Cycling Rebellion!

Nice aims of more infrastructure but following extinction rebellion is not productive.

God help us, especially if they act like the 'stop oil' lot. Screwed we are (as cyclists). Even more hatred.

Fantastic! Another bunch of trustafarian bell ends pissing everyone off and claiming to do so in the name of 'cyclists'

Just what we need 🙄

is this not exactly what critical mass do already?

Usual bunch of anti social weirdos.

Critical mass does nothing but cause aggression from motorists towards cyclists.

Yep, getting behind CyclingUK as an existing and well-regarded campaign organisation for promoting cycling would be preferable IMO...

Another bunch of trustafarian bell ends pissing everyone off and claiming to do so in the name of ‘cyclists’

I agree it could do more harm than good, but this trust fund crap is just propaganda made up by the likes of Farage

but this trust fund crap is just propaganda made up by the likes of Farage

It really isn't. I wouldn't have the faintest idea what Nigel Farage and co think about them.

They regularly have the representatives of these mind-blowingly stupid organisations on five live whenever they've pulled their latest brainless act. They are, without exception, called Lavinia Crumpton-Smythe or Sebastian Parker-Bowles and speak with the tones that only the most expensive private education can buy

Bunch of ****s!

Oh great, I've already pretty much given up road riding (on my own anyway) as I don't like being on road with the general attitude and competance of a lot of drivers these days. I really hope this short of shit doesn't make it any worse.

Sorry, I don't listen to posh people unless they're in government/media.

speak with the tones that only the most expensive private education can buy

I don’t listen to posh people

Now ya see - this ^ kind of attitude is what's going to stop it happening and part of the reason these groups exist.

Disruption and inconvenience are used to break down barriers and encourage the conversation.

There appear to be a few 'barriers' appearing even among cyclists :o)

There appear to be a few ‘barriers’ appearing even among cyclists

Probably because it's not really been an 'us v them', just different people on bikes as a mode of transport or lesiure; we don't belong to a homogeneous group.

Disruption and inconvenience are used to break down barriers and encourage the conversation really, really piss people off who are just trying to go about their daily business and have got enough problems as it is.

FTFY

There appear to be a few ‘barriers’ appearing even among cyclists :o)

😉

I'm not!

Disruption and inconvenience are used to break down barriers and encourage the conversation.

I suspect more likely to have the opposite effect: reinforce division and entrench viewpoints!  With the current government (and potentially their successor scared of the media) there's a good chance that legislative reform will be used to prevent obstruction of the highway by bicycles like gluing yourself to the road.  Don't be surprised if the actually result of this is not more cycle infrastructure, but laws requiring you not ride on the road where infrastructure is provided (even if its shit).

So out of interest if campaign groups just entrench division blah blah blah how do people who want to campaign and effect change do so without upsetting the stw, Audi driving IT consultant set?

@binners, with all due respect, I hung out in these kind of cirles for a decade and you are just going off anecdotal media appearances

All well educated and middle class? Mostly, yes

All unemployed and living off trust funds? Absolutely not -- that'll be the Tory's kids living off various forms of passive income

Here's some of the things my friends in Leeds would do aside from critical mass:

> Run the local bike repair coop
> Run a local NGO educating taxi drivers about road safety, specifically with cyclists in mind
> Do the local school run -- i.e. not for the own kids, but as the marshall guiding tens of kids home from school in high-viz
> Work for local NGOs supporting refugees
> Or work in what is to my mind very difficult youth work

All of which is work with pitiful wages

I went on a critical mass once -- I thought it was a terrible idea and I never did it again

But the idea that all these protestors are unemployed upper class elites is a myth that I at least first heard Farage spout

So, @legometeorology, have you met this Bournemouth group and are you familiar with many of the individual members other activities, or are you going off anecdotal media appearances?

So, @legometeorology, have you met this Bournemouth group and are you familiar with many of the individual members other activities, or are you going off anecdotal media appearances?

I'm going off my experience of people involved with extinction rebellion, critical mass, occupy, climate camp, and local activist groups, mostly in Leeds but also London and Bristol and prob other places

I've no specific experience with the Bournemouth group, but if you have any evidence that they are significantly different from the wider UK culture I'm more than happy to be corrected?

Honestly though, this is a distraction

I've already said I have major concerns about the tactics of things like critical mass, and that's the point of this thread. So if people want to complain about these tactics I'm obviously not going to be rushing to the defense of anyone

There's just no need to also attack activists' character with right-wing myths. Especially when these myths are a much better description of the kids of these right-wing elites

They regularly have the representatives of these mind-blowingly stupid organisations on five live whenever they’ve pulled their latest brainless act. They are, without exception, called Lavinia Crumpton-Smythe or Sebastian Parker-Bowles and speak with the tones that only the most expensive private education can buy

The only organiser quoted in that article is called, Adam Osman. And I'm sure you'll agree, 'Adam' is the sort of name only a poncy trustafarian ****er would have 😉

So out of interest if campaign groups just entrench division blah blah blah how do people who want to campaign and effect change do so without upsetting the stw, Audi driving IT consultant set?

You can be a campaign group without taking the extinction rebellion route. You can raise awareness influence policy, improve things. It may be slow but it works while extinction rebellion just turns people off the casue.

anagallis_arvensisFull Member
So out of interest if campaign groups just entrench division blah blah blah how do people who want to campaign and effect change do so without upsetting the stw, Audi driving IT consultant set?

The Extinction Rebellion / Just Stop Oil / Insulate Britain and others have all clearly been wonderfully successful of recent years bringing a large proportion of the population on board and galvanising wider society together to force UK Govt to act, so, sure let's just have more of that sort of behaviour.

I'm sure the Daily Mail/ Telegraph / Express will have headlines that make the summer of love pail in comparison to the outpouring of love they will extol to the new cycling pressure group.

As a result I'm sure white van man will be doing secret Santa and handing out gifts to random cyclists in time for Christmas. There will be hoards of people burning their BMW's in favour of Bromptons. Cities will turn traffic free and bicycle only in time for spring next year.

There's not a shred of possibility that this could possibly increase acrimonious feeling from drivers towards existing cyclists and to imagine that this could possibly lead to more dangerous roads is clearly fanciful.

@doris5000 - the Adam’s of this world have a lot to answer for, not just Adam Sandler films

‘Adam’ is the sort of name only a poncy **** would have

Oi, I resemble that remark!

As many of you know I work for an outdoor / environmental education organisation. Founded in part with Sir David, and trying our best to connect kids to nature, health and wellbeing, better education etc.

We've recently become the target of one of these eco-protest organisations. Thier tactics are nasty, personal and sustained. They refuse to speak with us direct or meet, but are happy to harass our funders and spread lies publicly.

To confirm the trope above, the founder is Jemima and speaks really poshly....

You can be a campaign group without taking the extinction rebellion route. You can raise awareness influence policy, improve things.

Sorry you haven't really said how do they raise awareness influence policy and improve things?

The Extinction Rebellion / Just Stop Oil / Insulate Britain and others have all clearly been wonderfully successful of recent years bringing a large proportion of the population on board and galvanising wider society together to force UK Govt to act, so, sure let’s just have more of that sort of behaviour.........ad neuseium

So I'll repeat my question how can change be affected without annoying people, any examples of where a strongly worded petition or whatever has had a really impact? Is that how the suffraggetes should have done it?

So I’ll repeat my question how can change be affected without annoying people, any examples of where a strongly worded petition or whatever has had a really impact? Is that how the suffraggetes should have done it?

I’ll turn it round and ask you to show 3 positive outcomes from any of the environmental protesters in the last 5 years? Something that has actually effected change / more positive outcome for the environment towards slowing the impact on climate change. And “awareness“ doesn’t count.

From my perspective, for the last near on 15 years I’ve been working with what used to be one of the country’s biggest energy consumers. Initially I was working with industrial scale energy efficiency and load management to drive down costs their demand. I’m now pushing ahead with a staggering volume of renewables. We’re on track to go carbon neutral by 2030 and we should be able to go Carbon negative shortly after.

what I have seen since these eco protestors came to the fore around 5 years ago, is a hardening of opinion against what we’re looking to achieve. They are actual having the opposite effect that they state they want - I see it every week. I’d love to see their financing - they have been so successful at being counter productive I would not be surprised if it was found that they are being funded from some dubious places.

So you ask how they can affect change without gluing their hands to the roads - the answer is dull and involved hard work - it’s to get skilled and go and work in the industry and make a positive change and help build a more sustainable society. But it is easier just to throw a tantrum and tell others to do the hard stuff.

I’ll turn it round and ask you to show 3 positive outcomes from any of the environmental protesters in the last 5 years?

Er....

I’m now pushing ahead with a staggering volume of renewables.

That hardening of opposition, I expect it also has had the same affect on the other side of the fence.

I'll ask again, how can campaigners do anything that doesn't upset the stw, IT consultant Audi drivers?

What campaigns have ever affected serious change without upsetting people?

Extinction Rebellion don't upset me, don't inconvenience me and don't need to show me the error of my ways, they upset those who need upsetting. The hardening of sides is what they want. It galvanised both sides.

It's the same on here whenever people go on strike, loads of moaning about it inconveniencing people...that's the bloody point. Train drivers, doctors, nurses, teachers take action that annoys people and yet it works.

**edit -

on second thoughts, not going to waste my evening or a pointless argument

what I have seen since these eco protestors came to the fore around 5 years ago, is a hardening of opinion against what we’re looking to achieve

Which is odd as there has been a significant and permanent positive shift in polling with regards to the publics concern about the environment and climate in the last five years

they upset those who need upsetting.

What, like people just trying to get to work?

Yeah… really sticking it to ‘The Man’ there! 🙄

So I’ll repeat my question how can change be affected without annoying people, any examples of where a strongly worded petition or whatever has had a really impact? Is that how the suffraggetes should have done it?

There appears to be an awful lot of ignorance about the suffragette campaign, they didn’t just annoy people. It is also debatable whether their campaign was actually the thing which gained women the vote. After all their actions stopped in 1914
This for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign
Are you suggesting this is what cyclists/environmentalists should do?

Which is odd as there has been a significant and permanent positive shift in polling with regards to the publics concern about the environment and climate in the last five years

That’s down to watching what seems like constant footage of wildfires and witnessing temperatures hitting 40 degrees in Wigan rather than some nobhead called Rupert glueing himself to a motorway bridge on the M25

https://davewalker.com/climate-extremists/

I think the pressure and activist groups serve a far greater purpose than any of the establishment political parties .More power to their elbow.

So, other than a sternly worded petition no one has any idea how people should protest without annoying people?

Why protest at all? Why not engage with people in a less confrontational manner?

Have a read of the ‘Keeper of the Peak’ article in this months mag, which features a certain forum member.

That’s a prime example of positive engagement to achieve positive results

But attending boring meetings with the local council and filling out a lot of forms isn’t something you can retweet a short video about with some suitably pithy slogans, as it’s not very exciting.

It does, however, get results because that’s how the world actually works

So, other than a sternly worded petition no one has any idea how people should protest without annoying people?

As I stated above.  Rather than protest, get skilled in an area and actually work to design and build the future you want to see. Don’t tell other people to do something, do something yourself.

From an engineering perspective, I see a lot of job opportunities and meet a lot of clever, driven people who are out there actually doing something.

but it’s easier to whine, have a tantrum and tell other people to do the hard stuff.

If things need to change actually get involved in the things that effect the change. Get involved in renewables research, education, implementation, policy etc, etc. All the opportunities and budgets are out there to do so but that is actually difficult and it's easier to just shout about it in the street and turn people against you.

It's like the people that whinge about local councils. If you don't like it become a counsellor and start to actually influence change.

Be the change you want to see not just shout about how bad the current situation is.

On topic; If Mr Osman actually gave up his time to volunteer for BH Active Travel in applying for grants, infrastructure planning and active travel education that would be a much more productive use of his time in achieving his goals.

Edit: beaten to it by binners and scruff 🙂

Protests do get things done and can be much more effective than trying not to offend.  Many examples from history.

A protest that inconveniences no one can be easily ignored.

Did you read that on a poster in the common room?

KInder scout trespass
Sufragettes
Fall of Berlin wall
Greenham common

Etc etc etc

You reckon the Berlin wall came down because of protests?

Really?

Nothing to do with a collapsing economic orthodoxy?

You think that the cruise missiles were removed from Greenham Common because of protests?

Nothing to do with years of negotiations which resulted in bilateral nuclear disarmament agreements?

Seriously?

On the positive side reading this thread is aiding my understanding of what ablism is.

I hate that every time I ride on the road I get at least two close passes or  other driving antics which actually scare me. I commuted into Manchester by bike every working day for 30 years so I am used to riding in traffic and not being over sensitive.

I don't know if the people who drive badly are fueled by click bait crap from the Daily Mail, in too much of a hurry to give people room or simply oblivious, but the situation is bad and something needs to be done. Building cycle lanes and painting lines on the road is not a complete answer because there are lots of minor roads in the countryside where they are never going to build a cycle lane. Cycling UK is asking nicely for cycle lanes but doing little else to make things safer. When there are cycle lanes like in the road where I live the lovely residents park on them.

Some of the residents have aske for parking restrictions to deal with this but apparently the car drivers like things the way they are.

I don't think South coast road warriors are the answer but neither do I think that Binners snipping at TJ is either.

Sorry rant over.

I'm with @binners, I don't need a protest group "helping".

1. Riding on roads is already hard enough without being lumped in with a group actively making it hard for others.

2. Where I live in Chorlton, they're currently digging the shit out of the roads to put in what will be some pretty impressive cycling infrastructure. That wasn't a protest group, that was Andy Burnham and Chris Broadman.

stuff being built that had nothing to do with gluing your hands to a panda. 

And those saying "look at Suffragettes" well, that was over a hundred years ago. attitudes have changed. Also, their bombing campaign was deliberately aimed at empty buildings that posh upper class men left unattended, cricket pavilions, churches castles,  2nd homes 'in the country' that sort of shit. They generally didn't go after the man on the Clapham omnibus.

I do think extinction rebellion and its like are idiots but the idea that protests are useless does not bear scruitiny

@bruce - I also cycled into Manchester city centre every day for years too and the cycling infrastructure to do so now is a million miles away from what it was ten years ago. You have separated cycle lanes on a lot of the major routes in and no cars, only bus and bike lanes on the likes of Oxford Road and now the Northern Quarter, with plans to further expand these schemes.

Do you think that happened by chance?

It certainly didn't happen because of the Critical Mass bell ends annoying everyone every Friday evening when they just wanted to get home and start their weekends. I used to watch those gang of clowns and note how they weren't the same people I saw while I was commuting by bike every day

Also fairly sure the labour shortages in the first world war was the main driver in women getting the vote rather than the campaign tactics.

Agrew with other comments, we're already a geoup thats easy to other, odd when hou consider the only reason for that is we're different, add in this and we're a group that is seen as being actively antagonistic towards others and it ratchet up the othering from contempt to outright hostility.

Any other options to getting cycling infrastructure built other than becoming a world beating cycling champion?

<p style="text-align: left;">This thread only serves to show how many individuals in here are as close minded and knee jerk reactionary as the bell ends that populate any daily mail anti-cycling comments section.</p>
Thoroughly depressing.

but the idea that protests are useless does not bear scruitiny

Both the anti hunting ban and the Iragi war protests where two of the biggest this country's ever seen. I'm pretty sure hunting with dogs was still banned and we did an illegal war killing thousands in Iraq.

I agree with you that protest has its place, but I don't think they're nearly as effective as the folks that go on them think they are. (I include myself in that BTW)

@jimfrandisco - Is that what you honestly think?

You genuinely believe that looking for a more constructive and collaborative means to achieve positive outcomes for cyclists, rather than shouting at people and being confrontational and annoying, is 'knee jerk reactionary'?

Genuine question, BTW

Could you explain to me why you think thats the case?

The cycle lanes are ok but I am talking about outside the urban area where it's only better driving standards and more responsible behaviour from road users is going to improve things. To be honest some of the cycling infastructure is compromised by the inclusion of parking for cars and narrow pavements ( Rushholme).

You might live in the promised socialist utopia but the rest of us have to put up with idiots in powerful cars and mobile phones.

Any other options to getting cycling infrastructure built other than becoming a world beating cycling champion?

Not my area of direct experience, but I’d be looking at the decision makers and designers. Start at the council level - who writes the scope and design brief for the road infrastructure & look to get a job there. Again look to get your voice with whoever does the design selection and get a seat at that table.

Alternatively, who does the design; a big engineering consultancy such as Jacobs / Atkins etc? Who are brought in as consultants; sustrans etc? All of these would have scope to get involved with and to work with to produce better designs and infrastructure.

Furthermore there are companies who buy large swathes of land for putting in the utility infrastructure and putting down the layout for new towns; I H Brown are a big player in building the new town of Blindwells in East Lothian and I think Edinburghs new garden district from cammo out to the airport. Again companies like that will be all over the UK and will have scope for jobs to be one of the positive decision makers.

KInder scout trespass

Spawned the Ramblers, I think you'd struggle to find a more reactionary "pull up the ladder" small C conservative organisation.  I don't think you can call that an overall 'win'

Sufragettes

see above, aimed their protest pretty much entirely at the men who could effect a change, almost never went after the man in the street

Fall of Berlin wall

An East German Guard officer scared that he'd get mugged if he didn't open the gates after a misunderstood radio broadcast had more effect that the years and years and years of placards ever did.

Greenham common

We have just as many weapons of mass destruction now as we did back then. CND has had largely zero effect.

You might live in the promised socialist utopia but the rest of us have to put up with idiots in powerful cars and mobile phones.

I live in Greater Manchester, the same as you. I'm far less despairing than you, obviously, as what I'm seeing is a constant improvement in the cycling infrastructure through the combined authority being pro-active and engaging with cyclists.

Lets look at an example. I live in Bury and when they recently spent a lot of money putting cycle lanes in the town centre, they were so roundly mocked that it made the national press. But the people conducting the mockery were car drivers. If you're a cyclist then it made perfect sense. I was using it on my commute across Bury - where due to the new cycle lanes you can now get across the town centre completely separated from the traffic - and couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Actually... thats not true. The fuss was obviously about cyclists being given a priority. How dare we expect that, eh?

I know a few of the local councillors and they're good people, are cyclists themselves and they want to improve things for the better for cyclists

I doubt that getting confrontational and shouting at them to do it faster and better will help. Much better to be collaborative and try and continue with the steady progress

Not at all. Agree completely about finding a more constructive method.

What's depressing is people making statements along the lines of  'all protesters are middle class trustafarians'.

Is that any better than 'all cyclists jump red lights'?

Alright... its a fair cop guv.... describing them all as middle class trustafarians is obviously a sweeping generalisation.

But we all know the kind of person I'm talking about. The type of person who's perpetually brimming with righteous and furious indignation about something-or-other and they're going to let everyone know about it in the shoutiest, most confrontational manner possible.

My point is that their actions are never actually about achieving anything positive, which tends to be done in a far more quiet, reasonable and boring manner, and more about T-shirt slogans and 'look at me' videos on Twitter

I'd rather not have them claiming to represent me, thanks

There is a big difference between protesting where the inconveniencing of others is a secondary consequence and a protest where inconvenience is the primary goal. A million people gathering in central London as a visually impressive signifier of broad public way of thinking will of course inconvenience people going about their every day life if their every day life is in that part of central London. But a handful of protectors gluing themselves to a road is specifically designed to inconvenience, with the visual images it generates being of the inconvenience. Of course the former relies on a significant number of people feeling the way you do in order to mass in sufficient numbers to be impactful. The latter is the act of the hopeful, the deluded or the lazy, not prepared or able to amass sufficient strength in numbers. Or the work of the permanently angry who's prime MO in life is being angry.

I'm with binners, protesting in a way primarily intended to inconvenience or embarrass other members of the public who otherwise could have had the potential to be won over is divisive and negative in the long term. Either work towards generating mass support for your aim amongst your fellow nobodies until you are an impossible to ignore body or attempt to change the system from the inside.

I do think extinction rebellion and its like are idiots but the idea that protests are useless does not bear scruitiny

Agreed it's effective protest that is needed. You want people to engage and think. It's like trying to convince someone of something and the first thing you do is call them an idiot. They have shut down.

It needs to be thought of like a good art peace that will make you think.

KInder scout trespass
Spawned the Ramblers, I think you’d struggle to find a more reactionary “pull up the ladder” small C conservative organisation.  I don’t think you can call that an overall ‘win’

Just because you don't agree with something it doesn't mean it wasn't effective

A good example of a protest aimed at inconveniencing folk which worked is the fuel price escalator and the protests against it.  Caused a change in government policy and the fuel price escalator was dropped

The cycle lanes are ok but I am talking about outside the urban area where it’s only better driving standards and more responsible behaviour from road users is going to improve things

I would agree with that but a extinction rebellion type protest doesn't engage people or make them think so is no help in achieving those ends.

"They're green haired vandals, ignore them.. You don't want to be associated with them? They inconvenience you. Carry on driving and flying, don't feel bad, you very worked hard to have this lifestyle."

A good example of a protest aimed at inconveniencing folk which worked is the fuel price escalator and the protests against it. Caused a change in government policy and the fuel price escalator was dropped

The fuel price escalator was dropped by a Tory government who had just replaced a Labour one, as they're generally more predisposed to the interests of angry, red-faced men in 4x4's, on account of them representing their core vote

still a protest that worked.

Protest has its place - without it many of the things we take for granted would not be here

That may well have worked. But I can't imagine a driver being held up by a group from the haulage industry, the red mist descending and then deliberately targetting a lorry as soon as they're on their merry way.
I've been on the receiving end of a (professional) motorist venting their anger at me for being the unfortunate rider at the start of a line of commuters; it didn't end well for me. It's fear, of course, but it's those of us actually riding bikes that bear the brunt of this, I guarantee.

@binners yes, there's always a degree of shouty self interested people in any group. The fact that it's accepted that they're representative of everyone involved is  because it plays into a lazy media narrative.

Oh here we go again. The usual answer of our resident revolutionaries 🙄

Those of us who object to the shouty people do so because we'e unthinking lacky's, capitalist stooges, slaves to the military-industrial complex who need our opinions spoon fed to us by the tabloid press?

Does that about cover it?

Or is it that yo are merely a capitalist running dog?

Does that about cover it?

No, it's fairly simple, you don't have the answers. I doubt they do either tbh but at least they are doing something more than shouting down people on an internet chat bored and trotting out the usual tired tropes.

No, it’s fairly simple, you don’t have the answers.

If you actually read the posts, a number of us have detailed the answers. Engaging in local democracy etc to effect change without the need to be constantly shouting at people. Stop being hostile and confrontational and work collaboratively instead

I realise that doesn't sound very exciting and doesn't make for interesting revolutionary Tweets

It seems to me that some people just enjoy the process of shouting at people a bit more than trying to actually get some genuine results. Its all just posturing and not only does it not work, its totally counterproductive

Unfortunately, we all get lumped in with these idiots

Protests can and do work.

Protests can and do work.

They may do, but I am absolutely certain, I and each of my colleagues will achieve more good in a year, than the whole of Extinction rebellion/ JsO will achieve in a decade and perhaps their collective life times.

So do they work? perhaps. Are the the best way to make a change - no not in the slightest and in many cases are outright counterproductive. They are however the Easiest and least effort thing you can do to whilst pretending to be making a difference

I have no problem with protest, in fact I'm all for it. The problem I have with this is that they are aligning themselves with exstinction rebellion and just stop oil, which have set them selves out to generally just piss off motorists. We, cyclists, need motorists on our side to make change. Aligning with those groups will potentially just make the gap wider and make riding on roads more dangerous as nob head drivers take aim at the rest of us just for being there.

I'd much rather the Chris Boardman type strategy of trying to make peace rather than trying to make war, when we already have a war brewing!

@binners, I know 3 members of XR, one a co-founder. None are from privileged backgrounds, in fact the co-founder brought his sister (now my mates wife) up alone in a glasgow council flat from the age of 16. All three practice what they preach and have total commitment to a sustainable future. None own a car and one refuses to even travel in them. Two work in sustainable transport solutions and the other runs a bike collective sourcing and repairing bikes for free for the local community. All 3 are very bright, one was a top games coder straight out of uni and made a fortune (to us in the 80's/90s anyway) which he mostly gave away to various charities before dropping out to build an eco house and live off grid and carbon neutral before the Guardian readers even knew that was a thing.

Now I'm not sure if XR and JSO are achieving anything overtly positive either but to label them all as 'posho virtue signallers' is way too simplistic

Also what have you and I done thats helping reduce climate change or at least raise awareness?

I think there is probably room for protest, strikes AND those working away behind the scenes using their expertise to effect change.

I think banners will prosper under that mealy mouthed Zionist reactionary Starmer.The rest of us will have to struggle on as usual.