[Closed] Creationism.............

Can of worms. Believing requires nothing more than that you believe. What you believe is determined by where and when you're born, and largely, what you're told.

One of the best quotes, but don't know whos:

[i]When you explain to me why you dismiss all other gods, I'll explain why I dismiss yours[/i]

All your doubts are answered here -
[url] http://www.icr.org/ [/url]

I am still good mates with a couple of rather serious Christians who also did Geology at university (where I met them). They had no trouble at all reconciling geology and particularly palaentology with their faith.

I once had the delightful experience of lunch with them plus a creationist type who'd done a talk to the university's Christian Union about how it was actually the Devil Himself (!) coming down to rearrange animal bones and hide them where scientists would find them, so as to 'make 2 plus 2 into 5' and make people doubt the Book of Genesis. That was an entertaining discussion to choke on my sprouts over. 😀

We've got a friend who is a vicar who used to be a genetic scientist. Amazingly bright chap and if there's anything that will explain away creationism it's an understanding of genetics and evolution but there you go.

Remember folks, blind faith in an unproven creator is a virtue and will help one avoid an eternity in hell-fire and brimstone.

Who are we to question the [i]current[/i], and decidedly man-made, beliefs of powerful, domineering religions such as the Catholic church or slightly wishy-washy ones like the C of E?

For every piece of evidence, somebody has thought up an alternative, implausible explanation. How can you doubt this?

I'm sickened.

Next thing you'll be saying that the monarch is not in place due to divine intervention....

there's people who will blow them self up ( and others) in the name of god so why some other idiots who think the earth was made in 7 day by a god doesn't surprise me at all. Evidence is nothing faith is every thing!!!!

shoot them.

lookma- religious philosophy was my subject, now ill have a weapon to slow you down on our next ride. you will grind to a halt with boredom.

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on that icr link above... 🙄

The promotion of creationism is a recent thing, imported from America, and its sad how its polarised the debate (actually there shouldn't be a debate, but nevermind)
I have a number of customers who would probably fall into the reasonable, moderate christian category, but one day I was chatting to them, complementing them on several Monkey puzzle trees in their garden. As I explained to them how and why Araucaria's got their wonderful forms and how they were found thoughout the whole southern hemisphere, I use the phrases 'millions of years' and 'evolution' I could see their smiles drop.
( they have since cut the trees down, to their shame)
My aunt is a devout Catholic and despite the fact that offical Vatican doctrine is, to its credit, accepting of Evolution , she has been influenced by evangelical creationists- she regards fossils as 'evil hoaxes, made up by the most sinful of scientists, paleontologists( that would, err ,be directed at me too! )and that Genesis represents the literal truth, again, not something that her own faith teaches.

I know a few Christians, not one is a creationist.

Scripture is never wrong it is 100% right, therefore the world was created in 6 days (not 7 as some people think).

Everything must fit with that, all other gods and points of view are false. Evil spirits, demons or Satan himself are trying to fool you, remember the bible warns of false prophets to mislead and confuse and as it is never wrong what more proof do you need 😉

I suppose I would describe myself as a creationist, in that I don't believe we exist here as afreak of blind chance. However, I am a bit mystified how otherwise normal people can think the world was knocked up in six days about 6,000 years ago.
So, before we have another slagging of all religions, can we be clear who we mean when we talk of deluded creationist. Do we mean "Genesis is bang on" creationist? Or anyone who doesn't accept that the universe threw up humans randomly? (Or would that still be considered a form of creation?)

i love a bit of JC but believing in the bible as literal fact!! any hand book is written to tell you what to do. control is the order. read between the lines and meditate on the teaching will yield something else. im partial to the hindu scriptures as, sanskrit is a language open for personal interpretation, and bases its self on self development. there is also room for evolution in there.

There's one of these threads, what, once a month or so?

In all that time I've never once seen one of the Christians on here say that creation as told in the OT is fact, but there there's always plenty of the anti-Christians telling what the Christians think.

Anyone who uses the bible (or any religious text) as 'proof' that the bible is correct is not only guilty of extreme gullibility (is that a word?) but of a moronic grasp of any form of intellectual rigor.

If you wish to believe that a particular deity created the world and all in it then that's your affair. If however you subscribe to the dogma of a C19th reactionary anti-Darwinist movement then you are an idiot.
Evolutionary science is not perfect, but the evidence has been stacking up for some time now and the holes in the theory getting ever smaller.
Sticking your head into a collection of bronze-age creation myths and rejecting scientific discourse is self-defeating IMO.

Why can't these fundamentalists accept that evolution is god's way of getting things done? (if you believe in that god of course)

Everyone believes in some things that are not true. Don't worry about it.

avdave2 - Member
Everyone believes in some things that are not true. Don't worry about it.

You mean that I'm not the riding god that I think I am?

avdave2 a man who speaks the truth. unless i apply his statement to his post. in which case i have nothing to worry about. win/win 🙂

I believe in BigMac Earth-we are awaiting for the aliens who created us to come back for Drive thru...

All Religion? LOL good to control fruitcakes and teach a righteous way to live that nobody ever does...

I love science btw but not coursework... 😉

I'm happy for people to have the right to believe whatever they like. Regretably that often is not reciprocated by those who chose make believe.

Personally it has always troubled me that being away with the fairies apparently is a basic qualification for all sorts of positions of power.

spamf, anyone who tells you that evolution is a process based on fluke or blindchance doesn't understand evolution.

there is nothing 'blind' about the life and death process of selection.
don't think 'survival of the fittest' - instead think 'removal of the least fit'...

(the slowest gazelle gets eaten, the skinniest inuit freezes to death. apply these forces over millions of years, and hey presto - speciation).

life, and evolution, will continue long after the human race is extinct.

[i]don't think 'survival of the fittest' - instead think 'removal of the least fit'...[/i]

Not quite, it's more like "promotion of the most adaptable"

Creationism isn't really a tenet of Christianity, well...it is, and it isn't. It was developed as a theory in order to get a form of Christian belief taught in the American public schools system. American schools are supposed to be un-religious, that is, by law they cannot teach, for instance, that Christianity is the "real" or "true" faith, this upsets a lot of right wing fundamentalist Christian in the USA, in order to get past this, Creationism was developed as a "science" in order to get taught alongside Evolution...It didn't really work. Now, that's not to say that some Christians do believe wholeheartedly in it, they do, but most don't really pay it the sort of attention that a lot of secular people would seem to think they do.

I don't think the Anglican Church promotes it...

It doesn't bother me that people believe in creationalism but it bothers me greatly that [b]some[/b] people believe in it [b]and[/b] are trusted with power.

Well... I'm happy to nail my colours to the mast and say that I am a Bible believing Christian. The kind of creationism that I am happy with doesn't come from the USA, doesn't believe in 6 x 24hour periods (seems ridiculous- a day can equally be interpreted as a period) and doesn't have a problem with the evolution (not micro-evolution at least) or the Big Bang. If the Big Bang has everything starting from a singularity - ie nothing, it would seem to line up well with Genesis... 'God Spoke'...everything coming into being through knowledge/power(??).

Gets off soap-box... the thing that really troubles me about some of the recent STW posts are the comments that line up with Richard Dawkins' God Delusion. A lot of people seem to have simply swallowed all this without a critical look. Mr Dawkins philosophical arguments about religion seem to be seriously flawed in most areas and yet he has succeeded in convincing most people that his rationale is overwhelming and that nobody can challenge his views with any degree of intellectual rigour. NOT SO!!!

richard dawkins, another fanatic.

Well, I've never read anything by Dawkins and I think the deity-believers are all nuts.

[url= http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/repackrider/avatar235.jp g" target="_blank">http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/repackrider/avatar235.jp g"/> [/IMG][/url]
[url= http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm ][b]2retro4u[/b][/url]
Marin County, Cali

As an American and a big fan of Darwin, I apologize for the fools who have exported our worst cultural aspects to the Mother Country.

I have read "On the Origin of Species" several times. There are reasons why this is one of the greatest science books ever written, one being that Charles Darwin used logic and observation that we are all capable of to make his case.

Later discoveries showed that Darwin was off the mark in a few places, but in general had shot the centre out of the "ten ring." He made a bold prediction that took 90 years to be proven, but it shows why he laid the cornerstone of modern biology. He said that if his theory was correct, there had to be a [i]physical embodiment[/i] of heredity, an actual substance that passed it along. 90 years later, Crick and Watson identified the chemical DNA which confers heredity.

In order to confront Darwin, creationists must isolate short passages without context, but the argument for his theory is continuous and must be read from first to last in order to be complete.

And why would that be Druidh? Have you spoken to them all to see what they believe and why? Impressed if you have.

Quite entertaining thread. Most people seem happy to accept that not all riders are the same (different styles, different preferences, different bikes etc etc) and that's fine. As soon as something vaguely about religion pops up suddenly all the people who have a faith (whatever it may be) are all nutters. As if all faiths are the same. As if all people who share the same faith are the same or even believe the same. Complicated matters but all nicely wrapped up in paper and a shiny bow, just in time for christmas by druidhs "they're all nuts".

Proper scientific that is. 🙂

I didn't say "all faiths", I said deity-believers.

There's one of these threads, what, once a month or so?

In all that time I've never once seen one of the Christians on here say that creation as told in the OT is fact, but there there's always plenty of the anti-Christians telling what the Christians think.

Thank you for pointing this out, Kenny Senior. These threads do become tedious.

It seems that there are a great number on here that prefer caricatures to genuine images. Alas (irony of ironies), bigotry seems to run more than one way.

Ok. I stand corrected. Doesn't answer the question though and the pool of people is not significantly smaller by limiting it to deity believers. Really. Not in the grand scheme of things. 😕

Creationism - don't get me started.............. 😆

hotfly

A lot of people seem to have simply swallowed all this without a critical look. Mr Dawkins philosophical arguments about religion seem to be seriously flawed in most areas and yet he has succeeded in convincing most people that his rationale is overwhelming and that nobody can challenge his views with any degree of intellectual rigour

That is even more ridiculous than your god beliefs. Just remind us all again what your [s]faith [/s]intellectually rigourous beliefs are 🙄

[img] [/img]

I know a few Christians, not one is a creationist.

shoot them.

How can you be a Christian but pick and choose which bits of the bible, your own holy book, the foundation stone of your religion, to believe in?
...And you wonder why atheists take the mickey? Have a word fella, you're either in or out, its not a serve yourself buffet...

Doesn't Christian mean 'little Christ', that term deriving from the fact that they follow the teachings of Christ, as found in the New Testament Gospels?

I thought the Old Testament was seen by many Christians more as a history of the Jewish nation/race, more often than not highlighting the mistakes they made, so setting out why the new covenant offered through Jesus was necessary.

(Sorry if I've got this wrong, RE lessons were some years ago).

ernie_lynch wrote something not long ago explaining the relationship between the OT and NT very well.

How convenient...

flippin ell. well we are here whether we like it or not. todays actions count for everything. the begining is long gone.

What is this thread about - questioning the credence of those that don't go along with the evolution theory or having a pop at Christianity?

Personally I believe in a God who is almighty and way beyond what we can comprehend. I also believe that as human beings we have a spiritual awareness. For me, riding my favourite trails and taking in the wonder of all of nature I have no problem believing that there is a God who creates.

Dunno if it's convenient or not, don't know if it's correct or not.

But if I'm going to read these threads and ponder the issues, which I end up doing, I'd rather ponder what people really think, not what the narrow minded assume they think.

Given that evolution is pretty much directly at odds with the creation myth, its probably about both. I find it interesting to watch the mental hoops that Christians and other religious types have to jump through when confronted with evolution. It's only a theory, but its a cracker..

Kenny, its strangely convenient that the tricky bits get left out, that the garden fete version of Christianity gets chosen over the appreciably trickier to defend full on bible as word of god version. I don't assume to know what people think, any more than people assume what god thinks..

crikey - maybe the issue isn't the issue 🙂

Fair enough mate, I'm not meaning to have a dig at you.

I just wonder though, is it that tricky bits get left out, or is it that these bits aren't actually tricky?

someone said to me once 'we are living in the creation now, its not finished yet' i think they were getting at that evolution is the divine creating tool.

[url= http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ ][i]or is it that these bits aren't actually tricky[/i][/url]

Slow down bikemonkey, let's get Genesis verse 1 resolved first.

Hmm quite a few issues here.

Starting with thye easier stuff... Crikey - I agree with you... it's not OK to take just the bits of the Bible that you like or fit in with you ideas. I don't believe I do that. It IS (in my view) reasonable to use your loaf in interpreting the Bible. The OT, for example, contains history, law, poetry, prophecy etc. Lots of pictures and images, in keeping with certain literary styles of the times.

Kenny Senior - Christian just means followe of Christ - I think that I am correct in saying that this term was coined before the gospels were written and circulated.

The OT is not at all disregarded by Christians as just background history. The NT is seen as the fulfilment of the hundreds of prohecies in the OT that point to Christ. It all fits together.

Junkyard... don't be in too much of a rush to misinterpret and then dismiss. Your critique needs taking on point by point - too lengthy for this post. I take it that you are of the 'this is all there is...' philosophy - aka atheism.

Cards on table; I'm a dyed in the wool, never had any religion other than at school, atheist type.

But, but but....

I'm fascinated by the way that Christians manage to accomodate what seems to me to be totally opposite themes into their religion.

I am often far to scathing about it, and my real attitude is one of tolerance, but I just can't see how 'you' can deal with, for example evolution when the bible has an alternate theory/myth.

It seems to me to involve some kind of mental gymnastics, and some willingness to ignore the bits that don't fit.

I would enjoy the chance to kick this subject around; I won't change your view, and you won't change mine, but as an intellectual exercise...

the bible in its current form, in my view, is faulty evidence for a fair argument. lost in translation/editing as a power tool. christianity has been too much of a political force in the past. we all know what happens to documents that need adjustment to fulfill aims, step forward tony and george w.

crikey - no offense meant at all, but it's not an intellectual issue because it takes faith to believe in God not intelligence - by that I don't mean that all Christians have low intelligence, far from it, I just mean that you can't argue the point from an intellectual stand point.

[i]crikey - no offense meant at all, but it's not an intellectual issue because it takes faith to believe in God not intelligence - by that I don't mean that all Christians have low intelligence, far from it, I just mean that you can't argue the point from an intellectual stand point. [/i]

I kind of appreciate that, but are there issues or themes that cause you to stop and think?
Is there a point at which your faith and society/science/stuff seems to clash?

I'm sure that there are, but I'm most interested in how you cope with it from an intellectual point of view. I'm sure it's not as simple as saying' nah, not having that'; are there issues that have ...wobbled.. for want of a better phrase, your faith?

I just mean that you can't argue the point from an intellectual stand point.

Convenient that isn't it?
And funnily enough, a statement I only ever hear made by the religious.

The rest of us are quite happy to use reason and intellect all the time, not just when it suits us.

Sadly, fundamental religious belief is becoming more and more prevalent in this country.
The only way to prevent this pernicious nonsense from undermining our hard won freedom of thought is to defend the rights of the ignorant to believe in creationism, whilst destroying their arguments logically and scientifically.

Faith is one thing and organised faith or "religion" quite another. Religion is just like any other organisation managed by humans. Power corrupts and... .

[url=

God, can you link vids on this site?[/url]

Crikey - I'm certainly no expert on evolution, though I am starting to read up about it.

For me it all came about in reverse... having grown up an atheist, I had some God encounters/experiences that turned my life around and things have never been the same since. I now try and work out how all this fits.

Quote from Stephen Jay Gould, America's leading evolutionary biologist (not a believer AFAIK)...

based on the views of evolutionary biologists 'either half my colleagues are enormously stupid, or else the science of Darwinism is fully compatible with conventional religious beliefs - and equally compatible with atheism.'

Two surveys amongst active scientists, one in 1916, the other in 1997 - the figure for the number that believed in God (that is personal and answers prayer) remained a consistent 40%, with 45% (in 1997) believing that there is no God. The big statement from Dawkins is that 'most scientists don't believe in God'. Something of an overstatement!

As I understand it, many (from both sides) seem to agree that science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God.

[i]Sadly, fundamental religious belief is becoming more and more prevalent in this country.[/i]

I would argue that this is not true. Fundamental religious belief is becoming more noticeable and noticed, but not more prevalent; if anything, fundamentalist beliefs are ever more under siege and are ever more disdained by the 'normal' religious folks.

I see more and more 'ninjas'* (ladies in full 'Islamic' style headwear that covers their faces and only shows their eyes) than I did when I was growing up, but I think this is an example of increasing liberalism rather than a sign that I'm going to have to convert soon.

*ninjas as a description came from a mate who hails from ****stan...

I would suggest that it is not the aim of science to prove or disprove the existence of God, and I know the work of Steven Jay Gould and the arguments he has had with others regarding evolution and so on.

The number of scientists believing or not in God would seem to me to be a more accurate representation of the society and schooling that they recieved rather than an implicit correlation between science and religion?

I'm more interested in ...matters of Faith.. I suppose, the kind of questions and evidence that make you stop and think 'Hold on, this doesn't really fit with what I believe to be true, How can I accomodate this into my Faith?'

I'm asking fairly/very personal questions and I appreciate that public mountain bike forums are maybe not the place for this, but I'm interested nontheless..

Scientists can take the view that they are getting to know the work of God through their own work. Quantum physics and evolutionary theory being descriptions of features of the universe God created. Conflicts between science and religion have arisen simply because of poor human interpretation of God's message as it is poorly transcribed by humans in the Bible. The error of creationists is that they decide what God did rather than just using their eyes and observing.

Just a view worth expressing that isn't necessarily my own.

I see more and more 'ninjas'* (ladies in full 'Islamic' style headwear that covers their faces and only shows their eyes) than I did when I was growing up, but I think this is an example of increasing liberalism rather than a sign that I'm going to have to convert soon.

Sadly, I see it as a retrograde step in the battle for sexual equality.
And people are too scared to do anything about it because it 'might offend someone's beliefs'.
Well it bloody well offends mine.
See also fundamentalist Jewish sects who believe that women should be segregated from men (Channel 4 news, Friday night), Catholic Pro-lifers, etc, etc.

Are we really going to fall for this crap all over again?

Scientists can take the view that they are getting to know the work of God through their own work. Quantum physics and evolutionary theory being descriptions of features of the universe God created. Conflicts between science and religion have arisen simply because of poor human interpretation of God's message as it is poorly transcribed by humans in the Bible. The error of creationists is that they decide what God did rather than just using their eyes and observing.

In other words, regardless of evidence to the contrary, people who hold that view will simply manipulate and interpret every logical argument that dismissed the existence of a god as proof that their exists one!
Rather than being some pseudo intellectual attempt at logic it should be seen for what it is, delusion of the highest order.
As Hitchins said. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Agreed, but our society is more and more secular and will become evermore so...

I am aware of the subjugation of women via which ever religion is in vogue, but this is changing, it just takes time. I work with women who, 10 or even 5 years ago, would have been married off sharpish, no question. Now the matter is one of negotiation, of a careful dance between parents and children, and in the next generation will be even less so.

The big vector for this change is education and more specifically the earning power of women in an increasingly equal society; it's tough to be the patriarch when your wife can kick your butt in terms of earnings...

I'm with Hotfly on this, once you have come to believe the difficulty is working out how to fit it all together.

Remember that the "it doesn't make sense to rational thinking people" argument only makes sense based on what you understand. For a huge amount of time the idea of a creation out of nothing would have seemed both impossible and irrational. Now of course it makes complete sense (if you are a quantum physicist of course).

That doesn't mean heads can be stuck in sand with loud cries of lah lah lah not listening. It just means that the spiritual side shouldn't always be binned immediately because it can't be fully and completely tied up with the physical.

I'm more interested in ...matters of Faith.. I suppose, the kind of questions and evidence that make you stop and think 'Hold on, this doesn't really fit with what I believe to be true, How can I accomodate this into my Faith?'

There are contradictions within this statement, however if what you are saying is the you look to "bend the facts" to accommodate them within your faith then don't be surprised if you find what you are looking for.
In my opinion this is hardly an enlightened view.

I'm just asking...
I don't believe in any of it, but I'm intrigued as to how people who do make sense of the way that new discoveries must challenge their beliefs...

Seems like not many want to share, which is fine...

I lived in a house with a group of "God's work scientists", delusion as you say Surfer but they found it both a crutch and inspiration to the point that their work and religion became their life, with no space for anything else and therefore no challenge to their beliefs.

it's tough to be the patriarch when your wife can kick your butt in terms of earnings...

i dont find this crikey my mrs earns about 4times what i do yet its me that the family look to for most things.

Jesus ([i]I understand the irony in using that as an exclamation as an atheist[/i]) I wish my wife earned 4 times what i did, and so would Jimmy Choo...

Serious question about something I hear a lot (and I've seen again on this thread)- how can someone be a Christian but not believe in Creationism? I might be missing some semantics here - but I thought creationism was fundamentally the belief that the "world" was made by (a) god? If you don't believe in that, is that not fundamentally contradictory to the christian religion?

To be honest, I have no understanding of the mindset that allows religious belief - it's entirely alien to me - but on the surface at least, a Christian that doesn't believe in "creation" just comes over to me as someone who's sweeping the "difficult stuff" under the carpet.

Tis easy, the Biblical days of creation are just a metaphorical summary of 15 billion years of God's work.

Seems like not many want to share, which is fine...

I suspect it is a combineation of factors including there njot being all that many and for those that do stick their heads above the parapet a rather visceral blasting by the (irony mode on) holier and more intelligent than thou (irony mode off) atheist brigade. They get an even harder time on here than the Marin owners! 🙂

I think creationism holds that the earth was created [i]exactly[/i] as set out in (English translations???) of Genesis, i.e. in 6 x 24 hours periods. Not all Christians believe that that is, word for word, exactly how it happened. Creationism is not as simple as 'God made the world'.

[i]just comes over to me as someone who's sweeping the "difficult stuff" under the carpet. [/i]

I thought that was part of religion in the first place...?
A mate of mine at school was from a very Christian family - church several times a week (twice on Sunday), no sex before marriage, all that kind of stuff. Anyway to any difficult questions about origins of life, the universe etc he'd come out with the stock answer - "God moves in mysterious ways" or "it is not for us to question the ways of the Lord" or some such crap. Basically (to me) it said "I don't know the answer but rather than admit that I don't know I'm just going to pass it all over to God". The "cop-out" answer.

All that is all very well, and it's easy to take the piss, but I'm genuinely interested in the thought processes involved. Maybe this isn't the right place...

I personally struggle to believe that we are just here by accident, that everything was formed by this big bang thing and that we evolved. The only thing I have ever seen evolve is a tadpole and it seems to be on repeat.

But on the other hand I also find God, creation etc hard to believe.

This sort of discussion will never end because we simply cannot understand everything about life.

Perhaps the question shouldn't be [b]how[/b] we were made (evolved if you want) but [b]why?[/b]

If we evolved we have a good understanding of why as we understand the process of evolution. If god I assume you understand your reason..we both know why we just dont agree.
Evolution has some pretty serious and weighty divergent evidence to support it and you have faith.

@crikey
8) not gonna lie to you it is fairly handy.

If there is a god-can I have the lotto ticket that wins for £90 million next week and I will build you a shrine and worship everyday!

Homer Simpson said: Alla, Jesus and Budha I love you all!