D of E rucksack for girl

Something with an adjustable back would be most useful. Then it’s mostly down to how much you want to spend. Rucksacks specifically for women have different shaped back and strap systems, but she will change a lot in the next 20 years and could probably do with just a ‘rucksack’ for the time being. Women specific rucksacks are harder to source and can be more expensive.

DoE, female specific backpack?

Sorted 😉

Anyone got any recommendations for a a shortish girl ? Looking for something that will last 20 years 🤔.

Has she stopped growing?

Often the local group has access to a pool of equipment.

I'd really recommend going to a decent shop and trying them for size - they should have weights they can load in. I bought a Lowe Alpine almost 20 years ago on this basis and ended up choosing it over a MacPac that I thought was better. I've done multi-day walks in every state of Australia with it and still use it today.

Decathlon is our go to place for quality v price.

For Bronze, our daughter used her brothers Vango - adjustable back worked OK, it's only two days.

Might need to look at a female specific one if she goes on through silver and gold - she's short and busy so need to find something that fits her properly

Thanks all. She is 5' 4" and I suspect she has stopped growing. Will get out to GoOutdoors and Decathlon later.

I’d really recommend going to a decent shop and trying them for size

I bought one from a mate for my DoE bronze expedition. Cost me 15 quid.
Threw it away the day i could lift my arms above my head and get it in a skip.

Bought a Karrimor about a year later from our local camping and outdoor specialist, still using it on occasion. 30+ years later.

Borrow one or buy second hand.

We've a ladies 55lt Deuter that's perfect - and got a shorter back, wider hips etc.

I've got an old Karrimor 60l sac for sale if you are interested - it's mint (Mrs Stretch hardly used it)

Thanks @matt is there a particular model ? I think I have been pointed at the 70l size for some reason.

I have lost touch with what is a quality brand and what is likely to disintergrate.

I think traditionally an army surplus Bergen is recommended to carry the kitchen sink in.

Whatever rucksack you get she'll fill it, so don't go too large, and make sure she only takes the bare minimum.

From seeing them out and about, one that's bigger than the tent they're going to pitch, rammed to the gunnels with God knows what so that mats and mugs need to be dangling off the sides.

Think I'm about to get a shopping list for this as well...will see if any of my kit might be useable, but suspect I'll be buying a large amount of kit. Just shows how out of date I am as I hadn't realised rucksacks were so pricey these days!

I've got the sleeping kit on the recommended list but it doesn't pack down very small so I may use this as an excuse to upgrade several bits of kit!

@binman

70lt is big. With careful selection of what to take, I find most can get away with 55-60lt. That said, some participants and parents treat it as a 'how much can you take' competition.

The Deuter is old Contact 55+10. It was £40, used for one DofE...

We've also got 3x Lowe Alpine of various types, none bigger than 65lt. All £40 or under from here or Facebook groups.

Don't forget you get a discount card once you sign up for DoE, this works at Go Outdoors and their related retailers.

Vango Sherpa 60+10s is a shorter backed but still adjustable rucksack

Last time I was looking for a sack for wild camping, Decathlon did a great lightweight one for not much money. Which was good, because I didn't have any money. Didn't buy it in the end as a STWer loaned me one (and attempts for me to return it have always fizzled out).

From seeing them out and about, one that’s bigger than the tent they’re going to pitch, rammed to the gunnels with God knows what so that mats and mugs need to be dangling off the sides.

Wasn't that Charles Hawtrey?

We went to Go Outdoors for my lad’s expedition. Good kit at reasonable prices with DofE discount. Staff also knowledgeable and were able to recommend rucksacks etc

https://www.dofe.org/shopping/dofe-recommended-kit/

https://www.dofe.org/shopping/expedition-kit/

I've just skimmed through this, there's actually some really good advice.

Their "expedition kit list" is way excessive for bronze though. Eg, you don't need three tee-shirts for an overnight stay. The interactive checklist could be handy (why isn't it an app?! Missed opportunity)

For a first outing I'd add - borrow as much as you can. She might hate it and a pile of decent kit is a lot of wedge to throw at something she comes back from going "never again". If nothing else, it'll give a baseline. That mat was too bulky / uncomfortable; the sleeping bag was too cold / warm; etc. It enables you to make an informed decision when buying "last for the next 20 years" kit.

Over the years I've thrown away / passed on more camping gear than I've kept, it's very much an arena of "buy cheap, buy twice." You can pay silly money and you don't need the absolute best of the best, but bottom-feeder gear is usually truly terrible.

Would you like my two penn'orth on the kit list? There's no point in me taking ages in running through it if you're already good. (I know nothing about DofE but I've done quite a bit of walking / camping.)

For a first outing I’d add – borrow as much as you can.

100% this.

We have a huge pile of kit to lend our participants for this reason.
+1 on the kit list can be excessive for an overnight.

The answer is Cotswold. They’ll fit her and give a DoE discount. Osprey something is most likely, 50-60L with expansion. Don’t go too big. Our two sons both have 70L that they still use but they’ll be huge on her when fully packed and extended.

Seems opportunity to share what I think is the funniest moment I have ever seen on a DofE trip.

I met the group somewhere above Loch Rannoch at the river crossing. I showed them where to cross - and how in pairs to support each other on the slippery rock. It was at the shallow, but wide part.
One of the lads 'knew better' - so walked 20m up the bank to the narrowest part of the river and confidently strode in... A stumble as he went thigh deep, and then this...note the looks on the others faces.
I didn't stop laughing for a week.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/4341/36660952984_73aed16ced_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/4341/36660952984_73aed16ced_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://www.flickr.com/gp/matt_outandabout/76QEt97h89 ]How not too...[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr

The others noted my advice...
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/4197/34559053934_03c4531f47_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/4197/34559053934_03c4531f47_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://www.flickr.com/gp/matt_outandabout/45p9w1pHU9 ]Dunblane BB Exped highlights[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr

"are we learning yet?" 😁

Matt, is the logic behind doubling-up some clothing simply "in case you get one soaked" as per meladdo above?

Eg, I see little reason to change outer walking socks (liner socks 'optional' is lunacy) on an overnighter, but if you ruin a pair by going knee-deep+ then it's prudent to have a backup?

Yes, that's the general idea.
Usually you can use the dry set to sleep in too, unless emergency dictates. Usual judgement of weather forecast, river crossings, 2/3/4 day trip etc applies.

If you have clothing that's warm when wet and don't mind the experience then 1 set of wet stuff 1 set of dry camp stuff.

I can get 2 nights stuff in a 30l, and with the lid expansion half a climbing rack as well. None of my stuff is particularly special.

3\4 length self inflating mat is better and a lot less bulky than the typical roll of green foam strapped to the outside, warmer and more comfortable. Spend the money you save borrowing everything else on a good one. Likewise cooking, just take a micro gas stove, Ali cup and dehydrated meals for an overnight or two.

Would you like my two penn’orth on the kit list? There’s no point in me taking ages in running through it if you’re already good. (I know nothing about DofE but I’ve done quite a bit of walking / camping.)

Its irrelevant what you think, the person supervising/assessing them is the one who needs to be happy with the amount of kit they have.  FWIW I agree everyone takes too much, DoE guidance effectively encourages people to take more than is sensible, and kids not used to lugging massive amounts of kit have a miserable time because they are carrying stuff they will never use.  A wise supervisor might use that as a learning point after he practice expedition but I'm sure many would not want to go less than the official DOE guidance because if anything goes wrong someone will complaint that another t-shirt would have meant little jonny didn't have to abort when he got soaked etc.

(As an aside - I used to carry half that shit up mountains with me in my later teens/early 20s as I thought DOE had "taught" me the right way to do it - I suspect it was a big part in why I stopped walking/camping.  Having returned to it in middle age I now see it as a challenge for how little I can get away with carrying.  But that is not a strategy I'd recommend to DOE participants either.  I know how miserable I will/wont be, I know my options for bailing out without letting anyone else down and I also mostly plan my trips once I can predict the weather etc - DOE will work the other way where both the date and journey is set and only horrendous conditions will get in the way and it might be many weeks before it could be rescheduled)

DoE is one of the most enjoyable things I do and I get as much out it as the kids.We bought a few female specific packs last couple of years; Vango 60l. Packs with a smaller waist and narrow back are a must for teenage girls. Where are you based Binman as rather than chuck money at one I could lend out as she may decide it was hellish and you have spent 70ish quid. We are in Angus.

Matt, bet that human rock was also the one who always brings a knife to whittle sticks.

Matt, bet that human rock was also the one who always brings a knife to whittle sticks.

You've met Midge then?
😂😂😂

Its irrelevant what you think, the person supervising/assessing them is the one who needs to be happy with the amount of kit they have.

Sure. But... titanium cutlery? What's wrong with a plastic spork?

@poly I've run and assessed quite a few DofE expeditions and I don't know of anyone who's been failed or sent home because of kit. In the training at my old school we'd actively encourage the kids to take a more sensible amount of stuff. We'd usually see a fair array of extra stuff on the Bronze practice exped but by the qualifying the packs were mostly pretty good. Appreciate that some centres may have the 'more kit = better' approach but that's certainly not been my experience from a few centres.

@binman - some good advice on the thread so far. If this is for Bronze then borrowing a rucksack would be ideal if possible. Otherwise the most important thing is how the rucksack fits so finding a shop with decent staff and stock should be your port of call. At our school we had a variety of vango rucksacks that worked well for most people. It was almost always girls who didn't get on with the fit - I thinks there's just a bit more variation in their hip/shoulder widths than with boys.

Sure. But… titanium cutlery? What’s wrong with a plastic spork?

I don't think you are reading the list right.  Left column says bring cutlery.  Right column is the answer to clueless parent saying - oh what cutlery do I need, "well here are some specific product examples" note it mentions s/steel, titanium and google tells me the ellipse range is plastic.  [Alternative cynical view - "our commercial partners get us to list these specific models"].  Why no spork?  Not sure but the weight saving from a knife fork and spook cadged from the school canteen v's a spork is going to be trivial compared to the stuff they make you take.  Personally I'd not encourage plastic as 14yr olds are stupid and will melt it, either intentionally because they are playing with fire or because they were trying to scrape the beans off the bottom of the pan.  I suspect the original list was devised on a "don't go and buy stuff especially - you already have cutlery in the house" basis.

@stevious - I wasn't suggesting people would be failed for not having a particular item, but if you packed light and turned up with a 30L sack with the minimum kit in it when the rest of your group has 60L I'd expect the supervisors to be asking questions and if your answer is "no I didn't bring everything on the list because my dad's mate on the internet said it was totally unnecessary" you might be going to rethink!  For what its worth every group I've been aware of (my time, my kids time, local scouts I've helped etc) has always made the kids bring the kit packed a week or two before the practice expedition, under the guise of checking everyone has all the stuff (I'd like to think its so that if someone is struggling to get / afford some kit that they might be able to quietly help out too).   But I think in every case its allowed the supervisors to go through the kit and say, "you really don't need ski sallopettes in july", "you can probably leave the spare trainers behind", "an actual pillow is nice to take camping but is taking up 1/3rd of your rucksack", "that giant bathtowel you've packed weighs more than your food", "cans of coke are not the most practical up a hill" (real examples!) - none of those things is on the official list (a towel is but not the fluffiest white towel you've ever seen).

Thanks All.

I was wondering whether to get a "good one" that her mum can use too. Mum's Karrimoor rucksack got thrown out as it was 30+ years old and disintergrating / delaminating after lockdown.

I was curious about the metal bowl / plate / cup, why won't a good plastic one be Ok (I normally use a Sea to Summit plastic  bowl) ? Do they cook with them ?

We are good for everything bar the rucksack.

Metal cup and dehydrated meal means you don't need a saucepan (boil water in cup), titanium spoons come in extra long handle versions that reach the bottom of the pouch the meal comes in.

I did DofE with the required kit list, and didn't camp or hike for 20 years after the horror.

Guessing the metal requirement will allow you to not worry about using them to cook with as they shouldn't melt....they also tend to be a bit more robust as they are more likely to bend rather than crack.

I was wondering whether to get a “good one” that her mum can use too. Mum’s Karrimoor rucksack got thrown out as it was 30+ years old and disintergrating / delaminating after lockdown.

If your wife & daughter are different in size & shape then it might well be worth paying a bit more for something that can be adjusted well to fit them both. I know Osprey have a good system for this and am sure other brands will too.

As for what else constitutes a 'good' rucksack depends on your own preferences. Nobody on any of my expeditions has had any significant issues with any rucsacs except for when they haven't fit well.

I was curious about the metal bowl / plate / cup, why won’t a good plastic one be Ok (I normally use a Sea to Summit plastic bowl) ? Do they cook with them ?

Absolutely no idea what that's about, and have never taken notice of it. FWIW, I've never seen anyone bring a plate after Bronze. Or more than one item of cutlery (usually a stolen/borrowed spoon).

Just to clarify my point above, as an assessor I have to make sure they've cooked and eated a hot meal each day. Whether you eat it from a titanium mug or the skull of your vanquished foes is of no interest to me*.

Different assiciations will have their own guidance on cooking equipment (fairly sure everyone avoids meths now) so either stick with what the group says or check with the supervisor in advance.

*from an assessment point of view. I'm probably interested in how you vanquished your foe.

Am I the only one that read morecashthandash's response and thought, what has 'busy' got to do with it?

Then I realised..... Missing 't'

Agree with the people saying to borrow one rather than buy.

If she has stopped growing then don't get one with an adjustable back.

If you do buy then tip out the foam and stuff from the demo sack and shove some proper heavy stuff in there to try it out ( eg climbing ropes)

(fairly sure everyone avoids meths now)

Such a shame - been used by DofE groups for decades. A couple of (horrific) accidents caused by poor training and adult crapness has put fear into everyone's plans. 🙁

I’m probably interested in how you vanquished your foe.

I think the Scouts have a badge for that.

I think the Scouts have a badge for that.

If they don't use meths, what do they cook with now ?

If they don’t use meths, what do they cook with now ?

Gas cannisters. We used our old Trangias with the gas adaptor - a bit heavy but very stable and windproof.

I can kind of sympathise with whoever did the risk assessment advising against meths. Going by the book and seeing an invisible flame with no way of isolating the fuel supply it's hard to justify when there are 'safer' options available. I don't know enough about the real life safety to know if it was an over-reaction or not.

I don’t know enough about the real life safety to know if it was an over-reaction or not.

Good training and awareness meant meths has been used in most outdoor centres with groups for 40 years, with few issues.

I personally think gas burns quicker, being hotter.

But I also see the horrific accident involving 2.5lt of meths and a young lady's life altered and understand the concern.

you don’t need three tee-shirts for an overnight stay.

Some of my Scouts could get through 3 shirts in a day with no bother. It's the old teenage thing of not thinking through the consequences. One bright spark thought melting his water bottle on the evening fire was a good idea until I asked what he was going to drink from the following day on the 20 mile bike ride.

Am I the only one that read morecashthandash’s response and thought, what has ‘busy’ got to do with it?

Then I realised….. Missing ‘t’

Would be inappropriate of me to comment about my own daughter with correct spelling 🤣

Strangely, I used to write a lot of property reports where the house was on a "busty" road.

Back to the rucksack thing, mrsmidlife has at least one (possibly 3) new unused rucksack from a kit bulk buy for girl guides trip to Jamboree in Poland which got Covided in 2020. Could be had for a smallish donation. We think it’s 55litre or so, but we’re in Cumbria and it’s in Yorkshire. Decent kit, but can’t remember the make and model. We’ll be back there on Saturday and can dig it out.

We think it’s 55litre or so, but we’re in Cumbria and it’s in Yorkshire. Decent kit, but can’t remember the make and model. We’ll be back there on Saturday and can dig it out.

Post up here and I am sure there will be a market !

Vango contour is the one the DofE recommend I think. We bought one for my lad this year but sent it back as it was as it pink! It's red but not red red!

My lad borrowed my old one in the end, that I thought would be rubbish nowadays but was actually lighter than the contour.

This is the one we bought, from a recommendation on here. Decent price as well.

https://www.outdooraction.co.uk/vango-contour-50-60s-rucksack-p1545/s5441?