-The smart way to make money out of cryptocurrencies would be to attempt to trade them as you would commodities, with significant sums invested, then get in and out quick as the market fluctuates.
Not sure I would recommend that to anyone unless well versed in day trading.
Too easy to get caught in a pump and dump. (Happened to me, lost 400 quid.) Also fees make it hard work.
I would say go for the long term on BTC.
Example: Traded bitcoin for a few days and made about 150 quid. If I'd left in the same period it almost doubled it's value. And no fees.
Not sure I would recommend that to anyone unless well versed in day trading
Precisely
Also fees make it hard work.
Which makes you view it as a longer term investment. Yet it’s about as volatile a market as they come. That’s my point... Those with the most to gain are upselling the benefits of investing and downplaying the risks, and where pray tell have we heard that before...? This is going to be a more modern version of the global financial crisis... A select few will make a lot of money, a handful will make a tidy sum, but most people will lose money in the long run and some will lose out big time!
I would say go for the long term on BTC.
Which is what everyone is saying, hence the perpetuating hype, continuining investment, and the continual rise in value of it... THE BUBBLE WILL BURST! It won’t go on forever, my £100 isn’t going to be £1000 in 12 months, £10k another 12 months later and £100k 12 months after that...
THE BUBBLE WILL BURST! It won’t go on forever, my £100 isn’t going to be £1000 in 12 months, £10k another 12 months later and £100k 12 months after that...
Of course it will. But if you can get your money out again before your £100 is worth less than £100, you're quids in, no?
Knowing when to do that, that's the tricky bit.
It's all very fascinating , and each stage of its growth it has exceeded expectations.
I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to 40-60,000 in 2018.
They said 10,000 by xmas and people laughed it off.
It got there by November.
Stuff like this only comes around every 20 years or so. May as well jump on!
A Looney friend of mine told me to get on it in March. I laughed it off.
I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to 40-60,000 in 2018.
Yeah a bit like Amway or any old Ponzi scheme - got to get more people in!
Yeah a bit like Amway or any old Ponzi scheme - got to get more people in
This Ponzi thing is getting tossed about without any consideration for its definition.
For a start Amway can't be a Ponzi because there is a product to generate the money. Amway is an MLM - multi level marketing scheme.
The term Ponzi is based around an investment that only generates its money by the introduction of a new tier of investors at the bottom level.
Bitcoin is not a Ponzi. At worst it's a bubble or a speculative investment. It's price is based on market demand just like any other trading asset.
I don't refer anyone and have not control over how other people invest in it.
It's not a Ponzi.
Watch Wizard of Lies.
But if you can get your money out again before your £100 is worth less than £100, you're quids in, no?Knowing when to do that, that's the tricky bit.
Of course...
But like all of the greatest “get rich quick schemes” there’s ever been, it relies on human greed and the inability to know when the right time is by most, so the few can make a LOT of money.
When BTC crashes, it will crash hard! It won’t be a slow decline, there will be people who’ve invested their nest egg in it that come out with nothing! Imagine going into a business meeting, smug in the knowledge that your £10k investment is now “worth” over £100k already and you only invested in it 12 months ago, yet 1hr later you come out of that meeting and your investment is now worth just £1k and with no prospects of recovering... This could be the reality for many!
Stuff like this only comes around every 20 years or so. May as well jump on!
I quite agree... But I’ll refer to my first point I made in my first post... Only invest what you can afford to lose! This is a high risk investment, it could crash just as quickly (probably much quicker) than it has risen if and when the banks decide they’ve let everyone have enough fun and it’s their turn on the action.
Yeah a bit like Amway or any old Ponzi scheme - got to get more people in!
Precisely... No new investors, no continued share value increase.
This Ponzi thing is getting tossed about without any consideration for its definition.
I think the key words were “a bit like” in Mudsharks statement. BTC isn’t a Ponzi otherwise it would be illegal, but close as Damn it is to swearing it’s about as close as you’ll legally get to a Ponzi on a global scale!
For a start Amway can't be a Ponzi because there is a product to generate the money. Amway is an MLM - multi level marketing scheme.
Anyway is Pyramid Selling... Basically a Ponzi legalised by selling products (that nobody really wants). You don’t make money from Amway by actually selling the tat that they sell, you make money by recruiting new sales people, who then invest into the business with a hope of returning on their investment. It’s so close to a Ponzi it’s untrue, but it’s legal because there is a product involved...
The term Ponzi is based around an investment that only generates its money by the introduction of a new tier of investors at the bottom level.
This is really starting to sound familiar!
Bitcoin is not a Ponzi. At worst it's a bubble or a speculative investment. It's price is based on market demand just like any other trading asset.
Yep, but there’s no tangible product, and the value of the investment relies almost entirely on new investors in the market... Like I said above, it’s as close as Damn it is to swearing!
I don't refer anyone and have not control over how other people invest in it.
You’re the exception not the rule in that case. Maybe you should... You’ll make more money!
It's not a Ponzi.
Alright Bernie Madoff, keep your hair on, we get the point!
We know it isn’t a Ponzi scheme, but it really is effing close in the way it works! The key to that being the selling of the premise that it is only going to go up and up and up in value, and to get in now otherwise you will lose out. Which is actually kinda true. But the small details are left out by everyone in that it is an investment in nothing, pretty much a global scale confidence trick, and that when either the growth begins to halt or the banks decide they’ve had enough of the plebs making money without them, it is going to go into epic freefall! The key is to be like the guy that sold MySpace for a huge sum, when 12 months later it was virtually worthless as we’d all moved on to Facebook...
There's a rich history of not-quite-Ponzi schemes that built stuff but lost all the investor's money. Victorian railways, the great Victorian cemeteries, the London docks and arguably the channel tunnel are examples.
If you're timing's perfect you'll make loads of money but that's more luck than judgement.
Good luck.
Alright Bernie Madoff, keep your hair on, we get the point
I haven't got any hair.
It's not a Ponzi. There isn't one person at the top doling out to folk below.
It's closest in analogy to tech stock pre the boom of 2001.
I don't agree with your description. I think it's a simple case of demand of something that will be revolutionary further down the line.
Time will tell.
Yep, but there’s no tangible product, and the value of the investment relies almost entirely on new investors in the market
The tangible product is the technology it sits on.
I am afraid you are all wrong as usual.
No one has yet pointed out the main reason to buy Bitcoin - it's good fun and quite exciting!
It will be interesting to revisit this thread in a year's time. That is if I can still afford an internet connection. On my yacht.
The tangible product is the technology it sits on.
Interesting as it is (I’m not feigning that, I am actually interested in it), you can’t touch it, feel it, hold it in your hands... So by its very nature it is not tangible!
We are investing in a load of 1’s and 0’s held on hard drives across the world, when it comes down to it it is no more sexy than that sadly!
It's not a Ponzi. There isn't one person at the top doling out to folk below.
Is really the single biggest difference that indeed means it is not one.
No one has yet pointed out the main reason to buy Bitcoin - it's good fun and quite exciting!
I quite agree! It is exciting. Revolutionary even! It’s the people taking power back from the banks and some of them getting rich whilst doing so too... Modern day Robin Hoods if you will. There’s just far too many caveats to see it as a safe investment like so many people are trying to sell it as. When was the last time a “safe” investment increased in share value by 10 fold inside 12 months, and gave you a 1% daily ROI whilst it was working for you...?
Fingers crossed that we can all make a bit of money out of this, and that it gives the banking system the much needed kick up the arse it needs. However, greed (as per usual) will be its undoing, and when it crashes it will do so very spectactularly taking a lot of people’s fortunes with it... Have a game plan, stick to it, don’t get greedy and you’ll be fine.
However, greed (as per usual) will be its undoing
Greed is the only thing keeping it going!
It's nothing more than a massive speculative bubble.
Modern day Robin Hoods if you will.
Please explain how you rationalise this, I'd love to hear your explanation!
Interesting as it is (I’m not feigning that, I am actually interested in it), you can’t touch it, feel it, hold it in your hands... So by its very nature it is not tangible!
go to one of the huge mining server farms in China and tell me that's not tangible.
They are the point of it - they are the things that make the network secure - the amount of programming grunt you would need to corrupt the chain is comlpetely impractical - and creating bitcoin for the miners was part of the incentivisation that caused people to create this huge amount of mining power.
When the creation of bitcoin ceases then miners will get less revenue but they will still get revenue based on the transaction fees, which may go up.
Fiat currency isn't backed by any tangible assets nowadays anyway - and governments also create money on the fly with QE for example, so there's not a lot of difference. It's all about having confidence.
Governments don't like these crypto currencies because of the anonymous nature of it, difficult to regulate and monitor. Massive problem for laundering and KYC.
It's nothing more than a massive speculative bubble.
yep, it is like a gold rush - the underlying technologies have some real promise.
When the creation of bitcoin ceases then miners will get less revenue but they will still get revenue based on the transaction fees, which may go up.
They will go up and so transaction costs will be high and time to execute a sell will at times be far too long given the dramatic price movements. The processing power needed to perform a transaction is just ridiculous - sort of the point but what a waste in a world that's supposed to be becoming more energy efficient.
Fiat currency isn't backed by any tangible assets nowadays anyway - and governments also create money on the fly with QE for example, so there's not a lot of difference. It's all about having confidence.
Spot on. Fiat currency is the flimsiest of things.
Hence UK Government debt is a charade.
Scenario - Trump marches into North Korea with his catapult and fringe. At the same time it all kicks off big time between Israel and Palestine. Massive earthquake in San Fran. My other half finds a packet of cigarettes in my jacket. Financial markets tumble.
Do you think bitcoin value would go up or down if such worldwide panic were to take hold?
It's all about having confidence.
Spot on. Fiat currency is the flimsiest of things.
How do you have confidence in a cryptocurrency?
Spot on. Fiat currency is the flimsiest of things.
It's entirely based on confidence in the institutions that stand behind it.
So in the UK that's effectively the whole state and the power to take in taxes of over £700 billion per year that comes with that.
In the case of a cryptocurrency that would be the nebulous organisation that sets the rules. When things start to go properly wrong this organisation will evaporate like a dawn mist.
The people buying bitcoin are generally no longer doing this so that they can use it as a means of payment, they are buying it as a speculative investment. In my view this calls into question whether it is a currency at all.
It's up 30% since it hit $10,000!
How do you have confidence in a cryptocurrency?
if it is fungible ?
Is it just a coincidence as soon as STW gets interested in cryptocurrencies this happens...? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42237162
nearly £10,000 a coin!?
interesting article about the possible result of being able to buy futures on bitcoin...
https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-futures-make-way-new-kind-whale/
Almost £11,000 now! I bought £100 of BTC, now worth £280 and I’m considering selling as it’s just a bit of fun for me. I haven’t set up a GBP wire from Coinbase so it’d be sitting in my wallet, unable to do anything with it. We shall see...
Edit: I’ve chickened out and sold, so sitting with £280 in my GBP wallet for now. I may get back in once it drops below £9k
Well, after reading the thread and a couple of the links I have decided I still haven't got a clue and will be going to rob the local TSB branch tomorrow instead.
That will probably go badly but at least I understand why. 😀
(Even had to Google FOMO for Gods sake!)
Almost £11,000 now! I bought £100 of BTC, now worth £280 and I’m considering selling as it’s just a bit of fun for me. I haven’t set up a GBP wire from Coinbase so it’d be sitting in my wallet, unable to do anything with it. We shall see
If you move to blockchain.info for your wallet you can get the money out.
I've put into 500 now worth over 1060 , I'm leaving it as the potential upside and long-term craziness is worth the risk for me.
I do take some profit occasionally though.
$64 million worth of bitcoin stolen from wallet in hack. Not so safe after all
If you wallet is on NiceHash, might be worth checking it.
A tough day for the cryptos! Bitcoin is looking bad but Ripple has really slumped
You're right. Down to only 460% roi 🙄
https://twitter.com/CryptoMoriarty/status/944198477172695041
Mines only worth around three times what I paid for it now, DISASTER!
Still sliding, think it will drop to Autumn 2017 price before recovering.
When the Tether scam propping up the price unwinds it's going to be a bloodbath.Still sliding, think it will drop to Autumn 2017 price before recovering
sweepy - Member
Mines only worth around three times what I paid for it now, DISASTER!
It's worth nothing until you get it out, until then it's just a risk
I hope those who remortgaged to invest around a month ago are feeling as confident as those who got in earlier. Ripple's down about 2/3rds.
No doubt it will all recover...or not.
remember - only invest what you can afford to lose.
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Let's see if this year does the same
Oh right, it's the Chinese selling off ($250 billion) to buy train tickets and presents for the Lunar New Year.
In other news: http://fortune.com/2017/12/05/bitcoin-btc-price-usd-tether-limited-bitfinex/
The $ price of bitcoin is an artifice. There are now billions of USDT in circulation, allegedly backed 1-to-1 by actual dollars:
https://wallet.tether.to/transparency
Quite. A relative tried to cash out of Kraken around Christmas. I'm still not sure if he has got his money. Kraken also recently went off air for 48 hours after 'routine' maintenance. Coinbase regularly suspends trading. Bitconnect pyramid scheme has just disappeared off the face of the planet etc. etc. etc.It's worth nothing until you get it out
Someone has just opened a Cryptocurrent exchange shop close to my London place. The guy working in it wears the shiniest suit I've ever seen so I suspect there will be a fraud case involved at some point...!
How does everyone feel about crypto currency backed by gold ?
What does that even mean? If you mean whoever is behind the currency holds a gold reserve equal to the market capitalisation of the currency then that's not going to happen.
ripple seems to have turned into more of a waterfall today.
It's bouncing now - time to buy...?!
Yeah, looks like it's starting to recover a bit (I'm watching & hoping as I bought some yesterday :p ).
The royal mint just announced a gold backed cryptocurrency , so presumably means something...
Not really a bitcoin then, sounds like just buying and selling cold using a blockchain to keep track of who owns what. In which case as there is a real asset being traded, with a known and relatively stable market value it is nothing like bitcoin etc where you just trade nothing.
so should just follow gold prices with very small changes in price over time? Unless people get caught up in the hype of crypto and drive the price of gold up?
Still long here and topping up.
>I dumped 25% of my ETH because I felt it was overvalued.
How do you decide the correct value of a crypto?!
And I've just got my BitStamp verification through. As part of my 'proof of id/address' I sent them a photo of a bill with a red 'overdue' to see what would happen 🙂 Nothing 🙂
It's a brave person who buys against the trend right now. Maybe we are beyond Fear and now into<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> Capitulation?</span>
The whole market has always been a bit crazy, none of the coins are worth anything in any meaningful sense.
I'm out, for now anyway 🙂
John McAfee has vowed to eat his penis if BTC isn't 1mil by 2020, so there's contrary opinions out there!
"How<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;"> do you decide the correct value of a crypto?!"</span>
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">Number go up = good</span>
Number go down = bad
Well that's just it, you can't get a value other than a speculative one. Sure, there are a few uses for bitcoin and its ilk but no real acceptance out there. They are not really a currency.
Crypto is hugely speculative. In 2017 it formed a classic bubble, which is now bursting. Many people who got in late are going to take a big hit.
But in the longer run, ETH and maybe another ALT, which resolves Bitcoin's fundamental problems, will form major asset classes and change the internet, especially in terms of contracts and E-Commerce payments.
This crash is probably the best thing that could have happened as too many people were getting involved in Crypto via gambling/speculation.
@curiousyellow, probably best to continue with your long term strategy. The only thing that needs to be regularly revised is your investment allocation, e.g. how much is btc, how much is in eth, how much in alts. That's where learning about the technology will pay off in investment terms, as a lot of coins are going to disappear over the next six months.
I think eth will surpass btc in market value this year.
Just because the Blockchain has a future, doesn't mean any of the current currencies do. I suspect 99% will vanish and one or two might survive in some regulated form, but at grossly diminished values.
Blockchain tech is 10 years old now. Bitcoin has turned out to be badly designed in terms of innovation. Eth now has the bigger developer economy and some apps are gaining traction.
I think btc will hang around as digital gold. Eth will develop smart contracts and replace the need for middle man corporations.
There will be a better version of bitcoin that ultimately wins the race.
And the markets bounce back a bit! Lambos to the moon people!
Wait... is it Tesla Roadsters to Mars now?
There will be a better version of bitcoin that ultimately wins the race
Agreed, I'm just hoping it's Ripple
I've been keeping my eyes on this thread for a while and have decided I'm going to have a dabble in the whole cryptocurrency thing. So I'm going to throw in a couple of hundred quid and see what happens (Well prepared to lose the lot).
I have signed up to Coinbase but haven't purchased anything yet as from what I've read it's actually next to impossible to get any money back out of it to a UK based bank account. So I've also been looking at blockchain.info. For those of you using this is it any easier to actually get any money out of it and back to GBP?
Thanks
You can get money back all ways.
Blockchain.info can come back to debit card no problem. You will have fees.
Cheapest method but most convoluted is:
Bank - revolut (euros) to coinbase then to gdax (coinbase's linked pro trading platform) fees are free then. Reverse to come back.
I have been all the way and it's worth time and effort plus revolut is so flexible and useful irrespective.
For beginners i would recommend blockchain.info - IF they accept your debit card.
Search on you tube for gdax free trading and watch the film.
Ask me any questions ive made all mistakes for everyone already. 🙂
Thanks, I'll have a look at that gdax free trading video later on. What are the actual fees like through Blockchain?
Off the top of my head for debit card they were 3% im sure. A bit less than coinbase.
I transferred from Coinbase to Revolut and then to my bank. Done this for both bitcoin and Ethereum. Bit of a pain to get it all set up but ok once all approved and working.
I transferred from Coinbase to Revolut and then to my bank
Did you buy with coinbase or gdax? Coinbase there is still a fee.
Bought with Coinbase as well. I bought some in November then sold half when they doubled to get my money back and now the plan is to leave them for a few years and see what happens.
Thanks lads. Gav in what way was it a pain getting the payments set up from Coinbase > Revolut > your bank?
And did you sell in Coinbase then transfer from your GBP wallet to Revolut?
It was just a pain researching it all, setting it up and then getting the accounts verified etc. Revolt > my bank was no problem. Like I said once it’s all up and running it’s fine. Also didnt help reading loads of articles about it not working or money going missing and at the time I was trying to get the money out asap but I’ve never had any issues with the few transactions i did.
Anyway I sold in Coinbase (but you have to sell in euros) then transferred to my euro account in Revolut (make sure you set up a euro and sterling account). Then transferred from euro Revolut account to sterling bank.
They make it easier to buy in Coinbase but a lot harder to get your money out!
If you get a Fidor bank account you can transfer to Kraken for a flat fee of £2.50 using a SEPA transfer. Your money shows up on Kraken as Euros.
Transfer back in from Kraken via SEPA to any bank that accepts them. Kraken charge .09 of a Euro for a transfer out in Euro. Your bank then applies whatever the exchange rate is for the money inbound.
verification on Coinbase was a pig, so I gave up after a while.
Thanks, I now feel slightly more confident about being able to get money out once I've put it in, even if it's a bit of a hassle at first 🙂
For sure.
I'd also suggest having a target for what you want the coins you buy to reach. This will keep you disciplined. Know what you want from it, and take profits as you get there. Know what you want your money to do for you.
Also, if you're going to buy and hold instead of actively day trade, then look at taking your coins off the exchange and holding them in an offline wallet. Exchanges get compromised all the time.
At the very minimum have 2FA setup.
Good luck.
You can use Vaults on Coinbase to add extra security for Buy and Hold.
The key is to remember all these Cryptos could be worth zero in a couple of months and trade accordingly, i.e. only put in what you can afford to lose and don't bet the house on it. There is a lot of misplaced anger in the sector - the idea that there is justice in the world, and that Crypto will reform a corrupt monetary system - which gets in the way of making good decisions.
Last time I checked there is no justice in the world and never will be.
I'll be sure to have 2FA verification activated at least. It's just a bit of fun to be honest, I'll throw in £200 and see what happens, If I manage to double my initial input I'll remove what I've put in and then in theory it'll have cost me nothing but my time. I'm not expecting to retire on the proceeds 🙂
Just to be clear to take advantage of no fees you have to buy btc thorough gdax.
There's a kiosk in Moorgate (London) that buys and sells various crypto - bitcoin, ether and some others I think - guy at work sold £50 of bitcoin yesterday there - you get a receipt with a QR on it and then visit the kiosk again when it has confirmed to get the cash - waited about 16 minutes yesterday, Fees were around 10 percent.
Visit a kiosk and pay 10% fees? Wow this crypto really is everything it's cracked up to be 🙂
So when is Bitcoin going to hit $40K?
So, how are all the BC fanatics doing?
