“unbelievable that you would try to blame this on access laws.”
Without such archaic laws we’d not have this kind of confrontation. The issue reported wasn’t one of dangerous riding leading to confrontation, it originates purely from the laws around rights of way.
In no way am I advocating violence and it’s entirely plausible that the offender would deal with any level of confrontation in this manner, but what led to this confrontation?
Without such archaic laws we’d not have this kind of confrontation.
What, no one would punch someone else in the face?
Unless you were there how do you know what the confrontation was about?
It would be a shame if this discussion was reduced to "battering old people" vs "riding on footpaths".
Or has that already happened?
It would be a shame if this discussion was reduced to “battering old people” vs “riding on footpaths”.
I'd go with battering old people being worse. Unless the riding on a footpath was undertaken on an EEB, that's a whole new level of skullduggery.
The issue reported wasn’t one of dangerous riding leading to confrontation, it originates purely from the laws around rights of way
You are are either one of the 3 riders described, the injured party or you just completely made that up.
The issue reported wasn’t one of dangerous riding leading to confrontation, it originates purely from the laws around rights of way
And that's a fair mitigation for creating the conditions for conflict from converging users perspectives, and there's value in having that discussion.
But responsibility for hands getting thrown is totally at the feet of those who choose that as a course of action.
Behaviour is a choice and no amount of trying to scapegoat rules is going to distract from that in the eyes of the law.
What’s the saying about holding two opposing thoughts?
Dunno. I only have space for one at a time and even then it's probably wrong. 😉
“unbelievable that you would try to blame this on access laws.”
Without such archaic laws we’d not have this kind of confrontation. The issue reported wasn’t one of dangerous riding leading to confrontation, it originates purely from the laws around rights of way.
We don't have such archiac access laws in Scotland, but:
- its not inconceivable to me the three pricks on bikes might punch an old guy for little or no reason
- its not inconceivable to me that a person (perhaps an older person) wrongly shouts at cyclists for riding in places they are permitted to
- its not inconceivable to me that people on bikes ride in places, or in manners where its not responsible to do so
- its not inconceivable to me that when challenged bike riders might be come confrontational
I say those are not inconceivable because except for punching an old guy I've seen all of the above in Scotland despite our "enlightened" access laws.
In no way am I advocating violence and it’s entirely plausible that the offender would deal with any level of confrontation in this manner, but what led to this confrontation?
You are effectively advocating violence by even asking "what led to this confrontation", and implying that there might be some set of circumstances where smacking an old guy, even an angry old guy, is a reasonable course of conduct. I can only assume you are sort of person who if sitting on a jury hearing how a young woman was raped say, yeah but what was she doing out at night dressed like that; or that a man has hit his wife says, yeah but she could be a nagging cow.
Without such archaic laws we’d not have this kind of confrontation. The issue reported wasn’t one of dangerous riding leading to confrontation, it originates purely from the laws around rights of way.
I am not sure that is true. Plenty of cases of people getting aggressive against cyclists on bridleways or trying to prevent walkers walking on footpaths.
Sadly lots of people on here think it's their God-given right to ride their bikes where ever they like. In their own minds they are like some contemporary Citizen Smith character sticking it to the Man. It's quite simple really, follow rule no.1 - don't be a dick. Don't ride where you are not supposed to and try to reduce conflict with other users of the countryside.
FWIW, I don't agree with the access rights here in England but I don't act like a selfish moron either.
Don’t ride where you are not supposed to and try to reduce conflict with other users of the countryside.
I agree with your post in general but I'm completely over not riding on footpaths in the countryside. It's a ridiculous rule and it can absolutely be done whilst not breaking Rule 1 as many in here will testify.
Since Scotland introduced righ to roam, nobody has been punched in the face, a problem that was far too commonplace before and was a key driver for change.
Sauce please.
Too many on here resort to "othering" and stereotypes in this kind of thing, stuck in their own culture war.
I've encountered far more rude, inconsiderate and entitled mountain bikers out on the trail than I have walkers. The default "the walker must have said something" line is ridiculous. This thread should never have got off the ground - none of us were there and we have **** all to usefully contribute.
Including me, to be fair.
Sauce please.
I suspect that it was said tongue in cheek
This thread should never have got off the ground – none of us were there and we have **** all to usefully contribute.
Including me, to be fair.
Agreed (and me really).
But I'm still going to carry on riding on footpaths and not battering old people.
Actually deleted as it's OT.
I think its a case of the old chap remonstrated their riding, possibly he felt they got too close to him or were too fast and that went from conversation to argument.
Likely turned into a bit of a pushy pushy, words exchanged, escalating to sweary words and ended up with one of the riders, possibly a bit hyped from the ride, lamped the old guy.
.
But either way, no need for it, but in the heat of the moment these things do happen, it appears to at least be a big part of human nature. We cant all be the Dalai Lama.
But at least nobody is dead or in intensive care. Wounds heal, and this time next year it will likely be a distant memory.
.
The end result is old chap has a bit of psychological damage, and bit of facial damage, and when the cops catch up with the riders, they're probably going to end up with a fine, which may impact on their job/life etc.
I think we've all been there at some point.
I love this fantasy idea that the underfunded, under resourced police force are going to track down 3 blokes on bikes with little more than a pretty vague description. Hope they do... but they won't.
Whose "fantasy idea" is that?
According to the link in the OP:
Police are urgently asking people to come forward if they recognise the three men from their descriptions, or you were in the Pickering area that day and may have seen them elsewhere.
Anyone with information is asked to email craig.hardcastle@northyorkshire.police.uk, or call 101 and ask for Craig Hardcastle. Alternatively, you can contact Crimestoppers via their website or 0800 555 111. Quote reference number 12240068960.
*and bit of facial damage*
I'd call a broken nose, a fractured cheekbone and a fractured eyesocket as more than 'a bit of facial damage'.
"I don’t agree – most people are capable of remembering stuff and there’s not much that is very specific in the descriptions."
Eyewitness account is notoriously unreliable.
“I think it’s a case of the old chap remonstrated their riding, possibly he felt they got too close to him or were too fast and that went from conversation to argument.”
ITV interview describes the confrontation and assault happening at a stile / bridge
Poly “ I can only assume you are sort of person who if sitting on a jury hearing how a young woman was raped say, yeah but what was she doing out at night dressed like that; or that a man has hit his wife says, yeah but she could be a nagging cow.”
You can **** right off. That’s mis-characterisation has proper annoyed me.
"in the heat of the moment these things do happen, it appears to at least be a big part of human nature."
Aaaaaabsolute bollocks. You are tacitly excusing assault. Neither me, nor any of my mates, have ever got anywhere near to assaulting someone 'in the heat of the moment'. If they or I had, I'd suggest a lot of introspection would be required for that person to sort their f*****g shit out.
@poly you are usually an excellent voice of reason and useful information on here, but that is a massive cognitive leap, and bang out IMHO
You can **** right off. That’s mis-characterisation has proper annoyed me.
Yep, that's just wilfully nasty.
The end result is old chap has a bit of psychological damage, and bit of facial damage, and when the cops catch up with the riders, they’re probably going to end up with a fine, which may impact on their job/life etc.
I am really struggling to understand the attitude of some on here. Further up the thread and the disinterested reader may well conclude that a lot of posters are heading towards victim-blaming. We've managed to blame access restrictions already, and suggested that there are plenty of times that people have mouthed off at MTBers over where and how to ride, and there's a suggestion that a violent response is to be sort of expected.
No it isn't, absolutely not. This guy has suffered a serious, inexcusable and grievous assault. Whatever the circumstances, can anyone here in any way shape or form excuse or justify punching a 68 year old man enough to leave him with facial fractures, just because he remonstrated with some folk who were riding on what he believed to be a footpath (only) ?
It's far more than a "bit of psychological damage", it's an absolute affront to any form of human or moral decency. This guy thought he'd moved to his rural idyll, and some entitled thug has taken offence at being told not to do something he probably shouldn't have been doing, pinned an old man to the ground and beaten him seriously enough to leave lasting damage. Minimising facial fractures to a 68 yr old as a "bit of facial damage" is in itself inexcusable.
Can this be stopped before winning the title of being the most thoroughly depressed thread in a long time.
It's bringing out the absolute worst in some people. It may only be 'safe behind keyboard' statements, but is it really how you want to be thought of?
I can only assume you are sort of person who if sitting on a jury hearing how a young woman was raped say, yeah but what was she doing out at night dressed like that; or that a man has hit his wife says, yeah but she could be a nagging cow.
Dude, WHAT?
In a thread already rife with unsupported assumptions, this takes the top step of the podium.
There are three sides to every story, so far there has been a part of one and a lot of conjecture.
Maybe it should be left to the courts to work out what actually happened.
Here's that interview for anyone interested.
Much as I loathe it when people have said it on other threads, but could this thread perhaps be deleted?
It's only a matter of time before someone links to it as proof of how loathsome [ some elements of] the cycle community are and we have to reap the consequences
But is not it an honest and fair representation of attitudes?
It seems to me that most on this thread firmly reject the suggestion that decking someone whilst out riding the trails could ever be justified (assuming that it wasn't self defence).
A few on the other hand would prefer to have a bit more information.
And the disagreement between the two opposing opinions has resulted in an increasingly heated exchange.
Who is surprised?
Did it say that the assault happened on 20th April? 13 days ago, he had broken bones in his face and ribs but in that interview not even a bruise on his face, and he's moving both arms well without wincing. I hope I heal as well as that when I'm 68. They're made of tough stuff up north.
In a (better) parallel universe somewhere, the three thugs on bikes were riding through Leeds today rather than Cropton Forest a couple of weeks ago....
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/protestors-against-cycling-in-leeds-today/
s but in that interview not even a bruise on his face,
pause the itv video at 1 m 35s. You’ll see bruising below his left eye.
enderextender
Free Member
In a (better) parallel universe somewhere, the three thugs on bikes were riding through Leeds today rather than Cropton Forest a couple of weeks ago….
Blimey, just followed the link, they had better hope there isn't any CTV there.
^^^
Me neither. I've had less than a handful of red-faced frothers berate me in nearly 20 years of riding. All ignored bar one who called me a very rude word. It was so out of proportion that all I could do was burst out laughing. This did not please him. I carried on with my day.
🤷♂️
It’s far more than a “bit of psychological damage
Oh sorry, i didnt realize we needed to put in a sliding scale of physiological damage, it was just a statement of fact, rather than that of opinion.
But while we're here maybe you could tell me on this sliding scale what you should think it should be. As bad as rape, or being in a house fire and losing family, or during a fight where we dont fully know the belligerence of both parties, getting punched in the face.
So was he just walking there, or did they catch him stringing a bit of barbed wire across the track, or littering the trail with obstacles like old trees or rocks. Because we do know that goes on, and it sure as heck isnt other cyclists doing it.
But thats pure speculation, because we dont know.
This guy thought he’d moved to his rural idyll, and some entitled thug has taken offence at being told not to do something he probably shouldn’t have been doing, pinned an old man to the ground
Sorry, hadn't read any of that anywhere. So is that what happened then 😕 They only had the story in the Yorkshire post, without any of the facts you're saying happened.
.
Anyway, my point was just a statement of fact, without prejudice, so please dont go off blaming me and implying im all for his assault or minimizing it.
Didn't King Charlie give some mountain bikers a beating up in his estate recently or did I watch some YouTube video just before bed?
Pretty sure it was a nice chat - the one in Scotland certainly was. 🤷♂️
fenderextender
Free Member
^^^Me neither. I’ve had less than a handful of red-faced frothers berate me in nearly 20 years of riding. All ignored bar one who called me a very rude word. It was so out of proportion that all I could do was burst out laughing. This did not please him. I carried on with my day.
Only been one occasion I thought I was going to get battered and that was in one of my SDW attempts a few years back. On one of the few road sections a going guy got out of his car, shouted at me that "I think I own the F*****road!" I was basically getting ready to get smacked as we walked towards me ranting. I haven't punched anyone since school and he totally deserved it. I don't do fighting.
Then the Universes Dildo Boomerang of Doom intervened!
I think he was plastered and he hadn't put his hand brake on... His car rolled back, off the road, across the path and into some bushes! He had to jump in the door whilst it was moving and cut himself up!
It was extraordinary. I went and asked if he was ok and then I carried on... With my failed STW attempt.
I love the STW, happy memories.😁
So was he just walking there, or did they catch him stringing a bit of barbed wire across the track, or littering the trail with obstacles like old trees or rocks.
Well perhaps the 3 riders would like to pop into a police station and put their side of events.
I think we’ve all been there at some point.
Nope.
I am really struggling to understand the attitude of some on here.
Not just me then.
Didn’t King Charlie give some mountain bikers a beating up in his estate recently or did I watch some YouTube video just before bed?
Was a pleasant chat.
👍
I’ve had walkers get pissy with me when I used to ride the towpath along the Kennet & Avon Canal, the one that was restored long before the canal was, by a Bristol outfit called Cyclebag, now Sustrans.
I’ve had a bloke get mouthy after I asked if I could get past him and his family, who were filling the width of the path, actually telling me I was riding too fast! How he knew that is difficult to say, ‘cos I’d been sitting behind them at the same speed for about fifty metres, before I spoke.
I was a Sustrans Ranger at the time, so I knew the protocols about how to use the path. I had others get shitty because I rang my bell, or it was too loud and I was being rude and insulting by announcing my presence, or called out “excuse me”, and I was wrong for not using my bell. 🤷🏼
People who want to be assholes will be, and they’ll find any pretext to kick off, and find any excuse to justify it. Riding footpaths in the countryside is a trespass, and a landowner is perfectly within their rights to ask someone on a bike to get off and push it. There are routes that are permissive, but that just means they can be closed at any time by the landowner.
It’s their land.
I’ve ridden footpaths for years, and never had any issues, but if I’d been approached and asked not to ride a particular route, then I’d have been respectful and done as asked.
That was from around 1988, when I bought my first bike, and nobody payed me any attention, other than one American tourist who asked “hey, is that a mountain bike?”; it was the first he’d ever seen!
I have been hit before - a little old woman with a big stick whacked me on the arm as I passed her on 3 metre wide gravel path. Left a cut and a bruise which took a few weeks to totally heal.
It was a path where cycling was allowed but I was riding like a dick - going downhill too fast and not able to completely come to a stop (brakeless fixed gear off road) so I accepted it was my fault and sort of got what I deserved but may not have felt the same if the stick hit me right in the face but then she wouldn't have felt the same if I had collided with her which she no doubt felt I may do.
Bloody cyclists.
Well this has somehow got worse since page two. Nobody knows what happened FFS. An old man was severely beaten. How is that excusable at all. Unless the old guy pulled a knife or was attacking someone there is no excuse for what happened to him. Even then the severity of his injuries is extreme.
Shit behaviour by a coward is what it is. If the police don’t find him you can rest assured he’ll cross the wrong person one day. There are two many angry people these days. I’ve encountered a few and normally laugh and walk away. Regrettably I’ve had to deal with violence a few times in my life and I’m quite capable of switching off and going a bit feral. Strangely makes it easier to stay calm and walk away now I’m older. Knowing what I could do but am mature and reasonable enough not to.
Some of you need to step away from your keyboards after taking another look at that old man’s face.
