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Central bank independence is an illusion.
The sooner politicains (of either stripe, I don't really care) come clean on this, the sooner we can have senisble democratic accountability and mould the central bank into a form that rather than has price stability and interest rates control as it's major function, we can choose to use it's power to reverse chronic underinvestment, ballooning private debt, rising inequality, and climate breakdown.
I'd ideally want Starmer to start banging this drum, but we need to have this discussion sooner rather than later.
democratic accountability and mould the central bank into a form that rather than has price stability and interest rates control as it’s major function, we can choose to use it’s power to reverse chronic underinvestment, ballooning private debt, rising inequality, and climate breakdown.
This was one of McDonnell's core economic policies (so Starmer will stay well clear). Without wanting to be conspiratorial, I often think the price Labour paid to the market for winning the 97 election was central bank 'independence'. It enshrined the protection of asset prices into the financial system and de-risked speculation making a lot of people very rich. The power of a central bank needs to be used for the benefit of all not just a tiny few at the top.
Even if politicians recognized and just spoke about the fact that interests rates are not politically neutral. and that while being a useful tool against price instability - it's not the be all and end all of Central Bank use, and that they effect the poor to a disproportionate amount and at least try to mitigate it.
Those traffic jams you excoriated earlier – how many of those people are taking a local UK holiday instead of flying to Bermuda or wherever?
indeed. Or just doing 'stuff'! I'll be one of those people on the M4 this bank holiday weekend. Visiting a friend's birthday party. It's 40 miles each way, and the cost of public transport (for two) is about 400% of the cost of the petrol.
I don't think Edukator's comment that people choosing not to take the (very) expensive option shows that they have loads of money to squander really stands up to scrutiny, although I agree that this world would be a far better place if everyone drove less, and that our governments are doing sweet FA to actually bring that about.
and that our governments are doing sweet FA to actually bring that about.
Not enough people are going to vote for a govt who're honest about restricting car use. That's the start middle and finish of that conversation. Committing to reducing emissions is about the best you're going to get.
so its pretty well established that the main grunt of the cost of living crisis is based on the wholesale energy prices, and they’re forecast to go up, and then up some more for a couple of years.
is it? wholesale energy prices are not as out of control as that; products which aren't classically energy intensive to produce are going up too.
Thing is, creating gas/electricity hasn’t actually got more difficult or expensive. We can’t buy it from russia, sure, but a bunch of countries who can’t be as principled can, so the gas they produce will, mostly, still be used. In europe we’re going to rush around building up infrastructure/do deals to get our fuel in from elsewhere, and at some point, in a few years time, that’ll be done.
Part of the stupidity is that renewables energy cost (market price) is tied to gas price.
trying to sidestep the “everyone will just keep it as profit” school of thought, won’t that redress the supply side of supply & demand, and so the 300% increase in energy prices we’ve seen will fall back through the floor, causing potentially more economic pain on the way back down?
it will only fall in a market where there is true competition (or government-enforced price regulation) otherwise the suppliers will sit on the profit. So even if energy costs fall - that won't lead to prices of all products falling - indeed if it puts more cash in consumers pockets, and consumers spend that money on discretionary items it could actually fuel inflation couldn't it?
Rampant consumerism and energy waste is probably better controlled through painful prices than positive messaging, so long as those who have no choice are either protected or enabled to get choices.
How much of UK inflation is linked to energy cost here? It looks to me like there are other factors - weak pound v dollar; brexit related labour shortage; covid making people change life/work/business priorities etc.
I suspect that rather than mass deflation - employers will need to take a serious look at how they pay lower skilled employees so they can afford the basics of life. Key employers will start and everyone else will have to follow because why would I do some high stress job for mediocre pay. Public sector is typically really slow to respond to these sort of trends and so they will make a mess of this. Ultimately they will have to, and increase taxes to pay for it which will put costs up!
Another fun STW thread. Some folk really do wish we just immediately stopped our lives and lived in caves to save the planet.
These are the threads I come here for, great entertainment 😀
indeed. Or just doing ‘stuff’! I’ll be one of those people on the M4 this bank holiday weekend. Visiting a friend’s birthday party. It’s 40 miles each way, and the cost of public transport (for two) is about 400% of the cost of the petrol.
Only if your car is otherwise free,
Sauce:
Return tickets Reading to Swindon for two - £39.20 (assumes you have a railcard, which seems fair if we're allowing the assumption you're allowed several thousand pounds worth of car).
Vs fuel @ £8/gallon. So to break even needs to do 20mpg (quite likely to manage that), but 80mpg, that's either impossible or in a car that's certainly new enough you should be counting the depreciation each day.
Also, what kind of friend is it if you can't have a beer with them on their Birthday?
Of course it can, that’s exactly what QE does, it manipulates the markets to drive down bond yields*.
And QE is inflationary, which drives interest rates up...
I did say the cost of the petrol! And I'm staying over 😉
I suppose the assumption of the railcard is reasonable (though I don't actually have one)
The car does about 40mpg. But you haven't included the cost of getting to and from the train stations on local transport, ie about £2.50 per person at each end of each leg, so about £20 in bus tickets to add to the train fares. (and let's save the calculation of how much time to allow to get to the station in time for another day, but it's quite a lot!)
shows that they have loads of money to squander
I should perhaps have made the distinction between sqandering money and sqandering energy and squandering both. I don't consider spending on reducing ones carbon footprint to be squandering money.
If you're an STW regular you'll recognise people with pretty extravagant lifestyles in terms of spending on CO2 emitting non-essentials complaining about the price of gas, and finding excuses if people suggest ways of saving money through energy saving in their homes or lifestyles that are inconvenient or don't pay back within a month. That's if they aren't plain hostile and take offence when their absolute right to pollute as much as they want at minimal cost is questionned.
And QE is inflationary, which drives interest rates up…
Why then did interest rates remain at about 0% since 2008 and have only moved since COVID and war started a supply crisis?
Cars on *average* cost 45p/mile to run - whether they do 30mpg or 70mpg - when you account for all costs
Work out your costs on 45ppm, not mpg which only looks at a small part of the cost of using / owning a car
What about the costs of leaving the car stationary whilst you're on the train?
It amazes me how many people on here inhabit some low interest rate la la land. Chronically low rates have only served to make the poor poorer and helped fuel the massive wealth inequality that society now suffers from.
It's very simple - if you (a wealthy individual or organisation) can borrow money at 0.whatever% (i.e. for nothing) you would be a fool not to, because even some crappy rental is going to give you 3-8% yield (in fact it's usually the case that the crappier they are the better the yield). And of course house prices are not going to drop because low rates are supporting the mortgage market. It's like taking candy from a baby. And the same applies to any sort of financial speculation - stocks, VC, art, shitcoins - as soon as enough people (aka the middle classes) are doing it it becomes a self perpetuating cycle (yes, a bubble).
Rates need to go back up to reasonable level in order to give the system a good cleansing and discourage so much wanton speculation. If your buisness is not sustainable in this environment then goodbye - find a new job - it's not the role of the governement to support your useless and unproductive existence. The capital markets need to be allowed to function unimpeded (but within bounds of regulation) in order for them to be efficient. Low rates have been interfering with that functioning for far too long.
Of course, there is no easy solution to all this. Too much money has accumulated in the hands of too few (good luck getting that back!) and the working classes have been screwed to the point where they are pretty much serfs once again (good luck reversing that!); but the idea that maintaining low rates and putting more money into the system can fix our problems is just crazy.
Why then did interest rates remain at about 0% since 2008 and have only moved since COVID and war started a supply crisis?
Because without QE we could have had deflation and negative interest rates during that period?
Work out your costs on 45ppm, not mpg which only looks at a small part of the cost of using / owning a car
but, further nuance, people do a variety of things in their lives.
I have a job that requires me to have a car to visit sites.
I have 2 hobbies that require a car (or, admittedly, a nearby helpful friend with a car)
Given the above, I own a car. Its a 2013. Ive had it nearly 4 years. Depreciation less than £1k per year if we neglect the post covid boom. MOT, service, maintainence £500 per year on average. Some things like tyres are proportional to milage, other things are not.
Insurance, wont change drastically with varying milage.
The cost of me embarking on an additional random journey in my car, is pretty much purely fuel cost.
but the idea that maintaining low rates and putting more money into the system can fix our problems is just crazy.
Depends entirely on where the money is spent.
Because without QE we could have had deflation and negative interest rates during that period?
But, as we now know, QE didn't increase the money supply, Think of it as Reserve Creation. it just went into the profit column of the major banks, so wasn't inflationary Printing money is inflationary, but that's not what happened.
Cars on *average* cost 45p/mile to run – whether they do 30mpg or 70mpg – when you account for all costs
Work out your costs on 45ppm, not mpg which only looks at a small part of the cost of using / owning a car
Huh, just totted it up. I always thought as I don't have a posh car, I'd be under 45p. But because I do low miles, fixed costs push me back up! In the last 3 years I've done 4500/yr, at 49ppm (that's with petrol at £1.80, which is a bit high. At £1.40 I am actually bang on 45p).
Even at 49p a mile, and even with a 30% railcard discount, once you factor in the time and cost of getting to and from the train station, with two people the car is about 25% cheaper and 50% quicker.
Thinking about some other regular journeys, if I count railcards and a car cost of 50p/m, they probably come out about even, just on the price of the rail fares. Which is quite interesting tbh. But then bus/taxi fares at each end make quite a difference.
Every now and then I run the numbers on Car Clubs, hoping our low mileage might suit them. But I can't really justify it yet. Hoping this car will last a few more years and then I'll take stock again.
Anyway. Sorry for thread hijack!
If you’re an STW regular you’ll recognise people with pretty extravagant lifestyles
You can say that again!
And QE is inflationary, which drives interest rates up…
They've been using QE since 2008 on a massive scale. How much did inflation and interest rates go up in the 14 years between then and now? The inflation we're experiencing now is not caused by QE. As with 2008 and 2020 the danger is deflation, not the opposite. Raising interest rates now in combination with no QE only increases the the likelihood of it happening and makes it worse.
And QE is inflationary, which drives interest rates up…
Nonsense - as above.
Q/E in itself is just purchasing bonds by the BoE - that is in no way inflationary. The spending that takes place before Q/E happens could be inflationary (and not through Covid) but nothing compared to the supply shocks we have had.
See Japan, or UK in the last 10 years.
but the idea that maintaining low rates and putting more money into the system can fix our problems is just crazy.
Lol - where do you think the money comes from to drive a dying private sector?
The banks didn't bail themselves out in 2008.
I'd agree cheap debt has not done us any favours overall - but it's lack of decent wages and productivity that actually drives most of our issues.
But the only way a screwed market economoy that doesn't produce much can grow is via the leverage of cheap debt. That's what's been chosen by the establishment. Of course it was going to end badly.
See 50 year mortgages for christ's sake!
Of course, there is no easy solution to all this. Too much money has accumulated in the hands of too few (good luck getting that back!) and the working classes have been screwed to the point where they are pretty much serfs once again (good luck reversing that!); but the idea that maintaining low rates and putting more money into the system can fix our problems is just crazy.
Maybe the "working classes" should pay more attention to who they vote for then...
And car vs public transport - I choose who is in the car with me.
Rates need to go back up to reasonable level in order to give the system a good cleansing
Thereby punishing those in debt and rewarding savers who have accumulated lots of cash. Is that what you mean by 'cleansing'?
it’s not the role of the governement to support your useless and unproductive existence.
Nonsense. If the govt took that attitude in 2008 and 2020 the economy would have collapsed. We're in a similar situation now. Do you want the economy to collapse? How would you benefit from that?
Of course, there is no easy solution to all this. Too much money has accumulated in the hands of too few (good luck getting that back!) and the working classes have been screwed to the point where they are pretty much serfs once again (good luck reversing that!);
Of course there's an easy solution. That's what fiscal policy is for. Tax the people/corporations with too much money, and redistribute it to the working class via higher wages and investment in public services and infrastructure. That's what happened for decades before Thatcher started to dismantle it. It needs to happen again, and can be easily achieved by a political party willing to put it to the voters.
too much money has accumulated in the hands of too few (good luck getting that back!) and the working classes have been screwed to the point where they are pretty much serfs once again (good luck reversing that!);
Of course capitalism concentrates wealth. No good for the larger society.
it’s not the role of the governement to support your useless and unproductive existence
Economy start with your government and the central bank. So it is - or it's a problem for everyone.
People have this idea that there's money swilling around from the private sector alone! The private sector can't create money in the same way the BoE can - it can only make loans and pay them back.
And car vs public transport – I choose who is in the car with me.
It wouldn't be a cost of living thread without a few "efff society, I'm alright" answers
IMO, a more diversified economy in the UK would make it less vulnerable to external shocks like the Ukraine war. BoJo should have been honest about the cost of supporting Ukraine - Putin is taking action directly against the UK here.
We need more support for Agriculture and industry eg 80,000 preferential visas for farm labourers and better access to export markets.
All the talk of low taxation / small state sounds great, but has long-term consequences. Leaving it to the market means under-investment in large projects (eg power stations), which only government can/will do.
Surely it's cheaper to pay for that now (through higher tax/more borrowing), rather than in 20 years time, when we have to.
On another note, it's not really the fault of 'Politicians'. We vote them in and out.
Near to me, a small incinerator project, run by a local firm was objected to by residents.
This would have produced low cost power for the nearby industrial estate, burning waste (mainly timber - there are lots of wood factories around). Every wind turbine development meets the same fate. So who's fault is it?
And QE is inflationary, which drives interest rates up…
The usual weapon of choice to maintain an inflation target is the bank rate. In 2008 it was lowered to 0.5% and still wasn't achieving its aim and couldn't really be cut further, so QE was deployed for the first time
QE lowers interest rates on loans which boosts spending, but it also increases property and share values. This helps people who own property and shares, but others are priced out of property and shares, so we're back to the argument that we could be increasing taxes in a targetted way so that debt can be reduced without punishing, for example, pension funds
We haven't sold any Government bonds yet but some have matured so that the overall QE total is reduced, but not by much
Even the deeply insecure who have the need to spout the I'm alright Jack and we are sorted willy wave blah blah can get caught out in a recession. Capitalism has a way of biting all sorts of people on the bum.
Back in the early 60s in south Brum not many people had cars but on th ebank holiday there were hordes of people walking over the Licky hills and enjoying a picnik having caught the bus to Longbridge or Rubery.
Was that before or after Beeching?
Was that before public transport was more expensive per mile than driving?
Was that before public transport services were cut to only the most profitable times or routes?
Must be great living in France. Again, your experience of current public transport in another country bears no relevance to someone living in the UK.
That’s if they aren’t plain hostile and take offence when their absolute right to pollute as much as they want at minimal cost is questionned.
That's really not why we take offence to your posts.
Again, your experience of current public transport in another country bears no relevance to someone living in the UK.
I suspect I've used more UK busses than you, Squirrelking, even in the last ten years. When did you last take a National Express or even local bus? The services to Longbridge and Rubery still run.
Public transport my anoos.
Apart from being eye-wateringly expensive and unreliable and having to mix with, well the public. It takes all the spontaneity out of life. Say if I just needed to nip to the local shops for some milk:
I could, go online to find the bus timetables. Then get utterly confused as there are different companies doing the same route. Then, after selling all my possessions in order to pay the kingly price to board said bus, it would take me into the city centre, where I would have to change and get another bus (should it turn up) back to my general area, as near to the local shops as it goes which is still further away than my house to the shop. And then and only then, soaking piss wet through from the rain and having been assaulted by a spice fiend and having contracted both Covid and Monkeypox can I buy my milk.
Or, I could jump in the motor and be back making a cup of tea on ten minutes.
When did you last take a National Express or even local bus?
I don't use buses because they don't go where I need them to at the speed I need them to, they're just a slower service that follows the same routes as the trains. The only exception was when Megabus ran overnight services many moons ago that were cheap and convenient for my needs. If I use public transport I'd use the train but they're still unreliable at best, if it's not engineering works it's weather, if it's not that then it's strikes.
But that's my point in a nutshell. Public transport has absolutely no incentive to use it outside of cities. That needs to change. Why does it cost me the same or less as a single ticket on the train to drive somewhere? That's before anyone joins me on my journey which significantly increases the cost per person on public transport and reduces by car.
I know from experience of travelling in Europe that the UK isn't remotely comparable.
Or, I could jump in the motor and be back making a cup of tea on ten minutes.
Or walk. Or take a bike. Imagine…
take a bike
I’d have to unlock it out of the shed then lock it outside the shop. And even though the shop is only 5 minutes away it’s downhill so I’d have to pedal back up. I don’t want to go for a bike ride I want to buy some milk.
Walk
Hahaha. Oh wait, you’re serious. Actually, I did saunter down to the shops occasionally during the heatwave.
You'd drive 5 minutes for milk?
I always wondered if my neighbours were the only wierdos that drove to the village shop and back.
Is this breaking into the posh folk with cars debate, honestly, buses aren't that great any more, the one round our place does a massive circular to pick all the folk up, so if you want to get it for the 1 mile into town, it can take 30 minutes for the journey!
Using public transport often sounds great, but it's not exactly easy to support normal life activities over a car, or walking everywhere.
If the govt doesn’t do anything about energy prices there won’t be any public transport.
whatever happens to interest rates, inflation and CoL won't be by any form of informed design.
You’d drive 5 minutes for milk?
I always wondered if my neighbours were the only wierdos that drove to the village shop and back.
You wouldn't fancy walking the mile from my house to the Co-op in the dark - it is downhill though...
It's not the 90's. Nobody walks anymore. Except on a treadmill in the gym.
You wouldn’t fancy walking the mile from my house to the Co-op in the dark – it is downhill though…
a hill? a mile? dark? **** that, fire up the quattro...
You wouldn’t fancy walking the mile from my house to the Co-op in the dark
Yeah I used to live on a v steep hill that had the Co-Op at the bottom, tree cover, 40MPH limit (ignored; natch) and no footpath for good stretches of it. Only 1/2 mile, but took the car every time.
You wouldn’t fancy walking the mile from my house to the Co-op in the dark – it is downhill though…
Only 1/2 mile, but took the car every time.
I sometimes forget that outside the big cities* they've yet to develop portable electrical lights that enable you to get around safely at night.
Seriously, do some of you people just never leave your houses without getting in the car? How close is too close to justify the car?
*this is sarcasm, apart from university I've never lived in a city and definitely have a torch.
Not a question of close but a question of safe. There are plenty of fast rural roads with no pavements round here you just wouldn't walk along at night and some during the day too
I sometimes forget that outside the big cities they’ve yet to develop portable electrical lights.
Personally I just didn't want "hit by a car while shopping for milk" on my headstone. I think people who live in big cities forget that just beyond the suburbs, everything you take for granted pretty much stops; be that public transport, shops, street lights, pavements. Go out far enough and, like me, access to your house in often an unpaved road that delivery vehicles won't use.
I've moved to Manchester and the fact that I can walk to a Tesco filling station that's open 24hrs still feels weird. Tomorrow I'm off to ride the escalators at the Trafford Centre.
edit: saw your comment. sure, I had a torch, and obviously didn't always get in the car, but living where I did, (a hill that rose 250m in 1/4 mile) it was easier to wait 'til I needed a weeks worth, and go once, y'know?
That said I bike into town (6 miles) or to the garage (1 mile) when required
a hill that rose 250m in 1/4 mile
Thats as lovely a mix of units as bicycle tyres.
But thats a 250m rise in 400m length. I'm not sure my car will get up that.
But thats a 250m rise in 400m length. I’m not sure my car will get up that.
Clearly what was needed was public transport, such as a funicular to allow residents to get their milk without using their car!
But thats a 250m rise in 400m length. I’m not sure my car will get up that.
A 1 in 1.6 hill , it's all becoming a bit
I walk to the shops almost all the time but I agree there are roads where it's just not safe to walk. The lane between Pontprennau and Lisvane in Cardiff is a good example. Only just wide enough for two cars, which means they drive like it is, at 20-30mph, and this leaves no room at all for pedestrians. The only reason I ride it is that I can keep my speed up through the pinch points but I wouldn't take my kids on it unless during a national lockdown.
it’s all becoming a bit...
Given that it's the road from Hebden to Heptonstall, that's entirely appropriate.
There's an interesting plan brewing in the backgroud for energy companies. I could see this happening. Usual prop-up job.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1562335334607687680?s=20&t=r-FumNidTZUJSSMq5YlHxg
Why do you think the energy companies want govt help - so they get paid!
This is the cost of war. You either suck it up or let Putin win. He has us by the balls and knows it.
This is the cost of war. You either suck it up or let Putin win.
Now both sides cannot back down because they need to save face. Keep this up for another 2 years and life will become rather unbearable for some many.
He has us by the balls and knows it.
Our balls were offered to him and he just accepted them.
I bet he is caressing them with pleasure before he squeezes them. Ouch!
This is the cost of war.
It isn't the cost of war, it is the cost of corporate profiteering.
The direct impact of the war on energy supplies will be felt in those countries who's supplies are now limited and may need to ration in the winter, the rising energy prices is the cost of greed, the war is nothing but an excuse.
IF I have the right Richard Murphy (there are a few 🙂 ), Wikipedia has a write up, including a quote from Hansard, "Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell stated with regard to Murphy, "He is not the economic adviser and never has been, because we doubted his judgment, unfortunately. He is a tax accountant, not an adviser. He is actually excellent on tax evasion and tax avoidance, but he leaves a lot to be desired on macroeconomic policy""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Murphy_(tax_campaigner)
It isn’t the cost of war, it is the cost of corporate profiteering.
The direct impact of the war on energy supplies will be felt in those countries who’s supplies are now limited and may need to ration in the winter, the rising energy prices is the cost of greed, the war is nothing but an excuse.
I agree fully - the russian invasion of ukraine has accelerated, maybe that's the wrong word... caused certain minds to focus on, what was already a huge and ever growing crisis that pretty much everyone in UK politics has been ignoring for decades, the vast year on year record profits are going somewhere, yet the prices still keep climbing.
Follow the money.
It isn’t the cost of war, it is the cost of corporate profiteering
It's the cost of doing bugger all about climate change for the last thirty/forty years
The cost of posturing about climate change making western companies reluctant to invest in new fossil production?
The cost of posturing about climate change making western companies reluctant to invest in new fossil production?
An odd way of putting it, no one in their right mind surely thinks that further exploration and production is a good thing?
The blame for this one is purely at the government's door.
The private sector was never going to invest in renewables before it was profitable, that's just plain capitalism. And subsidies just pumped money into generators both large and the middle class gravy train that was the FIT.
They could have seen the need for green energy coming and started an entirely new publicly owned industry off the back of it. But nope, just half ass it and crossed their fingers the market would take care of it and there wouldn't be any unpleasant shocks in the meantime ........
An odd way of putting it, no one [s]in their right mind[/s] without even the slightest clue about the many uses of crude oil or gas beyond fuel surely thinks that further exploration and production is a good thing?
FTFY
Hope you don't want roads/pavements/runways in your brave new world.
Or medicines.
Or plastics.
Or paint.
Or anything with moving parts.
My EDF Lecky bill was due on 13 Aug, might they be dragging it out for the new price cap tomorrow?
FTFY
Hope you don’t want roads/pavements/runways in your brave new world.
Or medicines.
Or plastics.
Or paint.
Or anything with moving parts.
Yea........ I'd tell you who I work for but it would breach our social media policy 🤣 I'll leave it as read that mine would be an unpopular opinion amongst management. The sooner the company put us to better use on the renewables projects they keep talking about in their press releases the better.
Besides, we're talking about energy, not petrochemicals. There's more than enough production to keep us in disposable plastic trinkets for the foreseeable future, or medicine for the next few millennia if we're going that far down the value added chain.
This is the cost of war.
I see you have swallowed the propaganda. It's astonishing the effort people like yourself go to to make excuses for corporate greed even when you're the victim of it. Dominic Cummings had something to say on this yesterday and I fully agree with him.
https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1562465217292140544?s=20&t=KcZI-dlwLxzQJd8asaLo8A
Yea…….. I’d tell you who I work for but it would breach our social media policy 🤣 I’ll leave it as read that mine would be an unpopular opinion amongst management. The sooner the company put us to better use on the renewables projects they keep talking about in their press releases the better.
Besides, we’re talking about energy, not petrochemicals. There’s more than enough production to keep us in disposable plastic trinkets for the foreseeable future, or medicine for the next few millennia if we’re going that far down the value added chain.
Maybe maybe not, a transition isn't going to happen overnight and it's not just the UK that needs to do it so like it or not exploration and extraction WILL continue for some time to come. I don't like it FWIW but the changes are happening.
I see you have swallowed the propaganda. It’s astonishing the effort people like yourself go to to make excuses for corporate greed even when you’re the victim of it. Dominic Cummings had something to say on this yesterday and I fully agree with him.
Despite him agreeing with the person you're trying to argue with?
rising energy prices is the cost of greed
populist as that view may be, its not quite as simple as that.
demand for gas has risen globally, and especially for non-russian gas. If the gas extracting companies charged the same amount as last year, who do they sell their finite stock to? whoever asks first? what do we do when it all runs out? Blackouts and unable to heat/cook food don't seem like a great idea.
Higher prices surpress demand. if we can't increase supply, what other options do you propose?
Despite him agreeing with the person you’re trying to argue with?
No I'm arguing with the point that we simply have to 'endure' and accept higher prices because of the war in Ukraine. The govt can do something about that, but so far they're refusing to do anything, the result of which will be the collapse of the UK economy.
I Know Cummings is down with the youth and all that with his social media manipulation. Can someone explain to this millenial what TF this means?
"The 💣💣 will babble, collapse & 🛒 like the 🛒 himself, & do a *massive* bailout"
Higher prices surpress demand. if we can’t increase supply, what other options do you propose?
The free market mechanism for setting prices can not solve this problem and will only make it worse. The other options are obvious, which is for the govt to take energy into public ownership and then set the prices to end users at a level which households and businesses can afford.
“The 💣💣 will babble, collapse & 🛒 like the 🛒 himself, & do a *massive* bailout”
💣💣 = Liz Truss
🛒 = Boris Johnson
Basically he's saying Truss will do exactly the same as Johnson did during the pandemic, which is to delay action til the last minute, then do a massive u-turn when she realises it will make her very unpopular.
The free market mechanism for setting prices can not solve this problem and will only make it worse. The other options are obvious, which is for the govt to take energy into public ownership and then set the prices to end users at a level which households and businesses can afford.
right, but if they're at that level, demand continues to be high. If every government does that, usage doesn't drop, and we run out of gas. Keeping demand where it is doesn't work - there isn't enough gas.
You could theoretically keep prices low for the first x units, then inflate the prices outside of that but that then punishes some old dear in an un-insulated 300 year old hut in the hills of scotland. Doesn't seem fair?
Keeping demand where it is doesn’t work – there isn’t enough gas.
I've never said we should keep demand where it is. Obviously we need to reduce demand for gas, but doing that by crashing the economy is monumentally stupid.
He calls Johnson 'the trolley' because he veers around like a broken supermarket trolley, changing direction all the time, crashing into things, completely lacking a sense of direction.
He calls Truss 'the hand grenade' (i think) because she breaks everything.
I’ve never said we should keep demand where it is. Obviously we need to reduce demand for gas, but doing that by crashing the economy is monumentally stupid.
how do you drop demand then, in the short term? things like insulation are all well and good, but won't fix things this winter.
there isn’t enough gas
As I understand it, the amount of gas or oil on the market can to some extent be controlled.