D-Day 😢

Indeed very dusty here too.

I'm watching it on the BBC 1 channel. Sir Tom Jones has just sung and his voice (he's 84 tomorrow) is utterly amazing.

It's probably the last time this gathering will happen and we must not forget. My own grandpa would never talk about his time as a sergeant major in WW2. How I wished I'd had the courage to ask a few questions. He was my hero (not some overpaid goalscorer).

Edit: Last year we bike packed along the Northern French coast and visited Utah beach. The museum there is very good indeed. Hoping to visit the British one in the near future.

The stories are undoubtedly moving, and I can't imagine the terror of running up a beach in full kit whilst your mates are dropping like flies around you, but, and I ask this with all compassion, at what point do we have to move on?

at what point do we have to move on?

We should never move on.

and I ask this with all compassion, at what point do we have to move on?

A fair question. When we are not governed by dangerous men who might take us down that path again?

at what point do we have to move on?

Given that Europe is in the middle of a territory based war, and far right/ nationalist parties are either in power in several countries, or are increasing their vote share in many others, I'd answer "Not Yet" to your question.

at what point do we have to move on?

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

-George Santayana

We should never move on.

I'm sorry, but that's a pretty empty statement. I mean, we should remember what happens in war and we should make sure that nothing like that ever happens again, but the history of the world pretty clearly demonstrates that's never going to happen.

And harking back to old victories or defeats and/or how things used to be is the classic ploy of those looking to spread division. It's exactly how Putin is justifying the offensive in Ukraine, see also Make America Great Again, Take Back Control etc etc.

And harking back to old victories or defeats

If you think that today is about that then then you're very wrong.

Given that Europe is in the middle of a territory based war, and far right/ nationalist parties are either in power in several countries, or are increasing their vote share in many others, I’d answer “Not Yet” to your question.

Given that we've been 'not moving on' for the past 80 years, and all that is still happening, I'd answer that 'not moving on' hasn't worked that brilliantly.

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

I was waiting for that one. Mankind has been repeating it's mistakes for thousands of years, a pithy one liner is not going to stop that.

If you think that today is about that then then you’re very wrong.

I don't, I absolutely don't, and apologies that I gave that impression.

We watched a bit of the bbc coverage last night and as James Holland said it's more necessary than ever to see the importance of working together.

And harking back to old victories or defeats and/or how things used to be

Sure but today isn't about that. Today is remembering that - as you said; imagine the terror of running up a beach in full kit whilst your mates are dropping like flies around you 

That's what today is about, nothing more, nothing less, it's just a day to remember those old boys. Like another poster I've been in Caen after a Le Mans, and got chatting to some old Canadians boys who had come over for a visit. One said to me "Even now, our money's no good here, no one will let us pay for anything, hotel room, food, even coffee" just as the waitress  (a teenager) told them that they wouldn't be paying for drinks.

 “Even now, our money’s no good here, no one will let us pay for anything, hotel room, food, even coffee” just as the waitress  (a teenager) told them that they wouldn’t be paying for drinks.

That is incredible.  We [I] didn't really appreciate what it meant to all other in occupied countries..... especially France.

I can’t comprehend what it must have been like on that day or any other. I have had the honour to speak to many vets over the years, from squaddies, Lancaster bomber pilots, airmen including one from the dam buster raids and navy one of which was captain of HMS Bulldog.

Some would talk freely, others would tell you part but most didn’t really say much.

Remembering is good.  Fetishising is not.  There is far far to much fetishising.

(makes all the stupid political bitching on here seem pretty pathetic)

Interesting that you want us to remember and yet you forget that there was a lot of 'political bitching' in the lead up to WW2.

A lot of the political bitching is people pointing out that we are seeing the far right on the rise (don't let whatever Labour's majority ends up being fool you, the overall direction is clear and not just in the UK) and people then disagree on how best to tackle this.  Or argue about if it is an issue at all.

One of my grandfathers was in North Africa, the other was captured at Dunkirk and spent almost all of the war in POW camp in Germany.

Neither of them ever really spoke about it, even to their wives, and took their experiences to their graves.

If I'd been older when they were still alive I'd probably pressed the matter but at the time it was made very clear to me that it was their decision, that these things were not up for discussion and to leave it at that.

Remembering is good.  Fetishising is not.  There is far far to much fetishising.

Absolutely. See, also "1940s Weekends". The people are all "Ooh, didn't the fellas look smart in their uniforms", "ooh look, what a cool old Jeep", "what time is the Spitfire flypast?", conveniently forgetting that the uniforms, Jeeps and Spitfires were around because there was a war on where tens of millions of people were being killed, so using that as a reason to have a cup of tea and a piece of cake and having a little dance to Glenn Miller is pretty effing distasteful.

at what point do we have to move on?

Some would talk freely, others would tell you part but most didn’t really say much.

Yeah, I have read extensively about the two world wars and that is a common theme. An old girlfriend's grandad was a Lancaster pilot in the war and he even had his medals and a picture of his plane on display, but he would never say a word about what he did.

“Yeah sorry mate, you did great at the time, and sorry about all your mates who didn’t come home, but it was 80 years ago GET OVER IT”

If you think that's what I'm saying, you've misunderstood.

Was over there with parents in 94 about 2 months before the 50th anniversary.

Standing in the trenches above omaha is mind blowing.  Hard to imagine anyone got off the beaches.

And the silence in the omaha cemetery is eerie.

It is and will remain important to remember why it happened and to remember those who died.

I would do anything to stop my son having to do what they had to do 80 years ago.  So it remains incredibly important

WW2 - for better or worse is the founding myth of most of the Europe (or the world for that matter)  that we have today. from the shape of countries to what towns are in those countries to the way they developed after to war, to even how they came together after being literally split apart after it, and that was only what? 30 years ago?

While I don't get re-enactors generally, or those that dress up like Nazis specifically, I do see the worth of keeping the vehicles and planes in working order, and I get why my Gran (for instance) chose to remember cake and Glen Miller over the doodlebug that went off at the end of her street.

Moving The discussion slightly, I’m disturbed by the frequent use of the word “Nazi” to describe axis and specifically German forces in some current media, I think it’s dangerous to promote to modern society .  Although we all know there was a strong national socialist ideology at the core of the German political and military leadership, most of the fallen opposing forces were young German soldiers plucked from daily life just like our own not aligned with those politics.

Despite the fact we were defending our country and solidarity we should remember them as millions of brave fallen victims in the same way we do our own IMHO.   Fighting at Normandy wasn’t fighting “Nazi’s”- it was fighting fellow soldiers on opposites sides albeit deployed for a strategy underpinned with different (and atrocious) politics to our own.  We are not innocent of similar within our history - colonialism for example.

TDLR - we should remember the fallen - all of them - and not proliferate historic division.  I’m remebering my Grandads that served today, but - specifically as I work for a German company - being very careful in my vocabulary.

Curious to know what moving on looks like? I think maybe the simplicity of the statement might open it up to being misconstrued negatively?

Outside of these commemorative events and general historical interest, isn't it just back to migrants dying in the channel and dodgy political party funding? I don't feel over-encumbered by the existence nor the practice of remembrance. If you think of WW1, now that it has passed from living memory it has taken a different shape, and there aren't national events for specific campaigns anymore, it is focussed on armistice day and the all-encompassing remembrance day.

For my part, I think these commemorations are very valuable, and they all too quickly pass and some of the sentiments and lessons forgotten. 'Moving on' will happen organically in the near future when it passes out of living memory, and commemorative events reduce and play less and less a part in national life.

My Pa was in the merchant fleet and got sunk two (if not three) times (discharged at sea on his seaman's ticket) and spent weeks rowing in the Atlantic, once to get to Newfoundland and once to the Gold Coast. Fortunately as a Thames lighterman he knew how to row. His response was to be a life-long socialist and supporter of CND (oddly his funeral was on 11.11 at 11am). My FiL Stanley Whalley was a pilot and when visiting where he trained in Arizona a US photographer made a video of him for YT which was a nice memorial.

Edit - as there were more replies before mine. Referring to @ Kryton57

Moving The discussion slightly, I’m disturbed by the frequent use of the word “Nazi” to describe axis and specifically German forces in some current media, I think...

I noticed this - but took it to mean they were trying to highlight a fight against an ideology rather than the nation of Germany. So the necessary fight was against fascism and the Nazis.

The victims in it all were the soldiers on both sides.

I do see the worth of keeping the vehicles and planes in working order,

Which is (genuinely)?

I get why my Gran (for instance) chose to remember cake and Glen Miller over the doodlebug that went off at the end of her street

Your Gran, absolutely. People who were born after the war, indeed, possibly, who's parents and, increasingly, grandparents were born after the war, not so much.

Fighting at Normandy wasn’t fighting “Nazi’s”-

Well, yes and no. The Germans had units like 1st SS Panzer (Adolf Hitler) I SS Panzer, II SS Panzer, 2nd SS Panzer - Das Reich, 9th SS Panzer- Hohenstaffen, and 10th SS Panzer and so on and so on, that were separate from the regular Wehrmacht, so yes; they were fighting literal Nazis...Plus some of those units were responsible for some pretty awful war crimes 

So yes, remember all those who fell, but also remember why some of those men were there, and what they wanted.

at what point do we have to move on?

The world has moved on and is generally a much better place than it was in the 1940s, but we should remember that our comfortable lives are only possible because of the sacrifices of those people in the 1940s. They deserve to be remembered.

Which is (genuinely)?

Preserving history I think. While they can be kept in museums, and more and more of them will be eventually, to see them doing what they're supposed to do brings it more to reality, even more so for things like tanks and so on. Feeling and seeing one of those Tigers in action is a much more viseral experience, and I think hammers the point about what these things are for home a bit more than seeing them gathering dust in a room.

But I understand the point you're making, there's a bit of a industry around this stuff now, and it can be a bit "Hoorah for our side" that can leave a bad taste I agree.

I took ages to post the above and missed following posts... The whole war fetishism argument is valid in a broad sense, but I think it's also possible to respect and understand warfare, whilst also choosing to wear costumes of the era in a friendly tea-and-cake atmosphere. The two things can exist simultaneously, despite the confusing/oppositional optics. It's not something i'd choose to do, but I don't see them as the objects of misunderstanding the lessons of war. Those will be the people seeking and sowing division and pursuing political aims that lead to war. Also, it's pretty poor timing to complain about war fetishism on the very day and on the very discussion of when the opposite is happening,

WW2 isn't a founding myth, it was a historical reality. Remembrance of key WW2 events shouldn't be conflated with the process of mythologising that no doubt does occur, but that isn't pertinent to the topic of D-day or its commemoration. EDIT - I get what you mean though, there's too many cross-posts for me to keep up...

WW2 isn’t a founding myth, it was a historical reality.

Of course, I meant in the sense of how post war, countries saw themselves and how it shaped their understanding, and the things they told themselves about what they did (or didn't do) in war  not that it was in of itself a mythical thing.

Of course, I meant in the sense of how post war, countries saw themselves and how it shaped their understanding, and the things they told themselves about what they did (or didn’t do) in war  not that it was in of itself a mythical thing.

It's definitely one of the fundamental reasons why the UK (and probably England more specifically) has overly-high opinion of itself.

I think it’s also possible to respect and understand warfare, whilst also choosing to wear costumes of the era in a friendly tea-and-cake atmosphere.

We'll have to disagree there.

it’s pretty poor timing to complain about war fetishism on the very day and on the very discussion of when the opposite is happening,

I get that, and I totally get that today's ceremonies are about remembering the very brutal realities and those that took part in them, and I have no wish to belittle any of that. But, it is also days like today that are bound to trigger the wider discussion, and if that discussion is a healthy one (which this one is, so far), then that is no bad thing.

I had the very large privilege of escorting veterans over to Arnhem and Pegasus Bridge in 94 and 99, something i will always remember and some of my best days in uniform. What struck me most about them, was how quiet and unassuming most where, they almost to a man stated that they had a job to do, and they got on and did it. Like most soldiers and forces guys, they didn't really often think of the bigger picture, it was about looking after their mates and trying to come home safely.

I come from Portsmouth originally, and my own Grandad was with the RAOC and landed on Gold beach. He never said anything about the war until they opened the D-Day in Portsmouth, I took him not long after it opened and he came out with a few stories and talked about just how loud and confusing it was as they approached the beach in their landing craft, mostly from the bombardment from our own ships.

He donated a pair of Carl Zeiss binoculars that a german officer had given him, and it came out that he has played in a game of football against a german POW team in Munich after the surrender (he'd played for Brighton and Hove Albion before the war), and pulled out a photo.

I went over to Gold beach last year to scatter some of his ashes and will be back down in Portsmouth this weekend to see some of the celebrations.

Whatever you think, whatever your politics are, so much is owed to these men (and woman) that were our parents and grandparents.

Something else isn't it, imagining all those young guys as part of this massive operation.

Films and whatever always show these soldiers as older-looking, like some of the BoB, Dunkirk or Saving Private Ryan who seem like they could be late 30s. But in reality a huge amount were barely out of their teens and had never travelled before. I can't imagine being tasked with invading a continent when I was a snotty 18 year old. Barely know much about life now, let alone then.

My Grandad was not directly involved in the first landings, but he was a pilot flew supplies over in the following weeks. I still have his dogtags kicking around somewhere. I wish he was still around now so that I could talk about it - unlike some of the combat troops he was very happy to talk about it but I can barely remember it.

I am not particularly old but I do remember well being a young kid and thinking WW2 was "only" 50 years ago...now the end of it is almost 80 years ago. Be a century since D-Day before we all know it, and I wonder when this will start to become a similar type of history to say the Napoleonic Wars. World War I is starting to feel very old now.

Also, it’s pretty poor timing to complain about war fetishism on the very day and on the very discussion of when the opposite is happening,

Looking at how other countries commemorate wars always looks very different to how the UK does it.

In the UK there always seems to be an undercurrent of glorification and triumphalism.   The focus always seems to be on the individuals who fought (and won), on the equipment that was used, and not enough emphasis on the war as a whole and the events prior to the war itself.

It's a bit difficult to properly explain, but I always feel like the UK puts emphasis on different parts of the war.  It's understandable, I guess.

The UK never 'lost' in the way all other European countries did.  With Germany and France commemoration always seems to be tinged with shame although for very different reasons.  In the UK commemoration always seems to be tinged with pride.

https://enrs.eu/article/not-a-laughing-matter-different-cultures-of-the-second-world-war-remembrance-across-europe

Context is key and I feel many in the UK lose sight of the context far too easily.  And I don't think pointing this out in is in any way disrespectful to veterans and those who died on D-day.

It’s definitely one of the fundamental reasons why the UK (and probably England more specifically) has overly-high opinion of itself.

how can a country have an opinion

Are you doing it on purpose now?

I think it should be remembered forever, but will scale back once the last of the veterans have gone.

Not sure about the 50 year old tubby looking cosplay Paras having a jolly old time trundling about Pegasus Bridge in their replica Jeeps.

"our comfortable lives are only possible because of the sacrifices of those people in the 1940s."

Curious as to whether (and how!) a hypothetical German victory 80 years ago would really have prevented the invention of the iPhone and widespread adoption of central heating and double glazing.

(etc etc)

Moving the discussion slightly, I’m disturbed by the frequent use of the word “Nazi” to describe axis and specifically German forces in some current media, I think it’s dangerous to promote to modern society .  Although we all know there was a strong national socialist ideology at the core of the German political and military leadership, most of the fallen opposing forces were young German soldiers plucked from daily life just like our own not aligned with those politics.

100% – I was saying just the same to my wife last night when we were watching the news report. By 1944, the Western Front was mainly manned by kids and old blokes in the Wehrmacht and just doing as they were told by their leaders (who were the Nazis). Yes, there were some Nazi divisions there, but the majority were just Wehrmacht fodder.

Looking at how other countries commemorate wars always looks very different to how the UK does it.

In the UK there always seems to be an undercurrent of glorification and triumphalism.

Obviously.

Most of Europe was overrun pretty quickly and lived under occupation for a long time - the UK was bombed heavily and potentially was going to be invaded [probably stopped by the Battle of Britain].

The British population as a whole held out and fought back.

Every countries experience of WW2 is different and the commemorate it accordingly.

D-Day was an incredible achievement.

Possibly the most important event in our history?

If it had failed in June 1944, then it would of been incredibly difficult to try again and be successful.

It would of been very possible for the USSR to seize control of all of Europe.

What then? Nuke France in order to successfully invade? You wouldn't be fighting an army in decline like the Germans were in 1944.

It doesn't bear thinking about.

Curious as to whether (and how!) a hypothetical German victory 80 years ago would really have prevented the invention of the iPhone and widespread adoption of central heating and double glazing.

I take it you are an Aryan then?

Remembering is good.  Fetishising is not.  There is far far to much fetishising.

Largely by nationalists, xenophobes, racists. Like that **** Farage turning up.

Yes very grateful to all who stood up and defended our country in a very difficult time.

... the UK was bombed heavily and potentially was going to be invaded [probably stopped by the Battle of Britain].

The British population as a whole held out and fought back.

Germany could not have invaded for as long as we had naval supremacy.

It's this sort of "we held out and fought back" narrative that makes me uneasy.

I take it you are an Aryan then?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I'm pretty sure it's not helpful.

It’s this sort of “we held out and fought back” narrative that makes me uneasy.

Ditto.

I’m getting that he seems to think the only consequences of a German victory in WW2 would be the potential development of consumer electronics. I think that’s disrespectful to those who died in the war or were a victim of genocide.

Looking at how other countries commemorate wars always looks very different to how the UK does it.

Never travel to the US.....

The UK never ‘lost’ in the way all other European countries did.

Whilst i don't agree with how we gained it, we lost an empire following the war. We lost of hundreds of thousands of young men from a single generation and many more people at home in the Blitz. But we were lucky in that we as an island were far more difficult to invade, and that due to the Battle of Britain, the axis powers never gained the control of the skies that would of then led to that invasion, they had barges lining up ready to ferry troops across at a time when our army was still understrength.

FInancially we did not win either, we were still paying back the US for "land lease" payments until 2006.....

Curious as to whether (and how!) a hypothetical German victory 80 years ago would really have prevented the invention of the iPhone and widespread adoption of central heating and double glazing.

(etc etc)

It might not have done, but the demographics of those allowed to enjoy them might have been a bit different. If you think that matters.

Germany could not have invaded for as long as we had naval supremacy.

It’s this sort of “we held out and fought back” narrative that makes me uneasy.

I totally agree that they could not of successfully invaded and the Royal Navy would of destroyed their fleet of Rhine river barges and passenger ferries.

However, I'm not sure why that narrative would make you uneasy?

We did hold out but we did it with the help of the British Empire.

Financially we did not win either,

Let's not forget that two of the greatest economic success stories of the late 20th century were Germany and Japan. Maybe there's something in being pretty much destroyed as a nation that builds a mindset of "that was awful, let's work hard to build it back better" against ours of "ooh, aren't we brilliant, let's carry on as before and assume we'll always be brilliant".

I totally agree that they could not of successfully invaded and the Royal Navy would of destroyed their fleet of Rhine river barges and passenger ferries.

However, I’m not sure why that narrative would make you uneasy?

We did hold out but we did it with the help of the British Empire.

Apologies, I think I should have more clearly delineated them as two seperate points. The BoB being what prevented an invasion is just inaccurate but that's ok, it  doesn't make me uneasy - it's the jingoistic "we held out and fought back" meme I dislike.

Are you doing it on purpose now?

It’s this sort of “we held out and fought back” narrative that makes me uneasy.

Are you saying that we should have rolled over or that you're uneasy with a statement of fact?

The BoB being what prevented an invasion is just inaccurate but that’s ok

1) I did say "probably"

2) Britannica

My father was a schoolboy in England and on D-Day cycled out to the local airfield to look at the gliders, only to find that they'd all gone. Meanwhile my father in law was a schoolboy in Caen, France. He'd watched the fireworks in the early morning and then got on his bicycle and headed to the beaches to  see what was going on!!!  He made it back safely, but then was bombed out and spent months camping out in local woods with his mother.......

That it is wrong for English people to be proud of what previous generations accomplished?

I find it odd that people are proud of things that they themselves did not do, and the only link they have to the people that did do it is the island they were born on. I guess it's my general lack of understanding of patriotism, I struggle with it as a concept.

And why have you singled out England?

Because, and I'm happy to be told differently, it's a more prominent trope in England than in Scotland/Wales/NI. I don't see fans from those nations singing "two world wars and one world cup", for instance.

I find it odd that people are proud of things that they themselves did not do

I find that strange!  Are you not proud of, for example, athletes from GB who do well?
(I'm proud of my childrens' accomplishments.... is that odd?)

I don’t see fans from those nations singing “two world wars and one world cup”, for instance

Have you never met a Welsh or Scottish rugby fan? 😉

I see Charles decided to go dressed up as a despot dictator from a banana republic complete with fake medals from mummy. Does he do it to deliberately offend all those who faught and earnt their rank and medals or does he not think that way. A suit would have been far more appropriate. It’s not as if Biden or macron wear military uniform even tthough they are actually commander in chief of their forces who can give orders

I don’t see fans from those nations singing “two world wars and one world cup”, for instance.

Because they haven't won a (football) World Cup which that chant relates to.

Think the link they have is also to the people in their families that took part and lived through those times. Also, pride in a single, yet critical, historical achievement doesn't have to be conflated with patriotism. You can identify with suffering and hardship carried out on your behalf (however distant in the past, which D-Day isn't), and at the same time not be patriotic as a whole. One thing doesn't automatically lead to the other even though the achievements of WW2 have been used like that...

I think there is a clear difference between well placed patriotism (on a day like today)and nationalism.

Never travel to the US…..

The Pearl Harbor Memorial is a model of how we can remember and contemplate what has gone before.

My old neighbour Steve who died right at the end of 2019 and landed in Normandy with 46 Royal Marine Commando. If you live between Brighton and Eastbourne you may notice a number 12 bus named after him. Stephen Barnwell. He was a great character and much missed. I did my sdw in a day on what would have been his 100th birthday as I knew there was no way I'd quit if things got tough if I was doing it to commemorate that

Really?  Are you not proud of, for example, athletes from GB who do well?

(I’m proud of my childrens’ accomplishments…. is that odd?)

For the athletes, am I pleased for them? Absolutely. Am I impressed by their dedication, skill, perseverance, ability etc? Absolutely. Am I moved by their joy? Absolutely (I cry like a baby at that stuff). Am I proud? Well, no, because I had nothing to do with what they did.

To be fair though, I get that when there's a personal element or connection then I get it. Like you with your children, say, or I'll admit that I feel proud when MrsIHN finishes some mental ultramarathon. It's when people feel proud about the accomplishments of complete strangers that I don't understand.

And the real problem comes when that pride is used to bolster a narrative of national glory, which is all too easy.

The Pearl Harbor Memorial is model of how we can remember and contemplate what has gone before.

Exactly.  The US Cemetery above Omaha beach is an incredibly powerful place - the nationality of those buried there has almost nothing to do with what it stands for.
I came away feeling very humbled.

And the real problem comes when that pride is used to bolster a narrative of national glory,

Yet again I think you're missing the point of today - it's not about England or the UK.

Because they haven’t won a (football) World Cup which that chant relates to.

yeah, but the English didn't win the world wars (at least, that is an incredible oversimplification of what happened, and who actually wins a war anyway), and the Germans have won many more World Cups...

Are you saying that we should have rolled over or that you’re uneasy with a statement of fact?

I'm uneasy with the tribal chest-thumping about a nation of 70 million people over something that only a tiny percentage of people alive today had any part in. "We" had no part in it in any meaningful sense - our ancestors did but, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, very few of them ever wanted to talk about what they went through. The UK "held out" because a quirk of geography makes it very hard to invade - if France or Poland or Russia were island nations 20 miles off into the Atlantic instead of having land borders with the Third Reich, they'd very likely be talking about how they "held out and fought back" too.

Edit - sorry, forgot the BoB invasion bit. All the navy would have had to do was charge destroyers up and down the channel - they wouldn't have need to waste ammunition on river barges under tow wallowing about on the Channel, the wash alone would have scuppered them.

My Grandad went ashore at Arromanches / Gold on D+6 then went through France and Germany until the end.

I've got a picture of him in his uniform and his medal collection. He looks like a little boy, because he was.

He never mentioned it until the 40th anniversary, when he went back and received an award in France for still being alive.

Today is a day for sombre reflection. They did something unimaginably brave to stop something unimaginably evil.

I'll have a think about him and his mates. It doesn't mean as much to my kids because they never met him.

and the Germans have won many more World Cups…

But they don't make up for the atrocities performed by the Nazis.

r Russia were island nations 20 miles off into the Atlantic instead of having land borders with the Third Reich, they’d very likely be talking about how they “held out and fought back” too.

The 'Germans' only ever accessed less than 10% of Russia so I don't think you can include them.

I’m uneasy with the tribal chest-thumping about a nation of 70 million people over something that only a tiny percentage of people alive today had any part in.

See previous

 All the navy would have had to do was charge destroyers up and down the channel

While being sunk by the air superiority that German would have had if it had not been for the BoB.  Ships are great until they're sunk.
(The RN wouldn't have stood a chance if they tried to defend the S coast with no air cover)

That it is wrong for English people to be proud of what previous generations accomplished?

If they are led to believe it was just the "English" that fought and pushed back the forces of Nazism, then yes. We can be proud of what was accomplished. We should not pretend that it was English people standing alone, or that it was because of some unique trait that the people here had that was missing elsewhere. Also, we, along with many other nations, should also be ashamed that we ever let things get to that point, and learn from that. There is lots to remember. Today the focus should absolutely be on the lives lost and ruined by brave people doing what they had to do... but that should not form the basis of English exceptionalism.

But they don’t make up for the atrocities performed by the Nazis.

You've lost me now.

I’m uneasy with the tribal chest-thumping about a nation of 70 million people over something that only a tiny percentage of people alive today had any part in

I think there is a gulf of a difference between those who are reflecting on the great sacrifices made by many, just a few generations ago, where no family in the UK was left untouched, and for which i am immensely proud of my grandad, my gran (who lost her first husband, a Lancaster rear gunner weeks after they were married, and who refused to marry my grandad until the war was over as she did not want to lose a second) and her actions as a nurse, and the actions of the misplaced jingo-ism, flag pole raising, "2 world wars and 1 world cup" mob. You can be one without being the other.

And the countries of France, Poland and Russia, all hold days and times of remembrance for their war dead?

What the polish achieved was remarkable against the odds.

The ‘Germans’ only ever accessed less than 10% of Russia so I don’t think you can include them.

No problem, consider them unincluded. 🙂

See previous

What you said was..

The British population as a whole held out and fought back.

While being sunk by the, then, German air superiority.  Ships are great until they’re sunk.

How do they do that, do you think? Bombs? Torpedos? Mines?

I think there is a gulf of a difference between those who are reflecting on the great sacrifices made by many, just a few generations ago, where no family in the UK was left untouched, and for which i am immensely proud of my grandad, my gran (who lost her first husband, a Lancaster rear gunner weeks after they were married, and who refused to marry my grandad until the war was over as she did not want to lose a second) and her actions as a nurse, and the actions of the misplaced jingo-ism, flag pole raising, “2 world wars and 1 world cup” mob. You can be one without being the other.

100% agree.

I was riding back to the ferry at Caen last summer and had some spare time so I rode along to Juno beach and then rode east along the coast. My grandfather was in the medical corps and landed there a few days after D-Day before moving through France and Belgium. I didn't realise it was that particular beach until I called home to say where I was and asked about his time there. Seems common that his generation didn't talk much about it all. Tbh it floors me coming across reminders of WW1 and 2 in N France or the Vercors, you're cycle touring w/o a care in the world then you see an area with 100s or 1000s of white crosses and read the ages of many of them. Puts your place in the world in perspective.

When we are not governed by dangerous men who might take us down that path again?

A very good answer.

And the countries of France, Poland and Russia, all hold days and times of remembrance for their war dead?

Like I said earlier, the emphasis in most countries is different to the UK's.

With the possible exception of Russia, particularly in recent years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesrodgerseurope/2020/03/07/how-russias-invitation-to-world-war-ii-commemoration-challenges-the-west/