaps we could start with an effective opposition - as radical as that sounds. The last one was the Lib Dems and they were partners in a coalition.
I dont know about calmly accepting them. Mrs THM helps at our local food bank. Its up to individuals to do something to help others in ways that they sit fit.
After all a few years ago, some old bird did warn us that "there is no such thing as society" to fall back on. Unfortunately, that warning was misunderstood as a desire/policy and the core message lost. But those who fail to heed the message are likely to be the ones most at risk.
@thm...without wishing to to reject Mrs THM help...I would argue that by 'helping 'out' on food banks one is complicit in their need. Helping out is to accept their usage and is doing nothing towards trying to get rid of their need. Further, all these helpers are creating a situation whereby the government don't feel there is an issue. It's normalising the situation. I would prefer Mrs THM et al spent their time challenging the government to ensure decisons are made that enable society to not have to use them.
As with loddrick's school thread, I prefer practical solutions to hot air. Probably why I am not a fan of the current HM Opposition. I also think that you credit governments with far too much influence/power/ability. Hence my reference back to Fatcha's past warnings.
This idea that governments are the solution is quaint but misguided.
The government is not the solution? Er, so who makes the laws, decisions etc? Is it you? 🙄
For someone who spends all his time on political threads what a daft thing to say...
No they make the laws. Why do you ask?
They react to events, they rarely solve issues. Take responsibility and get on with it is a far better solution.
Oh dear...you really have no idea how society works...no wonder we're in this mess... 🙄
"Whilst I generally support free movement and immigration as a benefit, the original inhabitants of those countries may have an alter-native view."
I was hoping that Jambalaya would work out why his comments might be embarrassing, butI doubt he possesses sufficient awareness to be able to do so.
I note that once again, Jamba has failed to answer a simple question put to him. I suspect because he doesn't actually have an answer. Unsurprisingly. 🙄
"I dont know about calmly accepting them. Mrs THM helps at our local food bank. Its up to individuals to do something to help others in ways that they sit fit."
Charities such as food banks exist to try to solve the failures of society and governments. Whilst it's commendable that your wife volunteers in such a scheme, the fact is there is more than enough money in this country for food banks and numerous other charities to not be necessary. The massive rise in food bank use highlights yet another of the many failures of Cameron's government:
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Look how steeply the curve rises following the 2010 election. Proof that the tories have completely failed to address poverty and inequality.
I dare say someone like THM or Jamba may now attempt to show why inequality is falling, but the reality proves that our society is now in a much worse position than it was 6 years ago.
"Oh dear...you really have no idea how society works"
That's probably because he spends all his time on internet forums like this one, and hardly any time actually going out and seeing what's really happening. The same is true for several people on here, sadly. 🙁
Wrong - I met a real person yesterday.
Interesting use of stats there though. Bravo. But you are right about the failure. Still you (Mrs THM) can do something about it, or whinge on an internet forum. Your/her choice 😉
Is that a bit like when Cameron met a black man in Plymouth?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/17/cameron-black-man-debate-gaffe
😆
"Interesting use of stats there though."
Your posting history cannot lie. 😉
Not posting stats - foodbank stats!
From Trussell
\We have a strong focus on [b]practical solutions [/b]to poverty.
Agreed.
Delays or changes to a person’s benefit are two of the biggest causes of referral to a foodbank. In many cases, these are down to problems with the way the Department for Work and Pensions administers benefits.
Unsurprising that inefficiency lies somewhere near the heart of all this
clod the steep rise in foodbank usage is due to the state of the economy which without Tory policies would be in much worse shape. Wouod you rather have Hollande's free spending and France's 25% youth unemployment ?
Inequality is the new bandwagon of the left as the reailty is we are all better off than we where 10, 20, 30 years ago. Also freedom of movement increases inequality depressing wages at the lower end and we have a goobal population expanding rapidly providing ultra low cost manufacturing labour. Spending on health nd welfare has risen substantially. Tax free alloance has doubled, minimum/living wage increases etc
As I have posted numerous times we can address inequality by having the top 1% leave the country and take the 30% of income taxes they pay with them. We could stop people like Mark Zuckerberg becoming billionaires etc
Wouod you rather have Hollande's free spending
Who has the more expansive fiscal policy or highest budget deficit to GDP. Free spending France or Austerity Britain?
Indeed. He has had to reign in his spending as they have hit the debt/gdp limit imposed by euro membership. Our economy is performing much better so we can afford to spend more.
Must reawaken the Corbyn thread regarding the naughty list
"clod the steep rise in foodbank usage is due to the state of the economy which without Tory policies would be in much worse shape. Wouod you rather have Hollande's free spending and France's 25% youth unemployment ?"
Classic Jamaba obfuscation; ignore the actual reality of a situation, then carefully select some bit of information and hope it proves a point. Add in some spurious claim based on opinion rather than fact.
"Inequality is the new bandwagon of the left as the reailty is we are all better off than we where 10, 20, 30 years ago."
Inequality is the reality of our society. We're 'better off'? In what deluded world is that true ffs? Steeply rising personal debt (mainly due to massively inflated house prices and huge mortgages), health and education systems left to rot in order to sell them off to line the pockets of the wealthy elites even further, higher education costs massively increasing, with the result increasing numbers of poorer people will either chose not to go to uni, or end up in massive possibly unpayable debt, child poverty increasing, massively increased hardship for millions of disable and vulnerable people, steep rise in xenophobia, increasing fear amongst the population, increasingly inadequate transport system, etc etc etc.
Yeah, we're better off.
Who's this 'we'?
"clod the steep rise in foodbank usage is due to the state of the economy which without Tory policies would be in much worse shape."
Did you actually look at that graph? If what you say is true, then that curve would have levelled out more, not steepened exponentially! It is absolute proof of the failure of tory policy! Even when presented with incontrovertible facts, you still see something different! 🙄
You are good value entertainment, I must say. 😆
As much as I abhor food banks, I'll still donate rather than see someone starve
We're 'better off'? In what deluded world is that true ffs?
Clod, you are quick to have a crack at Jamba and his facts, but do you ever check stuff before posting.
How about 2% pa real growth in incomes since the late 70s?
How about reductions and then recent stability in inequality?
How about
S: Official statsOver the longer-term, there has been a reduction in poverty rates since the late 1990s for children, pensioners and working-age parents, although the likelihood of being in relative low income has increased for working-age adults without dependent children.
You might be right on xenophobia though!!
As much as I abhor food banks, I'll still donate rather than see someone starve
+1 better to do something practical than whinge.
Since the turn of the millennium, changes in income inequality have been relatively small compared with previous decades. In the early 2000s, income inequality fell. This was in part due to faster growth in income from earnings and self-employment income at the bottom end of the income distribution. Policy changes, such as increases in the national minimum wage, increases in tax credit payments, and the increase in National Insurance contributions in 2003/04 are also likely to have had an impact.[b]The most recent peak in income inequality was in 2006/07 or 2007/08 depending on the measure used. Since then the broad trend has been one of gradual decline in levels of inequality on each of the measures.[/b]
the biggest source of personal debt and society's most prominent marker of success? show that things have been getting worse since erm, the ferrous female (dont wanna invoke ninfans law)
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the insanity of this compared to wage growth...
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"Clod, you are quick to have a crack at Jamba and his facts, but do you ever check stuff before posting."
Facts? Don't you mean Jambafacts? 😉
"How about 2% pa real growth in incomes since the late 70s?
How about reductions and then recent stability in inequality?
How about"
How about not entirely relying on 'official' stats and figures, which are invariably manipulated/distorted to suit whatever government at the time needs them to say? How about actually opening your eyes and seeing the reality of what's going on? How about not reducing everything down to basic economics and numbers? How about actually seeing for yourself, the real impact of tory failure on the very people affected by this, who are largely voiceless and mainly without advocacy?
And if you want some stats and figures, Kimbers above has some for you, plus there's the reality of housing costs being an increasing proportion of income for most people.
"+1 better to do something practical than whinge."
I agree. It's nice for some folk to give a couple of hours a week of their time to charitable causes, so they've got something to pat themselves on the back about, and gain the approval of their peers, but some of us think it takes a little bit more than that...
@kimbers you need to factor in availability and cost of credit. When I bought my first house the mortgage rate was 10%, when my parents bought their first house you had to save for a number of years and then go into the mortgage queue with that building society (from what I recall house was £1,500 and he made £350pa). House prices have been supporting significantly by the level of immigration, we need 200,000 new homes a year or roughly £50 billion worth - we are not building those either way (private or state) so the prices are rising where the jobs are.
Clod you really are deliberately missing the point if you are trying to suggest that Australia's treatment of the indigenous population is relevant to today's immigration policy. I will accept in the 60's when it was basically whites only it wast great but not now. Now they take more people pa than the UK into a population approx 40% of the size and do so in a focused skills based way. Also it's quite hard to get a passport. It's clearly a success. We'll come back to my point that nowhere else in the world has freedom of movement, that's because it's a cr.p idea in such a diverse group of nations. The real strains in the EU have come about after the more recent rapid expansion of the last 10+ years.
I'll try to give you an explanation of what I'm on about, THM, as I think you're struggling to understand.
The best way to deal with unemployment, for example, is to provide jobs. Obviously.
The way unemployment is currently dealt with, is by forcing people into zero hour contracts, and by sanctioning people so that they are no longer receiving jobseeker benefits, and are thus removed from the official unemployment figures. The reality will be that less people are effectively employed in terms of being able to fully provide for themselves and their families, and the burden to the welfare system isn't actually lessened, in many cases, it just gets larger as more in-work benefits have to be paid.
So, a government could claim it's reduced unemployment (hurray!), but the reality will be that the actual situation isn't any better, and in many cases, now even worse.
So it wins votes because it's 'reduced unemployment'. But society hasn't got any better, and might have got worse. This is why you have to look beyond mere statistics and figures. To the reality that lies beyond the numbers.
This is just one simplified example. There are many, many more. That prove why Cameron and the tories have been such an abject failure in their duty to serve the best interests of our society.
Hope this makes things clearer for you.
How about not entirely relying on 'official' stats and figures, which are invariably manipulated/distorted to suit whatever government at the time needs them to say?
Do you understand how economic data is collated in the UK and by whom?
How about actually opening your eyes and seeing the reality of what's going on?
Not everyone has your gift clod.
How about not reducing everything down to basic economics and numbers?
Yes, lets ignore inconvenient facts that falsify your narrative
And if you want some stats and figures,
Hang on, we have given up on those...
Kimbers above has some for you, plus there's the reality of housing costs being an increasing proportion of income for most people.
Go on then you old tease. True, pretty risky to buy a house these days and odd that "state planning" is artificially propping the bloody prices up. Imagine what might happened if they normalised interest rates to where they should be? Good job they dont believe in free markets eh?
I agree. It's nice for some folk to give a couple of hours a week of their time to charitable causes, so they've got something to pat themselves on the back about, and gain the approval of their peers, but some of us think it takes a little bit more than that...
I will pass your sentiments on, but doubt they will be well received.
edit: thank you for your comments on the UK labour market. Given that people on ZHCs represent less than 3% of the workforce and for some of that vast number it is their choice, I will give you analysis an appropriate level of attention.
"Clod you really are deliberately missing the point if you are trying to suggest that Australia's treatment of the indigenous population is relevant to today's immigration policy. I will accept in the 60's when it was basically whites only it wast great but not now. Now they take more people pa than the UK into a population approx 40% of the size and do so in a focused skills based way. Also it's quite hard to get a passport. It's clearly a success."
😯
My head's actually starting to hurt with just how blinkered and deluded you are. I'm off out. Hopefully someone else can pick up the baton and deal with this latest bit of delusion.
th of diabetic ex squad die David, who's benefits were cut off meaning the electricity ran out and his insulin wasn't refrigerated, he was found dead with a stack of Cv's written out ready to be sent, £3 quid in his bank and a tin of tuna in the cupboards
That can't be right - there is no austerity. THM said so!
Which is why his missus spends her free time helping out the victims of non-austerity.
He is a troll no one is this daftHopefully someone else can pick up the baton and deal with this latest bit of delusion.
Clod hopefully your trip out will have cleared your head and enabled you to explain to me why Australia's (or Canada or US) controlled immigration systems are so bad and have not been successful. Asking for help from STW is pointless if the only responder is Junkyard who doesn't even try and make a token effort.
The use of zero-hours contracts has become excessive imo although I do know people who are happy with thm but thats for "part-time plus" work. We are clearly creating lots of attractive jobs if net migration is in the 300,000 with half that from the EU. I suspect there are very many Eastern Europeans eager to take a zero hours contract than a low paid job at home.
IMO people on benefits imo has become necessary, as I have posted before I have stood behind a lad saying he can't be bothered to apply for a job advertised in the convenience store we where in as the wages would come straight off his benefits. The US system is brutal, 2 years max claim then zero.
@jamba...is that all the evidence you need to have a viewpoint..'i heard this lad in a queue say once.....'....haha priceless , that level of thought explain alot.... 😀
That prove why Cameron and the tories have been such an abject failure in their duty to serve the best interests of our society.
Other views are available of course.
Dr, don't worry, you just confusing basic concepts. A glass of water and some Paracetamol will probably do the trick. But even that might be confusing symptoms and causes"
token gesture
an action or a decision that is so small or inconsequential as to be only symbolic
Idiom dictionary for the troll please
The use of zero-hours contracts has become excessive imo
At less than 3% of the workforce? I guess that's the trouble with headlines...
If 3 % of the population was starving to death or dying in winter due to cold would you call that figure excessive?
It really depends on what we are measuring
So people are using food banks and having their benefits cut due to government largesse. Of course. How silly of me not to realise.
This is why we're truly up the creek. Pathetic tribal point scoring based on facts which are managed depending on which side of an ideological divide you randomly support.