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None own a car and one refuses to even travel in them.
They refuse to travel by car? Oh god... I bet they love telling everyone that within 30 seconds of meeting them too, don't they? Just after the bit about being vegan?
Thats not actually an even remotely plausible approach for 99% of the population, ie: all those who don't live off-grid in carbon-neutral eco-houses, is it?
We need practical, workable solutions, not silly performative, 'look at me, polishing my eco-halo' self-indulgent posturing, and that isn't going to be achieved by shouting at people and glueing yourself to a motorway bridge.
Protests can and do work.
They can when the numbers involved become so large that they can no longer be ignored as pointed out by someone above.
The group aren't that and will never be. I saw them as I live here. There were about 15 cyclists deliberately riding at a walking pace blocking the whole carriageway. This wasn't 100,000 people making a valued point.
The general consensus here is "****ing **** cyclists being ****s as usual!" That is the attitude they are fueling withe their 'mass' cycling protest.
I was cycling the opposite way and had someone shout '****ing ****er' at me just after passing them even though I had nothing to do with them.
It has just reinforced the attitudes that cyclists are a minority and a nuisance on the roads.
The group aren’t that and will never be
Not YET!
I think we have to accept that there is no way to do this without annoying people.
These groups of activists polarise the discussion - so some will hate them and some will love them.
Polarising the discussion is good and necessary as it enables the two groups to see who they are dealing with.
Most of the time 'pro' and 'con' teams are very difficult to tell apart. All the "oh well maybe" kind of remarks muddy the waters so well that no one can tell who they need to influence to achieve the change.
So love 'em or hate 'em they are a necessary part of the process.
self-indulgent, clueless, sanctimonious, joyless, self-righteous middle class arseholes who’s activities are totally counterproductive
The sounds like they would fit right in here then.
I think we have to accept that there is no way to do this without annoying people.
Yes there is. There are many ways to do this without annoying people, as a number of posters have described in detail
Some people just seem to actively enjoy annoying people, despite it being, at best, useless and at worst (as seems to be the case) totally counterproductive.
Dragging this back on topic, it's hard to see how an XR-style group is going to change the typical local councillor viewpoint, ie:
- Cars are how 'normal' people get around (despite the fact that 1:4 UK households don't have access to a car)
- Traffic mitigation measures are unpopular (as the 2/3 of people who are largely supportive are drowned out by a small, shouty and occasionally antisocial minority)
- Infra is 'for cyclists' (when it's for people who don't already cycle, and enables transport choice)
Unless this is going to address that, and it's hard to see how it's going to be more effective than e.g. Walk Ride groups which already exist, then is it going to achieve anything?
Engaging in local democracy etc
Jesus, and you criticise others with that sad 6th form trope 😀😀😀
as a number of posters have described in detail
Could you point out this detail? I must have missed it!!
Engage in local politics and work in the energy industry seemed to be the sum total of it. Not really great options are they. The Green party has been doing one of those for decades and hasn't made a huge amount of progress due to our voting system
Sad 6th form trope?
Can you tell my what's '6th form' about getting involved in local politics - which is absolutely nothing like national politics - and trying to actually quietly get some stuff done that might actually benefit local people?
I can guarantee you that my local councillor has achieved more in the last 6 months than Tarquin and Tabatha will manage in a lifetime of walking slowly down roads in Islington in an orange hi-viz vest
But then he's more about actually getting stuff done rather than pointless, self-indulgent posturing
We, cyclists, need motorists on our side to make change
People who drive can also be people who support change in how cars are used, but I don't think the 'motoring group' and those with interests in car use will ever be on our side. We need reasonable thinking and policy change. 'Motorists' won't like what has to happen for public transport and alternative travel options to happen. They've had their time and though yes we need private car transport to some extent for normal life as we have it to function, I don't believe we don't need it in the form we have now. So I'd be plonked in the 'war on motorists' group then.
I can guarantee you that my local councillor has achieved more in the last 6 months than Tarquin and Tabatha will manage in a lifetime of walking slowly down roads in Islington
No doubt. There's a lot of angry young people out there who don't feel listened to though. I'm not getting into commenting on the methods some of them use beyond, yes, some of it is daft, I wasn't the most rational-acting teenager either like many aren't.
But above that - we become irrelevant when we stop listening to young people and just start telling them how to behave. They do things to be heard. Maybe local councillors are the people who have work to do to listen to them and maybe the young people need to listen too. Maybe the good work that is happening is little and late, needs promoting more and the process needs to be more open. I don't have answers. But let's not shut people down with the class and hair colour stereotypes, that's exactly what the people who'd not give cycling and alternative transport space a look-in would like to see happening.
There’s a lot of angry young people out there who don’t feel listened to though.
I'm not disputing that.
But my local councillor, elected at the last local elections, is 25 years old and his energy and enthusiasm in getting stuff done is amazing
One of the most active people I know in local politics is 19 years old, She's massively environmentally aware and quite high-profile and is regularly interviewed by the BBC for comment specifically on environmental issues
So my point is that this idea of protest which inconveniences other people as the only way of getting anything done just doesn't stack up. I look at the people doing it and its obvious that a lot of it is just self-indulgent posturing for consumption by the same sorts of people, without any thought to whether it achieves anything or not
anagallis_arvensis - There are plenty of things that Mr Osman could get involved in. Here in Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch the sustainable travel planning is managed by BH Active Travel. He could easily get involved in his spare time.
They campaign and bid for the funding for central government funds that have paid for all the cycling, walking and public transport improvement here. They work with the council and contractor in the planning and implementation of the improvements. They work with local charities businesses to provide cycling instruction and education to children and adults. They work with the motoring groups to limit the perceived disruption and attitudes towards money being spent on sustainable cycling infrastructure rather than potholes.
Notice all these things start with 'work with' rather than 'rail against'. They are very effective down here in actually getting things improved.
Pretty much every city has an organisation like this that can actually make improvement rather that just shouting about needing them.
WCA of this forum didn't get Southampton Bike Park built by pissing off everyone. He worked hard with the authorities and organisations to achieve a very worthwhile goal. He is a great example of how to make real progress.
There are many ways to do this without annoying people
I agree that for change to be sustained it has to be incorporated into policy whether local or national. Politicians need to be on board.
But to think that the type of change we need to survive as humans won't mean massive lifestyle changes for all is naive. There is simply no mitigation that will allow consumption to continue at cureent levels.
Those people who can't fly/drive/heat patios/upgrade like they did will be annoyed.
But my local councillor, elected at the last local elections, is 25 years old and his energy and enthusiasm in getting stuff done is amazing
You're lucky - all power to him. There are some good people out there and they need supporting to keep that energy.
So my point is that this idea of protest which inconveniences other people as the only way of getting anything done just doesn’t stack up. I look at the people doing it and its obvious that a lot of it is just self-indulgent posturing for consumption by the same sorts of people, without any thought to whether it achieves anything or not
If there are folk who think it's the only way then yes that needs working out and I can't imagine the more influential people in ER or CR etc wouldn't be taking that on. Every movement has it's lunatic fringe and ER isn't a regimented organisation, it has idiots acting in it's name and I know there's some smart, well-reasoned people in my area who are involved with it, I'm sure PR management and how/why they do things is on agendas. The public kicking back against the more controversial protest methods plays into the hands of the right wing media, car lobby groups, energy firms etc and they know that.
Some of the protests don't seem too clever and some of it will be attention seeking, I reckon there's a range like there's a range of people involved. I suppose I just CBA getting into the validity of individual protests or protestors because I generally agree with the point the protests as a whole are making. I can't imagine a positive society having an agreed way to protest - all a bit Tory / CCP for me. The reason there are protests is the topic, not what the protest method is? Edit to add, but I recognise that public perception as a whole is knee-jerk and the media manipulation of all this means there's negative effects from some of the protests.
These groups of activists polarise the discussion – so some will hate them and some will love them.
Polarising the discussion is good and necessary as it enables the two groups to see who they are dealing with.
Not really. As this thread proves, you can totally agree with the goals of protesters but disagree with their methods. I hate the idea of a Cycling Rebellion movement. It's the sort of thing I'll stew about while I'm riding my 10,000 miles a year
this really does amuse me - the concept that any protest that inconveniences anyone is counter productive. read some history. Its full of examples of successful protest movements. Labour started as a protest movement ( or at least one of its roots was) Huge amounts of other examples all over the world
^ I fundamentally agree with you TJ, though I wonder if social media and the instant, quite polarised media we have now has changed things.
"Cycling Rebellion will be one of XR's affinity groups. There's Money Rebellion, Plastic Rebellion, there was Animal Rebellion. There are groups targeting important issues, but no one was broaching the fact that our cities are designed for cars and not for cyclists and pedestrians.
"We're starting here, but we will be trying to engage with people across the country. Anyone who wants to start a CR group can do it pretty much instantly. We will provide the flyers, the event ideas, help people communicate with the council. Research you can use. Hopefully this can really quickly bring attention to the need for better infrastructure."
Sounds reasonable enough? Doesn't sound much different to a mass (2-3 dozen riders?) 'cargo bikes plus others' ride that happens locally, it slows down traffic on a 30 / 40 zone local road that isn't very safe for cycling, and it does it in a way some drivers see as disruptive. They'd call it safety in numbers, highlighting transport issues families have and it's got the topic on local agendas to some extent.
the concept that any protest that inconveniences anyone is counter productive.
Nobody is saying that.
What we're saying is that this specific way of protesting is counter-productive. Particularly having had it repeatedly pointed out; there are far more effective, proven ways of making progress in this area, without being a dick
What Cycling Rebellion are proposing doing is no different from what Critical Mass has been doing for years and pretty much everyone agrees that they're just a bunch of ****s
You seem to have a ludicrously over-romanticised view of the idea of protesting...
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Guess how the dutch got their cycle provision - a large part of it was mass protest
Good for them.
Thats not how we do things here though, is it? You can tut and roll your eyes like everybody else
🙂
Yeh,we should wait for a great labour government like the last one.Student fees,murderous wars, PFI disaster,single parent cuts,no council housing,No repeal of trade union laws and giving are gold away.At least you ended boom and bust though binners!
Callaghans labourists and the the rotten boroughs all round the country not much better.
THe suffragette movement was "suspended" in 1914 for the duration of the war and an amnestry granted to suffragettes - my great aunt was editor of the WFL magazine BTW. The focus of activity changed to voluntary work contributing to the war effort.
The suffragette movement was still present in various guises, continued to apply political pressure through the war and clearly had a lot to do with the 1918 granting of the right to vote to millions of women.
I find it a little odd that the very same people above who contratulate protesters on this side of the channel taking a stand on various issues fail to find similar enthusiasm for UK protestors.
UKcycling are even more toothless than the CTC of yore. It even sounds like a government department FFS. Dumb name for what should be a lobby and protest group.
My great aunt didn't place any bombs AFAIK but got caught painting a slogan on an MP's wall. Happily the bobby shared our family name and told her to "bugger off".
So good luck to Cycling Rebellion.
This Thread is a fascinating insight into people's mindsets around these sort of topics.
Politicians know the wider public are just fine with their intransigence on Environmental and Active travel issues, I'd say a good chunk of STW clearly are too.
I guess there's a difference between taking an MTB off a roof rack/out of a lifestyle bus to pedal round a trailcentre for a couple of hours and riding a bicycle around towns and cities whether for transport or leisure. Both are Riding bicycles but the context makes a difference.
That many on here are trying to pivot the issues of protesting into some sort of proxy class war is quite telling. That little bit of Culture war propaganda planted (by Farage or whoever else) has obviously incepted the idea that "Woke Liberal Elite types" (or their offspring) are the problem, not the total roasters in cars mowing you and your kids down...
It does feel like the public have forgotten that protest is a valid form of expression and that it has been a right we all had, until our current government started to erode it...
The real question to ask is, if there are more groups active, protesting, and thus causing inconvenience to regular folks, does that mean maybe things are getting worse? Is the tireless march of British progress faltering a bit? It's really hard to organise a group to participate in a protest if everyone is utterly content with things, so clearly some people are discontent and don't feel they have an MP or a think tank on their side to work within the current structures of power and influence to adjust the world appropriately...
Do I support 'Cycling rebellion'?
I don't know yet, it would appear I share some of their goals:
...attempting to pressure national and local government into building new and better infrastructure for active travel.
I'm never keen to identify myself as a "Cyclist" I prefer "person who uses a bicycle" because I don't really believe there's some all encompassing group called "cyclists" in much the same way that "drivers" aren't an organised, universally aligned group with identical priorities and values, they're just people who happen to use cars.
The idea that protests will worsen things for bicycle users is an interesting notion, people already treat bicycle riders like shit on UK roads, the idea that someone could internally justify running you down because someone else on a bike held them up on the way to work earlier is quite concerning, essentially it's accepting that Drivers can't process their anger properly, so we should collectively just accommodate their fragile little egos...
my point is that this idea of protest which inconveniences other people as the only way of getting anything done just doesn’t stack up
No one has suggested that it is or should be the only way. The facts are that many people in society have views not represented by any mainstream political group and that leads to frustration and protest. You may not like it or them, I may not like it or them but gluing yourself to a road is better than some of the other options.
My local extinction rebellion and JSO branch are continously writing to MP's, responding to local and national consultations, attended by local councillors and involved in community projects and every few months they hire a coach to attend national demonstrations. It's almost like you can do both and they aren't mutually exclusive.
Guess how the dutch got their cycle provision – a large part of it was mass protest
If it was mass protest then it may be effective but this was 13-14 people riding slowly in the middle of the road.
I get that things start small but they aren't going to get 1000s people turn up and the general consensus around here is 'FFS, it's that dozen ****s blocking the road by riding like ****s again'. It does however reinforce the incorrect, deep seated perception of cyclists on the road making it worse for everyone else.
The general attitude to people riding bikes is appalling and if they were protesting outside the county police headquarters for proper enforcement of the existing laws then I would fully support them but when they are doing things that make my life commuting on a bike worse by enraging some drivers then I can't help but think they are muppets.
when they are doing things that make my life commuting on a bike worse by enraging some drivers then I can’t help but think they are muppets.
(aside from there not being a direct link there, only a perception that it may happen) So we should tell those protesting -in a legal way that isn't more than a mild inconvenience to some drivers, no more than the average tractor does- to do something else, out of fear of those drivers who're already threatening or driving badly around us?
That doesn't work for me. That's cowering away as a group, failing to support those who are trying to do something -in a legal way that isn't more than a mild inconvenience- while just carrying on and accepting the status quo.
It's also that point about acceptable forms of protest and how that works out for all of us when we have a populist right-leaning govt. If we think one form is ok and another isn't we'll get played, we already are. If we believe we all have a right to protest any way that we feel is right and if a protest verges into assault or criminal damage etc we already have laws for that, we're a better society imo. It's like fighting for your right for free speech even if I don't like what you say.
As cookeaa says above, the fact that so many feel the need to protest is a sign that things aren't right. Social media probably playing a part in the perception of how much is happening also.
This Thread is a fascinating insight into people’s mindsets around these sort of topics.
Yep
When environmentalists argue we need to massively change our lifestyles, half the population call them hypocrites because they still use phones and computors, eat vegatables the production of which involved some sort of insect death, occasionally travel by car or god forbid take a flight every few years
Then when they find out that some of them live off grid, grow all their own food, and don't use motorised transport, the same half of the population call them smug out-of-touch virtue signallers
It reminds me of a brilliant Russell Brand quote from before he went mad:
“When I was poor and complained about inequality they said I was bitter; now that I'm rich and I complain about inequality they say I'm a hypocrite. I'm beginning to think they just don't want to talk about inequality.”
Again, I repeat, I am massively skeptical of Critical Mass protest tactics, but I think these character attacks are unneccessary
Edit: I just reread your post @cookeaa and that really is a good read and interesting analysis
Guess how the dutch got their cycle provision – a large part of it was mass protest
Good for them.
Thats not how we do things here though, is it? You can tut and roll your eyes like everybody else
We don't do things here, that's the problem
Excellent post cookeea
The real question to ask is, if there are more groups active, protesting, and thus causing inconvenience to regular folks, does that mean maybe things are getting worse?
I'm not so sure. There maybe more groups*, but are there more people? One does not conflate automatically to the other. I'd have thought the number of people involved in active protest was a marker for the state of the nation, not the number of groups they are fractured into.
*I'm also not actually sure this is true either. In an soundbite superficial media, social media driven world full of echo chamber bedevilment it might just be the ease of visibility that makes that perception feel true. 6 similarly minded people can find each of much more easily and call themselves a group, 'do a protest' and distort it's significance using social media beyond reality so easily now in comparison to previous eras. Add some algorithmic influence to what you see in your social media feed and if you were so inclined you would think the world was shot to shit and protesters we on every corner. Look at some of these Quran burnings in Sweden this year - it became global news - you'd think it was a 'group' but the reality was often a super insignificant happening in a small village attended by a handful of protesters that was barely perceptible as a thing to local residents. I'm not sure there is a threshold for what constitutes a 'group', but in many cases I'd argue they wouldn't make it.
aside from there not being a direct link there, only a perception that it may happen
Apart from being called a ****ing ****er by a car driver immediately after passing them the other week? That's a pretty direct link I'd say.
They have the right to protest in that way, equally I have the right to think they are muppets for doing it in a deliberately antagonistic way which has a direct impact on others behaviours towards me.
this really does amuse me – the concept that any protest that inconveniences anyone is counter productive.
It amuses me that this amuses you! 🙂
I don't know how long the two of us have occupied this forum together but I'd make the observation that over that time I'm not sure I know of another user so keen to make their point but so inept at finding a way of making it that had any chance of persuading someone to change their views to align with yours. Your skills in persuasion are legendarily bad! If there was anyone who might not appreciate the nuance needed for effective mind changing I'd be nominating you 🙂
@cookeaa great post, I'm glad there's a few voices here that aren't scared by being inconvenienced for a point to be raised. I always thought this was quite a liberal place but some of the responses here would make Clarkson blush.
I've been mulling over taking part in some sort of action these last couple of years, even though it might harm my career significantly. The talk of making a point via local politics is a joke, we need eyes opening now, not for something to slowly make its way through a bureaucratic system that constantly gets watered down by those with vested interests.
The scientific community keep telling us we're ****ed if we don't act now, are none of you listening?
The scientific community keep telling us we’re **** if we don’t act now, are none of you listening?
You mean do ‘something’ even if you think it will be counterproductive?
Excellent post cookeea
Kind of sums up my thoughts as well
You mean do ‘something’ even if you think it will be counterproductive?
No, the scientific community are urging governments to act. They are not.
Its down to us as individuals to pressure governments to act. How that's done is up for debate. The protests that make the news are making the news, that's important.
No one would have talked about Just Stop Oil and their aims of they'd just lobbied their local MP.
I'm.not sure I'm that bothered by Cycle Rebellion, their focus appears to be too narrow, but I get where they are coming from. The are days on my commute into work that I think I may end up going full on Falling Down against some motorists.
I'm not sure where, if anywhere, I may end up with my thoughts on activism, but I hope it won't end with an eye roll and a protest vote.
This whole argument of getting a job "doing the good stuff" falls down entirely without the funding or political will to drive that work in the first place. Without the gov deciding to go carbon neutral, scruff would still be working on a grid powered by coal. The only way to change the funding and political will is to show those at the top that there is mass support for that change. Protest is a component of that in a way that I can't personally see individuals on the ground being able to achieve.
I also can't believe that the obvious example of the Dutch cycle lanes hasn't been brought up yet. Didn't they stem largely from mass protest against poor road safety?
I also can’t believe that the obvious example of the Dutch cycle lanes hasn’t been brought up yet.
The poll tax riots too.
Counterintuitively, the original fuel protest worked... helped **** the planet a little more but, yep they got a freeze on fuel duty.
They have the right to protest in that way, equally I have the right to think they are muppets for doing it in a deliberately antagonistic way which has a direct impact on others behaviours towards me.
You do realise it's not the protestors at fault in that scenario, right?
Cause and effect.
The driver was a monumental c***. The people who deliberately wound her up to the point she verbally abused someone unrelated to their protest are muppets.
No one would have talked about Just Stop Oil and their aims of they’d just lobbied their local MP.
You can still protest but protest effectively. The alternative to just stop oil and extinction rebellion is not just lobby your MP.
You want to make people think and become motivated. The protest needs to make people think about the problem you want solving not the problem you are creating. Focus on the people who have power.
E.g. for sewage dumping in The rivers collect sewage, go to water companies hq call the press cause a fuss about the sewage, say you are returning it. Leave it in buckets. force a interview where you don't just shout at the company. People with more imagination than me could come up with some better ideas but even that is better than standing in the middle of the road
Learn some rhetoric. Manipulate emotion to motivate people to be with you not against you. You need to make the people angry and empathise with your position not at you and what distribution you are causing
I also can’t believe that the obvious example of the Dutch cycle lanes hasn’t been brought up yet. Didn’t they stem largely from mass protest against poor road safety?
yes and I did mention it 🙂
People with more imagination than me could come up with some better ideas but even that is better than standing in the middle of the road
I'm not disagreeing with you, Mark Thomas did this a while back, and whilst effective I think it only reached those of us who already cared. I'm sure these tactics have been used time and time again, unfortunately they don't get the media coverage.
SAS get on the news occasionally, but it appears a bit of fame will get you on the news more readily, and more power to Fergal Sharkey, and we don't all have that.
FFS the BBC shoved David Attenborough onto the iPlayer for the last episode of his most recent series cos it might have been too overt in calling out the crisis unfolding. We need to be shouting, not coming up with elaborate stunts.
The driver was a monumental c***. The people who deliberately wound her up to the point she verbally abused someone unrelated to their protest are [s]muppets[/s]just whatever excuse she needed.
FTFY
Yes, they wind people up but that is absolutely not an excuse for the behaviour of other people. Last ****er that verbally abused me from a car got their back quarter panel kicked, not my proudest moment but was I **** moving to let them drive down a pavement at school time. Would it be my fault if they went on to give the lollipop lady an earful or are they just ****s full stop?
You can still protest but protest effectively. The alternative to just stop oil and extinction rebellion is not just lobby your MP.
You want to make people think and become motivated. The protest needs to make people think about the problem you want solving not the problem you are creating. Focus on the people who have power.
I agree with this logic, but look what happened when Greenpeace protested at Rishi's (empty) house? They still received an onslaught of attacks, for different reasons.
You can still protest but protest effectively. The alternative to just stop oil and extinction rebellion is not just lobby your MP.
This just popped up in my feed the organizers words at the end sum it up perfectly:
A "gentle protest" that shouldn't have to exist...
its not new, but it is disappointing that a 'majority' on here immediately feel that any form of cycling protesting, regardless of stated aims being clearly positive, will increase divisions and risk to cyclists on the roads.
to me thats exactly what the "other side" would love to spam this thread with to shut it down as quick as possible - but the first page (i couldnt bring myself to read the rest) appears populated by STW regulars
Chris Boardman's test was if you could let a 9 year old cycle on it's own.
I think we are a long way from this.
A lot of the people on here charge off too the trail centre for their biking and be quite insulated from driver behaviour.
Since lockdown we have reduced the number of days out mountain biking which require a drive and substituted some road and mixed riding. When you are regularly subjected to poor driver behaviour you start to fear for your safety.
Driver behaviour and attitudes are often bad anyway and are not going to change unless they are forced too.
The current very right wing uk government have rolled back cycle measures to favour car schemes.
We are not living in Binners cycling nirvana and any new labour govt will probably be careful not to offend car users for fear of electoral backlash.
Things need to change ideally this should be led effectively by Cycling UK and British Cycling but I see few signs of this.
Maybe it is time for more dirrect action and maybe we could just organise a lot of cyclists to go for a ride in the same area, to enjoy a nice ride somewhere scenic.
Come on you have nothing to lose but your chains, eeerr?
“I think we have to accept that there is no way to do this without annoying people.”
The most stupid thing I’ve ever read. Anyone that thinks this is part of the problem.
I agree with the person saying we need to take the boardman approach of quiet, sustained, sensible conversation in the right places with people who have authority to make decisions.
and if you have spare cash, donate it to Sustrans.
The most stupid thing I’ve ever read.
I think you'll find the most stupid was on page one....
Disruption and inconvenience are used to break down barriers and encourage the conversation
Personally I find the moment after I have deliberately inconvenienced someone (for no other reason unlike the school bike bus above where the inconvenience is the byproduct not the main objective) is the moment they are most receptive to considering my point of view. don't you?
I’m not so sure. There maybe more groups*, but are there more people? One does not conflate automatically to the other. I’d have thought the number of people involved in active protest was a marker for the state of the nation, not the number of groups they are fractured into.
A fair point. I'm not a protester or activist, I ride bicycles in and out of towns and I'm aware of both good and terrible cycling infrastructure in a few areas.
You're right all that most of us seem to be going off of is perceptions based on media coverage and extrapolating a national picture from what amounts to just a few snippets.
Take this "Cycling Rebellion" story for example the only real facts it relates are that a chap in Bournemouth is starting a cycling focussed active travel campaign group, it is/will be a branch off from XR, they would like to make their campaign national, they intend to use CM style protest tactics. What isn't started is the current number of members, how they have/intend to interact with existing campaign groups and other stakeholders (locally and nationally) and if CM rides are the extent of their campaign tactics or one of many...
It is light on details but was still enough to trigger a few people immediately. I'd reserve judgement, like I said I share their key goal, but we ain't seen them DO anything yet.
Thinking about it further the wider picture of cycling infrastructure is a patchwork, down to our mish mash of LAs, politicians and town planners. Different regions and towns are better and worse.
Motivating change ultimately needs 'carrots' and 'sticks' wielded more at a local level (IMO), CM is one option if you're looking for a stick there are others of course...
.
The most stupid thing I’ve ever read. Anyone that thinks this is part of the problem.
I agree with the person saying we need to take the boardman approach of quiet, sustained, sensible conversation in the right places with people who have authority to make decisions.
LMFAO.
You think local councillors have anyones interests but their own in mind? There are some that care but they are few and far between, you can write as many polite letters as you like but they'll likely just be filed in the memory hole.
You think local councillors have anyones interests but their own in mind?
I don't know where on earth you've got this impression about local councillor's. Have you ever met any? It certainly doesn't sound like it.
I know a few of ours around here and they're the nicest people you'll ever meet and absolutely work their arses off to try and make peoples lives better in the local community, giving up a lot of time, all of it unpaid
You're aware that national politics and the clowns in Westminster are not even remotely like what goes on at a local level? Its not really partisan and yaa-boo and involves some good people doing their very best against a backdrop of 13 years of having their budgets slashed to ribbons, seriously limiting their ability to get done what they'd like to
you can write as many polite letters as you like but they’ll likely just be filed in the memory hole.
Why not have a chat with them and see? Instead of just cynically writing them all off? If they're anything like ours, then you'll find them very receptive and willing to see what it is they can do to help.
Yes I have met a fair few local Councillors. Corruption and coverup are their main traits. Edinburgh is perhaps one of the worst mind you
Massive coverup and huge waste of money over the Statutory notice scandal. Huge coverup of at best murky goings on in the bits that look after children. Harrassment and legal action taken against whistleblowers
Thats just two where criminal activity has been covered up. Funnily enough the only party with clean hands in Edinburgh is the tories - but only because they were not in power during the scandals
Binners - councilors are paid and well paid are they not?
Edit - just looked - salaries only in Scotland and its not as good as I thought
Yes I have met a fair few local Councillors. Corruption and coverup are their main traits.
Thats the polar opposite of my experience
Binners – councilors are paid and well paid are they not?
No, they're not payed at all, never mind paid well.
It sounds like theres an awful lot of misconceptions here about the reality of being a local councillor
Perhaps getting a little off topic but the Sheffield tree scandal is another example of councillors not listening, actively covering up and in fact being overcome by the power of protest
In the dealings I have had with local labour councilors, I have found some to be hard working and commited individuals and at least one who in my opinion is a total waste of space.
The problem with the roads a lots of people are ignoring is that they are not all under the control of the local council. The roads in Cheshire have a significant number of people who drive badly and in a country lane it's unlikley anybody is going to build a bike lane.
Binners =- see my edit - they are paid fulltime employees in Scotland. I didn't realise they were not in England
As I said I have had a lot of dealings with Edinburgh council and corruption and coverup is the rule
There are certain councils that are infamous, I know. Liverpool is renowned as being about as bent as it gets. Completely corrupt. Maybe it’s a big city thing?
I still think it’s the exception rather than the rule, though. It’s just doesn’t seem to be the case at a smaller, more local level. Certainly not in my experience, where I’ve encountered honest, decent, hard-working people with the best of intentions
The point I’ve been trying to make all through this thread is that there’s more to be achieved through collaborating with local democratic organisations, as opposed to taking an aggressive, confrontational stance which just pisses people off
Or at least try the former before resorting to the latter, as you might well be pleasantly surprised with the reception you get
I don’t know where on earth you’ve got this impression about local councillor’s. Have you ever met any? It certainly doesn’t sound like it.
I know a few of ours around here and they’re the nicest people you’ll ever meet and absolutely work their arses off to try and make peoples lives better in the local community, giving up a lot of time, all of it unpaid
You’re aware that national politics and the clowns in Westminster are not even remotely like what goes on at a local level? Its not really partisan and yaa-boo and involves some good people doing their very best against a backdrop of 13 years of having their budgets slashed to ribbons, seriously limiting their ability to get done what they’d like to
I'm absolutely aware that local parties aren't necessarily the people sent to Westminster. I say not necessarily as where do you think the landslide SNP stock came from?
Anyway, in my experience it's exactly the same bickering and playground nonsense as those above, we have a Labour councillor in our ward who is a right nasty piece of work as was the Green hopeful. Our independent is alright, nice guy but still a vote chaser, God forbid you make a road behind a couple of shops with barely enough room to drive down pedestrian only, where would the shopkeepers park all day (then moan that closing to traffic would harm business)?
So yeah, bully for you, good Infrastructure and people in it for everyone else. It's almost like one size doesn't fit all eh?