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Each workday lunchtime a work colleague and I watch random YouTube videos whilst having lunch. We are both engineers.
Recently we've ended up down a rabbit hole of watching shotguns being crafted at Purdey and also Westley Richards. The quality and craftsmanship is absolutely amazing and to be celebrated.
Neither of us shoot and know little about shotgun manufacturers but my question is for anyone who does know - is there a manufacturer who is the exact opposite of Purdey and are using the most modern cutting edge technologies and materials - exotic alloys/composites/laser deposition etc etc to make an F1/aerospace approach shotgun that gave a sporting edge rather than relying on traditional craftsmanship?
I was also wondering if such a gun existed would it have enough kudos to be accepted within the social confines of the shooting world or would you be laughed off the shoot for spending the equivalent of a Purdey on a 'plastic toy'
We found a Browning 525 composite but it wasn't expensive enough to contain enough 'technology' hence the question.
The AA12 is the shotgun you seek.
It will definitely give you a 'sporting edge' lol
Not really in terms of materials. Plenty with synthetic stocks, some semi autos with alloy or synthetic receivers but barrels are almost universally steel. Type of steel varies, older guns used damascus steel and some modern guns use a modern damascus for aesthetic reasons. Most use normal (not damascus) steel but the way barrels are made varies. Lots of companies claim to have invented clever chokes (slight tapering at the muzzle to control shot spread) or different barrel internal shaping such as back boring to improve patterning.
Many, if not most are almost exclusively CNC machined these days with a minimum of hand finishing, which is the opposite of the likes of Holland & Holland, Purdey etc. This obviously massively reduces costs compared to "best" London or Birmingham guns.
High end continental guns like Blaser, Caesar Guerini, Krieghoff etc do a good job of merging CNC and hand finishing for the best of both worlds. Some competition guns with adjustable stocks, high ribs, barrel weights etc look a bit "space age". But ultimately a shotgun is a steel tube on a plank of wood, you can't really make it more high tech.
I was also wondering if such a gun existed would it have enough kudos to be accepted within the social confines of the shooting world or would you be laughed off the shoot for spending the equivalent of a Purdey on a 'plastic toy'
Competition skeet, trap, sporting etc. shooters will take any perceived advantage within the rules and spend whatever it takes and not GAS what others think. A formal driven game shoot will be entirely different and much more conservative. Traditional side by sides or over and unders are more the norm.
is there a manufacturer who is the exact opposite of Purdey and are using the most modern cutting edge technologies and materials - exotic alloys/composites/laser deposition etc etc to make an F1/aerospace approach shotgun that gave a sporting edge rather than relying on traditional craftsmanship?
I'm sure there are. They will probably make most of their money making sniper rifles for military customers.
There's no such thing as Damascus steel really..
There are hushed words spoken in low tones by whirling dervishes alluding to the particular alloy used in ancient times but it's essentially cosmetic cladding over the core material to make it look fancy.
Dunno anything about guns but when it comes to high quality kitchen knives I know a little bit.
Dunno anything about guns
So it would seem. Damascus steel very much does exist and in times gone by before technology improved was the only way to make shotgun barrels. Steel strips, heated, wrapped around a mandrel and hammered into shape producing the distinctive swirl pattern. Many old damascus barrelled guns are still in use, but are not as strong as modern steel so are often proof rated only for black powder or light nitro loads. It looks lovely though. I used to own a Birmingham made hammer gun from the 1890s with lovely browned damascus barrels. I had it proved for nitro and it shot well. You are sort of correct in that some modern guns have a faux damascus cosmetic finish, but there are plenty of old barrels entirely made from it.
Google wootz steel.
I worked for purdey and AI
I enjoyed this Alec Steele video the other day.
Thanks for the info. Having had a quick look - a few of the Blaser models are what I was possibly imagining. The other brands you named appear to my eyes to still be the same as Purdeys in that they are fancy engraving and deep rich wood stocks (you can tell I don't shoot!) Whereas the Blaser is plain un-engraved with DLC coatings but still relatively expensive which would infer technology is involved in their manufacturing.
We will YouTube further next week!
But ultimately a shotgun is a steel tube on a plank of wood, you can't really make it more high tech.
I used to be in a shooting club.
At the time I was the youngest there by a fair bit, and had only joined so I could get my shotgun licence.
Some of the people weren't great shots, but would turn up every other weekend with new barrels. Fresh from the gunsmith with some fancy honing and a change of choke,they thought this was going to do the trick. Sadly,the truth was ,they couldn't shoot for shit. 🤣 🤣
I would imagine tech in the loads/ammo must have changed/improved a lot over the years.
@blokeuptheroad Is this the case,I remember that you have worked/fettled some old rifles
Dunno anything about guns
Damascus steel very much does exist and in times gone by before technology improved
That's kind of the point I was making, steel is an alloy and theres a bazillion differnent types, some types are better suited to certain applications than others depending on composition. 'damascus' doesn't really mean anything in a modern context, and whatever it may have been is probably, nay, almost certainly, inferior to modern steel alloys such as AUS-8, VG-1 , VG-10 etc, etc.
I would imagine tech in the loads/ammo must have changed/improved a lot over the years.
Changes yes, but nothing earth shattering. Wad design has improved over the years which helps patterning. The best performing wads are plastic but they aren't great for the environment. Bio degradable fibre wads are often used but the traditional ones don't pattern as well and can't be used with steel shot. There are some newer designs from new materials which can be used with steel shot, pattern well and are bio degradable. Lots of innovation in that area.
There are big moves away from lead shot, due to its toxicity. The trouble is, nothing is as cheap and ballistically efficient as lead shot. Steel shot is cheap, but can't be used in older guns, or very tight chokes and has less density and thus energy. In live game shooting it is less likely to kill cleanly than lead. Manufacturers push the velocity up to compensate, but there's a limit to how far you can go. Other materials like tin, copper, bismuth, tungsten matrix have all been used. None are as good as lead for various reasons, but lead is on the way out.
Other than that and the odd gimmick, shotgun cartridge design hasn't changed much for over a hundred years
A formal driven game shoot will be entirely different and much more conservative.
Traditional side by sides or over and unders are more the norm.
You can take an over and under to a game shoot nowadays! The horror!
I used to shoot sporting clay and a bit of skeet, some of the guns you see at the Olympics now look positively space aged in comparison.
'damascus' doesn't really mean anything in a modern context
Perhaps in regard to knives but in gunmaking and traditional shotguns which is the subject of the thread it does.
There's no such thing as Damascus steel
It was that bold statement particularly I had to take issue with!
🙂😉
@blokeuptheroad Is this the case,I remember that you have worked/fettled some old rifles
You may be remembering this thread? Sadly I've sold that old rifle and most of my other guns now. The Martini proceeds paid for my Titanium Sonder Camino! I've a couple of shotguns still, but I'll probably get rid soon. I've lost the enthusiasm for it a bit and have too many other hobbies and interests. Plus the security, licensing and bureaucracy involved is a PITA.
'damascus' doesn't really mean anything in a modern context
Perhaps in regard to knives but in gunmaking and traditional shotguns which is the subject of the thread it does.
There's no such thing as Damascus steel
It was that bold statement particularly I had to take issue with!
🙂😉
Fair enough.. not my area. I want to know the makeup of the alloy when buying a knife.. and I don't think anyone really knows what 'damascus' really means... how much nickel, how much carbon, chromium, manganese, molybdenum etc?
As you were. 😉
@mattyfez 👍 Understood about the spec of the alloy and percentage of constituent metals. In gunmaking "damascus" refers to the barrel manufacturing technique far more than the precise alloy make up, which may be the confusion. If you are interested there's a very good explanation of the process here.
Changes yes, but nothing earth shattering.
Sights would seem to be the logical area to "improve" with variants on the anti drone computerised sights they are coming up with which tell you exactly how much to offset by. That or do the job properly and go for airburst shells.
I assume turning up with a Purdey and a massive electronic sight mounted on it might be considered unsporting though.
Another question whilst I've got your attention!
How much damage / wear and tear does a gun receive during a shoot or season?
Those Purdeys and others of similar ilk are things of beauty but are used outdoors in all weather's. Do they get dropped or fall over?
Do gun manufacturers have service departments and can the handmade elements of them eg engraving be repaired?
When I was learning to shoot clays as a yoot, I was lent this little ropey old 20 gauge shotgun that had a bit of a loose stock.
I used to get a bruise across my aiming cheek from the whip 😂
I used to want to be a gunsmith and probably could have gotten on ok with it but went into furniture.
Not really a fan of guns and knives and all that shizzle these days but of course appreciate the astounding craftsmanship that goes into some of them.
Another question whilst I've got your attention!
How much damage / wear and tear does a gun receive during a shoot or season?
Not much. Modern shotgun cartridges are non corrosive (this wasn't always the case). Shotguns are very reliable, can shoot thousands of cartridges a year and just work with very little maintenance. More damage is done by over enthusiastic cleaning than by shooting them. They should however be cleaned after use, a quick brush of the bores and a wipe over the exterior is pretty much it. You do get streaks of lead and plastic in the bores which can build up but is easily brushed out. A lot of modern guns have chrome lined barrels so are very resistant to corrosion.
The shiny blued steel exterior is a little more needy. If used in the rain or even if you have sweaty hands it's possible to leave superficial corrosion or rusty fingerprints on them. A wipe with an oily rag stops this and a lot of people put dessicant bags or dehumidifiers in gun cabinets to help stop rust.
Of course things can go wrong. Firing pins can break, ejectors can stop working and if a gun is used heavily for many years, it can become "loose on its face", sloppiness can develop where the breech face and barrels meet. This can be easily fixed by a gunsmith. The barrels on older guns can eventually wear too thin to be considered safe. Usually after many decades and tens or hundreds of thousands of cartridges and probably too much aggressive bore brushing. There are recommended minimum barrel wall thicknesses and a good gunsmith will have a set of gauges to measure this. This is really only an issue on very old guns
You can get a gun serviced at the start of the season by any competent gunsmith. My own view is this isn't really necessary with a modern gun that is looked after.
Do gun manufacturers have service departments and can the handmade elements of them eg engraving be repaired?
Yes, the posh makers do. Engraving is cosmetic and won't affect the function or safety of the gun. Only very expensive guns are hand engraved. A lot of the best engravers are very much in demand and freelance for a number of high end gunmakers. They are highly skilled artists who have usually served very long apprenticeships. Most engraving you see on more affordable guns is etched or machine rolled/stamped.
There's no such thing as Damascus steel really..
There are hushed words spoken in low tones by whirling dervishes alluding to the particular alloy used in ancient times but it's essentially cosmetic cladding over the core material to make it look fancy.Dunno anything about guns but when it comes to high quality kitchen knives I know a little bit.
No? There are a whole bunch of Japanese sword smiths and custom knife makers who might like to have a quiet conversation about that. Old shotgun barrels are clearly made from a Damascus equivalent, folded steel is a (relatively) common material, it can be bought as stock from steel makers.
https://sciencenotes.org/what-is-damascus-steel-difference-between-original-and-modern/
As @blokeuptheroad says, the traditional double barrel shotgun is the most common one you'll generally see on a game shoot, nowadays mostly sideXside or Over/Under. I occasionally join a syndicate that shoots only black powder shotguns, and some of their guns are things of real beauty, ornate with damascus barrels which tend to be browned rather than blued. Some of the old guys use muzzle loaders and even the odd flintlock. There are however a number that have breech loading guns, with external hammers. I borrowed a gun made in 1870 and was provided with a bagful of home loaded cartridges on one of the days. It was far sweeter to shoot than a modern gun, with a push/nudge rather than any sharp recoil as the powder burns slower than the modern nitro cartridge.
Competition clay shooting features the over/under almost exclusively. There are some shooters who use a semi-auto or self loading shotguns, which are limited by law to magazines with a max capacity of 2 shells, giving a total of three shots, but no clay discipline allows more than two shots in any case. They are completely banned on most, if not all game shoots as they have fixed barrels and you can't tell from a distance whether or not they are loaded.
Competition clay guns have been evolving over the last 30 or 40 years. The basic design is the same, a simple pair of tubes with a breech which opens or gapes to allow the shells to be inserted, and a firing pin to fire the shot. Barrel lengths have increased by a few inches, and the internal bore shape has evolved from straight tubes, often choked at the end to tighten the shot pattern, to exotic overbored, shaped barrels to make the most of the shot discharge, and nearly every competition gun you see will have a "multichoke" system with changeable choke tubes of varying restrictions,some ported to reduce recoil or muzzle flip (where allowed). Most modern barrels are chrome lined and modern powder is non-corrosive, so barrel wear is minimal. My competition gun is now 28 years old, and has worn out a couple of firing pins, some ejector springs and has needed a new hinge pin to tighten the breech lock up.
If you watch Olympic skeet or trap shooters you'll see various exotic recoil reducing stocks, raised ribs, fancy pistol grips and so on. In competition shooting the major technological advances have been internal with sliding barrel weights for balancing the gun, fancy trigger mechanisms, but you can get replacement stocks with hydraulic pistons which smooth out the recoil and keep the gun on target for second shot.
Practical shotgunning is a discipline growing in popularity, and this is where you'll see the most advanced exotica. It's based on the sort of tactical shotguns used by military and law-enforcement, and are generally subject to much more stringent licensing. I don't pretend to know much about it, but imagine the Gravy Seal types doing house clearances and close-quarter battle-zone stuff against the clock. I'll leave them to it.
There are some shooters who use a semi-auto or self loading shotguns, which are limited by law to magazines with a max capacity of 2 shells, giving a total of three shots, but no clay discipline allows more than two shots in any case. They are completely banned on most, if not all game shoots as they have fixed barrels and you can't tell from a distance whether or not they are loaded.
A bit like crossbows are totally banned from use at archery clubs in the U.K. Absolutely no point in owning one, unless you’re the proud owner of a garden an acre or so in size where you can shoot to your heart’s content.
Semi autos are fine on clay grounds, their reciprocating bolts mean they are soft on the shoulder, and you often see them being carried with a safety flag in the breech to show they’re empty.
They’re also used by pest controllers or pigeon shooters.
You can get them with larger magazines, but you need a firearms licence rather than a shotgun certificate and that isn’t easy to show a good reason unless you are a professional such as a gamekeeper.
A bit like crossbows are totally banned from use at archery clubs in the U.K. Absolutely no point in owning one, unless you’re the proud owner of a garden an acre or so in size where you can shoot to your heart’s content.
I'm curious if you extrapolated all that from Scapegoat's "...no clay discipline allows more than two shots in any case." comment, or was built on some incorrect knowledge you already had.
Semi-autos are very popular for clay shooting, you just only load two cartridges not three if competing. If you're not competing, which of course is most of the time, you're perfectly allowed to load three cartridges. Semi-autos are also very widely used for pigeon decoying, as it's one of the few pest control situations where a third shot can sometimes be useful. Obviously if you are shooting live quarry with a semi-auto, then it would be irresponsible not to practice extensively with it on clays. There's also an argument that loading a semi-auto is easier in the confines of a hide as you don't need to 'break' the gun.
I would also suggest that an acre is considerably smaller than you think it is, if you think it's enough land to play around with shotguns.
I think he meant crossbows rather than shotguns, hence the "no point owning them" bit. If the law doesn't allow you to hunt with them, you can't use them at archery ranges, then unless you have private land on which to use them there doesn't seem to be much point.
I think he meant crossbows rather than shotguns, hence the "no point owning them" bit. If the law doesn't allow you to hunt with them, you can't use them at archery ranges, then unless you have private land on which to use them there doesn't seem to be much point.
Ah yes, I think you are correct. But the crossbow / semi-auto comparison is still not valid as there are plenty of reasons to use a semi-auto, and plenty of places you can legally use them outside of your own land.
Now look up how shot is made using the drop process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_tower
And a 20 bore Silver Pigeon and I still can't hit the clays. Some magic steel won't help me!
I'm also a Silver Pigeon owner, albeit in 12 bore! I'm ashamed to say I'm not great with a shotgun, much better with a rifle. Someone once said "shotgun shooting is an art, rifle shooting is a science". I think that's true.
Depends on what I’m shooting. I’m pretty mediocre at sporting clays, but have shot for the England and GB Police teams at Trap. Skeet. is a work in progress…
A keen game shooter, I use the 20 for pheasant and a .410 for partridge early season.
I shot rifle as a school sport (those were the days!) and was pretty successful. Nowadays I do a fair bit of stalking and pest control. A mate has access to a range with targets at various distances out to 1000 yards, and I’m in a club that books onto MOD ranges, so long range plinking has become a bit of a hobby.
LOLs - I've got two Silver Pigeons, one 12 and one 20!
(well three if you include my Dad's one as well that he's just handed over me to flog for him as at 94 yrs old he's finally hung up his spurs).
I use to shoot vermin, game and occasionally clays. It seems to be one talent I have is a good aim, I had a cheapish make I think it was Russian. It wasn’t a bad gun, not as beautifully refined and engineered as the extravagant models. Didn’t stop me being a decent shout though but I suppose the may be a marginal difference with more precision engineered makes.
Edit: It was a Baikal.
@Drac, I got my first "real" gun, as I considered it (not an airgun) at age 14 as soon as I got my certificate. A Baikal single barrel 12 bore underlever. I paid £30 for it new, from Monks of Chester. Sturdy guns that shot well, if not the most elegant! This was in the days when you could buy shotguns mail order through the Littlewoods or Kays catalogues!