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This is good thinking… encourage people to leave the car at home during the fuel crisis (can we call it that now?)
https://www.dw.com/en/everything-you-need-to-know-about-germanys-9-euro-ticket/a-61978439
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
People are calling for help with fuel prices. What if the answer is for that help to be used to make it super affordable to use public transport where possible. Public transport that is running anyway. Not exactly radical, in fact seems pretty obvious.
Great idea. One major headache for doing the same here is that Germany has a well funded and wide spread public transport system. We have a Fricking mess from under investment, Tory governments and entitled car drivers.
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
Sorry what? We live in a society, that means we all pay money into the pot, and it gets used for whatever is needed.
You need to stop thinking in terms of you paying for someone else's thing. That's not really how it works, and if you go down that road everyone ends up bitterly complaining about everyone else, and that's a really shitty life to live. It's a bit like being the person who refuses to buy rounds at the pub but in this case peoples whole lives are affected.
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
I bet they don't even pay road tax
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
Why not? Drivers have been getting subsidised for years, why shouldn't everyone else get a turn? Bring it on.
I’m a driver. I’m glad of all the roads we share (guess what, I didn’t fund all the building and maintaining of the roads I use out of my own pocket). People want the government to step in and help with the effects of the fuel crisis (why aren’t we calling it that as a matter of course), but tend to look at the more direct measures, changes to fuel duty, investigating pump prices etc… this just looks a far more interesting way to offer help. To me anyway.
I was saying something similar about domestic fuel prices, the answer isn't to make it cheaper, its to use less.
All this money being spent on helping people with fuel bills would be much better spent on, for example, insulation or grants for solar panels.
Same with this, don't make fuel cheaper, just help people to use less of it.
High prices might finally get some movement towards reducing carbon emissions
Correct @andrewh however that should have been worked on for years, unfortunately we can't insulate everyone's homes before this winter. The problem with the energy bill rises is that it happened very quickly so short term relief is required.
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
Can you imagine the uproar if all the healthy people had to stump up for the costs of hospitals? 🤦♂️
Public transport infrastructure is a must for society, but as usual the UK is blinkered by short term ism.
Doesn't matter if the dars are diesel, petrol or electric, traffic jams are still traffic jams
Why not? Drivers have been getting subsidised for years, why shouldn’t everyone else get a turn? Bring it on.
This
Drivers aren't subsidised.
Bus tickets couldn't be as cheap as they are if they gad to cover the cost of roads.
Trains- in Scotland 2/3rds of each fare is subsidised.
Of course drivers are subsidised. We get to drive around on roads paid for by local and national governments (and in some cases transnational bodies). If we only had the roads we paid for ourselves individually, we wouldn’t get far. And then there are all the external costs in terms of the environment and health…
Germany has to do this due to their relationship with Russia for Oil and Gas, they are currently working out how the hell they will be able to continue without access to it in the coming months, so this is more than Germany providing cheap travel for their inhabitants.
There are a few European countries that are going to struggle even more in the coming months, Germany get nearly half of their oil from Russia, the UK get under 10%, if a full embargo hits you can see which countries will be more affected!
If it were up to me I'd make all public transport free, bet you'd still see huge traffic jams but it's the best way of getting people out of their cars. I'd still cycle everywhere in town but that's cos I have a healthy dislike for other humans
Germany has to do this due to their relationship with Russia for Oil and Gas
Absolutely. But we also have a cost of living crisis, much of it linked to oil and gas prices... so there are plenty of calls here of "something must be done for people"... so why don't we think about doing something like this, instead of trying to address the issue by fiddling around with fuel duty and improving competitive practises at the pump? Reduce car use during the fuel crisis, help bring down people's travelling costs, and reduce fuel usage... all sounds like wins to me. It might even result in some us shifting away from some of our car use a bit faster in the long term (the real reason why people might object to it I suppose, the idea that fewer car journey is a reasonable goal in itself makes some people think that country will suddenly become "anti-driver"... and most of us are drivers).
Making all public transport free would cost about the same as cutting 10p off fuel duty (according to this economist). I know which I'd choose
https://twitter.com/AdamTyndall/status/1546511087046123520
Public transport free at point of use would be such a massive game changer.
ive thought this for ages
If it costs as little as 10p on the litre, i dont see what the hold up is!
(well i do, its a privately run travel network operating for profit)
As he points out in subsequent tweets, it's not quite as simple as that - and someone notes there'd be financial knock-on effects. If public transport was free, everyone would use it so we'd need to pay for more capacity, and fuel duty revenues would go down because no-one's using their cars. OTOH, I guess we could spend less on road maintenance and building and whatnot.
And obviously, the type of people who unironically use the phrase 'war on the motorist' would be purple in the face at the idea of other people benefiting from a public good.
Still, it's a nice thought.
Public transport doesn't even have to be free, as good and as cheap as in London would be a start. Remember over 60's already get some of it for free* already.
* I'm actually considering moving to a London Borough because it's worth it just for this perk.
Public transport free at point of use would be such a massive game changer.
ive thought this for ages
If it costs as little as 10p on the litre, i dont see what the hold up is!
(well i do, its a privately run travel network operating for profit)
I don't think private ownership running for profit is necessarily a barrier to 100% subsidy of public transport. There's still plenty of profit to be made from delivering services. In fact you could save a load of cost by not having ticket offices, staff, machines, dealing with refunds, pursuing non-payers, etc...
Remember over 60’s already get some of it for free* already.
All Busses free for anyone under 22 in Scotland too (need to be resident and register). Big discounts for over 50s (not at peak time) on Scotland's trains. Actually the only people paying "full fair" are commuters... the exact people who 1. We most want to displace from the roads; 2. Suffer the most from fuel duty increases (if they drive instead).
Whilst to me its a no-brainer policy (which would actually lead to sensible politics on improving services) we do need to be aware that many of the people who currently drive rather than use public transport for commuting etc do so because there are no services at the right time - hospital staff, care workers etc. working shifts.
My sister is currently touring Germany on holiday with her family using this...
I'd also add we need proper cycle carrying provision, in Italy last week I noticed a lot of buses had bike racks on the back. cycling, particularly E-bikes have real potential to bridge the gap between where public transport goes and where people want to be.
We had bike racks on buses here locally for a while. All the complainers complained... they got removed.
I'm sorry but that is F---ing ridiculous, who on earth does it harm? I despair of people sometimes.
We had bike racks on buses here locally for a while. All the complainers complained… they got removed.
The bus service I use for commuting has storage for a couple of bikes.
The only complaints I’ve heard are from the cyclists who wish there were more spaces for bikes to prevent them getting stranded if the spaces are taken, and one of the lazy drivers who always moans about taking bikes as he has to get off his fat arse and walk to the rear of the bus to open the door!
It’s a great system but not without its flaws. It works well enough that one of my neighbours has ditched his car to use the service and I’m toying with the idea of doing the same.
The drivers complained. The passengers complained about the time taken by the drivers.
we do need to be aware that many of the people who currently drive rather than use public transport for commuting etc do so because there are no services at the right time
This would describe me, I have a 50 mile round trip across shire boundaries. I have to drive from a large city to a small town. There isn't a rail option and the busses are a joke.
I lived and worked in Florence towards the end of the 80's and the buss service here in Leicester is still not as good as the service I used daily in Florence.
Largely thanks to the pandemic, I am now in the lucky situation that I able to work from home, although the company want us back in the office full time, it is recognise by our local mangers that it is really unnecessary for me to be in the office in order to do my job. Others in my company are not so lucky.
Of course drivers are subsidised. We get to drive around on roads paid for by local and national governments
Governments don't have their own money. They spend our taxes.
I'd love to, I like driving, but I ****ing hate driving to work, it's wasteful, expensive and annoying.
Public Transport just isn't practical for me because of the school run. It's 90 mins on the Bus, or 48 mins on the train, but involves a 3 mile walk each way. It's only a 45 cycle, but the walk / cycle is too much for my 8 year old to do every day.
The problem for us is that public transport in Cardiff is like the spokes on a wheel, if you want to get from any of the suburbs or other towns/cities into the centre, there are options, but if you want to get from Suburb to Suburb, there aren't.
As for increasing Public Transport use in general, it's already at capacity. The commuter trains and buses are packed, it's unplesant at best when it's warm but pretty danagerous during a pandemic or with small kids.
With the Summer Hols starting at the end of next week, I've going to try to cycle as much as possible. I've agreed with Work that I can take physical meetings / site visits on a 'next day' basis so I can bring my car only when I need to, but come September, I'll be commuting 9 miles a day at a cost of £3 or whatever it costs, until they either improve the system, or she starts High School in Sept 2025.
The ideal for me would be a network of Trams, we had them in the past in Cardiff, that allow you simple access to every part of the city, I don't mind if I have to change or it takes longer, or even if it costs more then petrol. I'd gleefully give up my car, and perhaps keep a small, cheap van for bike duties at the weekend. I might do that in 2025 anyway.
Governments don’t have their own money. They spend our taxes.
Yes, and motorists get a disproportionate amount of those taxes spent on them.
The ideal for me would be a network of Trams, we had them in the past in Cardiff, that allow you simple access to every part of the city
Have you seen the South Wales Metro plans?
Governments don’t have their own money. They spend our taxes.
Let's not argue the first point. But the second... yes we are all paying for the roads that each other uses. You don't pay for enough road to get you to work, never mind anywhere else... everybody else pays or it. Your car journeys, my car journeys... all use roads paid for by everyone else. Just like public transport... in fact more so... as a driver I very rarely pay anything on a "per use" basis... very few toll roads in England... I depend almost entirely on free access to roads paid for by local and national government, or transnational bodies... or by the taxes of everyone else if you like to think of it that simply. Unless you own a private estate, every drive you take is on roads paid for by millions of other people. Say thank you. Don't begrudge public transport also being paid for in much the same way (but topped up with pay per use fares that road users rarely have to pay).
as a driver I very rarely pay anything on a “per use” basis
I was thinking of going to Scotland in September, but all my tax money's gone towards the M4 that I use a lot. Do you think they'll let me on the M74?
Molegrips I'm also going to Scotland in September, I live north of you so if you want you can use my bit of the M6 🙂
Then we need to find some nice STW people that will let us use their roads in the area we are visiting 😉
It would be much better if we all put into one pot and then could drive most places 😀
My hope is that high fuel prices will begin to focus drivers minds on to reducing unnessary car use to the point that other options start to become more viable - making fewer journeys ( do you really need to drive 1mile to nip to the shop for a loaf?) using public transport more ( provision of which would improve with more users/demand and greater revenue streams, build it and they will come....), working from home where possible, living closer to work/schools, etc. Likelihood is it wont make siginifcant impact on reducing car use - society has been engrained to the point were cars are absolutely essential for human life - and we are wholly dependent on them at any cost, much to the delight of the oil companies, tax collectors and the car industry, but hugely to the detriment of the natural and built environment ( light, noise and air pollution, cancers / CVD from inhaling exhaust fumes, greenhouse gas emissions and the impacts on climate, obesity from lack of physical mobility, accidents causing injury and deaths and loss of green spaces to parking lots and road infrastructure).
The ideal for me would be a network of Trams, we had them in the past in Cardiff, that allow you simple access to every part of the city
Have you seen the South Wales Metro plans?
Yeah, more of the same, more faster trains from the Valley's into Cardiff and vague promises about more buses.
TBH one of the guys in my office is the son of the head of TFW. Lets just say, there's not much faith they'll be able to deliver even their modest goals in any sort of useful timeframe.
These are the weekday goals from this £800m+ project
"four services per hour between Cardiff and the Heads of each Valley
two of the four services from Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil will go on from Cardiff to Cardiff Bay
an extra service-per-hour between Cardiff and Bridgend via the Vale of Glamorgan Line from December 2023
two services per hour between Cardiff and Shrewsbury via Abergavenny from December 2022
an hourly service between Cardiff and Cheltenham via Chepstow from December 2022"
It's all about getting more people into the city centre everyday, it will still take an hour and a change to get from Llandaff to Taffs Well etc, or Llanishen to Danescourt etc.
Likelihood is it wont make siginifcant impact on reducing car use – society has been engrained to the point were cars are absolutely essential for human life
My understadning is that Holland in the 60s and 70s was horrendous on the traffic front. Very definately leading the way in terms of the country becoming a modern car dependant hell hole.
The government made some very definate, quite unpopular policy decisions to stem it and promote more sensible transport.
Point is, with the political will and the right people with the conviction to make the right decision, it could happen. I think it will happen.
Chris Boardman's appointment is fantastic, and i hope he gets the support where he needs it. Ive lost count of the variety of "XXX Live" articles misquoting him and undermining his efforts for the sake of facebook clicks. They ought to be ashamed.
Yes, and motorists get a disproportionate amount of those taxes spent on them.
Have you got any data to back that claim up?
As far as I can tell, direct motoring taxes like VED, Fuel Duty and VAT etc greatly exceeds the cost of maintaining our road network.
My hope is that high fuel prices will begin to focus drivers minds on to reducing unnessary car use to the point that other options start to become more viable
But it doesn't.
Using my office as an example, those who drive the half mile (yes really) are largely unaffected by the fuel price, they are quite happy to spend longer in a traffic jam than it would take to walk.
It's journeys where there is no public transport and which are too long to walk, ride whatever which are becoming too expensive, not the silly pointless ones.
My idea is a tax of, say, £10 per day, maybe varied for type/emissions of car, for each day the car is used. If that half mile cost a tenner they would walk!
Yeah, more of the same
The longer term plan includes things that you talk about - cross-city routes.
Point is, money and effort are being spent on making PT better and more integrated. Competence in delivery is of course needed as well, but at least there's political will which is a crucial first step. Don't let whingeing kill the whole concept.
The longer term plan includes things that you talk about – cross-city routes.
Point is, money and effort are being spent on making PT better and more integrated. Competence in delivery is of course needed as well, but at least there’s political will which is a crucial first step. Don’t let whingeing kill the whole concept.
I doubt my opinion will have a negative impact, I'm "whingeing" that the current system is overcrowned and not fit for purpose. Complaining could effect change, if I try to pretend the opposite and 'admit' I'm just too stupid or lazy to use it, because of some vague plans to change at some indetermined point in the future, you could accept our Gov saying "well, it's great, they're just lazy, let's beat them with a stick until they do the right thing".
On all these threads there are posts where people can't use public transport because they have a 50 mile each way commute from a small village to an out of town office. Or kids in 3 different schools in two towns. Etc
2 points -
1 - there will always be people for whom public transport doesn't work - that is not a reason not to improve it for everyone else
2 - we have built a society around car as primary form of transport. People have long car commutes because housing is built on suburban fringes/semi rural locations and work places decentralised. Shopping is out of town. Kids commute to schools miles away etc.
This change happened over decades and may be hard to reverse but to do do will take years and much infrastructure investment. But one thing that has become clear from areas where public transport has been invested in is that build it/provide it and it will be used.
The provide it point is important too, eg increasing frequency of buses on existing routes really increases use as it makes it more convenient and less impact of the odd bus failing to show
Finally to achieve any change it has to be publicly owned and run primarily as a service
On all these threads there are posts where people can’t use public transport because they have a 50 mile each way commute from a small village to an out of town office. Or kids in 3 different schools in two towns. Etc
2 points –
1 – there will always be people for whom public transport doesn’t work – that is not a reason not to improve it for everyone else
2 – we have built a society around car as primary form of transport. People have long car commutes because housing is built on suburban fringes/semi rural locations and work places decentralised. Shopping is out of town. Kids commute to schools miles away etc.
This change happened over decades and may be hard to reverse but to do do will take years and much infrastructure investment. But one thing that has become clear from areas where public transport has been invested in is that build it/provide it and it will be used.
The provide it point is important too, eg increasing frequency of buses on existing routes really increases use as it makes it more convenient and less impact of the odd bus failing to showFinally to achieve any change it has to be publicly owned and run primarily as a service
Can't argue with any of that, but going back to the start - even if PT was capped at £9 a month, or even free using the money saved from Javid's ficational political pleadge it's not going to suddenly mean a huge update in PT because for many, it doesn't work and for those who it does, it's probally already close to capacity.
My idea of transport Nirvana is Prague's excellent Tram network, or Sydney's excellent unified system, even London is usable for most. I'd give up my Car (which I love) without a moments pause of hesitation, but I can't. The best I can do is cycle or use PT when I can and this isn't 'all about me' I represent the majority of those bored idiots you see in traffic every morning, because we're not all driving half a mile because we're lazy or stupid.
1 – there will always be people for whom public transport doesn’t work – that is not a reason not to improve it for everyone else
Exactly... those that still have to drive, still benefit, greatly, from fewer car journeys being made by others. That should be bindingly obvious. More people on public transport makes the roads run better.
2 – we have built a society around car as primary form of transport. People have long car commutes because housing is built on suburban fringes/semi rural locations and work places decentralised. Shopping is out of town. Kids commute to schools miles away etc.
And all that could have happened with public transport infrastructure put in place to support it... but wasn't put in place... because people want to drive... so more people have to drive... and end up complaining about their blocked up roads and whining when someone suggests lowering the ticket price of public transport during a fuel crisis. 🤷🏻
As far as I can tell, direct motoring taxes like VED, Fuel Duty and VAT etc greatly exceeds the cost of maintaining our road network.
Yes, direct motoring taxation is more than they spend on maintaining the roads.
It doesn't cover policing, pollution (noise/air/water), Accidents, injuries and deaths, loss of environmental diversity, congestion, destruction of property (to build the bloody things in the first place), or space to store the cars when they aren't being driven.
And so on.
Numbers i've seen (by people in the know) suggest that in the UK, direct taxation on motorists covers about 1/3 to 1/4 of the "true cost" of motoring. Whatever that is.
it’s probally already close to capacity
It isn't. In Germany where this is happening, or here in the UK. This why this short term measure works there, and could work here. Public transport is not yet being used to the capacity it was before the pandemic. So, unusually, we have the chance to make a quick small positive out of two negatives... the effects of the pandemic can be used to help mitigate the effects of the fuel crisis in the short term. If you can get past the "I don't want more money going into services I don't use" mindset, it could be a win win for all of us this year. Yes, including people who have to drive to work.
The real issue is that once you are outside of London there is no public transport. Busses, privatised, trains, privatised, trams privatised. So what is this much lauded public transport system that we are all discussing? At the moment its poor and another way for public subsidies to be transferred into private sector profits.
The only way to get a better service is nationalisation so there is some proper integration. I know that wont happen and even if it was nationalised it would be as bad as HS2 which is going to the wrong station in London.
those that still have to drive, still benefit, greatly, from fewer car journeys being made by others. That should be bindingly obvious.
That one really gets my goat.
"well MAYBE the ELITIST Chris BOARDMAN is lucky enough to be ABLE to CYCLE but IVE GOT NO LEGS, so i thinkg EVERYONE should be forced to DRIVE eveyhere !11!!!1111!!"
No concept that encouraging and helping people who can get off the roads to do so, might benefit people who cant.
Idiots.
One thing that has always baffled me about the UK, having lived abroad most of my life, is the adversity to public transport. When you suggest getting the bus to someone you often get an almost dirty look, same if you mention you caught the bus somewhere
My mrs has some acquaintances (coincidentally very overweight people with no gainful employment, so the ones who could benefit from and have most time to walk) who will not go somewhere unless they are picked up in a car
I have colleagues who take a taxi from Southampton to London airports for ten times the cost and most times a longer journey time
Of course I’m generalising and it’s not everyone, certainly not my social circle, but I’ve never encountered the same thing even on a tiny scale anywhere else in Europe I’ve been. I doubt the richest 1% anywhere use buses but it’s the sentiment here that is just very weird
Busses, privatised, trains, privatised, trams privatised. So what is this much lauded public transport system that we are all discussing?
It's still called public transport because it's open to anyone and you use it with lots of other people, even if it's privately owned.
The real issue is that once you are outside of London there is no public transport.
I live in Manchester, and although I have a car, i don't need to use it on any regular basis, I can easily jump on a tram or go by bike to most parts of the city I might need, and the same is true of lots of my family who live in Newcastle.
Two very good examples, but other areas aren't like that Nick, sadly.
But anyway... this short term thing that is happening in another country isn't a fix to all and any transport issues, it's something to reduce fuel use during the fuel crisis. Whatever your knee jerk reactions to someone else getting a bus... why would you not want to try the same here for a short while? I can see no real downsides, except some people might object because, I dunno... they don't want to use public transport themselves, at this stage of their lives... as if that's relevant.
Sounds like a fantastic idea. Its currently cheaper for me to tax, insure and run a 4.2l V8 than it is to take public transport over a year.
Make it free
I would happily pay more tax to have a workable transport system for all.
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
Tory voter perchance?
What dick thing to say.
Hospitals. Pensioners bus pass. Schools.
I bought the 9€ ticket for last month just to get to the airport as it was cheaper than the standard fare.
Bought it for this month just because it's useful to have.
Munich is even offering a 365€ ticket for the year to ride all their buses, trains and trams.
Fortunately the bus and rail network in Germany is still pretty expansive and covers most areas reasonably well.
Can't see that being the case in the UK.
The Schönenwochenende ticket is awesome for touring as well if you don't mind taking all day to cross the country.
Also agree that outside of cities public transport is largely crap. But that's still not a reason not to encourage people to use it. If it's a viable option people will use it including those who are otherwise not as socially mobile
Drivers aren’t subsidised.
Take your £250 a year road tax and ask Tarmac plc how much road they would build you for that...
I doubt the richest 1% anywhere use buses but it’s the sentiment here that is just very weird
I guess it's part of British culture and class / status system eg the false attributed quote of Thatcher of 'when I see a man on a bus I see someone who has failed in life' etc. It just reflects out status driven society.
Maybe if all Victorian architecture in the UK was levelled, there would be an opportunity for decent rail networks.
Also, taxes are levied on things seen as 'bad'/private ie pollution, profit etc. They are spent on things seen as 'good'/public eg health, education etc. They are independent of each other.
The UK just isn't at the same stage as Germany, we need more investment over decades to improve.
European cities (I believe) are more densley-packed than say London or Manchester, so public transport is a better option. I would guess the average commute in UK is much longer than germany/France/Spain
Busses, privatised, trains, privatised, trams privatised. So what is this much lauded public transport system that we are all discussing?
well that sounds almost like Germany 😉
The only way to get a better service is nationalisation so there is some proper integration.
Tell that to Germany 😉
What Germany does have is many many regional "transport unions", kind of like TFL, which are jointly owned by each state, the cities and local authorities, etc. and every local transport operator provides the services in that fully integrated transport union region. And I mean *all* transport. Buses, trams, metros, trains (except intercity), underground, the lot. One ticketing system valid everywhere.
Many countries eg Germany, Japan + Spain have 'better' railways than the UK, using private operators. Granted, they may be subsidised.
You can have private operators on railways, if they are paid to run things for a certain rate and with well specified terms, and are not-for-profit.
Spain have announced something similar…
The President of Spain’s Government, Pedro Sánchez, has announced discounts of up to 100% for Renfe’s local, Rodalies and Media Distancia train tickets, as reported on Tuesday, July 12.
Pedro Sanchez announced the latest policies for Spain including free Renfe train tickets during the debate on the state of the nation, currently taking place in the Congress of Deputies and ending on Thursday July 14.Sanchez promised that all Renfe multi-journey train tickets would be free of charge from September 1 to 31 December this year.
The measure comes after a 50 per cent discount was approved in the last decree of anti-crisis measures approved by the Council of Ministers.
One thing that has always baffled me about the UK, having lived abroad most of my life, is the adversity to public transport.
You know the problem with public transport?
The Public.
Drivers aren’t subsidised.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Key facts
The researchers’ in-depth analysis has found for the first time that the health impact costs are significantly higher for diesel cars and vans compared to petrol, hybrid or electric vehicles over their 14 and 9-year lifetime. In inner city areas such as inner London:
Average cost to the NHS and society of a car is £7,714
The health damage cost from diesel cars is £16,424 and vans £24,555
Battery electric cars and vans are as little as £827 and £1,443 – the lowest cost
Petrol damage costs are £2,327 and £10,101 for cars and vans, respectively
Petrol hybrids cars have a damage cost of £1,824
Nearly 90% of the total £6 billion bill caused by emissions to the NHS and wider society comes from the impact of diesel emissions
Source: https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/health-damage-from-cars-and-vans-costs-6-billion-annually-to-nhs-and-society/
Tell me again how you pay "road tax"?
You know the problem with public transport?
The Public.
What about them?
“well MAYBE the ELITIST Chris BOARDMAN is lucky enough to be ABLE to CYCLE but IVE GOT NO LEGS, so i thinkg EVERYONE should be forced to DRIVE eveyhere !11!!!1111!!”
Never point out to these people that the disabled grannie they have to take to the doctors every other day is disabled by a world built around cars rather than people. Put in public transport so she's able to get around like everyone else.
You know the problem with public transport?
The Public.
That makes you part of the problem too (and also part of the solution).
Your link gives annual costs of £6Bn. Motoring taxes raise £35Bn.
£7Bn is spent on the roads.
Drivers are not subsidised.(except EV drivers)
.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmtrans/789/report.html#heading-0
Drivers are not subsidised.
Of course we are. I own zero miles of roads. I can drive on a quarter of a million miles of roads in the UK. We all subsidise each other.
Your link gives annual costs of £6Bn. Motoring taxes raise £35Bn.
£7Bn is spent on the roads.Drivers are not subsidised.(except EV drivers)
Sure, if you ignore the 10,000 early deaths each year as a result.
The argument as to whether drivers are or aren't subsidised is pointless - as is the argument that public transport shouldn't be free because drivers pay more than they cost. The government will find some stupid scheme to p*** that money up the wall if they don't spend it on something useful. Driver's aren't getting it back any time soon.
Remember what happened in lockdown and car usage went down? Petrol prices did too. Drastically reducing the need for fuel purchasing through free public transport would create an almost immediate price war on the forecourts which would (I have no doubt) see far more than 10p chopped off the price of fuel, whereas a cut to fuel duty would have very limited effect on anything but treasury receipts and oil companies profits.
So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks
Basically Yep because that's essentially what we already do for the precious, precious motor car: All that Tarmac doesn't lay itself, and those car parks don't just grow out of the earth for free, Car's are very heavily subsidised, well above what your VED covers.
The automotive subsidies come from both the public and private purses, and and are seldom questioned as being "essential" to allow society to function and people to get about or make their travel choices, But somehow subsidy of train tickets is a problem?
TBH it's a pretty good idea; if the cost of car commuting is a barrier to getting people moving for certain economic activity (mostly service hospitality and retail sectors?) to help restart industries recovering form covid, and we already have that Rail infrastructure it's a relatively easy/cheap subsidy and in theory the payback to the public purse will be via NI and corporation tax takings.
The battle here is around preventing a cost that workers face, which the government can't control (because essentially OPEC do) from preventing them engaging in economically beneficial activity (work)...
Of course a wee bit of joined up, consideration of the bigger picture isn't really part of the "Brexit Britain" mindset...
Drivers are not subsidised.(except EV drivers)
So what if they are or aren't?
For the forum, not specifically irc, a basic economics lesson:
Taxes go to run the country. That means all your goods and all the people who work at the places that supply your goods and the places that supply them and so on and so on, they all need to get around one way or the other; they need to be kept safe, they need medical care and education and all that. All our taxes go towards running a country. It makes no difference if you personally use a service or not - you live in the country, you work here (presumably) and that depends on the economy which depends on things governments provide.
The question is what is the best way to operate the country? Specifically with transport, is it better to build more and more roads to fill up with more and more cars? Or should we condense the travellers into mass transit solutions? Quibbling over who subsidises whom or who's paying for what is utterly destructive and pointless. It just allows people to sling mud from their own entrenched positions to those in other entrenched positions, and that is exactly how unscrupulous politicians want us to behave because this obfuscates things and enables dodgy politicians to continue to govern badly whilst ****ing over the people who vote for them.
It’s journeys where there is no public transport and which are too long to walk, ride whatever which are becoming too expensive, not the silly pointless ones.
This is my situation. There is public transport between Chippenham and Westbury where I work; however it isn’t direct, and while I could catch a bus relatively nearby, it takes two hours to get to Westbury, involving a change at Trowbridge, with no bus stop close to where I work.
Same with the trains, I have a mile walk to the station, there’s a change at Bath, and the small local train takes some time to get to Westbury, with a walk of nearly three-quarters of a mile to get to work. I have to start work at 6.30am, and I finish at 6.30pm. As it is, I’m getting up at 5am, and getting home at around 7.15pm.
Using public transport, even if it was virtually free, would mean around a fourteen hour day, possibly closer to sixteen, which is just not reasonable or practical!
My car journey is around twenty-five minutes in the morning, and around forty in the evening.
Drastically reducing the need for fuel purchasing through free public transport would create an almost immediate price war on the forecourts which would (I have no doubt) see far more than 10p chopped off the price of fuel, whereas a cut to fuel duty would have very limited effect on anything but treasury receipts and oil companies profits.
A very very good point.
Shame none of current candidates would even consider hanging their hats on such a bold, progressive policy, for risk of upsetting their core voter base
Democracy is about pleasing core voters.Nothing bad about that.
As for free public transport? Not sure how much it would reduce traffic I get free bus travel and the last time I was on a bus was when my car was being serviced.
The number of local bus users here looks like a tiny percentage of those qualifying for free bus travel.