[Closed] Cornish people, what nationality do you consider yourselves?

Northumbrian... not English not Scottish never will be.

You were going fine right up until the bit where you started talking about Celtic identity. 😉

Regardless of that somewhat arcane academic argument, people can, in my view, think of themselves as whatever they like. The problem is when that gets used by the uglier side of politics and nationalism and identity to drive a wedge between communities that otherwise would rub along just fine.

I quite like the odd Pasty, can I consider myself Cornish?

Tricky one this. Places all over the UK had their own languages at one point, so it's not a great differentiator of nationhood. I think this is a tricky one. At what does a national identity become a regional one and eventually just a local one or die out altogether? Who identifies as Mercian these days? Or Pictish? Both were kingdoms apparently for much longer than Wales was a single state.

Cornish...yes,  primarily

British...yes

English...not really

Cornish is a recognised UK national minority along with Welsh etc but never gets put as an option on forms, so I tick 'British' if needed generally. Can't remember what was on the Census, but think I ticked Cornish or wrote it in.

I'm not overly bothered by the whole nationality thing so although I don't really consider myself English, I'm not a fervent Cornish nationalist either. I have played it up to wind up English mates though 😉

They’re Breton surely…

(Wanders off quietly)

Im home awaiting my PCR results so Im bored as ****, and reading the thread about moving to Wales had me wondering, thats all.
The comment about an English person being made to feel uneasy in Cornwall specifically.
I have seen a video ,i think, of a surfer being told to **** off back to England, and also you never really see the St.Georges cross there, unless during sporting events where England are competing. The St.Pirans flag is much more common, in fact its everywhere, to me evidence of a national identity other than English.

Joking aside, like the Breton folk in Brittany and the Welsh, the Cornish were ethnically British, not English.

I think Northumbrians and southern Scots were also British.

Whether that means anything today is another question. Mainly and opportunity for gentle trolling I suspect.

Saw this sticker on someone's front door in St Day:

The only time I’ve experienced any form of localism surfing in Cornwall, the guy had a thick scouse accent…

but then I rarely head down to the badlands.

well yes, this is part of why I was thinking this too. The Cornish language , writtten, is very similar to Welsh, a form of which was spoken throughout mainland Britain ( i think the word Britain is derived from the Welsh word Prydain, meaning....Britain)
When spoken though, its not very similar to my ear at least.
When I was in school, we would have exchange visits with schools from Brittany, never other parts of France. A quick look shows the Bretons to be people who emigrated from Cornwall in 6th Century.

So most places in UK with place names with a Brythonic root , there is a very strong non-English identity. Not anti-English, for the most part, but just not English at all.
I was wondering if English people regard Cornwall as England ? They definitely dont regard Wales or Scotland as England, both countries which they share a border with.

*pulls pin*

Does it not depend whether you put the jam or cream on first?

*dives for cover*

The only time I’ve experienced any form of localism surfing in Cornwall, the guy had a thick scouse accent…

similarly in yorkshire, but a saarf accent. Brighton specifically. A well-known individual who has thankfully dropped out of sight (as opposed to dropping in).

Anyway, is what you consider yourself the most important thing here? I could tell you I feel pretty identified with my bit of northern england but minimally with Surrey say, whist actually thinking the whole nationality thing is bollocks. Which is fine. But from the point of view of anyone from anywhere else in the world who has dealings with me, I'll just be very very english regardless of how I self-identify.

Cornish people, what nationality do you consider yourselves?

Northumbrian… not English not Scottish never will be.

Perfect STW.

I was wondering if English people regard Cornwall as England ?

I do, but it has it's own identity that's for sure, but that's true of places like Northumbria and the Lakes for example . I'm not surprised that there's some resentment of English folk if your born and breed Cornish, the fact that most English treat it as "holiday world" has got to go a long towards that

I remember when I went to uni in the Midlands in 2000, I bought a St Piran flag to hang on my wall in halls. Made friends with a guy from Derby who had zero clue about Cornwall. He genuinely thought it was some sort of terrorist flag 😆

So Northumbrians are Northumbrians first, and Cumbrians Cumbrian first? Wow, I would never have called that, I thought pretty much all of England considered themselves English. Every day is a school day..
Happy to learn more about all this, by the way. Is it the same as how Noth Wales and South Wales are two different countries (not really, but there is a definite marked difference), but non-Welsh tend to lump them in as Wales?

Is being inbred a nationality now?

And I would say it very much matters what you consider yourself. If a person from , say, USA were to assume I was English I would politely put them straight, Im not. And I would expect the same if I had called a Canadian an American. Funny thing is, I just dont know why? Nothing wrong with being English, im just not English. I was wondering if the Cornish had this strength of feeling, or would they just go along with it?

It all a bit of a nonsense really. Everyone has their roots elsewhere...The Cornish/Celts originated form Europe before they moved into Briton and they occupied much larger swathes of Britain at one point so why wouldn't Cornish people consider themselves British or English as that is exactly where they have come from? Their heritage and culture doesn't stop at the Cornish boarder and have just as much investment in the broader nations as we know it.

England has been invaded many times over its history so we have assorts of DNA in our blood. Nobody is 100% 'Cornish' or 'Celtic' or anything else...its just a label people choose to put on themselves. The Cornish people are basically the same as most of the rest of British people.

Joking aside, like the Breton folk in Brittany and the Welsh, the Cornish were ethnically British, not English.

Last thing I read genetic studies suggested most of us are mostly British; the actual numbers of people coming from North Germany/Denmark were quite low and it was more cultural colonisation than population displacement.

Is it the same as how Noth Wales and South Wales are two different countries

I don't think that many people here see it that way although there are clear regional differences obviously.

The Cornish/Celts originated form Europe before they moved into Briton and they occupied much larger swathes of Britain at one point

Similarly current thinking is that Celts aren't actually a people, it's more of an artistic and cultural movement that spread from Europe. Similar to how countries were Romanized (after the initial conquest) or more recently how English and American styles of music, film and TV are spreading across the world today.

I like to lie around the edge of the tops of wardrobes.

I consider myself Cornice.
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.
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I must apologise.

called a Canadian an American

But they are- what continent is Canada on?

ZippyK wins.

@molgrips - so you’re suggesting the English aren’t really English either? There’s going to be some grumpy footy fans.😜

Of course the Scots aren’t British - they’re Irish. Linked ethnically with Celtic tribes from somewhere in Spain, not the Welsh Celtic tribes. And some of the Northern Irish are Scots. And then it gets confusing / confused.

#MongrelNation and better for it.

I thought pretty much all of England considered themselves English. Every day is a school day..

Dunno, I consider myself a Londoner before English, and depending on the moment either English or European. I very rarely think of myself as British.

numbers of people coming from North Germany/Denmark were quite low

Yes- I think there is very little archaeological evidence of conflict especially along the Danelaw border where it may be expected. Burials have been found that show a mix of British and Anglo & Saxon peoples similar to some Roman cemeteries with pagan & christian burials.

Is it the same as how North Wales and South Wales are two different countries......I don’t think that many people here see it that way although there are clear regional differences obviously.

Probably goes back to the industrialisation of the South, where English & Scots (and some Italians) went for work mixing with Welsh from the North. Before that Flemish migrants were encouraged to settle as far as Pembrokeshire post Norman conquest in an attempt to control the land from the natives.
The number of English placenames is a giveaway.

English aren’t really English either? There’s going to be some grumpy footy fans

Best not let them know where those 3 lions come from either. And they're waving Genoa's flag.

Nationality / identity is all a bit subjective and divisive. Ultimately it segregates and excludes those who are not like you.

In the Venn-diagram of where you belong, its basically just planet Earth.

I think if you're talking Celtic and you're referring to the Hallstatt culture of central Europe, or Le Tene culture that followed you're on pretty safe ground. The very best you could attribute to Cornish folk is probably " extent of Hallstatt influence"

IMO

extent of Hallstatt influence

you mean pasties and jam on first and, er, er, doc martin, and all those other rich cultural signifiers?

Just looked up how many people speak Cornish:

Wikipedia:
In 2017 the ONS released data based on the 2011 Census which placed the number of speakers at 557 people in England and Wales declared Cornish to be their main language, 464 of whom lived in Cornwall.

So basically, that's probably less than the number of STW forum riders on fully ridged singlspeeds its so niche.

I reckon in the US you will find that many speaking Klingon at the Comicon event.

So to the English (or any of the home nations) people who consider themselves European over British, can I ask why that is? Genuinely curious, not trying to wind anyone up,I dont know or know of anyone in these parts who consider themselves European over their birth nationality.

You were going fine right up until the bit where you started talking about Celtic identity.

Indeed. Celtic identity was more or less made-up in the 19th century to buttress various forms of nationalism. There is virtually no evidence that there was ever any unified Celtic identity or culture (a 'people') in pre-history.

Celtic identity was more or less made-up in the 19th century to buttress various forms of nationalism

Or possibly for tourism purposes in the case of Wales.

But they are in the grand scheme of things...Cornwall is in Europe after all, so why not? How you identify says everything about one, while at the same time being mostly meaningless on a day to day basis (unless you're an actively persecuted minority of course)

You could identify as left handed or brown haired or Jedi or any number of things really from the relative safety of the UK

or culture (a ‘people’) in pre-history.

There very much is a Celtic people for instance; Hallstatt and La Tene are just two identified cultures that are very clearly Celtic that you could very easily describe as having a unified art and language. How far that influenced people in Britain and Ireland at the time is up for debate though.

I think it's also fair to say, those folk wouldn't identify themselves as Celtic

Celtic {insert nation here} identity was more or less made-up in the 19th century{insert time here} to buttress various forms of nationalism

It's always been the way, it's just another form of 'them and us' which appeals to our most basic "this is our bit of jungle*, so bugger off" instincts.

*Well, east African plain, but that doesn't scan as well.

and also you never really see the St.Georges cross there, unless during sporting events where England are competing. The St.Pirans flag is much more common, in fact its everywhere, to me evidence of a national identity other than English.

In deepest darkest East Lancashire guess what, you don't tend to see a English flag unless there is a sporting event on

Flagshagging our county flag isn't much in vogue either except at the really good pie chippy

English identity seems to be defined by anti brigade more than anything else, yet England is the most diverse of the UK countries and that includes the outlying counties such as Cornwall with their lack of diversity

Interesting one this, I’m from Leeds and I foremost consider myself a Yorkshireman ( I live in Cheshire). I have absolutely no affinity to Leeds. Where as I suspect that folk from Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle have a much stronger affinity to their cities than their counties.

They definitely dont regard Wales or Scotland as England, both countries which they share a border with.

Actually england / UK / GB are continually conflated - people say one when they mean another. Happens on here all the time

Yes, I'm guilty of that. I blame my parents and the iterant life of a forces brat. I say England all the time when I mean the UK

You also get it the other way round when people say UK when they mean england 🙂

National identity is often a bit confusing worldwide but the make up of the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland means its confusing to many of us.

take me: "I am a brit of english descent but scotland is my home" thats a very clumsy thing to say but I am neither a scot (ethnically) nor do I consider myself english

I suppose I'm English but choose to identify as Chinese. That's the way it works these days isn't it?

Has anyone got a definition of English, or British ?

There is virtually no evidence that there was ever any unified Celtic identity or culture (a ‘people’) in pre-history.

As I understand it, the link between these peoples is the artwork they left behind, which is all very similar - what you would expect if people had spread across Europe. Which is what led to assumptions that Celts were a race of people from central Europe. But now we think that the artistic style spread without mass human migration.

Yeah it get's a bit wild. I know a guy who's 2nd gen immigrant to Texas, his parents are Vietnamese, but By God he's from Texas!!

With the "celts" IIRC the welsh and the scots "celts" are actually very different genetically - ie no genetic evidence of them being the same peoples.

all nations are a bit of a mix but the UK is particularly so with successive invasions from different directions ie saxons, angles, normans invading from the south, vikings from the north and east

I have had my DNA tested and on one side of the family I share 2/3 of my genes with the sami people of lapland - not vikings. I assume when the tribe that became the Sami moved north across europe a branch split off and ended up in the welsh boarders while most of them carried on north

More recent genetic markers were the usual mix of danes, germans and vikings. My dad however ( and i am his son !) looks like a pure bred viking and also has dupuytrens contracture which is a relatively recent genetic mutation that only occurs in people with viking genes as its there it originated.

The modern british person is really a mongrel made up of a huge amount of genetic mixing

Celtic {insert nation here} identity was more or less made-up in the 19th century{insert time here} to buttress various forms of nationalism

Borders tend to be there to benefit the rich and powerful (who on a personal basis ignore them) at the expense of the rest of them. From tax collection, to organising military forces to fight for their interests, borders are there to keep the proles (literally) in their places.

I grew up in that part of the world in a very rural area. Generally I've found that the true locals (such as farmers with families that have been there for ever) are very welcoming and tolerant. Whereas some people who have moved there more recently think they own the place, more Cornish than the Cornish, and more likely to get on their high horse about how it's a separate nation.

Whereas some people who have moved there more recently think they own the place,

My stepdaughter moved from Doncaster to Bude in August (can’t blame her but I wouldn’t have gone to Cornwall) & within 6 weeks she was saying she was sick of the tourists!
I told her to get used to it.

I was wondering if English people regard Cornwall as England ? They definitely dont regard Wales or Scotland as England, both countries which they share a border with.

Speaking as someone who lives in England, more specifically Wessex, and has family connections locally going back to the mid 18th Century, I’ve always thought of Cornwall as a separate entity, it was never part of the first unified kingdom under one king, Alfred the Great, and it’s clearly got its own identity and language, which I’m very glad to see is gradually making a comeback.

Yellow ice-cream, thats just wrong 😕

Whilst I'm Scottish and proud of where I'm from and live I don't think the cornish thing is that uncommon. Don't Manx see themselves as such and not English. My Inlaws are from Bangor in North wales and there seems to be a massive North / South welsh thing. The north always seems bitter that the south predominately don't speak the language.
Changing things slightly when It comes to International football and the FA tried to move England games around the country ticket sales were slower the further north they went as people felt detached from the national team.

I suppose I’m English but choose to identify as Chinese. That’s the way it works these days isn’t it?

Nope! We all descendant the land known as China do not see it that way.

You can only be one of this ...

Chinese elite marxist or Chinese bot farmer or Real normal always on the run Chinese?

the first unified kingdom under one king, Alfred the Great

Alfred? Jonny come lately.

Fergus the Great is where it’s at with the united Celtic kingdoms around 300 years earlier.

it was never part of the first unified kingdom under one king, Alfred the Great

I think you find it was Aethelstan

You may also want to consider the treaty of Eamont Bridge

So to the English (or any of the home nations) people who consider themselves European over British, can I ask why that is?

After living over half my life outside the UK it's become pretty obvious that my values are pretty much the same as any similarly educated European. Ignore the language differences and the UK at large is much, much closer culturally to the rest of Europe than it is to anywhere else, including the US. Southeast England* definitely has an identity (and London even more so), but does Britain? So basically I think "Britain" is a just a subset of a larger entity, Europe, and while I'm legally obliged to carry a British passport tbh it just seems a bit silly in this day and age.

* I'm sure the same could be said of Scotland, or the Northeast, or Cornwall, I'm not saying for a second that this is a London thing!

So to the English (or any of the home nations) people who consider themselves European over British, can I ask why that is?

Had for me to explain how I feel about this

I hold no affinity to the political entity that is Great Britain. I do not think it serves its people well. The UK government foes not represent me and I abhor its actions.

But English is where my family came from for many generations. Scotland is my home. I am a european. I feel allegiance to Scotland and Europe but not to GB but I cannot deny my heritage

Of course the Scots aren’t British – they’re Irish. Linked ethnically with Celtic tribes from somewhere in Spain, not the Welsh Celtic tribes. And some of the Northern Irish are Scots. And then it gets confusing / confused.

The Scots, as in the tribe of that name, were Irish but here in the south Cumbric was the language and Cumbric was related to Welsh

In response to @footflaps you need to have an allegiance to a particular bakery as well, otherwise you're just visiting. 😉

Cornishman living in Wales, still mourning Horse & Jockey, Tinners aren't bad, Philps will suffice and at least they post.

I am a european

What is the definitive identity of Europeans TJ, which marks them out differently to the rest of humanity?

Why do you feel a stronger affinity with someone from say Estonia than you do with someone from Ontario?

Language? Politics? Culture? What?

Good question and one I do not know the answer to

I guess its cultural affinity / nearness / the fact I have visited and got friends in most european countries?

dunno tho. I will ponder and post again if I get a good answer!

Is it perhaps because you have been told to consider yourself as European?

What is the definitive identity of Europeans TJ, which marks them out differently to the rest of humanity?

Not TJ, but my answer: shared history and shared culture. Western Europe has stable democracies, we're all (mostly) atheist (or at least humanist) in outlook, we have similar culinary tastes etc. Our economies are pretty similar, our political systems too, etc. We're also geographically close.

I think you find it was Aethelstan

Indeed but Egbert did for the Cornish.

Is it perhaps because you have been told to consider yourself as European

Lolz - told to? who by? thats really not it. do I seem like the kind of person that does what he is told?

Cultural affinity and geographic location is as close as I can come to.

England = Perfidious Albion
British = Empire (good old days)
United Kingdom = Un United Kingdom.

Not TJ, but my answer: shared history and shared culture. Western Europe has stable democracies, we’re all (mostly) atheist (or at least humanist) in outlook, we have similar culinary tastes etc. Our economies are pretty similar, our political systems too, etc. We’re also geographically close.

TJ didn't specify Western European. But anyway how do those above points not also apply Ontario?

And as for geographic closeness do you feel that people living in Alaska should feel a greater affinity to Russia than the UK?

I can understand TJ feeling an affinity and closeness with Scotland, despite being English, but I don't understand why he feels a greater affinity and closeness with Estonia than he does with Ontario.

Cultural affinity

What cultural affinity do you have with someone from Estonia TJ?

Personally I feel a far greater cultural affinity with someone from Jamaica than I do with someone from Estonia.

And Jamaica is a very long way from Europe.

TJ didn’t specify Western European. But anyway how do those above points not also apply Ontario?

Yeah, but the point is inclusive not exclusive - Australians and Canadians are probably pretty close culturally to Europe, too. Why is someone from London and Glasgow or Cardiff part of the same "national identity" while the Canadians aren't?

Why are someone from London and Glasgow or Cardiff part of the same “national identity” while the Canadians aren’t?

Geography

#MongrelNation and better for it.

100% this. I just wish more people here right now could see that.

I always find it interesting though, that people (generalisation) seem to conflate nationalism/regionalism with cultural heritage. In terms of recent genetics, I'm half English, half Scots. In terms of current geo-politics I'm British/English. Personally though, I feel a quite specific combination of Fens and Fife (so maybe with tongue in cheek Norse/Pictish in the context of this thread) due to the cultural influences on me as I grew up, but that is a cultural identity and quite distinct from anything political or national.

In my ideal world, we'd ditch borders and nations and just celebrate our distinct cultures and shared humanity.

Geography

OK, so we draw a line from the Severn to the Humber, and we're done? North and they're not European, south and they are?

OK, so we draw a line from the Severn to the Humber, and we’re done? North and they’re not European, south and they are?

Why would you think that a sensible division

Why would you think that a sensible division

It wasn't supposed to be serious.

Go on then, what's a sensible division then? Mine is western Europe, for the reasons explained above. I'll allow that Australia and Canada should probably be included, too. And maybe Uruguay and Japan. But then geography was only one factor, there are clearly others.

a sensible division then

A sensible division is nation states as primarily defined by their geography, whether it be by
the sea, mountain ranges or rivers.

Why would you think that a sensible division

Why the need for division?

I can understand someone claiming to be Scots, or British, or English, or South Londoner (I don't consider myself simply a Londoner) it does after all help to identify who you are.

Describing yourself as a European however does not. You are very likely to share more in common with some non-Europeans than you do with many Europeans.

Apart from specifying which vague area of the planet you come from it provides no useful information.

About as useful as claiming that you are a Northern Hemispherian, imo.