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Been bugging me for years and just watched another Netflix shootemup and then realised that STW has a wide variety of members and someone might actually know:
1) what is the recommended distance to stand away from an unarmed but handy person that you are covering with a gun?
2) in the early part of a knife fight, is it best to hold the blade pointing the same way as the thumb or opposite?
Many thanks, and no I didn't spill your pint. 😉
So we need a member that gets into knife fights and owns a gun?
This could be niche even for here.😁
Was it any good - what did you watch.?
Pistol - most folk would struggle to hit the inside of a barn when stood inside it. Seriously close range only.
Not done much knife fighting…
I was always taught that anyone who lets you see the knife, doesn't know how to use it.
1) US law enforcement work off the 21 feet rule, (which includes drawing a holstered sidearm) but there are some issues with it.
2) As a general rule icepick grip is seen to be better for attacking, but has limited options for angles compared to hammer grip. Hammer grip is generally better for being attacked as you can counter more easily against the attacking hand/arm (know in Philipino martial arts as defanging the snake).
However, Petiki Tersia Kali favours icepick grip (in general) for being able to deflect and get to the attacker's blind side.
All bets are off, though if you're faced with the "prison sewing machine"
So we need a member that gets into knife fights and owns a gun?
Hi! 🙂
Guns aren't my thing, but I train (and train others) in blade and impact weapons stuff. It's largely unrealistic - if someone really wants to stab you, they're going to - but it is good fun 🙂
So we need a member that gets into knife fights and owns a gun?
This could be niche even for here
I'm sure there are a few weegies on here.
1) jumping distance plus arm's reach minimum, preferably much, much further.
2) in the very early stages of a knife fight the best option is to safely sheath the knife and run like mad in the other direction.
but I train (and train others) in blade and impact weapons stuff. It’s totally unrealistic – if someone really wants to stab you, they’re going to – but it is good fun 🙂
Best knife disarm techniques session I did we used marker pens in place of knifes at the end. Everyone was ‘cut’ to shreds pretty quickly.
2) in the very early stages of a knife fight the best option is to safely sheath the knife and run like mad in the other direction
This was the advice I was given by someone who had served time in NI, Balkans, Iraq and a few other places he couldn't tell me about.
The gun depends on wether its firing a subsonic (generally a 9mm) or supersonic high velocity often a 223 (but there are many many others) round. A subsonic round over a relatively short distance maintains a fairly level trajectory. However a high velocity round leaves the barrel and dips, before rising, before levelling off again. If you are too close the round will strike the object lower than your aim!! Thats why snipers or sports shooters using perhaps a 308 or larger over distance have to dial in elevation to the scope to counter the fall and rise of the round. And also adjust for wind! It can be complicated!
I know nothing of knives.
Guns, I have no idea.
Knife, best way to deal is to shout knife and get as far away as you can.
Official Govt training that.
Further, if you feel your life has been threatened (I'm going to kill you, ya XXX) then all bets are off. Do whatever you have to, upto and including killing them first. Obvs, a witness to the threat of death is a big help.
Also official Govt training.
Some folk on here know way too much about 'dodgy stuff'. Someone knew the hourly price of hookers last night ! 🙂
1. As close as you feel you need given the situation.
Long barrelled weapon: depends how good a shot you are! but I'd want to be in a fairly stable position if stood off more than 10m. Trying to take a standing shot of a target closing on you is not easy, you will likely miss! Up close you can use similar techniques to a short barrelled weapon.
Short barrelled weapon: there are ways and means to have control of a person and maintain your ability to engage at close quarters.My preference was having them prone. The other would be on their knees, ankles crossed and hands behind their head. Pistol drawn, control hand close to chest with left free to maintain distance should the situation change.
The oft cited 21 foot rule has been debunked many a time, ignore it. Once the adrenaline starts pumping you'll be lucky to strike as they close with you, especially if you do what most people do and move away as well. You also then run the risk of hitting people other than your target, the greater the distance, the point of impact/aiming error magnifies.
Some of the techniques you see on screen do make me shudder
2. **** knows, if things went that way i've managed to lose two weapons and made some horrific tactical decisions that have put me up a creek without a paddle. Kick them in the balls and get some space between them!
How long should you chat shit with the person you're about to kill? I'm assuming it's necessary. It is right?
Long enough for you to not notice them moving to remove that hidden weapon you failed to find when searching them.
@sirromj
You would think so, if you believe movies/tv.
Hypothetically speaking, IF i was going to attack someone, i sure as **** wouldn’t tell em first.
Best advice has been given above, run like ****.
I’ve known personally, 2 people who pulled knives during a fight.
They both have knife wounds.
From their own knives.
1) doesn't matter. In the most realistic training they were able to create, using VR headsets, huge screens etc, in the US, the police officers missing their targets about 97% of the time. There was a shoot out, I think it was two gangs, about 300 rounds in total fired, no one hit.
So unless the end of your gun barrel is glued to some part of the targets body, you'll miss. Adrenaline does interesting things.
2) hold it by the blunt end. That's what I know.
) in the early part of a knife fight, is it best to hold the blade pointing the same way as the thumb or opposite?
I was told if someone has the knife pointing same way as their thumb and their free hand in front to lead with you’re in real trouble. Nasty things knives
@kilo, from things you've said in other threads, I think I used to do the same job as you. But I wasn't a kilo.
So I totally agree!. Run like xxxx is the thing to do! I really feel bad for cops, who deal with this shit daily. Get it wrong one way and they could die. Get it wrong the other and they are crucified. All over a split second decision.
A cop friend decided to be gentle... Got stabbed in the neck. He's lucky to be here.
There's a whole world between what you get trained to do and real life. My personal opinion, after 12 years of said training, is that they only train you, to give the powers that be, an excuse when it goes tits up... Well we gave him the training, not our fault if he didn't use it...
Seriously close range only.
This. Surprisingly hard to cluster and get good accuracy. I went to a shooting range in Florida to shoot 9mm pistol. I wasn’t too bad, but was surprised how fast accuracy falls off. Fifty feet was pretty terrible. Twenty feet was just fine and very well clustered. And that’s relaxed and static paper target. Not stressed with someone running at you with a knife.
in the early part of a knife fight, is it best to hold the blade pointing the same way as the thumb or opposite?
I know someone who is... let's say "quite good" at martial arts.
He taught me, blade up in stabby mode, there's a hundred counter moves. Blade down out of the fist in slicing mode the only sensible defence is "not get hit with it" and then counter once they've missed.
Granted this advice was 30 years ago, but source.
You're either too old for Neo, or too young for Remo 😜
There was a shoot out, I think it was two gangs, about 300 rounds in total fired, no one hit.
The A-Team never seemed to hit anyone no matter where they were.
1. Across the other side of the room. Then, when the villain starts walking towards you, you warn him "One more step and I shoot". Then, when he keeps walking towards you, you give a final warning, "I really mean it, I'll shoot if you don't stop." Then, when he is about two meters way, you cock the weapon and give another final warning, "I will shoot if you come any closer." Then, when the villain walks right up to you, you drop the weapon and engage in fisticuffs until the villain gets hold of the weapon, in which case you beat him senseless, take the weapon back, and then shoot him at point blank range.
2. Your right-hand knife should be held in hammer grip, left-hand knife in icepick grip. If you don't have a knife, you let the villain stab you in the chest. His knife will stick in your rib cage. You then pull the knife out of your rib cage and use it to stab him.
Probably better to pistol whip the assailant if you can actually hit him with bullet.
Carry 2 knives right hand directional with thumb the other not.
All 9mm ammunition is supersonic, but some of it only just. In fact the vast majority of off the shelf centre fire stuff is supersonic. 22LR can be had in both flavours though.
The reason snipers etc choose other rounds is due to the ballistic performance of the bullet but mostly because you need to put enough shove behind it to keep it supersonic all the way to the target. When the bullet enters the transonic region as it slows down it becomes unstable and accuracy goes out of the window.
Handguns are much harder to shoot accurately than most people think.
@TheDT's that's brilliant, lunatic with a knife threatens you just show them that video and you'll both be laughing within seconds and off down the pub together best of mates.
Handguns are much harder to shoot accurately than most people think.
The best technique to improve aim is to hold the gun flat. If you move the gun forward as it fires it imparts a useful bit of extra velocity, and if you can say something rude about your target's mother at the same time he's as good as dead.
As far as knife fighting goes I was told that the loser dies at the scene of the fight and the winner dies in the ambulance.
Interesting adverts popping up with this thread. It's gone all fake military kit.Not as good as the womens underwear I was getting just now.
what is the recommended distance to stand away from an unarmed but handy person that you are covering with a gun?
Doesn't matter, according to TV, because no-one ever shoots anyone they are holding a gun at. Once you notice it, it looks absolutely absurd. Person A with a gun trained on person B for several minutes, then person B pulls their own gun out, person A doesn't shoot. If you're not going to shoot someone when they go for their own gun then when are you?
about 300 rounds in total fired, no one hit
And yet 15,000 people a year get shot to death in the US alone so clearly people are hitting each other.
Handguns are much harder to shoot accurately than most people think.
I've messed about on firing ranges with targets (large and small) and found it relatively easy to hit pretty much everything and that's just a few hours messing about with them (ie very inexperienced).
eg these 'spinners' were pretty easy to hit both the small and large targets...
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/3464/3989809881_bf5c934a1f.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/3464/3989809881_bf5c934a1f.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/75yPtx ]Spinners and a 9mm pistol[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/2487/3990563582_757e879596.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/2487/3990563582_757e879596.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/75CFwo ]9mm[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
The most fun bit was setting up a timed course with weighted targets where you could set how many consecutive shots it would require to knock the target down. Each person set it up for the next and then you were timed by a machine (based on time gap from first bang to the last) to clear the course.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/2650/3990565400_153db98410.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/2650/3990565400_153db98410.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/75CG4J ]One down, one going down and one to go...[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
, according to TV, because no-one ever shoots anyone they are holding a gun at. Once you notice it, it looks absolutely absurd. Person A with a gun trained on person B for several minutes,
I'm amazed at how long they can keep a longbow at full draw, a few seconds for me, certainly not long enough to take hostages covered!
Handguns are much harder to shoot accurately than most people think.
I can fully endorse this - if you haven’t done target practice with a handgun before you first have to use one, you will struggle to hit anything.
In the US I was with some work colleagues on a trip to the municipal firing range. We practiced with a 1m cardboard box at about 8m distance and none of us newbies could it it in the first half dozen shots!
The Yanks who practised reasonably often could hit the box with most of their shots.
When i trained martial arts we used real knives and yes people did get cut, we deflected the blade and struck the opponent or deflected and controled the blade. Most people who get stabbed never see the knife, the best form of defense is awareness.
Having shot pistols on a UK 10yd range in the late 70s I think some of you are very optimistic about not being shot, even by someone who has never shot before. I'd run like **** because shooting people in the back isn't done is it and will earn the shooter a long prison sentence.
I’d run like **** because shooting people in the back isn’t done is it and will earn the shooter a long prison sentence.
Only if they're white, if they're black it's just self defense.
When i trained martial arts we used real knives and yes people did get cut,
was it at a kickboxing club in Glasgow..
Many moons ago, wandering down a street in Amsterdam, happened on a commotion that had spilled out from a street bar. A tall, long haired guy in a grubby denim jacket and a younger, slicker guy in a shiny shell suit squared up to each other. Both produced knives. They both held them in the right hand aligned with the thumb (as I recall it) and proceeded for a time to feint backwards and forwards at each other. Me and my mate (and the rest of the crowd that had formed) stayed at a safe distance to observe (21 feet apparently).
They both lunged a few times at each other and both leapt out of the way when necessary. Almost balletic. But it quickly became apparent that they were as scared as each other at the thought of being stabbed/cut/sliced by the other.
After a while (felt like minutes, was probably no more than 30 seconds) they both stepped back. The shellsuit nodded at the other guy. The hairy one went back into the bar and the shellsuit walked quickly away down the street.
The obvious conclusion is that the best defence against someone with a knife is to also have a knife. In a kind of mutually assured destruction type of way. I know this is fundamentally wrong. Seemed to work on this occasion though.
We repaired to a local coffee shop to breakdown what we'd seen and say Wow a lot
The best technique to improve aim is to hold the gun flat.
Then you can really show your l33t sh00t3r sk11z by catching the hot ejected cases in your teeth and spitting them back as a distraction. 😎
One other thing that I’ve learned over the years from watching films and tv, is that you never take a knife to a gun-fight.
Something else I’ve picked up from cop procedural and things like CSI, is that quite often people using knives end up cutting themselves quite badly, because they’re using knives taken from the kitchen, or shoplifted, and which have no finger guards, so the knives slip in the hand and the user gets badly cut fingers.
And yes, I know that ‘Rambo’ knives are a thing, but they’re pretty useless because of the sawback getting caught up in fabrics.
Frankly, the nastiest weapon to carry is a flat blade screwdriver, with the flat edges sharpened. Cheap, easy to hide, easy to dispose of, and will punch through most materials. No way would I be spending £60+ on a combat knife just to bin it after a fight.
No way would I be spending £60+ on a combat knife just to bin it after a fight.
Well, it's good to see that someone's considering VFM in their stabbing activities. Some of you need to check your privilege. We're not all made of money in the knifing community you know.
1. From my training and having to use it, first thing is person will be on floor, if the order is refused then keep enough distance so that they cannot lunge, distance will always depend on situation, but to put that into context I've had a muzzle in the back of throat of someone due to the risk posed.
As soon as you start hearing the whizz and crack you'll all be pooping pants anyway.
2. Covered by most, try to avoid a life fight, no such thing as a non dirty fight, they come at you, use what ever you have if running isn't the first option.
We’re not all made of money in the knifing community you know.
Surely if you're a member of the knifing community in need of a bit of extra cash, it's pretty easy to rob someone of it.
I mean, if you've got the knife, you may as well use it! 😉
Movie scenes where a bad guy with a semi-automatic unloads a host of rounds at the good guy from 100m away, the good guy remains unharmed, fires 2 shots from a small handgun and the bad guy collapses. Yeah, that's not going to happen...
In the US I was with some work colleagues on a trip to the municipal firing range. We practiced with a 1m cardboard box at about 8m distance and none of us newbies could it it in the first half dozen shots!
Really??? I'm no expert, but the last time I had a go on a firing range with a 22 pistol I was easily hitting the (small) target at twice that range. (Which is clearly not the same as hitting an angry assailant running at me, btw)
Many years ago a chap ran into my local with a knife waving it around just after I had left
I wondered what I could have done had I been in there. two things I thought of - one would be using a chair like a lion tamer to try to pin him to a wall the other being wrap my leather jacket I often wore around my hands and rush him / try to wrap in in it
i am one of those folk that cannot be a bystander
so those of you who know this stuff would either tactic have been any use? fortunately I never had to find out.
When i trained martial arts we used real knives and yes people did get cut
was it at a kickboxing club in Glasgow..
😃😄
My teacher's said we'll be using live blades at some point.
I might have flu that day...
They both lunged a few times at each other and both leapt out of the way when necessary. Almost balletic. But it quickly became apparent that they were as scared as each other at the thought of being stabbed/cut/sliced by the other.
Very familiar scenario for me; when I get people to spar with padded sticks they just go nuts as the consequences of being hit are minimal. Swap for medium weight rattan and the game completely changes.
Chair yes, possibly a good tactic, but you'd need to be assertive. Other thing no.
Too much chance of impaling yourself on his blade.
Having shot pistols on a UK 10yd range in the late 70s I think some of you are very optimistic about not being shot, even by someone who has never shot before.
Was the target a) human and b) shooting back? Probably not comparable then. I shot clay pigeons and got pretty good at it. I have no illusions that I could translate that accuracy to shooting another person who was shooting at me.
isn’t done is it and will earn the shooter a long prison sentence.
They changed the duelling rules years ago. Back, front, manbits. I don't think it really matters anymore
Frankly, the nastiest weapon to carry is a flat blade screwdriver, with the flat edges sharpened.
The nastiest weapon is an old fashioned T handled corkscrew. Makes a right mess going in and a bigger one coming out.
leather jacket I often wore around my hands
Is leather jacket scottish for gloves?
If you've got nothing else, I'm told wrapping it around your forearm to deflect a blow might work buts it's a desperate last measure when taking to your toes isn't possible.
I'd have thought throwing your drink in his face and hitting him with the chair might work better. Or throwing one chair at his head and hitting him with someone else's.
Unless you can get your hands on a chemical fire extinguisher. Those are a pretty good long range vision reducing tool. Then hit him with that.
Ta
I'm a lover not a fighter - haven't hit anyone since I was in primary school but I cannot be a bystander - I have broken up a couple of fights on the street. I do a good Begbie act but its all bluff
Thank goodness I didn't have to and the situation was resolved without injury
Rule No. 1: Always take a gun to a knife fight.
As MTBers our best form of defence is shining 4000 lumens in their eyes whilst making our escape.
d. A subsonic round over a relatively short distance maintains a fairly level trajectory. However a high velocity round leaves the barrel and dips, before rising, before levelling off again.
Not quite true I’m afraid. All rounds, subsonic or otherwise, leave the barrel in the same straight line, but immediately start to drop, in a progressive fashion as they loose energy due to friction(air resistance) and gravity. The “dip effect” you mention is caused by the simple fact the sight of a hunting/sniper or target rifle is above the line of the barrel. This means that if say the sight is set to the centre of a target at 100m, the bullet effectively climbs to reach it, and may even strike higher over the next few metres, before dropping back down through the line of sight. Beyond that it bleeds off energy at a predictable rate (calculated using the round’s Ballistic Coefficient) and so it’s trajectory can be plotted and predicted. Sight adjustments are made to take that into account.
As an example, my target rifle has a sight line 1.9” above the bore of the rifle. At 50 m it strikes just under an inch low, on target at 100m, back onto line of sight (secondary zero) around 150m.From there on you need to make increasing elevation corrections. At 915 metres the elevation adjustment required is around 21 feet.
However a high velocity round leaves the barrel and dips, before rising, before levelling off again.
no. bullets cannot fly, ie they do not generate lift. well, there is a thing called aerodynamic jump where side winds can have a minor effect on elevation at long distances. everyone must be familiar with the fact that if you drop a bullet at the same time as letting a gun off which is perfectly horizontal, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time. Also, if you line up a load of different firearms of different bullet weights and muzzle velocities and arrange it so all the bullets leave the muzzle at the same time, they will all hit the ground at the same time, assuming the is no side wind at all. Some will have gone a lot further than others of course.
On the other hand, subsonic rounds by definition are going slowly so have a very lobby trajectory. The bullet drops due to gravity which is constant, and it slows down horizontally as a function of it's ballistic co-efficient, and it's mass.
my target rifle is zeroed at 200yards, to ensure that the bullet has had a change to come up and back down again, ie it is beyond the 2nd zero. i need 24ft at 900 yards with a 200y zero.
Really??? I’m no expert, but the last time I had a go on a firing range with a 22 pistol I was easily hitting the (small) target at twice that range.
Yep, found hitting targets pretty easy on a shooting range. Not being able to hit a 1m target at 8m sounds very odd; unless they were completely pissed.
Knives for e-bikers:
My guess is that it depends on the gun. I've only fired two, one was a .22 pistol, at a range, and I got all my rounds in about a 5cm circle - not sure of the distance though. However with the .45 revolver I was so scared of the recoil that my last round didn't even hit the paper. Completely different.
I wondered what I could have done had I been in there. two things I thought of – one would be using a chair like a lion tamer to try to pin him to a wall
Unless the bloke with the knife is very cooperative about where he puts his arms at best your hands and forearms will get sliced to bits.
haven’t hit anyone since I was in primary school but I cannot be a bystander
I really hope you're in the same pub as me if something kicks off. Not that I expect you'll achieve anything useful but I'm not as quick as I was and could use a couple of extra seconds to leg it.
Scapegoat. Lots of what you said sounded good, but this bit:
but immediately start to drop, in a progressive fashion as they loose energy due to friction(air resistance) and gravity.
The grammar is a bit confusing. Are you saying that they lose energy due to friction and start to drop due to gravity?
Or are you trying to say they lose energy due to friction and gravity?
(Hope it's the former)
Has the OP been watching Steven Seagal movies, in which case being within 1 foot is optimal, also holding the blade opposite the thumb works, as this allows the use of slappy jitsu, so that the good guy doesn't have to actually move or do anything energetic.
Some folk on here know way too much about ‘dodgy stuff’. Someone knew the hourly price of hookers last night ! 🙂
First rule of the internet, surely? If you don't know anything then just invent a response. But make sure you respond with something, anything. The second rule is to assume that at least the first dozen replies on any subject are utter balls. (And in line with my Rules of the Internet, I've invented these. 😀 )
Are you saying that they lose energy due to friction and start to drop due to gravity?
they slow down as soon as they leave the barrel, at a rate determined by the ballistic coefficient and the weight of the bullet, atmospherics such as temp, air density and so on affect this. ie the air slows it down.
Energy is a function of bullet velocity and bullet mass. the bullet has the most energy right at the muzzle, where the mv is the highest, and it loses it all the way until it stops.
Bullets drop vertically at the same rate over time, regardless of how heavy and fast they are.
so, yes.
However with the .45 revolver I was so scared of the recoil that my last round didn’t even hit the paper. Completely different.
My US friend just taughht me to pull the trigger softly so you didn't know exactly when it would fire and thus not anticipate the recoil which would spoil your aim. After that, it was pretty easy firing anything. Although I found the AR15 pretty terrifying - more the fact that anyone just go and buy one and start shooting the place up and there's not a lot that's going to stop one of those rounds - sail right through normal body armour or a car (bar the engine block). Completely insane country.
not anticipate the recoil
No you can still anticipate it, as in - there's a loud noise and unpleasant sensation happening any time now. I liked the small gun did not like the big one at all. Like being inside a water tank as someone hits the outside of it with a sledgehammer, where your hands are.
Yes , they lose energy as a result of air resistance and drop because of gravity.
As target shooting evolves bullet design concentrates on producing a bullet shape which is most efficient. Some of the modern rounds have remarkably low BC, with long, small diameter bullets which due to their length can be heavy.
I use a 6.5mm round weighing 143grains, pushed at 2750 FPS which doesn’t go subsonic until 1300m or so. A 165 grain 7.62mm bullet (pretty common target round) will start to drop under the sound barrier at 800 to 1000 even when pushed at similar or even higher muzzle velocities. It’s the point at which the round goes transonic which causes less predictable trajectories. So the lighter bullet can carry energy further due to its more efficient shape.
Porterjamie & scapegoat.
Sorry, didn't express myself very well my only concern was that someone had written:
they loose energy due to friction(air resistance) and gravity.
Which is clearly bollocks. But it appears like we agree that it's bollocks as written and that gravity has sod all effect on the velocity of a horizontally fired bullet. So that's fine.
Some of the modern rounds have remarkably low BC
pedant alert - very high BC.
my 178 eld (308) is transonic at 1000yards but it only comes out at 2500f[s.
Generally, longer bullets have a better BC (ie they are more aero) and as your diameter is fixed to add length you must add weight. Some bullets have a plastic tip which increases the BC without increasing the weight. your mans 6.5 creedmoor up there is a much more efficient round that the good old 308/7.62 it is fast because it is light, and it has a good BC because the bullet is heavy for calibre and therefore long. at least thats my excuse when a creedmoor puts in a better group
edit add, he is going to say he is 260rem now
that gravity has sod all effect on the velocity of a horizontally fired bullet. So that’s fine.
what about the vertical velocity....
Ah well, all’s well now we’ve cleared that up.
In other news, the training we had was to create distance. Great advice to be fair. I wouldn’t ever want to face anyone skilled in their use. I faced three people wielding knives over the years. The first time was a pissed-up eejit with a carving knife in a kitchen. I shut him in and waited until others got there before rushing him and hitting him with a short piece of wood til he fell over.
Wearing body armour and wielding a baton worked well on the next one. This was a burglar carrying half a pair of tailor’s shears sharpened to a spear point. As I ran in he rushed out and we met in the porch. The blade surprised me as much as I surprised him, and again I simply hit him with the issued side-handled baton til he fell over.
The next one, several years later, produced a butterfly knife. He failed to open it properly before my colleague sprayed him with CS.