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People confuse identity with political structures think. They usually aren't the same thing, politcal structures contain many different identities and are better for it. The political structures nor the identities contained within are infinite constructs, they are transient.
Basically, identify with what you will. And if you want to change the overriding structure of the political landscape you live in, well, find enough like minded people and crack on if you can. If you want to identify with something culturally, that's on you, not really up to anyone else to tell you your culture.
Nothing is permanent. Neither politics nor identity. It would be a terrible world if either of these things were a constant.
I have to say I think Ernie raised a very interesting point and I am finding it hard to think of reason why Canada would be excluded if its "cultural affinity" that defines us and what we feel a part of.
I cannot really think of a good reason / definition for why I feel affinity to Europe but not other regions.
Jamaica as Ernie mentioned is also interesting - I have always been a big reggae fan and reggae rose in parallel in Jamaica and England so something seen generally as a very Jamaican thing actually has some of its roots in England in the Jamaican diaspora
I wonder if part of the difference between Ernie and I on this is part of the difference in where we live in the UK
Living in Scotland I feel more affinity to the nordic states than LOndon and the Reggae thing is very much england not UK
So Ernie - I still have no answer to you you bugger. 🙂
oldmanmtb2
Free Member
Northumbrian… not English not Scottish never will be.
The border reivers would like to dispute that...🙂
If you were born in Europe , it's likely that you share a common ancestor who lived a 1000 years ago, with every other European alive today, if you're parents and grandparents were born in the same place your link to the common ancestor is only about 6 generations ago. In that sense as Europeans we don't just share some things with other Europeans, we share everything with them.
It's also fair to say that lots of white people in places like New Zealand, Australia, Canada and of course the US also share those markers, making those people close to the European family as well.
It's also fair to say that it's likely that it was folk from Central Europe who travelled over what was then Beringia from Siberia to Alaska about 15,000 years ago to finally become all the native peoples of the American Continents (apart from a few groups of Polynesian folks about 8-10 thousand years ago who came the other way) so you share some ancestry with those people to.
Which just goes to show that with whom you share common ancestry or DNA or which Haplagroup (either paternal or Maternal) or which mDNA you share, and whether your ancestors were shuffled around post Plague or via the early medieval shifts (Viking, Muslim, Turkish and Mongol expansions) that the DNA companies seem increasingly obsessed with, or whether your grandparents emigrated post-war doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Somewhere, probably in your street or in the same town as you lives some-one with who you share an ancestor that's probably closer to you that you know.
What flag you wave, in that sense, doesn't matter a hill of beans, as long as you don't think it makes you part of a special group of folk, because you aren't.
Luckily for us, over history, humans are keener on ****ing each other than they are on killing each other.
One of the great advantages of micro nationalism and identification is the wars it prevents.
History shows that the smaller the cohort of self identifying and legitimising people (countries/counties/states/city states/towns/the gang from over the canal), the less likely that fights occur.
And of course, interdependence, partic. energy interdependence, is a key factor and enabler for starting wars, so the more "local control" a group has, the less likely they are to be upset about others having "more", even if the "others" only live "over the road". History clearly shows this.
Those that suggest that subtle stings are being pulled by "dark forces" to encourage discourse about "what makes you extra special" are clearly, as history shows, wrong.
I look forward to further reinforcement of the blatant and righteous fact that only people like me are like me and, as soon as Acacia Avenue announces UDI, the better. Once we are free of the influence of Lavender Drive, the better. If they want to take part in a continental wide nuclear exchange, well that's their business. We will be sitting pretty while they and their children are turned to radioactive offal.
Also, don't forget that you have to drive all the way through Devon to get to Cornwall. End your journey early to save petrol and avoid disappointment.
Western Europe has stable democracies,
Only just, military dictatorship isn't an obscure thing on the continent as the French and Spanish know
we’re all (mostly) atheist (or at least humanist) in outlook,
Really? Ties to a church run deep in a lot of countries in Western Europe
we have similar culinary tastes etc
The UK'S national dish is chicken tikka masala, or is that just England's?
. Our economies are pretty similar, our political systems too,
That's what you get after decade's of membership of the EU
etc. We’re also geographically close.
Yes,
Half this discussion is finding things you like and associating yourself with that and othering the identity you don't like. Let's take Vikings, wonderful I descended from this great seafaring nation with warriors and craftspeople etc etc they were also very prolific slavers which drove their economy. So when you say you have Viking roots are you proud of all that it means? ( Btw the AngloSaxons, Scots, Irish also were slavers at the time)
Describing yourself as a European however does not. You are very likely to share more in common with some non-Europeans than you do with many Europeans.
I work a lot with US residents, Canadian residents and have worked with Germany residents.
In their homelands in each case.
Now this may be peculiar to the job I do, but the Germans doing the same job, save the language and their English was superb, thought in almost identical ways to me. We had a huge amount in common.
The (US) Americans were really quite different.
The Canadians somewhere in between.
That said, I’ll agree that I probably have more in common with professional, middle class, left of centre types all around the world than with some right wing working class types 10 miles up the road. I just don’t understand where they’re coming from.
The UK’S national dish is chicken tikka masala, or is that just England’s?
Its Scotlands! It was invented in a curry house in glasgow called the "Gaylord" ( or is that urban myth?) 🙂
Definitely a Glasgow dish. Not sure about which particular establishment.
And pakora, so common and tasty in Glasgow, is scarce and poor quality in Yorkshire. (Unless someone knows a good source)
If you were born in Europe , it’s likely that you share a common ancestor who lived a 1000 years ago, with every other European alive today
Surely that is only true if you are white?
What is the likelihood of that if you are black or Asian?
The other important point is that it means **** all, despite what Nick Griffin/Stephen Yaxley-Lennon/Nigel Farage might claim.
Once we are free of the influence of Lavender Drive, the better.
Those ****ers, they have it coming and no mistake
The other important point is that it means **** all, despite what Nick Griffin/Stephen Yaxley-Lennon/Nigel Farage might claim.
In the end, this. ^^^
But the argument along the way is fun, provided everyone is aware it’s just nonsense.
Surely that is only true if you are white?
Nope, If you're born in Europe regardless of what colour you are, that stat is true. Because: Maths
Nope
Well it's interesting that you think a British born Asian is likely that share a common ancestor who lived a 1000 years ago with every other European alive today, but I don't think that's true.
Or frankly relevant to the current debate concerning identity.
Edit : I'm willing to accept that I might have not understood the point you are making, especially if it involves maths...... it's early and I'm trying to get ready for a bike ride!
but I don’t think that’s true.
Oh well... Read this This is what I mean by Early Medieval Expansion. The Golden Horde controlled most if not all of Eastern Europe, more or less up to the borders of modern Italy and Germany...as recently as 700 years ago. If you think that these folk aren't related in any way to British Chinese people, I've got some magic beans to sell you.
Or frankly relevant to the current debate concerning identity.
We are all of us more closely related than most people think. Mostly separated only by a few generations.
What is the definitive identity of Europeans TJ, which marks them out differently to the rest of humanity?
I read about about this recently. It said that what we consider to be 'Western' culture or society that we consider ourselves to belong to is actually derived from what used to be called Christendom, in other words the Christian empire. This is going to get a lot of you all wound up but I don't care.
1) Before colonialism, Europe was the heartland of Christianity. This is because of the Roman Empire. So you could trace a lot of our ideas about government back to the Romans. This is pretty straightforward.
2) The book also raised some interesting points about Christianity itself. Prior to Christianity, a lot of the world was all about hierarchy. There's elites and then there's poor people, and it is your destiny as a poor person to get shat on by the elites. But a lot of what Jesus (allegedly) said was about sticking up for the little guy. Everyone was equal before God, He loves you all, and you do matter. This was highly subversive, at the time, and it's what got him killed. The authorities thought he was going to lead a revolution. But those ideas persisted of course. We have many subsequent examples of the elites trying to suppress the masses throughout history, but the masses keep trying.
Some of you will get worked up about the mere suggestion of religion here but when you boil it down, Jesus said two basic things - be nice to each other; and everyone is important. Those two ideas are the basis of social democracies, aren't they?
I read about about this recently.
Someone has read spiderman's book.
Not read the whole thread but re the comment about flags indicating a sense of nationhood. I see loads of Westmorland flags around here, more than union jacks or St George's cross, and I don't think anyone is arguing Westmorland is a nation.
Also @molgrips - Jesus may have been 'anti establishment' but Christianity has mostly been used to reinforce hierarchies rather than break them down. Divine right to rule of kings for one example.
Someone has read spiderman’s book.
Tom Holland
Jesus may have been ‘anti establishment’ but Christianity has mostly been used to reinforce hierarchies rather than break them down. Divine right to rule of kings for one example.
As discussed in the book, of course. Christianity keeps reinventing itself because elites hijack it and then every so often someone comes along and points out how bad and in Christian it is. Kings themselves might claim divine right, and stack the church with bishops to back this up but this is fundamentally at odds with Jesus and those ideas never really go away. Even after the continent becomes largely secular. You can see strong parallels with what Jesus taught, the ideas of universal human rights, and American ideals (via the founding fathers).
Note I'm making a distinction between Jesus and the Church here.
This thread has escalated 😲
No matter what you English say...Kernow bys vyken! 😜
@timbur ex Horse & Jockey staff have recently opened a new pasty shop in Helston. Can't remember what it's called but it's halfway up Coinagehall Street near the post office. H&J recipe and sizes too 👌
tjagain
Full Member
The UK’S national dish is chicken tikka masala, or is that just England’s?Its Scotlands! It was invented in a curry house in glasgow called the “Gaylord” ( or is that urban myth?) 🙂
It was invented in the Shish Mahal.
Oh well… Read this This is what I mean by Early Medieval Expansion. The Golden Horde controlled most if not all of Eastern Europe, more or less up to the borders of modern Italy and Germany…as recently as 700 years ago. If you think that these folk aren’t related in any way to British Chinese people, I’ve got some magic beans to sell you.
Thank you for your honest assessment of my gullible stupidity Nick, but I was fully aware of Genghis Khan's prolific shagging and how 8% of Asian men are descendants of his.
I still fail to understand the relevance of this with regards to how people identify themselves.
I would hope that a black person born in the UK to Nigerian parents, for example, was able to identify themselves as a South Londoner, or a Scot, or whatever the case may be, irrespective of whether or not the Mongol hordes reached the gates of Vienna.
Their DNA is irrelevant, and it is dangerous imo to suggest otherwise, despite your admirable attempt to claim that people born in Europe are mostly all related.
I personally tend not to identify myself based on where I was born. I don't know whether coming to the UK as an immigrant child plays a part in that.
For me class is far more important in terms of how I identify myself and the affinities that I feel.
For example I have been doing a lot of construction/refurb work for Andrew Lloyd Webber theatres in London recently, this has at times involved working with a labourer from Moldova.
Me and him get on extremely well and share much in common. The closeness and affinity that I feel towards him is far greater than anything I could ever feel towards Andrew Lloyd Webber.
The reason for this is class, whatever our different cultures and nationality.
I generally feel far more comfortable and relaxed in the company of working-class people (specially building workers) even if they are strangers to me, than I do in the company of upper/middle-classes.
Nationality or culture plays very little if any part. I just feel that I can be myself.
The reason for this is class, whatever our different cultures and nationality.
The reason is you work together, if sure if lloyd webber was putting in a shift ye'd get on with him too. 😆
Plenty of people in my "class" I regards as ****s. 😆
Plenty of people in my “class” I regards as ****. 😆
And someone has missed the point.
If an Irishman regards many fellow Irishmen as ****s does that mean that he can't identify as Irish?
Even if I was working working alongside Andrew Lloyd Webber I still wouldn't feel a closeness or affinity towards him.
Unless of course me and him were doing is exactly the same job for exactly the same reasons, in which case the class differences would cease to exist.
Even if I was working working alongside Andrew Lloyd Webber I still wouldn’t feel a closeness or affinity towards him.
I'm no missing the point at all, I'm just curious as to your automatic bigotry.
I wouldn't really make that judgement till I'd grafted with or had a few pints with him for a few hours, might be a sound guy. Why would you automatically dismiss people based on class?
To repeat my point, in case I didn't make it clear enough.
Let's say for the sake of this argument that I was born in the UK. There is absolutely no reason why I should identify myself with Andrew Lloyd Webber anymore than I should identify with a labourer from Moldova just because me and Andrew Lloyd Webber were born in the same country with a specific culture. HTH
ernielynch
Free MemberIf an Irishman regards many fellow Irishmen as **** does that mean that he can’t identify as Irish?
It's no up to anyone else to tell anyone what they identify as. that's a personal choice which has nothing to do with external opinion.
To repeat my point, in case I didn’t make it clear enough.
Let’s say for the sake of this argument that I was born in the UK. There is absolutely no reason why I should identify myself with Andrew Lloyd Webber anymore than I should identify with a labourer from Moldova just because me and Andrew Lloyd Webber were born in the same country with a specific culture. HTH
There's no reason for me to identify with a labourer from moldova unless I know the guy. 😆
i can still be european if I like though.
Why would you automatically dismiss people based on class?
Point out the bit where I said that I automatically dismiss people based on class.
We are talking about sense of identity.
If someone identifies themselves as a Scot does that mean they are automatically dismissing people based on their nationality?
You seem to have a dislike for andrew llyod webber unless he's on the tools.
i can still be european if I like though.
Of course you can mate, you can be whatever you like.
I was sat next to a couple of norweigens in the pub on tuesday, had a great laugh with them, were obviously a different "class" to myself, the boy was on his way to oxford to study.
Had a great laugh, wasn't really any particular class identity required for me to have an affinity with them.
Sounds as if you had a great time on Tuesday. Good for you.
Was a top night aye, comedy gig at 5, Italian grub after and tanning whisky in the pub later. 😆 Felt it on wed.
I’m from Leeds and I foremost consider myself a Yorkshireman ( I live in Cheshire). I have absolutely no affinity to Leeds. Where as I suspect that folk from Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle have a much stronger affinity to their cities than their counties.
Substitute Leeds with Mirfield and that’s me. Oddly I have other Yorkshire friends from Huddersfield and Wakefield who have also moved to Cheshire. I always identify as a Yorkshire man and some times play up to the stereotypes yet actually view nationality as silly. Walking contradiction here.
I’m cream on first. But my great grandfather who I knew well, was one of the last Cornish tin miners. He left to move to Devon for work. He was a cream on first man too. And that cream was made fresh daily by my great grandmother. He also had it on his cornflakes.
Given that the EU basically funded Cornish infrastructure, I’d consider myself European were I from them there paaaaarts.
In answer to the question, madder do ih
@ TiRed - does anyone actually say them there? I agree about the European bit but I think the general population swallowed the lines the government gave, whose predecessors sold the far south west short. It is very interesting where the funding for the Tamar bridge comes from and highlights the lack of investment from central government.
edit - the emphasis should be on the R and not the A in parts.
Shish Mahal
On Gibson Street. I remember that place well. Nice restaurant back in the day. Haven’t been there in 35 years and I think they condemned the building.
igm
Full Member
Shish MahalOn Gibson Street. I remember that place well. Nice restaurant back in the day. Haven’t been there in 35 years and I think they condemned the building.
Aye it moved to park road, just round from kelvinbridge subway next to the doublet.
Probly last in it about 7/8 years ago, was a decent curry hoose.
dunno if the original owner is still alive, quick google showing a picture of him in the new place about 2009 is as close as I can see.
edit – the emphasis should be on the R and not the A in parts.
Fair point. I used to be told off for adding R’s when I wrote at school. And yes my grandad did say them there. He was Cornish too from St Dennis but moved to Torquay as a boy.
The other half of the family are from the midlands hence the genetic diversity which led to me being doubly red haired homozygous - the Red in TiRed.
My friends moved to Cornwall in 2015.
When discussing the then upcoming vote, I was told that all the fish caught off Cornwall had to go to a central eu fish market and then sold back to Cornwall.
A trip to the nearest fishing village would have proved otherwise .
Anyway, someone earlier asked why I felt European.
After travelling around Australia I hooked up with some Aussies heading to the European mainland.
I had never been , so joined them. We had a great time and as we sat on a beach one of them said to me “ YOU are so lucky to have this”.
Having been absolutely blown away by the alps , the amazing cities an all night fiesta in Spain ,(with non stop drinking and no fights)and then to be swimming in a warm sea in October I realised , yes it was MINE and I’ve felt like that ever since.
I was told that all the fish caught off Cornwall had to go to a central eu fish market and then sold back to Cornwall.
That’s a new one! Must have originated from a UKIP/ leave campaign to stir things up amongst those that don’t known the fish would go from Newlyn or Plymouth.
Edit: https://www.inyourarea.co.uk/news/newlyn-trawlers-features-in-photo-competition/
The distribution lorry is owned by a local company as well. Can’t see European boats landing fish in the UK if that was the case also.
And pakora, so common and tasty in Glasgow, is scarce and poor quality in Yorkshire. (Unless someone knows a good source)
... I've always quite liked the Pakoras from the Kashmir Curry House in Bradford (next to the morgue)
I can remember being told to f*** off back to Ireland as a child, despite being born and spending my whole like in England so definitely not English. Guess I am a citizen of nowhere.
I find the idea of being something fascinating. Half German here. Bullied for it as a child so cannot like my half Englishness as I associate it with bullying.
I’ve always written European on everything and UK if push comes to shove. I love where I live on the Yorkshire Lancashire border and the history of the industrial revolution that’s all around. I can’t love Englishness.
No decent pakoras in Yorkshire?! Try Anands in Leeds.
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/celebs-tv/anand-sweets-remarkable-places-eat-20294733
Must be places in Bradford too surely.