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As reported from the Beeb and unfortunately not a surprise I suppose.
3 bankrupt councils are also allows to increase beyond the 5% cap without a vote I believe, Croydon, Thurrock and Slough.
Ouch.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64627967
Depressingly predictable, unfortunately.
At best, any council aplying a 5% increase will do nothing more than marginally slow the rate of decline in service provision.
People want payrises.
Cost of everything has rocketed - particularly things like energy that councils use lots of.
We all want roads fixed, old folks cared for, social services to be better, swimming pools up operate, planning to be controlled etc etc etc.
5% seems a bit of a bargain.
Council's aren't immune to inflation or the increase in national living wage.
If you are bothered about the quality (and breadth) of services that local councils are responsible for, surely you'd welcome this, and maybe disappointed it's not more. Not the paying for it obviously - but as already said this is still going to represent and reduction in what's possible - just a slower decline than if the rate had been less. But even with another 5% to play with there must be some serious head scratching to make the numbers work and some tricky conversations about what was considered essential previously now being cut.
Councils generally describe the delivery of public realm services - highways, footpaths, bridges, parks/open spaces inc play areas, street cleansing, street lighting etc - as '...managing deteriorating assets'.
They don't have the money to do what needs to be done and are being forced towards spending their reserves which were never intended to support delivery of routine services.
How will they replenish their reserves?
Don't be misled by central gov claims about multi billions in additional funding as its any/all of
...re-badging of previous funding commitments, ring-fenced for tightly defined projects, time limited, dependant on matched funding and otherwise constrained.
These 'additional funds' categorically do not support the provision of routine services
People want payrises.
Cost of everything has rocketed – particularly things like energy that councils use lots of.
We all want roads fixed, old folks cared for, social services to be better, swimming pools up operate, planning to be controlled etc etc etc.5% seems a bit of a bargain.
You forgot "government slashes central funding, so it can blame councils for it's own failures"
If you are bothered about the quality (and breadth) of services that local councils are responsible for, surely you’d welcome this
Only if you agree that the money is being spent wisely. Increasing the spend doesnt automatically translate to improved services.
Most council funding is spent on various forms of social care, the government keeps adding more responsibility onto council's without providing the funding or infrastructure and the underlying demand keeps growing due to lifestyle issues and the inability of some people to keep it in their pants.
Meanwhile asset management, roads and infrastructure get a nominal amount that's left. Unless we as a country properly address the growing burden of social care (either reduce entitlement significantly although that would have serious knock on effects to society, be a lot more interventionist in people's lives to reduce the increasing trend of reliance or we pony up and find more cash).
None of those are in the agenda so the gap between what can be afforded and what government tells us we are entitled to grows ever bigger whilst the basic services we expect from council's that benefit everyone wither and die.
5% isn't that much considering inflation.
MrsMC is an adoption social worker for a council.
According to her last night, the council is apparently running short of suitable adopters.
Private adoption agencies have suitable adopters but charge the councils £30k a time (close to the salary of a social worker)
In the meantime, the council will have to continue to pay for these poor kids to be in temporary foster care.
Another group of poor kids ****ed over by Tory cuts.
There are also a lot of private sector businesses who provide goods/services to councils who will be asking for much more than a 5% increase.
As mentioned above, social care is what most of your council tax will be spent on and the ageing population is only going to worsen the situation.
When was the last time they didn't increase Council Tax by the maximum allowed? It's the default increase amount.
I do wonder wether the whole structure needs radical reform though. In the town where I work we have Derbyshire County Council offices, Derbyshire Dales District Council Offices and Matlock Town Council offices - all on the same stretch of road.
Why is there such layering of services? Some consolidation could be achieved surely.
Only if you agree that the money is being spent wisely. Increasing the spend doesnt automatically translate to improved services.
The prole's cry going back through the ages and I suspect for millennia to come. Yes, there will be some misspending and poor choices and yes their priorities might not align with our own particular, nuanced and often selfish interpretation of priorities. But, as is often said - if you feel strongly about it go for election - become a small cog in making change. But I suspect you (and I) will just continue to moan from the outside from the comfort of an armchair/keyboard.
Most(if not all) local authorities are horribly in debt,at the same time they are being asked to deliver more efficient services while saving money,it's effin grim.
Thumbscrews on the poor and vulnerable.
if you feel strongly about it go for election
What an idiotic response.
Given that councils are exposed to the same inflationary pressures as us all (and probably more so due to high energy demands for streetlighting, schools, etc.) they are effectively facing a ~10% budget cut even if they apply a 5% uplift.
Most councils are down to delivering only the bare statutory services, they are delivering these through minimal staff and there's nothing really left, and now they're taking one of the largest effective funding cuts they've faced in a single year. I expect more Councils to exceed their budgets next year.
What an idiotic response.
From someone with your world view, I'm taking that as a compliment 😉
From someone with your world view
You dont know my "world view"
As a Croydon resident I'm obviously not pleased by the mess the council have made and the 15, yes 15% rise announced. But the alternative would basically be emptying your own bins. They've already let any parks fall apart, closed the libraries and children's centres. It frustrates me that there is a petition being circulated to complain against the rise. It also frustrates me that central government don't help by sending in a suitably skilled team to construct and deliver a plan to repair the council finances over a few years. Unfortunately I can't see Croydon council attracting and retaining the staff to do it, nor can I see residents voting for the right elected officials even if they stood!
5% elsewhere, yes it'll smart to open the bill but the magic money tree didn't fruit this year.
Tbh the piss-poor part of this is the reporting from, for example, the Beeb, as if a 5% increase is outrageous in the face of inflation at 10% year on year, and as if council tax should still be 5 shillings a month because inflation isn't a real thing...
If it's any consolation private companies waste quite a bit of money as well. And your definition of well spent might well not align with everyone else's. The council should try to keep everyone equally happy/unhappy
Government failure to tax wealth properly and then pass that onto local areas is to blame. Councils have little choice to maintain minimum services.
What an idiotic response.
seems like a very reasonable response to me.
If you dont like how its being done then get involved.
If only all my costs were going up by just 5%. I thought many years ago government capped rises at 5% then they themselves started squeezing councils on public expenditure.
I hate this bloody lot, they only ever bang on about the economy and nowt else, not that they are interested in taking a look around the state of this country but if they did they might notice it’s become a land fill site with some houses on it these last dozen years.
Only if you agree that the money is being spent wisely. Increasing the spend doesnt automatically translate to improved services.
But to spend money wisely in any business you need to employ and attract high qulaity people. These people cost - not just in salary terms, but also in terms of a decent office to work in, decent IT to work with, and also somewhere that isnt continually being run down as wasteful, lazy, 'the blob' by government and others.
the alternative would basically be emptying your own bins.
Actually I wouldnt mind the continental approach where there are large communal bins on various corners and that is where the waste is collected from - probably a lot cheaper than individual collections and millions of wheelie bins. Need to be something in place for the elderly, disabled etc obviously.
I do wonder wether the whole structure needs radical reform though. In the town where I work we have Derbyshire County Council offices, Derbyshire Dales District Council Offices and Matlock Town Council offices – all on the same stretch of road.
Again I agree - and that is what the Mayoral system is supposed to bring. The issue that government have is that mayors are powerful individuals, who have their owb views which get aired in the media. Most governments dont like this sharing of power!
But to spend money wisely in any business you need to employ and attract high qulaity people. These people cost – not just in salary terms, but also in terms of a decent office to work in, decent IT to work with, and also somewhere that isnt continually being run down as wasteful, lazy, ‘the blob’ by government and others.
Totally agree and thats why we have to hold our elected officials to account to make sure these things are done and that other things are not, thats politics. I dont believe the only way you can do this it to become a councillor or an MP, by saying that you are saying there is no other way to bring about change. I am from Liverpool (now live on the Wirral) and Liverpool city council have been heavily criticised for corruption and have brought in external auditors due to their inability to submit acounts, this needs to be scrutinised. I agree almost totally with the increase (and more) and with the areas where that money should be spent, social care
particularly.
If you dont like how its being done then get involved.
Define involved
5% for me is £3.35/month (band A with single occupancy)
5% sounds like a lot.
£3.35 doesn't
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
I'm not a big earner but live well within my means. So from my (apathetic) position I take joy in watching the country burn to ashes so I can gloat over those that wanted national suicide. I want people to suffer. I want people to regret. I want people to learn that next time they are given a choice, to learn what the effects of either direction will lead to instead of doing what the oligarch has told them to do.
Yes I am bitter.
So effectively a funding cut for councils which will be passed on with a reduction in services provided.
Don’t be misled by central gov claims about multi billions in additional funding as its any/all of
…re-badging of previous funding commitments, ring-fenced for tightly defined projects, time limited, dependant on matched funding and otherwise constrained.
These ‘additional funds’ categorically do not support the provision of routine services
That's very much true but there's anther problem with that approach as well - councils are spending inordinate amounts of time, effort and resource writing bids for all this cash. There are somewhere in the region of 450 funding pots knocking around at any one time, announcements made that Our Glorious Government has found £500 million for libraries or roads or bus shelters or whatever it may be. It neglects to mention that the hundreds of councils in the UK then have to write bids for it, detailing (almost to the last penny) how it will be spent, Government assess this against whatever random criteria they dream up and someone in Whitehall says "ah yes, this council submitted a bid for £250,000 but they can only have £176,874.09 because they forgot to tick a box somewhere".
So the council receives this wildly random sum of money and either has to make it up to £250,000 itself or scale back the works to fit the fund and a desperate push to spend the cash before it gets snatched back. So the designers come up with half-arsed (but quick) solutions to half-fix the problems, contractors get pushed to the limit on the project to deliver on time so they cut corners and you end up with total shite.
But Government claim they're supplying more funding than ever.
What's worse is that some councils are now employing consultants to write these bids for them in order to get it right and get the maximum amount of money but the consultants themselves are costing hundreds of thousands a year.
"Good" councils (the ones that have a reasonable record on delivery) get more funding, "bad" councils (the ones that have a poor track record for whatever reason) get less so the bad councils continue to slide further down the ladder, services and funding get further cut... It's the exact opposite of Levelling Up.
"I’m not a big earner but live well within my means. So from my (apathetic) position I take joy in watching the country burn to ashes so I can gloat over those that wanted national suicide. I want people to suffer. I want people to regret. I want people to learn that next time they are given a choice, to learn what the effects of either direction will lead to instead of doing what the oligarch has told them to do."
Pretty much the whole of Europe (exc. switzerland) are facing the same issues - in many cases CPI inflation at country level is more than double UK inflation. It has little / nothing to do with oligarchs, "national suicide" or the other causes you suggest.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/225698/monthly-inflation-rate-in-eu-countries/
It also frustrates me that central government don’t help by sending in a suitably skilled team to construct and deliver a plan to repair the council finances over a few years.
Thats because they have no idea how you could do it. This is straight forward buck passing. If you did ask central government to come up with an answer they would ask one of the big 4 consultancies to do it. They would produce a very pretty slide deck full of suggestions as to how the gap could be closed with little consideration, if any, on if any of their suggestions are deliverable and charge a fat fee. Notice how none of these consultancies ever sign up to a gainshare agreement for the savings actually delivered.
Just to add to the councils costs as well.
All of these funding pots are quite "fly by night". They appear, get announced, then disappear a year later, there's no continual stream of funding. That makes it very difficult to plan (eg) a steady maintenance stream on roads or a steady programe of improvement works that can be planned and scheduled a year in advance.
So contractors are constantly being asked "quick come up with some costings for xxx" which in turn puts their prices up because they are buying materials and arranging staff/equipment at short notice.
xxx gets costed, the bid gets written, a reduced sum is supplied and the project has to be re-scoped and the contractor has to re-cost it. Which puts prices up again.
It's catastrophically inefficient. Mostly because Whitehall won't let go of any control. There are people sitting there literally signing off the final position of a bench in a park because they don't trust the council to just get on with it.
Pretty much the whole of Europe (exc. switzerland) are facing the same issues – in many cases CPI inflation at country level is more than double UK inflation
inflation is global. the mismanagement of the UK and it's increasing isolationism isn't. you're less able to deal with the shocks due to a decade of bad decisions.
According to her last night, the council is apparently running short of suitable adopters.
Private adoption agencies have suitable adopters but charge the councils £30k a time (close to the salary of a social worker)
In the meantime, the council will have to continue to pay for these poor kids to be in temporary foster care.
And we (as foster carers) get next to nothing (the amount we get only just about covers the cost of having another person to feed, clothe, pay pocket money to, take away on holidays, give treats, presents etc). I sometimes think we are utter mugs when external agencies get so much money.
Notice how none of these consultancies ever sign up to a gainshare agreement for the savings actually delivered
I am aware of a few consultancies who have offered in the past to do gainshare. The problem is that the risk still sits with the public sector when their grand plans mean ambulances aren't sent/emergency calls aren't answered/bins aren't emptied etc. You can't really share the gain when all the risk site with one party.
And yes many of the consultancies are poor - I still remember a consultant from one of the big 5 asking an emergency service if they really needed to have a 24 hour a day call center, as this was very expensive, and many private sector firms manage on less... (to be fair that individual didn't last long, but was still being charged out at a vast daily rate...)
15-20% is about where it should be. Otherwise, you just end up with the Mafia doing bins, Big oil teaching kids and drug companies doing healthcare.
More devolved power is what we need, not less.
seems like a very reasonable response to me.
If you dont like how its being done then get involved.
It doesn't seem like a "very reasonable response" to me.
I take "go for election" as meaning stand for election if you aren't happy, and of course presumably win otherwise there is no point.
There is no logic in assuming that if you aren't happy with a service you shouldn't complain but get involved instead.
Not happy with waiting 2 weeks to see your doctor? Become a GP. Not happy with your internet provider? Start up your own company. And so on.
People who offer services should of course be prepared to face criticism if they fall short.
And since the issue here is political would be it be right to assume that no one should complain about the government if they haven't managed to secure an elected position themselves?
People are perfectly entitled to complain about the failures of elected bodies without needing to stand for election themselves.
Council Tax is bloody outrageous. Especially for the single chap. Should be able to opt out. I’d happily burn my waste in the yard. And I have no wish to be arrested either so no need for the police. Happily pay the firemen though (in case my yard fire gets out of control).
Perhaps a sliding scale on how many sprogs you own:
0 - £50 per year token payment. (For the fire chaps)
1 - Full Council Tax
2 - 200%
3 - 300%
etc etc
Council Tax is bloody outrageous. Especially for the single chap.
Maggie understood that. Gawd bless'er and may she rest in peace.
andrewh Free Member
5% for me is £3.35/month (band A with single occupancy)
5% sounds like a lot.
£3.35 doesn’t
In context its less than the cost of full membership on STW
Westminster has the lowest council tax in UK, read & weep..
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands-and-charges#your-council-tax%E2%80%AFfor-2022-23
Leveling up, my arse.
@the-muffin-man reason for not streamlining, smaller councils don't like it & took bucks cc to court when they merged.
https://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/Public-Sector-News/councils-legal-challenge-against-buckinghamshire-merger-process-rejected
Especially for the single chap.
...but pretty much everything else is better, so swings and roundabouts?😉
One thing I think needed is an extra few tiers of council tax bands.
We have people living in properties near us that are 3-4 times the size and value of our home (and more), but they pay only 2x the council tax.
I don't have kids but i'm happy for my council tax to be spent on education. It's either that or have them lined up on the street begging for change, like in India. Pretty sure we've got a better setup, thanks.
Mrs Pisco reading from a council pamphlet:
"How much are we paying in council tax?"
"£200 per month"
"Well it's going up to £270"
One panicky fact-check later and it turns out it's an extra £70 per year. A Social Care levy apparently
Actually I wouldnt mind the continental approach where there are large communal bins on various corners and that is where the waste is collected from
That's the Edinburgh approach. It kinda works but the problem is no one gives a shit about dumping stuff next to them because it's full and you get companies being dicks and using them too... lol. So it can get proper rank. An unexpected bonus though is you do occasionally see a crushed eurobin where the bin men got it wrong.
Maybe Maggie was right...we should have stuck to Poll Tax...didn't make sense in the 90s especially when I was on YTS £40 a week
If you are bothered about the quality (and breadth) of services that local councils are responsible for, surely you’d welcome this, and maybe disappointed it’s not more
This would be true if council tax was a more progressive tax but a 5% increase is going to really hurt a lot of vulnerable people. Council tax is just a backdoor method of the government taxing the less well off.
Council tax is just a backdoor method of the government taxing the less well off.
+1 dressed up to look like a property tax when it really isn't
In 2019/20 local authority revenue (all councils) was attributable to the following sources:
- council tax 50%
- retained element of business rates 27%
- central gov grants 23%
Revenues from other sources - licensing, permitting, markets, parking fines etc - are valuable but nothing more than a blip.
Councils have financial reserves - but no mechanism to replenish them so, once they start dipping in, that's bad news.
For those querying the fairness of council tax, how would you reform or replace it without reducing council revenues?
Central gov grants are discretionary and are the focus of much lobbying.
The retained proportion of business rates can be varied by central gov.
Any new or modified system must be easy to implement and administer with no/minimal additional cost.
Considering that EE got to put prices up by circa 20%, I think 5% for something useful isn’t too bad.
What is the connection between a mobile network company and a compulsory local tax to fund services many of which should be provided by central government? I can't see any.
If you feel that EE don't provide a useful service then don't use them.
Edit: The petition is in relation to increases above 5% btw.
Councils are forced to hold a referendum if they want to increase council tax by more than 5%.
Unless they have a Tory mayor in which case Michael Gove will allow a 15% rise without a referendum - as is the case with Croydon.
As you (should) know, Croydon was only allowed to impose a 15% increase as they are under a S114 notice - effectively, it's a bankrupt council.
The local government finance act is an informative read - or not, as the case may be.
Only allowed because Michael Gove agreed to it:
‘Sarah Jones, the Labour MP for Croydon Central, has spoken out against the 15per cent Council Tax increase which the Tory Mayor, Jason Perry, is imposing on the borough’s residents from April, calling it “unacceptable” to heap such a massive additional financial burden during the
Conservative cost-of-living crisis.’
As first reported by Inside Croydon earlier this week, Mayor Perry requested government permission to go ahead with the 15per cent Council Tax hike without the need for a local referendum. The Conservative government minister, Michael Gove, announced on Monday that Mayor Perry had got his wish.
Under Perry’s plans, residents living in a typical Band D Croydon home will have an extra £234 added to their annual Council Tax bill from April. On top of that, there will also be an extra £38 for the Mayor of London’s precept, to pay for the Met Police and London Fire Brigade, which combined will make Croydon Council Tax bills among the biggest in the whole of the capital.
Notice how none of these consultancies ever sign up to a gainshare agreement for the savings actually delivered
TBF, some of those cuts would require approval by elected officials (ie the client can't just accept them immediately), some of those programmes last longer than an electoral cycle, and sometimes the client (private or public) just can't stick to its promises.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64821502
"There were 37 votes against the proposed budget, with 34 councillors backing it."
I wonder if Starmer will eventually have a "Kinnock moment" and denounce Labour councillors for not setting a budget, as Kinnock famously denounced Liverpool councillors for not setting a budget in 1985?
The problem though for Starmer is that the majority of Labour councillors in Croydon are right-wingers just like himself. Plus they are hugely responsible for Croydon being bankrupt and in the mess that it is in today.
Poll tax would raise more money and be fairer.
We’ve a couple of HMOs on our street -each with 8-12 working adults per house (some rooms are shared by couples) collectively paying the same as me / my partner.
4% just been announced here. Genuinely surprised it's not a bit higher.
Poll tax would raise more money and be fairer.
We’ve a couple of HMOs on our street -each with 8-12 working adults per house (some rooms are shared by couples) collectively paying the same as me / my partner.
Some would argue that you're more able to pay, so you should pay more.
I reckon the current system isn't terrible. Splits the difference between ability to pay more and consumption of services.
Poll tax would raise more money and be fairer.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if the Tories claimed that a poll tax would be "fairer" and fought the next general election on a pledge to re-introduce it?
I reckon Labour would end up with something like a 400 seat majority.
Sadly despite the Tories's strong penchant to shoot themselves in the foot over the last couple of years even Liz Truss wouldn't dream up something as dumb as that ☹️
Is there a statute of limitations on poll tax non- payment? Asking for a friend.
Some would argue that you’re more able to pay, so you should pay more.
How can you assume CheddarChallenged is more able to pay than the 10 or so working adults in the HMO? They could each have salaries in excess of his. He may be a single earner with his partner.
Council tax is inherently unfair as it’s a tax based on opportunity (if/when you could buy a property or lease one), it’s taken out of already taxed income, and as you say, it doesn’t account for income.
Personally I’m in favour of some form of poll tax, levied according to your income.
But then, that’s basically income tax. So why don’t we just make the whole thing simpler, raise income tax and have everything centrally funded.
increases are Not ideal but understandable given the climate
That said they really have to sort the system out as currently it doesn’t reflect the true value of property, at least round here. My mate and his family live in a house worth significantly more than mine 1 mile away from me. There are four of them, yet they pay less than me even when factoring in my single person discount. Likewise my folks pay less in the same town yet their house is worth 40 % more. I can only assume this is bevcuase my house is a new build?
Bring back thatcher and the poll tax I say..😳😳😂
(That’s a joke btw..)
So why don’t we just make the whole thing simpler, raise income tax and have everything centrally funded.
Because we have been going in the opposite direction for the last 40 years.
The 'rate support grant' used to be hugely important to local authorities, especially in deprived inner-city boroughs.
However in deprived inner-city boroughs voters tend to overwhelmingly vote Labour, so Thatcher dealt with that by first slashing central government rate support grants and then further penalising councils by introducing rate-capping on those which she deemed had over spent.
"Margaret Thatcher's Conservative government presided over an 11-year war between central and local government. Her key characteristics, notably her ideological distaste for the left, meant Labour-controlled councils became an inevitable target for her radicalism."
Thatcher might be long dead and buried but the legacy of her idealogy continues to live. Since 2010, initially with the help of the LibDems, the Tories have slashed central government support to local authorities by 16%, at a time when the burden on local authorities has increased due to ever falling support for social services by central government.
So whatever the merits of your suggestion Ben it would need a very radical government to change the current situation.
Changing tax is a nightmare for any government, you always have winners and very vocal losers who generate lots of bad publicity.
Hence, we just end up with endless tinkering and over 20,000 pages of tax legislation.
sounds alot, but its only £8.40 a month for me..
sickening that i pay double the council tax to a crappy west yorkshire council than those multi millionaires living in westminster pay
@dickboy as my friend points out, westminster council is that rich from property landlord and rental income it doesnt need council tax from its residents..
Changing tax is a nightmare for any government
The Tories scrapped the poll tax pretty bleedin quickly after giving Thatcher the sack. Within a few months they had replaced her "flagship policy" with a completely new local taxation system.
It is amazing how quickly a government can act when there is a general election around the corner and they fear the wrath of the electorate.
Moving quickly certainly saved John Major's premiership in 1992.
How can you assume CheddarChallenged is more able to pay than the 10 or so working adults in the HMO? They could each have salaries in excess of his. He may be a single earner with his partner.
It's a fairly reasonable assumption that people able to afford to live alone are better able to pay than those in shared accommodation. Obviously there will be anomalies, but when tax has to fit everyone, working on a generalisation isn't a bad thing.
But then, that’s basically income tax. So why don’t we just make the whole thing simpler, raise income tax and have everything centrally funded.
Misses people who are wealthy but pay no income tax.
Land Value Tax
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Ffadfbd9e-29ca-4d53-b69a-2497cc3ed95d
That said they really have to sort the system out as currently it doesn’t reflect the true value of property,
The last property valuation for council tax purposes was carried out in 1991. No government has been willing to take the pressure that a revaluation would incur, despite several promises to reform local taxation.
@scotsroutes
so how do they work out houses build past that date?
Id assume it takes into account house price inflation? I imagine my mums house would have cost around 100k back then, it’s now worth well north of 4 times that. Yet it’s in a lower tax bracket than my place, which was built and bought in 2020 for a whole lot less than that
Oddly enough it didn’t appear mine will be going up, only band d appears to be rising in fife
Id assume it takes into account house price inflation?
Kind of - compared to values of similar type properties back in 1991.
The Labour government spent a lot of time and effort on a revaluation of bands in the mid-noughties, and then bottled it, as fairness may have upset the wavering voters
I N R A T S but Mattoutandabout has it.