[Closed] D of E Gold, what you paying?

Depends where her group elect to do their gold as to how much it costs.

My wife did hers on the massive central as a kid

Other friends of ours did a coast to coast on bikes in Scotland  = mucho cheaper.

Or she could do it as it's meant to be done. Plan area, routes and transport themselves, fill in green forms and submit to licensed authority. Wait to hear if they have an assessor and any route changes etc.

Certainly we didn't charge that much but it could easily get to that cost. I would do a recce of route, some won't, but transport, kit, supervisors, potential over nights either side, costs build. Is it practice and qualifier?

Let's work this out.

DofE fees.

Massive admin time and chasing the pupils to get stuff in.

Expedition.

supervisor, who spent likely two years and £5k gaining Mountain Leader. Can make some pretty damn important decisions about keeping your daughter safe. 4days delivery, half a days prep, carrying £1k of personal kit to make it happen at £150day

Asessor, that useful external check on standards and second adult help in case. Again, likely ML and Asessor amd also same costs £150/day

Minibus costs £1.50 a mile, so maybe 100 miles. If you're heading somewhere north, that could be 400 mile round trip... £150 - £400

Are the pupils being leant kit? Usually at least multiple maps, maybe £300 worth per pupil.

Camp sites are now £6-10 per pupil, per night. Say just one night on paid site is still £90 (7 in group plus Asessor and Supervisor), per exped.

Training - you have at least three afternoons, again at £100 per half day.

You do a practice exped and qualifying.

If you think it's a nice jolly, you go get qualified and volunteer for half a dozen next year. For every nice group and OK weather, you have another two days in rain, midges, group getting lost, away from your own family.

So I'm upto about £4100-4500, divided by 7 pupils, minimum.

I tell you what, you share with us what you get paid for laying concrete. Two of you, 8 days, stay away from home, you kit, insurance, travel etc.

Or she could do it as it’s meant to be done. Plan area, routes and transport themselves, fill in green forms and submit to licensed authority. Wait to hear if they have an assessor and any route changes etc.

This +1

I used to help a Very Posh Girls School run theirs, and be the creepy bloke (and my wife, and another couple with two Dept Heads) following them in the minibus to make sure a) they did it and b) they came to no harm.

And MoaB says is the nuts n bolts of it these days.

And maybe look at it as a life experience for your child? Cost Shirley is irrelevant?

My girlfriend charges 80 quid for the practice expedition. 100 for the actual assessed expedition.

There is the cost of the book on top of this. I think that's 22 pounds.

£380 for my daughter ( I think we paid £350 when my son did it 2 years ago)

school is very supportive - teacher running it puts a lot of time into if and part of the charge goes into replacing/ updating communal kit

for all of the training provided I don't think it's bad value

Cant speak for gold, but our son did bronze a couple of years ago, £25 through his school, done locally, teacher  as instructor, they passed our house at one point. The local grammar school charged £250. He wont be doing silver or gold, he spends all his spare time (and resources) mountain biking, working, and travelling 2.5 hours a day to sixth form college!

Edit - I dont think £450 is bad value for what it is, but would hope there was support for lower income families

I did bronze, silver and gold through school (about 10 years ago). Honestly can’t remember the costs, but I can say it was worth it. Everyone I knew who completed it became more mature and well rounded as a result, and many became lifelong friends in the process.

Our supervisor did make a point of doing some more exotic expeditions, e.g. the Cairngorms and Isle of Lewis for gold practice and assessment. Not the cheapest from Lancashire, but I’m glad we went to the hebredies, it certainly added to the challenge! Other trips I remember (probably silver level) were Dartmoor and Mid Wales, again a few 100 miles round trip. Yes we could have used the Pennines on our doorstep, but the spirit of the exped isn’t to do it in view of your school/home.

My eldest has signed up for Bronze through school and it's £280

We charged £300 I think, for training, practice and assessment for gold. All the equipment needed could be borrowed, included all transport and campsite fees etc. When all levels were out we had 10+ staff out of school. But if you already have a group and kit, and can work out the paperwork, it’s very cheap to do by yourself. You can wild camp at gold too which makes it even cheaper.

I'm getting charged £23 for a school photo on a crappy usb stick. £450 sounds cheap.

MoaB - your response whilst probably accurate comes across as hostile; the scheme was originally conceived to run on the goodwill of teachers, scout leaders etc.  It definitely seems to have become more commercialised in the 25 yrs since I was a participant, although my son is still doing it virtually for free via the Scouts*.

The OP is definitely mistaken though if he thinks that the supervisors/assessors are on a huge jolly.** If anything the costs have been pushed up by parents/schools/LAs being concerned that ordinary teachers were not appropriate to supervise this sort of activity and encouraging hiring in professional supervision.  I’m not convinced that is good for the scheme or outdoor education in general.

I think the important things to understand though are what does the 400 include (and how/when is it paid - not everyone that starts finishes).  As alluded to above their is a registration fee with doe, there is transport, there is equipment, there is the practice expedition (or multiple if not done Silver already, or if they aren’t deemed ready after the first one).  The other thing to remember is that the expedition is only one part of the award - whilst there are cheap or free ways to achieve the other sections - you could run up bills from learning skills, improving physical ability and even from volunteering.  Certainly for the extra Residential Activity which gold requires you are likely to have another significant bill.

Now, I assume this is a school quoting the price? if the OP’s child really wants to do it and cost is the fundamental barrier there are other places to go.  In fact in my limited experience I’d suggest the participant may even enjoy it more, and possibly gain more from it by doing it 1. Away from the school friends; 2. With a group who are more enthusiastic; 3. With a group who’s parents aren’t expecting to “buy them” a DoE award...

*that is possible because people, including myself, provide the time to support it without getting out our calculators.

**obviously some are, but they won’t usually come back to do it again...

As a teacher running a Gold unit, probably comes in about £100. Log book, 2 x £10-15 for minibus to the start of practise and final. One nights bunkhouse before the final at under £20, we loan kit for a payment of £10 and a deposit of £50. The assessor is a local ex teacher and we pay his fee and a bottle of malt. I am a ML and have two colleagues to help. However we are lucky as we get funding from a couple of local businesses who recognise the value of it. This allows us to buy kit such as tents, female specific packs, decent inflatable mattresses etc. I did my ML to open it up, the school used to have to pay for outside help and it was eye watering and when the budget cuts started it was being passed onto the participants. I did my training one year and assessment the next and the total cost of my ML training and assessment was covered the first year I had it. If it is a small group and you are having to hire in, then £450 is probably fairly realistic based on that.

even transport can be a huge issue if you have a young leader.

My wife has a constant battle finding folk that can drive the minibus.

There is a local authority test that is paid for by funding - but in order to do that you must have D1 entitlement on your license - ie have done the standalone test or have it on your license as an older licence holder.

There is no funding for your D1 - even when one of your core functions within the school is outdoor and active education - Duckman / Matt id be happy to be corrected on that and it would make Mrs T-Rs life alot easier.

So they end up having to get outside drivers or a heap of cars - which when you have ruck sacks and the average teachers car is 3 students and a teacher to a car.

You are quite right TR, I often drive the bus for netball etc if I am free as the cost of putting somebody through minibus test if they are too young to have D1 automatically is massive.(Google tells me it went in 1997) I think that is the reason schools aren't doing it. There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.

Jeeesus moab calm down, I only asked. Thanks for your ever so slightly moody response, I'm well aware of the time and effort etc, however when one school can do it for 200 ish and our school is 450 I just wondered where the difference came from.

As for concrete, i just watch it being laid 😉

The school can do it for £200 because of the goodwill of the teachers. However as things get tighter then you have to wonder if giving up your weekend for a silver practise is worth it when the school gives you please takes on your only free periods the day before you go.... Of course what you aren't factoring in is her residential....mwahahaha....I helped with the Stonehaven open unit while my other half's kids were there... One gold went Dolphin counting on a VERY nice boat and another went to an orangatang sanctuary. I knew the Dad of the ginger ape counter, he was nearly greeting at the cost.

Nothing wrong with MoaBs post.

He’s just clearly laying out the costs involved, that so many it seems don’t take into consideration.

#kidsareexpensive

#noshock

My wife has a constant battle finding folk that can drive the minibus.

This. My other half used to drive the minibus around between check-in points etc Very few staff could drive the bus, which is how they roped her in in the first place. The whole operation is now run by an outside company.

the scheme was originally conceived to run on the goodwill of teachers, scout leaders etc. It definitely seems to have become more commercialised in the 25 yrs since I was a participant, although my son is still doing it virtually for free via the Scouts*.

I thought most outward bound qualifications were like that, my ML training was run at cost, run by a Scouts Mountaineering Group - mind you that was 30 years ago....

Just looked at an outside provider aand it looks like the costs are from £780 for training, practise and qualifying. Not including transport and food.

Oh and as above nothing pisses off people that give up their time to volunteer for things like this more than folk of the opinion that it's a bit of a skive. Leaving Thurs evening to exped weekend return Sunday evening watch group bombburst leaving you to return vehicles go home then get cover lessons is a pita.

I'm afraid this is the reality of the education system you/we the tax payer are prepared to pay for. DofE in schools used to run on goodwill and unpaid overtime and volunteering basis. The work to put on such a trip has gone up significantly with the increase in H&S and safeguarding required to keep everyone (inc parents) happy. With teacher workload increasing significantly in the day to day job those who either feel they have the capacity or quite frankly the willingness to go the extra mile is diminishing. The fewer teachers who are prepared to help the higher the workload there is on those that do. Until something goes pop and you have to bring in an outside company to run it as you have broken your staff prepared to go over and above.

Think about it - you are a teacher and there are a group of kids that want to do an expedition at the weekend. If you give up your weekend the kids get to do it for a minimal cost or if the school buys in the staffing it cost the parents more. If you do it and something goes wrong you are in the shit for something you didn't have to do in the first place. If a paid company does it you spend the weekend with your family (probably still marking mind) and someone else is in the shit. The parents who save their money if you volunteer to do it unpaid rarely thank you for going the extra mile and are also the same parents quick to complain when you are doing your day (proper) job. The motivation to put yourself in this position is vanishingly small sadly.

spot on. you're obvioiusly in the profession, or close to it like i am

+1 convert & +1 Matt OAB

I'm an ex-DofE assessor and my Wife is a Teacher with the same qualification. Schools are generally subcontracting stuff like DofE out as they don't have the staff willing to volunteer to do it (for the reasons convert listed)

I think £450 is reasonable for a gold expedition, as if you just book up with one of the 'tour operators' doing it (you'd be away for 8-9 days - do the practice trip, have a day off and then straight into the real thing) you could be looking at the high 100s..

DofE is just yet another activity which has become 'industrialised' to a lesser or greater degree.

Mibbe we could get teachers to do it on their 8 week summer break?..... 💥

I will bite, it is 6 and I already do it during that time.

I think £450 is reasonable for a gold expedition, as if you just book up with one of the ‘tour operators’ doing it (you’d be away for 8-9 days – do the practice trip, have a day off and then straight into the real thing) you could be looking at the high 100s..

Who's assessing that?  It would be unusual for someone to come back from a practice who isn't a bit broken - even if its just from lack of sleep.  I'd expect there to be some time to reflect on what could have been done better, anything they'd like to train more on and equipment that might be improved (or shared between the group saving weight etc).  I'd really not expect the bulk of the main expedition planning to be done until the practice was complete.

I thought most outward bound qualifications were like that, my ML training was run at cost, run by a Scouts Mountaineering Group – mind you that was 30 years ago….

There are still usually groups running things on a shoe string but there are also plenty of people cashing in.  I guess as schools try to differentiate their pupils in a competitive careers landscape its almost inevitable that they are putting greater emphasis on this sort of stuff.  When I did it only the really committed people did their DOE, now it seems (and it may be different demographics at play) that its much more common.  That means the supervisors have to deal with far more people who have no desire to be there, along with their parents who probably have no real interest other than when to drop them off and pick them up.

There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.

I reckon that is #fakenews.  Can you elaborate?

I reckon that is #fakenews.  Can you elaborate?

Why would I make that up?

I have to provide risk assessments for private cars if they are used to ferry pupils to an activity or they aren't covered by the council insurance. Likewise if I had a people carrier and along with another teacher in the car, took pupils on a trip I would have to declare it and pay more on my car insurance.

Air cadets do all stages of Dof E.......at no cost other than normal atc fees......

What duckman said.

We have to pay for business cover for the wife's car and lodge proof of the cover with the school to allow her to use her personal vehicle to take kids out.

It was the use of the car for work that forced my hand to give up bangernomics for the wife. My own personal risk assement said I'm.not having other people's kids driven around in a 15 year old car with minimal safety devices

<p>That's not answering the point that "There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason." I presume that's badly worded and means some sort of official lift share (which I can see) and not just parents driving their kids to a pickup point (which is bonkers).</p><p></p><p>My sister in law did her DoE and Queens Guide through Guiding UK, pretty sure it never cost that. IIRC she's a Mountain Leader now as well. Maybe external organisations such as Scouts/Guides, Cadets etc. are better placed for these things, I know a lot of the stuff we used for DoE when I was at school was mil kit from CCF stores.</p>

well i kind of assumed he meant bob drives bobs kid and xyz other pupils to the start point rather than bob driving just bobs kid to the start point.

i can see how that risk assessment would fail at the first hurdle.

To clarify; if I am providing transport to a duke of Edinburgh walk, I have to provide a full risk assessment for the minibus, including how I deal with potential hazards such as "pupils distracting the driver." If the bus was full and a parent offers to drive two kids, they are not covered by the council insurance, so that( and thus the whole walk) has no chance of getting passed through the council. As my walk ends at Linn o' Quoich my responsibility for the pupils ends on completion of the walk as we do not offer transport home. As they are no longer on a school visit, they organise parents cars to take them home. In my 12 years experience of organising both doe awards and school trips abroad,the adoption of policies like this are usually driven by parental complaint, and the council legal dept seeking to avoid litigation.

That's interesting, duckman. As a volunteer helper on DoE canoe training and travelling to expeditions, I'm sure there must be a reason why you can finish the trip at the end of the walk, but not start it at the beginning of the walk, but I can't think what it is; can you clarify please? If anything, I'd expect the other way about, since the start time is fixed but the end time is variable.

Hi OP, as mentioned above the school probably has to hire people in to supervise the groups when they are out. The qualifications required to supervise most Gold expeditions is the Mountain Leader, which is a very difficult and expensive qualification to achieve - some schools will be lucky enough to have 1 or 2 MLs on their staff but others wont.

You're not tied to doing the DofE at your school (nor is the school obliged to offer it) so if you're not happy with the cost then look to see if there are other groups in your area that might be able to run the scheme at a lower cost. I think this part of the DofE website is the right bit:  https://www.dofe.org/opportunity-finder/opportunity-for-dofe-participant/

Good Luck to you and your daughter!

Greybeard, I assume it is because I am providing transport to the start. Coincidentally, the open unit was a lot less regulated, there was only one Gold group and it was 4 cars to the start and nightcap for the helpers.

duckman

Why would I make that up?

I'm not sure that purveyors of fakenews are necessarily making it up - but perhaps either intentionally or inadvertently misrepresenting the facts.   You said:

There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.

The fact you know there is more to this than you present is actually pretty much exactly what fakenews is!  Rarely is it totally made up its just you only presented 1/2 the information to make your angle more impactful.  In reality you know you can provide no transport and the issue goes away - in fact parents CAN drive their children to the trip in their own cars.  As it happens I don't believe that there is actually an insurance issue even if you did as you tried - although someone in your LA legal department may be making a meal out of it.  Its not that uncommon for a parent (at non-DOE activities) to drop off or pick up a child from an event separately from the rest of the group to fit with other commitments.  THAT child's start/finish points are just defined separately.

I have to provide risk assessments for private cars if they are used to ferry pupils to an activity or they aren’t covered by the council insurance.

I'm not sure anyone would expect them to be covered by council insurance.  Many organisations manage this stuff all the time without making a hash of it.  I'm not surprised that a LA can make a hash of it; I'm a bit surprised that anyone who can be responsible for a group of teenagers on a 4 day hike with minimal supervision/intervention isn't also able to sit down with the relevant person at the council and point out the stupidity of the bollox they are making up, or find a workable solution.  Almost certainly nobody has even consulted their insurers!  Many years ago I worked with a uniformed youth organisation which used to hide behind bullshit insurance clauses.  Two classics were "we weren't insured unless in uniform" and "we weren't insured for camping".  The former was just myth passed down from person to person - when I spoke to the insurer they were adamant we were covered for any officially organised activity; the latter was true - but when I asked what it would cost to cover a specific camping trip - the answer was "no change to the premium".  So I am always sceptical about insurance being used as an excuse.

Likewise if I had a people carrier and along with another teacher in the car, took pupils on a trip I would have to declare it and pay more on my car insurance.

A teacher using their car to ferry pupils around is a very different prospect from a parent ferrying their own, or a friend's children around, that should be obvious and certainly moves you at least into a grey area as to whether it is "business use" or "social domestic and pleasure".  I can tell you that at least some insurers will issue a letter confirming that if you are doing the activity on an entirely voluntary basis, which is not part of your specific job, is outside normal school hours and not receiving any time off in lieu you are deemed to be performing the task on a "social domestic and pleasure" basis and are covered.  I've heard of other insurers who extend to business use in these circumstances for no additional charge.

Actually, can't be arsed.

@poly that's a very long post picking holes in duckman's reasoning. It's probably worth bearing in mind that he's doing what the LA tell him to do in order to provide an extracurricular activity that he's doing on his own spare time.

I'm curious to hear how much of your free time (and money) you've given to help supervise DofE?

I’m curious to hear how much of your free time (and money) you’ve given to help supervise DofE?

None, too busy picking holes in people on the internet!

Apologies for the grump this morning all. I was tired.

I still stand by:

Volunteers are a) still meeting high standards of responsibility (see Duckmans post) and b) giving of valuable time and effort that has a high value in financial terms and societal terms. It's a pleasure, but don't ever think it's a jolly. It's ofteno bloody hard work. This year I gave 4 holiday days and three weekends to DofE trips, when I could have been taking my own kids out or doing what I wanted.

Commercial providers meet the stadards above and have to make a living. It's been a careers worth of frustration that outdoor education is seen as 'a jolly' and therefore not valued or remunerated acceptably. Mid £20k would be a really good wage for many in the outdoors, £30k very rare. Yet these instructors can offer life changing experience - positive ones when it goes well, life ending of they get it wrong.

Overheads are also high and increasing, especially transport. We restrict the miles we do now.

In the light of how much we value DofE, paying our funding (money or/and volunteer time) £250-450 seems reasonable.

I've now had a few parents complain at costs (we charge £55 for bronze and silver and used commercial company for qualifying gold) this year. One, pair of GP's, complained at Gold cost this year, and then took family of 5 on three week USA tour in nice hotels, helicopter flights etc. I'm fed up of that attitude from individuals.

As a society, why do we provide maths teachers in all schools, with multimillion pounds of school building, yet rarely provide outdoor education teacher and matching funding?

Once again, sorry for arsey reply. I'm fed up

Wasn't alway like that Matt, every authority had an outdoor house/centre at one time. But yeah; good point about the lack of value given to outdoor ed. I would happily be a plasterer living in Dundee without knowing what was on my doorstep if I hadn't been lucky enough to be dragged up the hills as a young in.

Backtracking to the idea that you can do a practise and qualifying in one 8-9 day block: you can’t. Or at least DofE regs say you can’t, but it sounds like some people are offering it anyway. Terrible idea! Think of the feet 🙁

Wow! My daughter did DofE Gold, finishing recently and the cost was <£100. Teachers gave their time FOC and the school did say it was subsided a bit, but I had no idea it was so expensive at other schools. DofE is a big commitment but very worthwhile.

I used to run DoE in my school. I no longer do so, I was forced to give it up.

I am an experienced teacher, 30 yrs in secondary education. A small school, approx 500 pupils (at a 26% FSM rate) and a small staff. Prior to teaching, I worked as an instructor in various establishments in Wales. Many, many years of experience rock-climbing, kayaking, rafting, hill walking, alpine mountaineering, mtb. Multi-day trips etc. For decades I have stayed behind after school for approx 2 hrs twice a week to boost pupils learning at well attended sessions. So- Monday= meeting day. Tuesday =boost session, Wednesday= me time, Thursday= boost session, Friday = me time. Tuesday session was set aside for DoE, Thursday for GCSE revision/ enhancement. I have a mini-bus (and trailer!) ticket, so that made life slightly easier- provided that the county Council officers in the Transport dept in Llanelli could be bothered to actually appear when they were supposed to in the morning, allowing me to get the vehicle.

Headteacher suggested one day that DoE would no longer be 'supported' in school because our efforts should go into raising academic standards. Thus, I found myself with no reliable support. I tried to continue things with what support I could drum up but it became increasingly difficult so in the end I just gave it up once the role had been passed onto the resident Youth Worker. I continue to mentor him as best I can/ time allows and help out as and when I can. The scheme has pretty much ceased in the school now.

If a (training)ecpedition was up coming I would pre-visit the weekend before, have a normal working week, a weekend with very little sleep and then a normal full week afterwards, i.e a 14 day stint. It drains you after a while.

I'm sad that the scheme is not really working in my school but tbh I'm not at all surprised. It needs support at all levels, not just from volunteers who seem to be expected to just get on and do it.

I’ll take another bite...

my daughter is a teacher. Her first week of a summer holiday is spent stripping/refitting her classroom(primary school) after a “deep clean”  Her last week is spent visiting parents of the kids deemed @risk/in need, preparing lessons, organising specialists etc for said kids...  then there are the weekends we take her kids so that she can do reports on said kids with “needs” of which there are many....  she is also the senior first aider,  arts co ordinator and now music co ordinator

As for DofE my son benefitted greatly, he got his first job due to the fact he was in the process of doing his gold @18. His original school group disintegrated a few time during the bronze to gold phase. His gold expedition took place in the Black Forest, Germany(2 weeks away) That was 20yrs ago and it would seem not much has changed...

He a.ready had a job @14 from his schools work experience scheme working in a car parts shop. From DofE he got a pool life guard qualification followed by a job at our local pool. He also started training as a leader for both DofE and his scout group. Foot & Mouth scuppered my ML course. He left school, got an apprenticeship then moved away from home before completing his DofE training. Scout hut suffered an arson attack and group folded/amalgamated so that came to an end!!!

We will be encouraging our grand kids to enrol whenever they have the opportunity

A good reminder of the benefits of DofE Trekster. Life improving and changing stuff.

Lapierrelady, yeah the commercial groups sometimes are just churning them through obviously money versus experience. I'm not sure how heavily hinted at the route planning part would be and I'm not sure how they get round the 8week green form submission (well I am they block book an area and use their own assessors).

CHB all school staff I know do it free of charge. The only things my staff have had are a curry on the night before (to go through final points) and a couple of bottles of beer. Money for that comes out of my pocket (them being there helps me and I want to keep good staff). In the dozen or so years I've been doing it I've not received one bit of personal kit.

It's now been deemed that I don't have the experience (ticket) to even take bronze expeds out. I will need to give up another weekend to be allowed to take bronze and two more for a lowland leader award (should have done my ml assessment when Glenmore lodge suggested).

Hahaha Lowland leader award! Shutting gates and shooing Collier into a landrover course you mean! ( sorry)

Duckers yep, we've got a young teacher who I'm pretty much training in outdoors. Who is apparently more experienced than me because he has his lowland leader (term used). Last exped he managed to not find a disused railway. Funny how quickly they backed down on the "experience" card when I suggested he run the exped.

I feel your pain, I had to do it 12 years ago when I started teaching (called walking group leader at that point) I didn't do the 6 weekends training and just turned up for the assessment as I could nav in all weathers, was used to working with kids and kind of went up the hills most weekends. Folk in the group were being asked to get the group to a huge river. I got a cairn that had been pulled over during logging...oh and a 3m wide kettlehole ..on a plateau. Got given a pass through gritted teeth. I was allowed a defer on the ML training; but chose to do it, I would say that it set me up well for the assessment, knowing EXACTLY what they wanted to see us doing. Just in case that is a decision you will be taking.

Probably will ml Glenmore lodge used to do a 2 day refresh, I might do that before assessment.

I did that as well, If you have a mate who is switched on with Nav, walk from the Lecht to Glenmore with his making you lead all the way. Terrible weather and him being enough of a dick to make you want to chin him would add realism as well. That sums up the exped for me.

I did my Summer ML with PyB; we had heavy snow during it, so it was more like winter ML. They deferred the security on steep ground day as they weren't prepared to run it in the conditions, so we had to go back to complete it.

Duckman, 100th - is ML or LL actually a requirement from DoE or is this LA’s adding an extra layer of regulation on top?  I can understand why LAs get paranoid about this shit but given DOE provide specific training on the slightly different skill set of remotely supervising groups from leading them I wonder why...

interestingly I think 25+ yrs ago the DoE group that ran at my school, which was run by two teachers made a points about not being an official school activity perhaps to avoid much of this nonsense?  I can imagine it will have got worse.

poly - risk assess the activity.

IF your leading a group into terrain that is deemed low hills or mountain (height dependant) and you or someone in your group dont have the qualifications - your risk assessment for the group has failed.

Doing it by the seat of your pants or getting disclaimers signed will not end well should there be an issue. Deemed the responsible leader you are liable for the outcome.

is ML or LL actually a requirement from DoE?

I would hope so, it is the correct qualification for the activity.

I’m curious to hear how much of your free time (and money) you’ve given to help supervise DofE?

Stevious - I don’t keep a log, but enough that I feel qualified to have an opinion.  Just this morning I was completing eDoE assessments for the latest round of Bronze award holders.  These ones weren’t even from the group my son is part of but were a favour for another group nearby.

if duckman posts misleading information in public that might put off others from volunteering for DOE because he implies it’s an insurance nightmare/paperwork headache then he needs called out on it.  If it’s his LA that is at fault then he is probably better placed than anybody to effect change.

Trailrat - but you aren’t leading them they are supposed to be leading themselves.  In many ways you have a much harder task - perhaps more akin to that of a ML assessor/tutor!

I don’t do DoE expeditions “on foot” so don’t know what the rules are, but as far as I can see DOE don’t stipulate any specific qualification.  Certainly a ML cert might be one way to demonstrate the competence needed but so might 15 yrs experience and one of the Doe specific courses that focus on the particular challenges of the scheme.  Making someone who is perfectly capable go and collect bits of paper isn’t how the scheme is intended to work.

@poly - I'm sure you'll appreciate that from the exped leader's POV, we have to abide by whatever our Licensing Authority tell us whether we agree or not - they provide us with the license/insurance to provide outdoor activities and have people who are paid to come up with their outdoor activity policies. I certainly don't have the time/energy/patience to fit policy development alongside volunteering/having a job/etc.

Similarly the qualification requirements vary between Authorities. DofE don't specify a qualification level as the nature of the expeds varies a lot - there isn't a specified 'terrain type' for each type of exped to allow the award to be as inclusive as possible. This means that each LA will have to make its own judgement as to whether an individual is qualified to lead the activity - I think it's pretty sensible to base this on a nationally recognised qualification framework to take out a lot of guesswork and grey areas. The training that is provided by DofE is centred around making the exped successful and meaningful for the candidates. The NGB qualifications are designed to make sure the expeds can be delivered safely.

but you aren’t leading them they are supposed to be leading themselves.  In many ways you have a much harder task – perhaps more akin to that of a ML assessor/tutor!

An ML assessor/tutor needs to be qualified to MIA level (considered to be about the same level as a degree). This is in order to supervise and assess trained and experienced individuals.

The NGB awards aren't just about leading groups through the hills, they are about managing the safety of people in the outdoors.

Ah right; you don’t do “assessments on foot, so don’t know what the rules are” but are qualified to tell people who do what risk assessments/ qualifications we should have. Based on your lack of understanding of the practicalities of managing a group outdoors I am glad you don’t walk...sorry do assessments on foot.

Footflaps: bronze; lowland leader. Silver: lowland leader, above 800m/ crossing water ML.

ALL gold;  ML.

NOW; that is my experience in two different Ed authorities, a BB unit and a council open unit. I am sure Poly will appear shortly to correct me.

Stevious - Similarly the qualification requirements vary between Authorities. DofE don’t specify a qualification level as the nature of the expeds varies a lot – there isn’t a specified ‘terrain type’ for each type of exped to allow the award to be as inclusive as possible. This means that each LA will have to make its own judgement as to whether an individual is qualified to lead the activity – I think it’s pretty sensible to base this on a nationally recognised qualification framework to take out a lot of guesswork and grey areas.

Thank you, that answers the question I originally asked.  I'm not convinced it is the best way as I've seen people with NGB quals who aren't really competent, but I accept for someone in an office who wants to tick boxes it probably covers their arse.

Duckman  - I don't think I suggested anywhere how to do a risk assessment.  I questioned the apparent need for specific NGB quals, as my experience (with the Scouts, and in particular afloat) was that they were not particularly focussed on bits of paper but were much more interested in the capabilities and experience of those involved.  I'm not suggesting the Scouts have it right - but they are managing to run a very large number of DOE awards (mostly without incident) but, bringing us back "on topic" at seemingly significantly less cost.

No, you questioned both my statements on risk assessments and insurance. In fact even going to the point of accusing me of lying (twice) Just out of curiosity; what is your relevant experience that allows you to judge whether qualifications are competent?  You have admitted you don't lead groups.

I am rubbish at posting pics on here, but hopefully  that one shows the patch my local Scouts gave me after I ML'ed their walk along the Speyside way. After they were told to get an ML....by the Scouts...

https://flic.kr/p/NpwwuZ tried again!

Of course perhaps it also speaks volumes for the types and remoteness of terrain to be encountered while on their Expeds.

Duckman and my wife both do theirs in similar places for neighbouring LA's.

It's almost expected that the exped will be in the Cairngorms and there are a number of infamous cases where school kids have been led to their death in there  by people who thought they were competent.

It comes down to what happens if it all goes base over apex.

AALA and whoever else will want a papertrail of various types at present they will happily accept an 18yo with a LL/ml as having proof of ability over a 45yo with boots on the ground experience.  Councils the rulings in order to avoid being sued.

No one, at present needs a ticket to lead anything in the outdoors, but if you owned an outdoor company would you employ folk with no tickets?

Counter to that I sent a supervisor home from an exped in Galloway because he lost a member of his group and split the rest because he fancied to more challenging decent. He was summer/winter ml, ex RAF mountain rescue and ticketed up the bahookie but was a rubbish supervisor.

Just googling MLTB and noticed that the official text has changed, no longer the classic "Mountain Craft and Leadership" and now something called "Hillwalking" - when did that change?

100th - I think you have managed to make the point about qualification I was trying to make more effectively than I did.   One point to note though is that AALA don't regulate volunteer or school groups training their own pupils.  That might seem like an omission but I believe is intentional because those groups are assumed to be better placed to assess competence themselves, knowing the individuals and their experience, than when hiring in a "professional" on an ad hoc basis.  It may be council's don't understand that.  Likewise when AALA was set up I attended a workshop that HSE/AALA ran which very clearly said that NGB qualifications alone should not be presumed to be evidence of competence.  I don't know if that is still their position.

Duckman - "You have admitted you don’t lead groups." - no I haven't because that would be untrue.  You have inferred that from what I wrote.  You are clearly pissed off with what I wrote about your claims around insurace, I'll stand by what I said - they were misleading, and its that sort of thing that puts off other volunteers because they believe everything is a paperwork nightmare.

Poly they were accurate statements based on my LA policy, others have backed councils demanding that level of risk assessment up, you not willing to believe that or suggesting that we should change it from within, as you did to a couple of us doesn't make that level of RA untrue, it just suggests that you don't have experience of an LA award. Oh; and the AALA don't licence school groups because they fall under the remit of the LA and aren't run as businesses, even the mandatory open unit every council has a commitment to run....but I am sure you knew that.

Poly they were accurate statements based on my LA policy, others have backed councils demanding that level of risk assessment up, you not willing to believe that or suggesting that we should change it from within, as you did to a couple of us doesn’t make that level of RA untrue, .

I still don't think I've mentioned the phrase risk assessment anywhere!  I'm not saying its not what you've been told but if you'd put the effort into arguing with me into having a sensible discussion with your LA you might just find that either someone there is "over-interpreting" their rules or can help you out with the challenges you are facing (e.g. suggesting as others did that you make all the pupils get themselves to the start or splitting the group in 2 and one group is "self" transporting, or who knows - finding you a second minibus and driver!).

Oh; and the AALA don’t licence school groups because they fall under the remit of the LA and aren’t run as businesses,

Eh, I think what I said was consistent with that: "AALA don’t regulate volunteer or school groups training their own pupils." It was 100thflr who implied they do.    But just in case you are being pedantic - being run under the auspices of a LA is not an exemption for the AALA.  LA outdoor centres have to be AALA accredited, regardless of whether they are run for profit or not (s3(1)b); and non-LA schools are exempt even if the school is fee paying (s3(2)b).

even the mandatory open unit every council has a commitment to run….but I am sure you knew that.

Well I didn't know that every council was required to run one, so that is something new.  Potentially it offers a possible "lower cost" option for the OP if he's still following the thread?

No, you suggested they didn't regulate school groups to try and make a point about competence to lead groups. To be honest I am glad you "don't do assessments on foot" it would be an accident in the making. Not all is lost though, To paraphrase yourself, the amount of time you have spent being a self appointed expert of sweet fa on here you could have had a Summer and Winter ML in the bag.

Wow! My daughter did DofE Gold, finishing recently and the cost was <£100. Teachers gave their time FOC and the school did say it was subsided a bit, but I had no idea it was so expensive at other schools

It varies so much depending on how the school structures it. A big pool of voluntary staff will mean lower costs. Having to buy in external staff either because of a lack of suitably experienced / qualified volunteers or to meet demand will bump costs right up.

If schools want to put huge numbers through it it's just not practical or fair to expect staff to give up that much time voluntarily. As others have pointed out this is one of the ways in which the award has outgrown it's original ethos / structure.

I brought up AALA because, I think, in the case of something going to court "gold standards" will be referred to AALA being one such body. I know that our councils OE body is scared shitless of AALA and is applying what they suggi across the board. So we must comply.

Well, if you got latest DofE email, we are all having a couple of hours wander in the park and staying at hotels, with less supervision, no purpose and no practice at Bronze.

At a stroke, decades of DofE'rs just got got done over and Tarquin can put DofE on his CV for minimal effort, and therefore impact.

Grrrrr

You are remotely supervising a group rather than leading them. So theoretically you can supervise the exped, but not take them training! It does depend who the LA is...some schools are their own LAs which makes things very interesting re training/ risk assessments

Yeah Matt, I got the email. Apparently the expedition was the least completed section. Seems bizarre to me as the kids always want to do the expedition and never bother chasing assessors for the rest!

Yes but in schools it's pretty much assumed that the remote supervision or not you are responsible for the group and it's safety. You should have checked routes etc

I've been licence holder at an independent school and I had to be damn sure if we had a faeces fan interface all bases were covered. But then my managers trusted me and were willing to fly top cover.

@matt well that sucks.

@johnnystorm bronze completed and silver expeditions in the bag here, never got the rest done but tbh the walk was the best bit even if it was a killer (turns out our leader was a sadist and only ever sent us to the worst midge infested hellholes across Scotland).