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Go to the school and ask, find out the situation as they see it and keep an open mind. If they see she's struggling , or should be down, being in a class with the faster kids is going to be a bit more than disruptive.
You've gone on a bit about friendship groups but also said her best friend was moving down too (IIRC) - so doesn't that mean she'd be unhappy staying in the top class?
^^^ No - it is a large group of her friends in the group - it is easier with the one other going down with her, but there are still four or five others in that class that she is close to.
All you can do is nip in and chat to the HoD if an appointment is available, and see what the issue is and if it can be resolved, also worth checking what he/she would like for Christmas or what their favourite tipple is, hint, hint 🤣
HoY here. There's no easy win from these situations for anyone.
Rightly or wrongly, the Maths Department/Faculty is (like everyone) pretty much totally outcomes driven. Depending on the school, this will result in more or less overt pressure from SLT on the HoD to justify their management decisions. SLT often will only accept hard data as the major part of this. Those CAT results (weird that any school uses that acronym BTW as it has a very widely understood specific meaning in education which isn't how this school is using it) will be what SLT are basing their line management questions for the HoD on.
There will be pressure on numbers in each class.
At each assessment point, students will move or or down in subjects that are setted. This is actually likely to get more volatile during GCSEs rather than less as the HoD tries to juggle the numbers as the terminal exams approach.
It's unlikely HoY will have any involvement in this process beyond maybe being asked to check for any relationship/behaviour concerns stemming from potential set changes. the only time I really am hands on with group changes is if behaviour or safeguarding concerns trigger them rather than assessment data.
I agree that if the situation is as described, the major issue here is one of communication with home rather than the process itself (which happens repeatedly in pretty much every secondary school in the UK).
Class teacher has been less than professional if they have said they disagree with the decision to either student or adults at home - they may well do so, but to say that makes the situation worse rather than better.
Only reasonable course of action is to speak to the HoD, but don't expect that to necessarily change the situation. Schools are/should be the professionals here, and should know what (historically) works for their students in terms of outcomes.
To look at it objectively (and this is probably the line I would take as HoY if in the middle of a similar situation), it's not about being in top set or not (IME kids don't really care about that very much at all) - it's about being in the appropriate teaching environment for what the data currently suggests is what any given student needs to give them the best chance of making good or better progress.
TLDR. It might feel like your kid is on the rough end of this, but the school will have done it for what their processes see as good reasons. They just haven't dealt with the comms/PR side of this very well by the sound of it.
They just haven’t dealt with the comms/PR side of this very well by the sound of it.
FWIW, whilst I can see why parents think they should be consulted about every decision about their children, at my kids school this would not have automatically involved informing or consulting the parents. The expectation being that by 14/15 (?) you are old enough and responsible enough to be looking after yourself (and probably less likely to make a fuss!). And parents would probably only get involved if the initial discussion with the child flagged concerns. We’ve no idea how the OPs daughter reacted on being told this by the teacher - she may well have been ambivalent. Sometimes teenagers do need advocacy support to convey their feelings to teachers (who are in a position of authority) but sometimes they need help talking to parents, who can get angry about stuff they don’t care about…
Parents don't need consulting, agreed as that way madness lies. As a teacher though, I'd see it as a courtesy to inform adults at home (even if it's just a general comms out to all parents that there have been set changes in Maths - takes literally seconds to do this with the group text system we use).
As I’m back here I’ll add the results of a bit of googling.
2023 gcse results were a bit lower so I’ve used the 2022 results. Link below.
Each set is 1/7 of the cohort which is about 14 %. I think the op said there were 7 sets. On National results the 8 and 9 grades are about the top 14%. So that puts grade 7s in the second set.
Now of course it won’t work like that on results day. It’s really hard to know how students will do so. In reality the top set might get some 6&7 grades and the second set some 8&9 grades.
Lots of teachers mentioning how hard grading is in schools. Just don’t get me started. It’s really hard. Click the link to get a clue as to one of the reains why it is so hard
https://www.statista.com/statistics/282422/gcse-grades-in-england/
I got moved up to top set in science when at school (many years ago), on my first lesson, I had the audacity to ask the teacher to repeat something and she replied (to the whole class), "if you can't keep up then get out!" She was the head of the department as well. I think being in top set at times isn't the right place for everyone. In hindsight, I wish I'd asked to be put down a set.
Quote
“if you can’t keep up then get out!”
Quote
I do shudder at my own profession. I usually recon on half the class being lost if anyone asks for a repeat or clarification. So I think everyone gets a thank you.
So I got an initial response from the HoD asking me when I am free this week.
I said I am free all day every day apart from Wednesday.
He suggested we meet on Wednesday.
I immediately responded (as in about 30 seconds after I got his email) saying I can't do Wednesday and asking what other availability he has.
I've still not had a response – delaying tactics? Hoping the move will go ahead and I'll give up?
Or replying to emails between lessons. There are days when I have no non contacts and planning takes up break. Li my if I can deal with 50% of emails with a cursory answer
*Or replying to emails between lessons. *
No, it was before the school day started this morning at about 8am so I responded immediately in the hope he would still be at his computer and be able to schedule something.
I recall being put down 3 sets when my mates copied my work and I was called as copying theirs
Realistically it did me no harm at all as basically I was smart enough to do the work in the first place
Looks like you need to make time on Wednesday.
Or wait a reasonable amount of time for a response...
This morning for me was: get in 0800 put computer on get 4 emails sent, the rest can wait. Check absences in dept. Work out cover work for 8 classes. Print cover work and cover timetable, put appropriate work in correct classes. Quickly catch up on staff. Get lessons 1&2 set up. Wander round having wee chats with pupils as they went to reg. Caught up with cover teachers explained the work they were to do and any highlights amongst the pupils.
The day just went on from there. I'm afraid that lots of things slid to the bottom of the list. It's not often I can get into a to and fro email conversation.
Busy olympics.
Just trying to highlight that HoD might be busy.
This morning for me was: get in 0800 put computer on get 4 emails sent, the rest can wait. Check absences in dept. Work out cover work for 8 classes. Print cover work and cover timetable, put appropriate work in correct classes. Quickly catch up on staff. Get lessons 1&2 set up. Wander round having wee chats with pupils as they went to reg. Caught up with cover teachers explained the work they were to do and any highlights amongst the pupils.
The day just went on from there. I’m afraid that lots of things slid to the bottom of the list. It’s not often I can get into a to and fro email conversation.
Bloody hell, teachers moan about being over-worked but that sounds like the life of Riley!
As HoD, do you do honest appraisals with your team members? Sound's like you are delegating most of your job onto lower ranking memnbers of staff.
delaying tactics? Hoping the move will go ahead and I’ll give up?
If you have to ask!?
I immediately responded (as in about 30 seconds after I got his email) saying I can’t do Wednesday and asking what other availability he has.
I’ve still not had a response – delaying tactics? Hoping the move will go ahead and I’ll give up?
I frequently have people who ask “when” and an answer of “anytime except X” as “x”. I assume it’s skim reading not conspiracy.
Assuming other people process their inbox the same way as you do is a fool’s errand - indeed I have an automatic tendency NOT to reply to an email if I get an immediate response myself as 1. It creates the wrong expectation; 2. It probably means we are using the wrong communication tool.
Nah, ****tery just winds folk up.
*Looks like you need to make time on Wednesday.*
Why? He has the option of every hour of every other day. And I have still not heard back.
I said I am free all day every day apart from Wednesday.
He suggested we meet on Wednesday.
That alone justifies going over his head as I originally suggested. There's little point in meeting soemone you are all ready in conflict with, go over their head to the head or governors.
Why? He has the option of every hour of every other day. And I have still not heard back.
I'd politely suggest that he may be busy for at least some of the time!
I suggest he is being obstructive. Politeness doesn't come in to it
I wrote a much longer reply but after careful consideration this is all that remains:
As with every profession I've worked in there have been a range of attitudes from absolute professionalism to incompetant and nasty with it.
Might I suggest that possibly your child has just dropped down the rankings? Lets say, 5 sets. 150 kids = 30ish in each. The top 30ish will make the top set. There may be two top sets if numbers demand . You get my drift? It may vary a bit of course but if the school feels that she doesn't fit for some reason then maybe the experts know better.
Nice sociable chat will be worth it but no need to get even slightly confrontational. I would regard an email reply within 24 hours more than good enough knowing the pressure schools are in. Next week would be fine.
Haven't read the thread, has anyone suggested that everyone concerned just suck it up and get on with it?
Haven’t read the thread, has anyone suggested that everyone concerned just suck it up and get on with it?
You do know you're on STW just now, i'm amazed we haven't had more posts blaming Keir Starmer or capitalism for all this so far 🤣
You do know you’re on STW just now
Would that it were just a STW thing.
Can someone explain why being moved down is a bad thing? More support, more time, might actually improve grades.
Sometimes the top groups just rattle through the curriculum so teacher doesn't have to interact with kids.
I remember my science teachers wanted to drop me from the top set... until I proved them wrong by getting close to 90% in a past set of O level papers a year out from the exams, and doing waaaaay better than the class golden balls.
They are not always right. (But I know it's a sometimes thankless job - my mrs left teaching).
If the actual teacher doesn't agree with it (as you indicate they didnt) then talking to the teacher is a waste of time. If it really is 1 subject that slipped a bit (you said a '7' - that's not like getting a '2'!) You probably need to tell the HoD to go buy another desk for the new kid to move up ! I'd want the HoD to explain themselves!
Me ? I was shiiite at Laplace Transforms in my degree's maths. Still am. But didn't need me being degraded to the HND group !
I’d want the HoD to explain themselves!
Like every other profession there needs to be accountability and transparency in teaching. However, that doesn't mean parents should be demanding explanations for every single decision.
Me ? I was shiiite at Laplace Transforms in my degree’s maths. Still am. But didn’t need me being degraded to the HND group !
Didn't do too well in logic either! "Dropping down a set" is not equivalent to changing qualification.
You probably need to tell the HoD to go buy another desk for the new kid to move up !
And presumably your maths degree didn't get you a job where either people skills, budget management or complying with external regulations (like no of pupils in the class) were a reality.
Like every other profession there needs to be accountability and transparency in teaching. However, that doesn’t mean parents should be demanding explanations for every single decision.
We’ve not ‘demanded’ a single thing since they have been at the school (ie, start of yr 7). But on this particular situation, I feel like an explanation is due.
Thread resurrection… she’s just completed her mock GCSEs and has been moved back up into the top set - what a waste, messing kids around (especially after being told three months ago that there would be no more moves in their GCSE period). All because of one set of results that were clearly an exception. TBF, she’s buzzing and so proud of herself though. 🙂
The Parenthood Rollercoaster!
Perhaps she needed to revisit blocks of the syllabus that the higher set wouldn’t be going back over in any depth, and her time in the lower set has paid off.
Perhaps she needed to revisit blocks of the syllabus that the higher set wouldn’t be going back over in any depth, and her time in the lower set has paid off.
Nah - it was clearly the wrong decision made by the wrong people (as I said from the start, her teacher didn't agree with the decision). She struggled with one subject that was covered in one test and that's it. The proof is clear – she has now been moved straight back up to the class she had been back in since the start of Year 7. Madness. And this is a child who struggles with anxiety (which the school know all about) and change isn't easy for her to cope with.
And if she needed to revisit the one subject she struggled with, it could have been covered with additional tutoring sessions (the school offers this), rather than move classes around half-way through GCSEs.
Investment bank analyst: Straight A’s, Double Maths, Phd.
Investment bank CEO: Modern Art, Dropout of Uni to pick basil in Italy over summer to perfect their pesto recipe.
Get a tutor or the teacher to help over break times with the struggle subjects.
Double down on internships and work experience as early as possible.
Or relax a bit to the reduce the stress/anxiety levels a bit
TBF, she’s buzzing and so proud of herself though. 🙂
Sounds like it did some good then.
I am not so sure it did her good (and we could even consider that she has missed out on some key learning leading up to her GCSEs which could be detrimental). She spent the last three months questioning her abilities and, as I have already said, I maintain that the original decision was wrong.
The first thing i'll say is GCSE's dont matter in the real world. As long as you get a C (or whatever it is now) its zero barrier later in life. Theres too much pressure on kids at this stage.
If she follows this up a level to A Levels, its going to increase in difficulty by x1000 and become harder to be at the top of the class.
Having had to go through a difficult patch (and recover) is a good life lesson to learn.
The first thing i’ll say is GCSE’s dont matter in the real world. As long as you get a C (or whatever it is now) its zero barrier later in life.
Whilst I agree with that sentiment (I got shocking grades and only having some artistic skills saved me), at that age they should feel like they are being recognised and rewarded for their (quite substantial) efforts, not be moved down a class based on what was, in her case, a single blip. Anyway, I feel like I am repeating myself now.
I would go in and have a friendly word, I think teachers should expect a little parental concern if their children are getting dropped a set.
But from your OP I would be prepared for a couple of things
1, you might have a biased view of your kids previous performance (maybe even encouraged by some misinformation from them). So be prepared that it might be the right decision, and allow them to give their justification.
2. The teacher who said it was nothing to do with them might have been passing the book so they don't have to deal with any fallout.
@MSP – it is all sorted now – she was moved down three months ago (we didn't agree but accepted their decision after I discussed it with the HoD), she has done her mocks, done well (as we expected her to do, and as her teacher expected her to) and has been moved back to where she was in the top set!
Have we found out the reason for the move?
The move back up or the original move down?