[Closed] Could you give me some perspective on this please?

life's too short.

ouch 😉

Absolutely.
No matter what result you ended up with , they will have forgotten it in a few months. It’s the way of large organisations.

Let it slide. Quicker you forget about it the better your life will be.

give it to me straight

Half arsed is spelled with an "r"

What they said. It's cock-up not conspiracy, move on.

With the greatest respect to your partner TJ don't let her passing be remembered by this.

Move on.

Ok chaps - that seems pretty clear view. thanks.

What they said. It’s cock-up not conspiracy, move on.

That's my view too. Everything is so raw for you now, understandably, and I can see why you want to find something to "fix" to start to make things feel better, but it's going to take a lot of time and reflection rather than charging headfirst into problems.

I'm guessing you already knew that these 'personal' letters are generated by a pc, bit like Facebook wishing you a happy birthday, or whatever. Still must sting a bit.

Sadly, bureaucratic organisations have hundreds of ways to avoid any personal interaction or empathy - hence the non-apology apology. And they'll have hundreds of ways of making any follow-up complaint disappear into the maw.

Just go on a ride instead.

They've put into place a procedure to make sure everyone is thanked for their service and not forgotten. Personal thanks to employee. Maybe they need to sharpen their procedure, but beyond that what outcome were you hoping for? For what it's worth there will be people in the council who miss your partner too but as an organisation things just move on.

fooman - thats the point. Its not a personal thank you - its a box ticking exercise they are claiming was personal

I would like them held accountable for what they have done.

Burt the consensus here is clear so I will follow that. Be interesting to see if I get a proper apology now as well. I have also pointed out she did not retire formally. She never signed the papers . she was terminated whilst of sick.

+1 on this

Kryton57
Full Member
With the greatest respect to your partner TJ don’t let her passing be remembered by this.

Move on.

It's a pretty terrible & thoughtless thing to do & I know you like to approach these circumstances head-on to 'right the wrong'. I applaud that.
But, in this case you have better things to focus your energy on. There's a time & a place, so I would let it go.

It’s incompetence nothing more, but sometimes venting can be cathartic.

Don’t let the anger consume you, but feel free to be angry. You may not feel angry, but if you do it’s not unusual, and a letter like that is a real and material thing to focus that anger on. But then let it go.

And don’t expect anything from them. If you get a real and sensible empathetic apology, great - but don’t expect it or even seek it really.

It's a beurocratic process so fundamentally unsympathetic, however well meaning. Obviously timing etc is very poor and it must hurt like hell. However, no point in getting mad at a 'process' - although I realise that is far easier said than done.

I also supsect this won't be the first time you have such an experience, some random company eg bank will keep writing to your wife etc even after you've explained she's passed away.

am I overreacting? Should I take this further? Oversight committee on the council? complain to my councilor?

You know, I think, that you're lashing out in anger, right? This isn't going to change anything, no one did this on purpose, it's just "The Machine". Bin it, take a breath, move on.

Save you energy and focus for other things. You will need them

Once upon a time I worked for a marketing agency and we drew in data feeds of amongst other things, the deaths register. Sending something like you received was absolutely regarded as the worst thing we could do out of the variety of cock ups we could make.

That said, there's no good outcome for this. The most likely way you could make them change their ways is a freedom of information request on how they prevent this sort of thing, which will make them publish their bad processes to the world, and in doing so cause them to take a bit of a reality check that it isn't really good enough.

I would suggest a letter to your councillor, leader and the head of council. Say that you feel that the council need to rethink how they manage situations like yours as it can cause a lot of of unintended distress to families. Offer to discuss and give positive suggestions to enable the council be the caring employer it aspires to being.

If they ignore you tried, if they take you up it's a better outcome for all.

they have said they will review procedures to stop this happening again. Is that good enough?

Sounds like a positive outcome to me. They've screwed up, they've recognised that there's a problem with their process and have committed to addressing it.

I would like them held accountable for what they have done.

How and to whom? Are you going to report them to the Inappropriate Letters Bureau? What outcome are you seeking? You've already had an (OK, if a bit shit) apology.

It was surely sent with best intentions even if it was ill-advised, it's probably a standard "someone has left the company" missive, might even be automated. Hanlon's Razor applies here I fear.

am I overreacting?

Yes.

I mean, totally understandably so, but yes you are.

The non apology angered me more. It does not say sorry at all

I'll see what they come back with in response to my reply about the non apology but likely I will let it drop

I can see how that hurts but honestly, if that's the worst you've had to deal with then you're doing well. I mean that in the nicest way.

When my mother in law died in similar circumstances there were so many things and people we were angry with, from the hospital to her care team, even getting rid of the leftover morphine and sharps box seemed to be too much to ask. Then there was the financial stuff, my missus thinks she still hasn't got everything back that was owed.

But we've moved on, that was 4 years ago, it's still raw at times (your tale brought it all back) but you have to let some stuff go for the sake of your sanity if nothing else.

FWIW I agree with what you're saying, it's a computer generated "personal" letter that could at least have a better template for the circumstances. But I treat these things the same as the "personal" letters from our CEO, MSP or whoever a PA is writing a template for that day. It's a sad fact of modern life but I'm sure her actual colleagues have sent their own personal wishes to you. Focus on those sent with real feeling and just ignore the corporate nonsense.

The non apology angered me more. It does not say sorry at all

Honestly though, right there with you on that one.

likely I will let it drop

I understand your desire for righteous vengeance, but no good will come of this. You'll just wind up more angry and upset.

Choose your battles, sir.

It's appallingly shite but you'd be better off bickering with me about rugby. We are more likely to agree than those ****s acknowledge what ****s they are. You have said you piece, best to leave it for your own good.

Am I missing something, what are you actually angry about?

When my Dad died, Mum received 'equivalent' letters from his ex-Employers pension fund - Mum wasn't the slightest bothered.

Maybe handy that your OH wasn't a pensioner as you'd also have to deal with HMG asking for some of their State Pension back (paid in advance).

big_n_daft isn't living up to his user name.

If you want to effect change for others in your sad situation, try and make it a  positive contribution, that's got to be better for your mental health than remembering it as a negative thing that was done to you.

The non apology angered me more. It does not say sorry at all

Completely understandable, but this isn't a good use of your time or headspace

For your amusement this is the email I sent

Mr Kerr

I was utterly appalled to receive a so called "personal" thank you for Julie Stuart. She died 4 weeks ago

If it really was personal you would have at least spoken to her line manager who knew this

I think this is utterly disgraceful that you did this and pretend its a personal thanks when clearly you simply do not care enough to find the facts

Utterly heartless, uncaring and unthinking. You should be ashamed

Jeremy Pascoe ( Julie Stuarts bereaved partner)

the replay never actually says sorry Head of HR replied as the ceo is on holiday

When my mother in law died in similar circumstances there were so many things and people we were angry with,

When my dad died we had to deal with... I think Carphone Warehouse, but I'm not 100% certain so don't assemble the pitchforks just yet. My mum called to cancel his phone contract and they were like "you're not the account holder, he'll have to call us..." Like, we set fire to the bastard two days ago so good luck with that.

I called them and got a similar runaround. I hung up, kicked the sofa about for a bit and deployed some inventive Anglo Saxon, then rang them back full of piss and vinegar. Got a different call centre woman who said, "oh, I'm so sorry, you need to talk to our bereavement service," and put me through to someone who could not have been more empathic or helpful. It just took like five phone calls for that to happen.

Funny things, corporates.

Am I missing something, what are you actually angry about?

That the letter said " a personal thank you" she was off sick with stress for over a year. She did not retire she was terminated. Its obviously not personal

then the non apology merely compounds the anger

but I do take the point that its not worth my energy and attention.

Absolutely not the same situation, but to give you another example of a v large employer (this one was about 135,000) of awesome personalisation and timing:

After 10yrs with my previous employer, on the day of 10yr anniversary I got a bunch of flowers (nice), a badly photocopied circular letter (that wasn't even straight on the page) thanking me for my 10 yrs in lots of glowing praise, and then later the same day got called in to see Boss and HR as role was made redundant.

Boy, did I feel valued that day!

Think also just leave it TJ, it is rubbish, you have said your bit, prob for this one best move on to avoid it consuming you with negative thoughts.

fooman – thats the point. Its not a personal thank you – its a box ticking exercise they are claiming was personal

would you really expect anything different from ECC? or indeed any large organisation? if the letter had arrived a month earlier what would Julie have done?

I would like them held accountable for what they have done.

What sanction would you be satisfied with? do you really think a better-written apology from someone who has made it further up the greasy pole by writing platitudes will make any difference to you or indeed the next person?

if the letter had arrived a month earlier what would Julie have done?

Nothing - she was dying at that point

If it had arrived while she was well enough to reply she would have been as angry as i am. she was off sick with workplace stress that the council did nothing about and she never retired. She was terminated

What sanction would you be satisfied with?

Disciplinary action for lying and for the non apology.

the non apolgy is from the head of HR - the top of the pole

consensus her is clear tho and I will follow it

My friend died whilst employed by local council. Flag on council office flown at half mast on day of funeral. Council paid for flowers and hand written letters from high up seniors in the council.
Let it go, you have said what needs saying and pointed out how much they really care about their staff

Disciplinary action for lying and for the non apology.

Disciplinary action against who. The council employee who first drafted the now standard letter 40 years ago? the automated computer system which sent out the letter, and probably thousands of identical letters every week? The various regulation authorities which stipulate that employee details must be retained on systems for a particular period of time after leaving employment?

As said above, if a well meaning but mistakenly sent letter with no follow up needed from an old employer is the worst thing that you have to deal with after the death of a partner then consider yourself very lucky.

Don't rip people a new one. If there's one thing this world isn't short of, it's arseholes.

Disciplinary action for lying and for the non apology.

They'll have no staff left if they take action for being economical with the truth and writing vacuous meaningless apologies!

I say let "them" have it

Get your anger out

With respect, and it's understandable, you seem to have been spoiling for a fight on different threads ??

Better for it to be in this manner, via email exchange to a faceless organisation, rather than out in the real world where something might (and I know its a very big might) physical happen or you end up upsetting someone not really deserving it.

But do it for what it is and don't expect much of an outcome.

Good luck

Unfortunately, every one of us who has been bereaved will have a tale of corporate insensitivity.
My contribution:
A final bill from British Gas, saying "Good news, you're using less electricity compared to this period last year".

Errr, yes, dead people tend not to watch much TV or turn on the lights.

Since the bill was addressed to me, as my late mother’s executor, they KNEW she’d died six months earlier.

Since the bill was addressed to me, as my late mother’s executor, they KNEW she’d died six months earlier.

It's just a computer spitting out letters, no human involvement at all. Someone updated the contact details on the account and the computer spat out the letter with those details. It doesn't know nor care about anything, nor anyone and never will do; it just spits out bills and letters in their millions. Until someone deletes the account it will spit out letters for the next 50 years or more....

Grief can be a strange process ,during the angry phase it's easy for lots of things to get out of proportion .I always think of my good friend Doug, a very kind and lovely man ,lost it completely in a garage forecourt when someone pulled in front of him at the pumps .The day before his partner had their twins die during the birth, so there he was rolling around on the floor, angry at the world and full of pain. This next wee while will be hard for you TJ, try not to jump at all the little things that jag ,in the end they don't really matter.

As others have said - its an automated/template letter which has probably never been seen by a human.
Although upsetting i'd let it go, the process of grieving is hard enough without taking on extra stuff to get wound up about.

Another vote for letting it go.

My best mate was dying of cancer, a council employee too. They were so good - after he was diagnosed as terminal, they put him on some kind of fully-paid sick leave. He was so grateful, it was a big relief as he and his fiance were quickly trying to arrange their wedding before he died.

Then, about 2 months before he died, they said sorry, but that had all been a big mistake, and he now owed them several thousand pounds in overpaid wages.

That was Manchester City Council. The absolute ****ers.

I know the anger this stuff can induce - MrsDoris has been going through it recently with BT after her dad died too. You can rage against it but it probably won't get you anywhere. And you've got enough on your plate as it is. Don't let these pricks pile it even higher. Ceremonially burn their stupid letter in the back garden, have a drink, and remember the good stuff instead.

As others have said – its an automated/template letter which has probably never been seen by a human.

I know this is likely - so why keep lying

On a monthly basis Andrew ( ceo)receives a report detailing all employees who have left the employment of the council in the previous month so he can write to them to thank them for their service.

From thre non apoloogy

Its not eating me up and i wasn't sure if I was over reacting hence asking folk on here.

One thing for sure tho I spoilt somone elses day as well which maybe will have to do

especially since I told them she did not retire but had her employment terminated and I am gong to get my lawyer to look into the legalities of this. that will get HR shitting themselves

But I will take a telling from you lot 🙂 Ok - I get the message

Tj it must be somewhat difficult for a large organisation to get this right. You’ll know as well as anyone that when you hear of someone within your organisation (say someone in your hospital that you don’t personally know) dying at a young age, it saddens you and their can be a collective sense of loss. It is understandable that an organisation would want to send their condolences. Whilst the way it was done may have been far from ideal, I would suggest trying to accept that the intentions were good. You have made it clear that the process probably needs to be improved.

The personal part, probably relates to it being delivered to a particular person.

As others have said, if I were you (which is easy to say, as I’m not and hence have no idea how I would feel) I would remove it from my mind.

Wishing you well.

Its the lies followed by the non apology. Its just sheer incompetence. all they have to do is contact the line manager
Intentions are not good in any way. Its a pure and simple PR exercise.

If they do things this badly they should stop attempting to do anything and stop lying.

Its easy to get this stuff right - all yo need to do is behave with a degree of propriety and car and compassion

Agree with the above. Better to let some stuff just go.

And I will given the overwhelming consensus.

As above, the automamagic letters are a bit of a kick in the teeth, but what were you expexting? a bunch of flowers and a box of choclates?

Anger (at the right time) is good. Forgiveness (at the right time) is also good and cathartic too. Don't let the Christians monopolise it.

LOlz @ bugjohn I am a bit more old testament than that - an eye for an eye

Its the way they attempt to state its not an automatic letter but a personal one and the non apology has compounded the offense with an incredibly patronising "Andrew completely understands your frustration and disappointment at receiving his ‘thank you’ letter to Julie "
he has no idea how I feel. I am not frustrated and disappointed. I am angry

I have sent back a really snotty email in reply to the non apology stating that the HR boss has compounded the offense by patronising me ( never a good move) and by outright lying to me ( I bet she never called the CEO while he is on holiday) and lying by pretending this is a personal letter when it clearly is not

Ill see what answer I get to that and more than likely leave it at that unless they lie or patronise me again

I really just want to ruin their day more than they ruined mine. I want them squirming with emmbarrassment

its not the first time the CEO and I have crossed swords ( statutory notice scandal) I came out on top on every other time.

But yes - I am not going to let myself be consumed by this but I need them to understand, accept and acknowledge what they have done including the offensive patronising non apology.

HR boss is going to be very unhappy with what she gets on her screen in the morning. good.

I am now laughing knowing that they have no way to recover from this. Ill update with what i get back but thanks for the perspective. Its not worth losing sleep over. I understand that now.

Its the way they attempt to state its not an automatic letter but a personal one

I'm convinced HR people believe a letter is a personal one if it is addressed to "Dear Jeremy" rather than "Dear employee".

I really just want to ruin their day more than they ruined mine. I want them squirming with emmbarrassment

can you squirm if you don't have a backbone? I don't want to disappoint you but I'm pretty certain HR staff are immune to snotty letters - if they had that level of emotional intelligence they would not be working in HR, and certainly not for the council.

My dad passed away 2 years ago. My mum cancelled his car insurance policy, and two days later got a letter addressed to him with a cheque in it for the remaining policy fee. ADDRESSED TO HIM.

She spent about 2 months trying to get it resolved, not without getting three or four more cheques for my dead dad. I remember my mum on the phone saying "A dead man can't cash a cheque!".

Sorted eventually, but even though it's a common event death - it's far less common that the other things these companies deal with - so they invariably get it wrong.

I am not going to let myself be consumed by this

Yes, you are.

but I need them to understand,

No you don't.

The only further victory to be had here is pyrrhic. Stop it.

Automated systems screwed up, someone returned a semi-apology likely because they panicked, and you've had an assurance that they'll review their processes for the future. You've put a rocket up their arse and that's a win.

You have nothing else to gain here but there is a lot to lose if you tie yourself up in a knot over it. You've enough to cope with already without making it your life goal to take on an employer over a stupid letter that whilst misguided was probably configured to be sent with best intentions.

Pick your battles, pick your targets. Hell, come fight me, dickhead.

(Gnnn, caveat for the avoidance of doubt for spectators, that last sentence wasn't serious. TJ and I have been here for a while.😁)

My dad passed away 2 years ago. My mum cancelled his car insurance policy, and two days later got a letter addressed to him with a cheque in it for the remaining policy fee. ADDRESSED TO HIM.

She spent about 2 months trying to get it resolved, not without getting three or four more cheques for my dead dad. I remember my mum on the phone saying “A dead man can’t cash a cheque!”.

This thread has brought memories flooding back of trying to sort all this stuff out after my dad died - the above was very much my experience. Some companies were absolutely great, but some just didn't seem to have any kind of process for dealing with a customer that had died. One of them even demanded we send them the original death certificate to close an account.

From memory, we had to send a few letters by registered post stating words to the effect of: "Mr Batfink Snr is deceased, any further correspondence addressed to him or otherwise insensitive of this fact will be disposed of unanswered".

There is obviously a much bigger issue here, and that is about grief manifesting as anger. My old man died when I was 23 - and I really struggled. His death was as a result of asbestos exposure when he was younger, and so we had to go through post mortems, coroners courts, court cases, solicitors etc. Coming into contact with all this bureaucracy (much of it with the aim of actually putting a price on the years with him we had lost - he was 54) obviously resulted in interactions with quite a few people who did or said stuff that was extremely insensitive/upsetting.

Looking back, and reflecting on that time - the hardest part of grief for me is feeling angry that people can just be carrying on as normal while the bottom has just completely fallen out of your life.
"life goes on" feels like trite bullshit that people say when they can't think of anything else..... but it's true, and is extremely upsetting. The garage will still phone you to tell you that the car needs a service, you will still get a parking ticket, the neighbor opposite will still have their kids birthday party the day after the funeral, junk mail addressed to them will continue to arrive etc. That's the stuff that I found the hardest to deal with - particularly in the first 6 months.

Sorry - I don't have any great advice on how to deal with all that - other than to say, recognize when you are starting to get angry, and just don't do anything in that moment - don't send an email/letter/make a phone call etc. Just walk away (literally and figuratively) and come back to it later. You are not really angry at the person you are dealing with - you are angry because you are grieving, and the person on the receiving end probably doesn't deserve both barrels.

Sorry - don't mean any of that to sound condescending, apologies if it does - but it's what I would have told myself 20 years ago.

Some companies were absolutely great, but some just didn’t seem to have any kind of process for dealing with a customer that had died. One of them even demanded we send them the original death certificate to close an account

Exactly my experience when my dad clocked out.

You are not really angry at the person you are dealing with – you are angry because you are grieving, and the person on the receiving end probably doesn’t deserve both barrels.

this is just not so. I am angry at the lies, incompetence and the non apology that compounds the annoyance and the person who wrote the non apology is the top HR person at the council and does deserve both barrels because of their sheer incompetence and emotional illiteracy

I was taught as a nursing student how to make apologies. they break 3 cardinal rules of apologies in one short letter. thats gross incompetence

Also I ( following the consensus on here) will let it go now.

You’ve done the right thing TJ, and I agree the apology is shit. All someone needs to say is, ‘oh no I’m so sorry, that is really shit’ or words to that effect.
As for systems, just as a computer can send a letter, an employees computer record could have a flag on it to stop all letters unless checked by a real person.
This kind of thing would be a useful change to
Put in the next software build.

but I need them to understand,

It's just a job to them, they don't care and don't need to (and probably better they don't). The only person who cares about this is you.

. I am angry at the lies, incompetence

So in a nutshell you're angry that life isn't perfect and fair. It's not and never will be (as you already know). You're just venting your pain at them (which is understandable).

This kind of thing would be a useful change to put in the next software build.

But such a rare occurence that dealing sensitively with relatives of dead ex customers is going to be so far down the list of priorities it will never get fixed.

No I am angry because they have been unthinking and uncaring and then compounded it by the non apology which is actually pretty offensive and shows gross incompetence from the top of HR

Edit - but with the perspective you guys have given me I have let go of the anger dn am now laughing at the prospect of what the senior HR bod received this morning from me and how they will react

I get it - its not worth lose my shit over so i won't.

they have been unthinking and uncaring

They didn't know your wife personally, they didn't live with her for decades. She's just an ex employee, send a letter, close the file, move on to the huge pile of other things to do.

Really sorry to tell you, but no one in the council gives a shit.

When my mum died of cancer we were exposed to just how crap people and organisations can be in what should be a pretty straightforward case of just show some ****ing sense and senstivity.

District nurse when topping her up with end of life pain killers - 'there you go Dr Bennett - enjoy...' I mean FFS - yes I wanted to tear her a new one right there and then. Just an astonishingly poor, unprofessional thing to say

And then when she had died her automatic drug dispensing thing had run out and was just stuck in her arm beeping away. I phoned the district nurse team for someone to come and remove it as it was upsetting at the time:

'Hi - my mum died in the night and the thing is her arm is just beeping away. Could someone come and remove it please'
'When did it run out?'
'Don't know - about an hour ago'
'Do you know when the district nurses are next due to visit?'
'No - some point today but my mum's now died so we just want this thing taking out now as it's unsettling us all - beeping away to a corpse'
'I'll make you an urgent appointment shall I?'
'Yes please'
'Would you say you mum was in much pain?'
'For ****s sake she's ****ing dead...'

Again, I really wanted to shout and scream at someone but in the end just let it go. Still makes me angry thinking about it every so often though...

TJ its already been said but unfortunately you are going to have to ride this as it is likely to be the first of many.

My brother in law recently received an email from the London Hospital he was in, asking for feedback. My sister filled it in on his behalf:

Food 3/10 Pretty awful
Staff 10/10 Couldn’t have been better
Overall: 2/10
Any other comments: I died

Unfortunately modern automated bureaucracy is pretty much unstoppable. A polite (or deeply sarcastic) letter or email might at least persuade someone to change the system to avoid similar emails being sent in the future

Again, I really wanted to shout and scream at someone but in the end just let it go.

Right call.

The poor person on the end of the phone is reading from a script and if they deviate they'll probably be hauled up and disciplined for it. The patient dying mid way through treatment just isn't a high enough occurence / priority to make it into the process.

As for the people appearing insensitive / uncaring, I suspect they have to be like that other wise you'd just go mad and top yourself. A good friend is a paramedic, he sees people die all the time (watched a 5 year old choke to death the other week whilst 5 of them tried to save his life). If he let every case matter to him he'd kill himself. He fully admits he'd totally unsympathetic to anyone ill, which I think is just a natural defense mechanism to cope with the role.

I have no issue with the letters arriving for her. I understand. Its the crap way this was done and the patronising non apology thatthen compounded it.

but no one in the council gives a shit.

I know that - but the pretense that its something different.

Receiving a letter to "Dear Mr Deceased" really upset my Mum 23 years ago. She chased for an apology and got a pretty good response, but it still ate away at her. IMHO try and forget it and move on, you have enough to occupy your thoughts/time at the moment and are probably (understandably) a bit raw emotionally

My dad passed away 2 years ago. My mum cancelled his car insurance policy, and two days later got a letter addressed to him with a cheque in it for the remaining policy fee. ADDRESSED TO HIM.

That's because his estate 'owned' the money.

I know that – but the pretense that its something different.

Todays claim culture determines how organisations and companies respond to complaints, no one is going give a genuine heartfelt apology for being insensitive, even if they want to and even if you receive something that looks like one it will have been passed by HR to check there are no openings for a complaints procedure, it's just the way it is.

Those that knew and liked her will miss her, but organisations, most nowadays anyway, see caring for staff as a linear procedure more to do with not being prosecuted than anything else, if they think you are upset or potentially going to complain they will get even more careful and nothing genuine will come, the pretense you see is the same corporate pretense to caring the world over.

The non apology was so poor. I was taught to make better apologies than that when i was a student nurse and it came from the head of HR!

Broke 3 cardinal rules of written apologies

It will be interesting to see what response i get to my snotty reply to it.

But i am no longer invested in this - its become an amusement for me

I got a much better apology from the head of HR today acknowledging what she did wrong. Thats the end of it.

It includes this line

I’m sorry that my email came across as patronising and offensive to you. This was not my intention. I should not have made an assumption as to your feelings on receiving the letter from Mr Kerr to Julie.

Still poor but a damn sight better than the first non apology . "came across as" rather than "was" is still a non apology

Its still pretty poor that the head of HR cannot write a proper apology