[Closed] D of E equipment- best cash vs weight

Decathlon do good, cheap rucksacks. Might be worth a look?

Hi Gear stuff is often a false economy - I've thrown out more Gellert / Hi Gear kit than I care to think about.

As you imply....cheap, light, durable, compact...pick 1?

A £20 rucsac is not going to last.

You're gonna have to spend more than the bare minimum, how much is up to you.

Decathlon every time.

I bought my kids their day packs as school bags a couple of years ago knowing that they'd trash them - they still look as good as new.

Check sports pursuit for a rucksack.. Bought a 4F rucksack for £25 not long ago and its actually ok. There were some good deals on POD rucksacks too on the pod website.
Alpkit for sleeping bag and mattress

It is very likely to be 10 x worse. A rucksack needs to fit your back distribute weight comfortably be easy to take off and put on plus hold all your gear securely and keep the weather out . Quite frankly if you are doing the DofE then the comfort of your rucksack will make all the difference.

Ignore the price

But do try the bag with a load

Does the pack need to be 65l?

Decathlon or Vango for specific outdoor gear like tents and sleeping bags.

Can you borrow stuff? You can often borrow lighter and better, in return for some chocolate or cake 🙂

Don't forget baselayers - they are much better than t-shirts, and with some long leggings will 'boost' a less good / lighter sleeping bag. Cheap, thin fleeces are uber cheap at TKMaxx usually (ignore the brand).

Buy light waterproofs - its amazing how many people turn up in be-pocketed, heavy waterproofs.

OR

Go and find it second hand - Outdoor Gear Exchange on Facebook is OK, but be fussy, as there is some crap that is overpriced on there.

Oh, and think long and hard about food and what you *really* need to take.

If you don't plan on using it, you don't need it 'in case'.

You don't need hairbrushes, deoderant, books, phone (and charger 🙄 ), a spare cotton hoody, a towel etc etc.

Food can often be a huge load.

phone (and charger )

You wot?

Howdoes one hashtag ones selfies onto twitter etc?!

😆

I even had one lad unpack a portable DVD player on kit check before an assessment....

Your LA have kit stores with packs,bags etc all available for rent.
I will see your DVD and raise you an electric hairdryer.

[quote=matt_outandabout ]You don't need hairbrushes, deoderant, books, phone (and charger ), a spare cotton hoody, a towel etc etc.
Food can often be a huge load.

We did a hut to hut ski tour a few years ago. I had a 45L pack, mrs aracer had one of my 30L MM packs. Other folks with 65L packs. I probably had more useful safety gear - other people were carrying rubbish like that (one woman had a handbag 🙄 )

The strange thing though is that when I did DofE I had a 65L pack and filled it. Can't help feeling it would have been a lot more enjoyable if I'd carried half the amount of kit. But then I went out for an evening run up a mountain (carrying a 20L pack) a few weeks ago and probably covered about as much ground as we used to do in a DofE day.

Wilkinsons do a decent looking gas stove for £8 - copy of an MSR pocket rocket, though for D of E a Trangia is hard to beat.

We got some Vango Sherpa rucksacks for our school dofe groups and after maybe 10 uses they are starting to come apart at the seams.

Snugpak for bag
Thermarest Z Lite for mat

I'd try and borrow stuff.

My Tesco rucksack is going strong 10 years down the line, cost me about £30, around 60L.

Shame they didn't repeat their down sleeping bag though, always first to be grabbed in our house, small, light, warm and cheap.

That Wilko stove looks good, I have a similar unbranded one, never failed me. I'd rather have screw on gas stove and some decent foil for a windbreak than a trangia unless weight and availabilty of fuel was a huge deal, assuming warmish weather.

But yes, borrow for a one off trip. Whereabouts are you, we have a ton of stuff here?

Rucksacks are a try and buy and size would depend on kit,
Stoves would depend on type of foods and then a choice of fuels.
I have both fuels and if solo I use a Zelph Starlyte and weighs in at 14grams
But a small gas pocket Rocket or an Alpkit would probably be best route
Put together with an Alpkit multipot 900 is great for drinking and eating out of.

Sleeping bag rating and weight would depend on where you are going to use it
Sleeping mat I use the MultiMat super light 25 it's self inflating with an high R rating

Karrimor Z mat copy, costs £10, weighs nothing, wont puncture. Slept on one like a rock on one on Kinder -4C ealier this year.

Thanks for the suggestions. He's the first in the family to do D of E so I just don't know what to expect. How good the sleeping bag needs to be etc (what the extremes of temperature will be) . I don't mind buying new cos it'll get used for regular car camping.

Sleeping bags really depends on what time of year, also depends on how tall and how much growing is left. A nice 3 season down is great for most UK stuff in you have a bit of toughness for winter. A self inflating matt is miles better than any foam mat.

Last time I did anything like that managed in a 55l bag for 3 days including 10l of water (there was no water on the route at all) That was with a nice light 2 man tent split between 2 and food/stoves split.
Trangiers may be good but they are slow and you end up with bottles of meths, a stable small gas stove will be quicker with a pan set.

Rucksack fit is king but also if still grownng it becomes harder to get one to last.

Seem to recall there were rules about what you had to carry on DoE that made 65l rucksacks a necessity? Been a few threads discussing how it needed to modernise itself, don't know if it did.

I had to choose between Scouts or DoE as a kid, stuck with Scouts but think I missed out a little, despite all I did with Scouts. Always admire those little lines of ants with waterproof orange rucksack covers yomping up distant Derbyshire hills from March onwards. Seem to be predominantly girls nowadays as well.

Which level?
Unless it's changed in the last 35 years (likely I guess) Bronze and Silver don't need huge ruck sacks, Gold maybe. Depends if your child is planning on doing all three.

What I would advise is going to decathlon or go outdoors with an equivalent amount of weight to the kit list, then actually trying each rucksack loaded. Picking one which fits the shoulder and back shape of your kid can make the difference between a few days of purgatory and a much better experience.

Kids usually have 65l bags, they carry loads of stuff, but then they haven't really learnt/understood what the need. My bergen I usually 45l when supervising/assessing.

Did have a kid turn up with a spare tent once.

Worth bearing in mind that if you buy a decent rucksack it might get good use in a few years time if the young un heads off travelling or on a gap year, so it might be worth buying a half decent one.

OP, we were in the same position a few months ago with eldest daughter. We borrowed a rucksack and bought a vango sleeping bag as the one she had only went down to about 8C!
Re the sleep mats I ended up buying a s/h thermarest on ebay and a new Alpkit Numo then gave her the choice. Numo won and she said it was very comfy.
Re stoves, I was prepared to buy her a rocket or similar but in the end she used the provided meths stove as it turned out that, because you do things as a team, you should share a stove. She said it was fine.
Keen it simple and as cheap as possible - being warm. dry and comfy are the most important things - a cheap rucksack really may not help.

Don't whatever you do get a down bag for someone on D of E. They'll get it wet and they'll be miserable.

Some of the stuff Onehundredthidiot's charges used to take and indeed leave at their arses was ridiculous.

We borrowed a rucksack and bought a vango sleeping bag as the one she had only went down to about 8C!

I don't remember the kit list being particularly onerous, but the hired kit was quite heavy and bulky, big thick polyester sleeping bags, heavy tents, thick foam mats*, trangia etc.

*don't forget that foam mats are typically half the weight of a thermarest, they're just bulky.

Packing a bergen correctly is really important - are they getting taught how to do this?

I know it's a hang up from Army days, but things like pre-talced spare socks each in individual wterproof bags (food bags) tucked away, heavy stuff at the bottom, but make sure warm kit (fleece) and waterproof is easily accesable at the top. Be good to have a dry bag in there as well, with the sleeping bag in a separate one. Bergen cover is essential, not just for keeping stuff dry, but it will help keep weight down when it gets sodden.

Avoid stuff "hanging off", it's annoying when moving. Fold/Roll all clothes up - don't just stuff - an oversized load will hurt the back no matter how good the bergen is. Get an inflatable roll mat, i know they are no lighter than a foam thing, but they are far more comfortable. Keep loose straps tapped up as well, they will swing around, catch an eye or get caught Don't get an ex-military one, whilst they are very good -they are very heavy and not particularly good for long distances.

If you wear clothes in a sleeping bag it makes a big difference, so assuming they will be vaguely dry under their waterproofs, a thick fleece will add 5-10 degrees to a sleeping bag rating.

The single biggest factor I've found, to how warm / cold you sleep, is a good meal at dinner!

If you wear clothes in a sleeping bag it makes a big difference, so assuming they will be vaguely dry under their waterproofs, a thick fleece will add 5-10 degrees to a sleeping bag rating.

General consensus is to utilise the sleeping bag without wearing too many clothes down to the rating ti's intended, it's something i certainly noticed on long very cold nights whilst pi55 wet through on the hills, it seems counter-intuitive, but it does work, The warm air needs to circulate within the bag to be fully effective, but by all accounts keep some clothing inside the bag (fleece trousers, socks) for when you wake up.

Depend on the time of year, no point taking a bulky 3 season bag if it's Mid august and 13C overnight

Depends

One of my Highland DofE trips was snowing in August and -3....

Where is OP doing the trip?

Cotswold outdoor do a range of 'DofE approved' kit.
I'm not suggesting you dash out and buy it all there, but it might be worth a look to see what you should be looking for elsewhere..?
Decathlon is a good call - and you can try the rucsac on.

I'm a DofE expedition assessor for Scouts - You'd be amazed at some of the crap kids bring - walking in Jeans is a good example, or big heavy waterproof jackets in the summer. tins of food is another good one.

On the day they return get them to take stuff out of bag, making two piles. What I used and what I didn't. That'll help with next time.

Cotswold outdoor do a range of [s]'DofE approved'[/s] s[b]elf promoted kit by manufacturers looking to sell more kit to kids on DofE[/b] kit.

Thanks again.
He's only just signed up so not sure when he will start, but he's going to do more stuff in the explorers this year as well.
Down is out anyway due to allergies, so synthetic sleeping bag.
What is a good fit with regard to the ruck sack? Maybe Decathlon will check that.
Keen on a Ti mug and tiny gas stove from Alpkit, (for me) or will he have make proper meals rather than pasta/ porridge etc.

Keen on a Ti mug

Despite my otherwise hardline stance against Hi Gear, this is ace:

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/hi-gear-backpack-cookset-p287230

Pan and mug, pan has a heat exchanger. Perfect size to fit a gas can inside along with a small stove, the coffee filter I papped on about earlier, your coffee and spoon / spork, with room to spare. And it weighs nowt. Heartily recommended.

Thinking back to my first backpacking days (many moons ago) the thing I struggled with was decent meals on the fells. It's not something many books cover at all. It's worth practicing meals and timing cooking time etc so you know how long they take, how much gas they use etc.

Cougar- yeah, I love that. I bought a primus eta job recently which has a wind shield and a pan with a heat exchanger. It boils water so quickly we would all gather round and watch whenever we fired it up, it is bonkers, but too big for backpacking. I was looking for a small version, and this looks spot on.

I shall rephrase my earlier post.... OP, check with your lads school before you buy anything. My daughters school loans out tents, rucksacks, sleep mats, cookers and cooking equipment.
They do not allow you to take your own stove for various reasons... ymmv.
It doesn't make a lot of sense buying some stuff that may well only be used for two nights.

[quote=jkomo ]Keen on a Ti mug and tiny gas stove from Alpkit, (for me) or will he have make proper meals rather than pasta/ porridge etc.

When I did DofE and the like they were keen on boil in the bag food (I was already showing my weight weenie tendencies and wanting to take dehydrated food).

Personally I'm not a big fan of ti mugs anyway - they tend to be heavier than an alu trangia pan and the heat transfer isn't actually as good (and certainly a lot heavier than the foil takeaway containers I use if going properly lightweight - though I suspect DofE assessors might not approve of my proper lightweight kit selection).

Incidentally how do you get into being a DofE assessor? It's something I'd been thinking about.

Aracer find a local group tag along for a few expends, do the assessors course. As for food I now take "look what we found" boil in a bag heated in a ti mug then hot water used to make packet couscous, mix together tasty. Bodum cafetière mug and real coffee is my luxury.

All D of E providers have access to kit to be loaned out. This is often decent kit and replaced often. Try out that first, for maybe the Bronze level. Then if you/your kid likes it then they can buy some better kit that will last them longer.

All I'd buy in the first instance is a sleeping bag liner and decent socks.

Aracer, I did mine by volunteering thought the council. They have lots of courses going on. Its nice to do.

With loading the pack, isn't it heavy things at the top not the bottom? I think the army approach is the other way because the bergens sit higher above your webbing and they're much bigger packs, and it's usually the reserve ammo that's heaviest and stability when moving rapidly matters more than comfort.

One weird thing about sleeping bags - you can need quite a bit more warmth than you'd think if you 'sleep cold'. When riding a bike I'll still be in my summer clothes in the winter when my mates are all wrapped up but camping in the UK in the in the spring/summer I'm much happier in a 4 season bag than my old 2-3 season one!

Depends on how hardcore the organiser is. We got away with 30ltr sacks for our bronze and silver. But teacher in charge changed as we were doing fell bagging in a heatwave with 65ltr sacks and 4ltrs of water for gold.

I think a 50-55ltr sack with careful packing would see you right for all three levels; just stay away from the Trangias!

his is often decent kit and replaced often. Try out that first, for maybe the Bronze level.

Yep, we had some old but good terranova tents and vango sacks which saved a few pennies.

Incidentally how do you get into being a DofE assessor? It's something I'd been thinking about.

I'd guess you'd need something like Summer Mountain Leader Award as a start.

chiefgrooveguru - Member
With loading the pack, isn't it heavy things at the top not the bottom? I think the army approach is the other way because the bergens sit higher above your webbing and they're much bigger packs, and it's usually the reserve ammo that's heaviest and stability when moving rapidly matters more than comfort.

possibly, though i remember being massivley overloaded (high on back) with HE trying to run out the back of a chinook and i couldn't get up of the deck without the aid of two other blokes pulling me up..

But as others have said, and i don't know if it is different to between "cadets" and scout stuff, but we had to use the issue stuff (bergens, trangiers, sleeping bags etc), you could bring other stuff but they dodn't want to overload you.

On the cooking point, I must say having been in various environments, i went from using Hexy, to using gas, to using jet boil, back to using hexy, it's so much more versatile and as long as you have some grass, or old tea bags they wash up quick and easy. They aslo provid hours of entertainment as you through on powdered milk and sugar and watch them fireworks..

Get yourself in to Cotswold Outdoor with your DofE kit list and ask them. You'll get a DofE discount and some great advice and answer all of your questions above. They even price match if the discount isn't the cheapest.

Vango kit is reasonable for the money, but not the lightest. Unless you've got very deep pockets you're not gonna ket super light quality kit.

No one has mentioned boots yet either. Your money should go on comfortable boots and a comfortable pack first.

[quote=Sui ]On the cooking point, I must say having been in various environments, i went from using Hexy, to using gas, to using jet boil, back to using hexy, it's so much more versatile and as long as you have some grass, or old tea bags they wash up quick and easy. They aslo provid hours of entertainment as you through on powdered milk and sugar and watch them fireworks..

My superlight cooking kit uses hex - though I made myself a stove out of tin cans which vastly improves the airflow so it burns blue rather than yellow, hence burns hotter and more efficiently so boils water faster and uses less fuel. As a bonus it creates a lot less soot.