[Closed] Cowboy window installers

The answers to all your questions will be here: https://www.fensa.org.uk/

I’m no expert, but I believe your installer should have been fensa registered and should have provided you with a fensa certificate. Others may be able to advise more directly, but I’d be starting with the fensa website for advice.

I’ll have a look at fensa, good shout. I think they are certass rather than fesna though. No FENSA certificate as yet. But I haven’t paid the bill fully Yet as a few other outstanding bits, like loads of the windows don’t shut unless you pull it to line up the sash. All in all a mess!

Way, way back in the day I used to make upvc doors and windows.
The level of cowboyery in that industry is incredible. No gap is too big for silicone sealant!

We recently had a upvc roof over an old kitchen extension to replace a rotten wooden one fitted by a local window company.

I really didn't have to be too picky to find an absolute mess. Silicone sealant is the fix all for EVERYTHING!

I'm sure there must be some people with actual standards and skill that install windows, but it's pretty hard to find.

When we insisted they sort out the mess of our roof, we wanted different fitters as I was disgusted with their lack of care, but they insisted that the ones who messed it up needed to fix it. Not happy.

Your experience doesn't surprise me at all sadly.

Probably a stupid question but how can you tell there’s no foam with the window in place? Had new windows last year and you’ve made me want to check it

Our installers were great though, did a tidy job and turned up when they said they would. I’ve had terrible luck with tradesmen in general, the lack of decency and at times just outright stupidity is shocking so was very happy I found someone good to do them

The window in the garage only has clear silicone around it and I had a suspicion no foam, so I cut a small bit and had a look. Boss man came and said it’s a garage that’s why they not bother to do foam. Still not convinced. I thought I’d check elsewhere and On another door the bricks aren’t perfectly aligned, so one patch of silicone larger. So I cut that out and had a look - sure enough none there

It's quicker to skip the foam as you have to wait for it to dry, cut it back and then finish with mastic.

Disappointed...I was expecting to read about someone looking to install some Saloon doors that you see in old western films...

Huh. Is that perhaps why my house has close to zero sound insulation from road noise outside?

I’m sure there must be some people with actual standards and skill that install windows, but it’s pretty hard to find.

There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground in windows, it’s bodge it and scarper, or bonkers money.

i used a local joinery firm ~5yrs ago working in accoya that weren’t crazy expensive when we used them, but I’ve had friends get quotes from them recently and their prices have gone up massively. I couldn’t afford it now.

As above. Must be either FENSA certified and then notified to local council, or local council certified under Building Regs
Thermal Efficiency (Part L Building Regs) is the area that you're concerned about and is mandatory, but I can't be more specific on foam, fixings, etc. Windows could also comply with several other parts of building regs which may be optional depending on the property, e.g. toughened glass, fire escape, trickle vents, etc

When I built the workshop and did the insulation the building inspector remarked that he's never seen it taped properly before (as you are supposed it). Normally random sized bits get inserted in random holes and the whole lot gets signed off regardless. Mine was fitted mm perfect, fully taped and basically forming a hermetic seal. He was most surprised....

The fixing screws only hold the window in position tbh Thay are a mechanical fixing but it's a 10mm bolt if your lucky in each corner then in the centre of those it's the foam once cured that holds the window in.
the edges of the frames are rebated for want of a better word once the foam has gone off in those rebates they should be fine.
One reason for so few screws is it's easier to keep the window square in the un-square brick hole.
It's one of the last cowboy saturated industrys sadly it's also one of the trades where getting right is within reach.

Ex window fitter.

I watched a team of these chaps at work last summer. I was amazed at how they installed the first floor windows. They basically leaned two sets of ladders up and then strung a platform between the two. I’ve never seen anything like it, surprised it’s even legal in today’s elfin safety gorn mad climate. There must’ve been at least four guys up there working on this shonky platform. Remarkable.

The silicone is only there to stop water reaching the foam - the foam provides the structural fixing, insulation and air tightness - fixings are just used to hold them in place whilst the foam cures.

On the subject of dodgy window installs, my upstairs sealed glazing units are 2m square and weigh a couple of hundred kg each. One needed replacing as the first one had a fault. The builders decided to just lift it into place on a wobbly scaffolding tower.

Screws quite important for my windows at the moment- they have no foam!

Does seem to be an industry riddled with cowboys. From presale right through to install. Took us ages to find decent installers and that was just a flag, door and bathroom window.

Have you tried safe style windows.

I suppose my question is what do I need to do to get it fixed. I assume even though the company has acted negligently (part L of building regs), do I still need to give them a chance to fix it.

Aside from the disruption to every room and associated clean up hassle I’m concern that as they glued the trims on and then daubed silicone down the brick work/trim join it’s not going to be easy to take the trims off neatly.

Boss man came and said it’s a garage that’s why they not bother to do foam.

Genius. for the 30 seconds it would take of work and almost zero cost it would take they decided to ensure that if you ever did convert your garage to accomodation you'd have a massive thermal leak.

Only last night I was head in hands as my wife was saying that we should just get someone to install UPVC windows in our 350yr old house where there are no straight openings and our windows are probably semi-structural. (I'm proposing to have a stone mason come and build all new surrounds including halving some of the biggest openings to have 2 windows rather than one mahooosive one, then wooden windows into those). She would just bankg in any old UPVC window and hope it works.... Wondering why were having to replace the ones that are probably only 10-15yo already.

Building regulations is a question of compliance, and sadly in my experience is no guarantee of quality of workmanship, especially when it comes to windows. If the window unit itself complies with current regs - glass type if its a door etc, it doesn't seem to matter it they stick it in sideways, or as is very often the case, leave a large gap all the way round, stick a trim over it and a bit of cheap silicone splodged down the brickwork. I have in recent weeks stripped out my own leaking, draughty windows to find exactly what you describe.
What can you do about it? Maybe go back to the installer and ask if they will strip the trims, foam the windows in, then re-trim.
DIY. I used to install my own windows before it was bought under building regs, and FENSA. They never leaked, and were not draughty. You can still do this. Speak to your local building control, and do it under a building notice, which you apply and pay for online. Our building control officer was really helpful, and explained exactly what he needed to see (very little). Worst case, or for retrofit, get hold of the correct trim, blade off the existing, foam in the window, then re-trim and seal. This is if access is not a problem.
For anyone looking at DIY install, take a look at Illbruk i3 system. This is what I have done, as we were chopping out the reveals internally anyway. Its quite expensive, but done properly, In my opinion it is much nicer.

Hope the above is of some help.

Have you tried safe style windows.

hah - I came here to say the same.

I reckon these guys would give safe style a run for their money in the a.hole stakes!

Complaints process - FENSA
I assume that CERTASS will have a similar scheme but it isn't as obvious on their website, so I'd follow the FENSA progression and just substitute CERTASS.
I'd look the other Building Regs up and make sure that they've been complied with as well, e.g. toughened glass, fire escape, trickle vents, etc.
Here's a quick guide but there are others that aren't mentioned such as secured by design (Part Q) that you may have opted for and not received

Screwfix sell silicone remover if you need it. Wear goggles if you go down that road as its very harmful to the eyes.
Stanley blade cut should help lift the trims.
You might be better off doing it yourself, at least you know it will be done properly. You can take your time, use the correct foam, probably a Soudal low expanding jobbie. Mahbe invest in a gun and cleaner.
Saves the headache of getting the idiots back in, and you watching over them to ensure they do it correctly. Then if you suspect they are rushing or cutting corners are you going to really remonstrate that its wrong. - they are the professionals and it will get sweary very quickly.

Just dont pay the last £200 and kee6 receipts for materials.

Yes, yes i know you shouldn't have to, you paid, contract etc but really. If it was a bricky who built a wonky wall would you want him back to do it wrong again. I wouldn't.

Well it did get sweary but they did take the trims off.

Putting foam in proved tricky for them though. How are you meant to get it in to a small gap other than a thin strip basically on the surface which can only mildly better than useless?

You use a long thin nozzle on rthe foam it should completely fill all gaps a d voids

You use a proper metal nozzle, not one of the disposable plastic ones.

They had a metal nozzle but too big to fully insert into all gaps. In most cases was just a cm of foam in the outside of the gap. Seems as if you need to tape the gap and then poke a hole in the tape and fill through that. In hindsight I should have got them to do that maybe.

Should have taped the frames the plastic straw is ok as you can push it into gaps. Don't forget it expands in all dimensions I used to get the straw is as far a possible then jiz it in it's better to do a little at a time.
Horrible stuff it's gets everything you don't want covering if your not carful