[Closed] controlled infant crying - bad experiences please

Dummy?

my pervy little brov was a PITA until mum gave him one....

As always every kid is different, and all kids react differently and have different things that push their buttons.

Personally I think 67 minutes is too long.

We tried a half way house approach. We would allow Jnr FD to cry for 20 mins, then if he didnt stop go back to him, calm him down, and then leave again. This could take 3-4 attempts but generally on the last the crying would stop after 10 mins or so and he would be asleep.

I finally caved after about 67 minutes and gave him a cuddle

Whoah!

Controlled crying is NOT simply leaving them to it. This is really bad for your kid. Imagine if you were scared, lonely and afraid of this crazy new world that's forcing itself into your brain, and you started to panic.. and you knew your only source of comfort and love, the thing you depend on for your whole existence was just downstairs but it ignored you.

What you're meant to do is wean them off the constant cuddling etc. So stand by the bed (if you're trying to get him to nap) give a few minutes cuddle and telling him it's bedtime, then put him down. Come back a few minutes later, pick him up and do it again. Or rub his back or something when he's in bed. But keep coming back - otherwise bed turns into an emotional torture chamber he'll be terrified of.

Back rubbing whilst in bed works for our kid who sounds similar, but she is 11mo now.

Some kids just need constant reassurance. Consider some kind of sling where you can wear them - but on your back, cos you can't get anything done with them on your front!

Don't think there's much you can do Yunki, some babies are like that.

Patience and love, nothing else works in my experience.

I'm not a huge fan of controlled crying, I know that many are but babies need attention and love, thats why they cry.

All the best, my eldest was pretty mental so I know how you're feeling.

IMO controlled crying is cruel. Kids need love and security.

Some friends did the 'controlled crying' with their babies. Now as 3-5 years old the kids are appear emotionally distant and lack the ability to express themselves. Their parents feel they don't have a close bond with their kids. Maybe, just maybe the kids are thinking screw you, you left me to cry night after night.

When we did controlled crying with micromtbfixlette we would return to her after 5 mins, then 10, then 20, etc. they have to know that they have not been abandoned. This took about a week and the mrs. hated me for it is she could not stand leaving her to cry but it settled in and she s pretty easy after that. There is probably all sorts of useful advice over on Mumsnet.

so with him at playgroup this morning I have just spent the last hour trying to let the shrieking maniac cry himself out

Personally I don't think this is the way to do it. we did it with William when he got to 18 months, as he wouldn't go down when he woke up in the night. we went in every 2 minutes to tell him it was OK and we were still there, slowly built up the time he was left for. took about 3 hours the first night, 1 the second, sorted on the third

leaving a baby to cry for an hour without reassuring him is no way controlled crying, all he wants is a bit of reassurance IMO

things that work for us:
teach him to suck his thumb?
baby bouncer?
rocking/ gliding chair?
get him to go to sleep in the pitch black?
be relaxed and gentle with him - if either of us are tired/ stressed/ impatient it seems to make him worse so the other takes over.

Whoah!

what you're describing there is a gradual retreat technique Mol.. NOT controlled crying..

I think that maybe you're onto something though and it may well be worth us backpedalling a little and adopting a slightly more softly softly approach for a bit..

leaving a baby to cry for an hour without reassuring him is no way controlled crying

I don't think at any point I said I had abandoned him..! you have an over active imagination there 😆

"teach him to suck his thumb?"

Apparently that is worse for their teath than using a dummy... and harder to stop... unless you cut their thumb off 😈

"what you're describing there is a gradual retreat technique Mol.. NOT controlled crying.."

No thats what most people call controlled crying. There is nothing controlled about leaving your child to cry for over 1 hour as stated above .... sorry

😆

again.. you're filling in the gaps to make the story fit your fantasy..

[url]= http://www.supernanny.co.uk/Advice/-/Health-and-Development/-/0-to-4-years/Sleep-problems-~-when-controlled-crying-does n't-work.aspx]controlled crying[/url]

IMO Always pick up baby and sort out the reason for the crying (when crying properly) and cuddle. Pop them back down when they stop crying (repeat as many times as necessary*). Also withdraw contact gradually, from cuddle to lying with hand on tummy, to finger, to sitting next to them, to leaving the room.

*Occasionally give up (when n > 100) and let them sleep on you.

It will get better but if you have to stay with them all night then that's what you'll have to do.
We t in to my 3yo the other night to ask her if she needed a wee. She said "go away now daddy, I want to go to sleep now". That brought ba k so many memories of lost nights that I could have cried myself!

ok..

so then parenting gurus..

during the day.. what do we actually do about the screaming..?
If he screams for attention we pick him up..?

and hold him all day..?
with a sling or whatever..?

You might just have a kid who can't be put down. Some kids are like that. Sorry. No idea why, but they just seem to need that reassurance more than other kids.

Rose was like it until about 8 months or so. Even daytime naps she wouldn't take except if moving in the pushchair, or on the sling on someone. I took her for 5am runs in her pram, big long walks in the sling etc. I remember the first time she went down for a nap in the cot really clearly, it was just after 8 months old, I didn't really know what to do with myself!

It was a pain in some ways, but if you use a sling, it makes life a million times easier. We used a wrap sling (Moby Wrap) when she was little, and got something more structured (a 'connecta integra') once she got too wriggly at about 6 months I think. Once you get used to the sling, you can do everything with the kid in it. I've washed up with her in it, gone to the loo, cooked dinner etc. It is also very snuggly, lots of time being really close, building up a bond with your kid, which is not to be sniffed at (although I'd have preferred if less of it was at 5am in the morning!).

The good news is, that it means nothing about how they'll be later on in life - from when Rose learnt to crawl, she's always been really independent, if anything more so than other kids her age. It kind of feels like she was just waiting to be able to go places on her own, and until then, she was continually annoyed by the fact that she was unable to take herself to look at the shiny things.

Joe

I could sort this out easily yuki but in the interest of levelling out karma between us won't intervene here.
as you were.. 😉

and hold him all day..?
with a sling or whatever..?

http://www.thebabasling.com/products/baby-slings.html?gclid=CJOm7qOwjLECFUYntAodjVQFFA

he's not doing itdeliberately to piss you off y'know!

love you too GW....x 😀

you want me to carry [i]this[/i] around in a sling all day..!!!?
I think health and safety would have something to say about that.. I can hear the local chiropractors rubbing their hands in glee already..

[img] [/img]

"teach him to suck his thumb?"

Apparently that is worse for their teath than using a dummy.

he doesn't have any teeth 😀

Oh yeah, and whatever you do now, ignore the people who say "you're building a rod for your own backs" if you 'give in to the baby' all the time (or similar things people say if you do controlled crying) - there are arguments either way about what effect it'll have in the long term*, but probably it makes next to no difference long term and you might as well just ride it out whichever way is easiest for you to get through. We did the cuddling with the sling thing, and now Rose rarely wakes up before 7am, and goes to bed at a sensible time usually (between 7 and 8), and is very good about daytime naps.

Joe

* some people say that babies who are held too much get too clingy, whereas others say that babies who do controlled crying are emotionally troubled and don't sleep well later on - my guess is that both are wrong, as I know various people who've done both methods and there seems no logic about who ends up with a good sleeping toddler.

I think the OPs first line is the most concerning.

I want to post a youtube clip with a troubled child sleeping suggestion but it won't let me. Done exactly what the forum help tells me to do 😥

I'm crying now so you've got two on your hands

Yunki - if you are going to go down the controlled cryin route that you describe - you need to stick to your guns. No caving in after 67 minutes. I did that with my eldest and he has no problems sharing his emotions or expressing himself - he is a bit mental though.

Good luck.

It's a fine line between abandoning the child when they need you and teaching them that they can get attention or you to do what they want by going bonkers.

Generally - make sure they are ok (ie: nappy, wind, feed, thirst, not ill etc). I think babies are fairly tough and after the first one, you learn as a parent that they are not super fragile/needy. The only way we could get ours to sleep right through was to go through 3 nights of leaving them going bonkers and after that they learnt we wouldn't come running and have been generally ok ever since. A dummy can help, but then you'll have to go through dummy withdrawal at some point later.

at 3 months i was regularly perfecting my dad dancing round the living room to Radiohead until baby scaled was asleep then i'd put her on my chest and collapse on the sofa and let her sleep there for the night!

I don't think at any point I said I had abandoned him..!

He might not realise that though....

I have a book called 'Inside your child's brain' which sounds like it's going to be another crappy child manual but it's actually a propery neurology book written by academics (who have their own kids too) - quite sciency (which I like) but flippin interesting, and all derived from published studies. It talks about kids being high or low responders, which means how sensitive they are to things being good or bad. Sounds as if yours is a high responder, like our second. They say that high responders are very sensitive to the quality and closeness of the bond between them and their parents, and this can affect the emotional and psychological problems they might suffer in later life.

Basically if they get loads of support and reassurance, they tend to grow up able to deal with their emotions. If they don't, it can affect their ability to deal with life which as you can imagine can lead to all sorts of negative emotions.

I would recommend any parent to read it.

Gin.

I think the OPs first line is the most concerning.

I think the OPs first line is the most amusing, it's certainly a lot less insulting than some of the things* I've called my son (2.5) and daughter (11 months over the years!

* Obviously under my breath, rather than out loud. Esp. if they're in earshot.

The child is 3 months old and just wants comforting.
Get a sling and carrying them around while you need to do stuff (Not on the turbo in the garage though)

Controlled crying is for much further down the line. They don't learn habits at 3 months old

And give it a dummy if it wants it.

As with all parenting advice and tips, all IMO and no two young 'uns are the same.

He's only 4 months old, MTFU and pick the poor sod up. If you have to carry him around for the next few months.

The only way we could get ours to sleep right through was to go through 3 nights of leaving them going bonkers and after that they learnt we wouldn't come running and have been generally ok ever since

Therein lies the dividing line. There is no way I would do that to my children. 'The Molly Method' whatever you want to call it is fine, but just leaving them... couldn't do it.

For the record

No. 1 seemed a nightmare, but on reflection was just a normal baby - 1st is always tough.

No. 2 an absolute dream as a baby, has grown into a temper nightmare

No 3 nightmare from birth, still not sleeping as long as I'd like (i.e. past 05:30) @ 2 years.

All treated the same as far as I can tell, there are no rules, only opinions and instinct if you ask me.

It's the voices in their heads that make them mental at that age 🙄

My youngest was 5 weeks early, so spent the first couple of weeks in intensive care, then spent more than his first year suffering with both colic and reflux. You have my sympathies - it is a very difficult thing to go through as a parent. Yes, they want comforting, but at the same time don't want to be held.

He seems to be over this now, and is a lovely 20 month old toddler. Doesn't stop smiling and laughing. We are reaping the rewards now.

I agree with the dummy comment - if a kid wants a dummy let him have one. Our first child had one - got to 2 and a half and we told hi that Father Christmas needed to take it to recycle for toys - he just handed it straight over and never wanted it again. Youngest never wanted one.

I feel your pain.

No.1 didn't sleep at all for 18months but will now sleep for his country.

No.2 better but still insists on waking the house at 5:30am, (little cow)

No.3 n/a as I've been taken off the grid

Nothing works, they'll sleep when they want to and there's **** all you can do about it.

'The Molly Method' whatever you want to call it is fine, but just leaving them... couldn't do it.

Yeah I should stress that we are doing this at 10-11mo not 3-4mo. At that age we just dealt with it. She was sleeping a lot though which was the only thing that saved the situation. In as much as it was saved at all.. I mean the kid's alive but Mrs Grips barely is after a year of crap sleep.

I don't think that clearing off and leaving them for 67 mins is controlled crying - sounds more like abandonment.

What worked for us - let her cry for 2 mins, pick up and cuddle, then 5 mins, then 10 mins, then repeat every 10-15 mins.
(pretty much what Supernanny suggests)

It works, but you have to be strict - one good tip is don't make eye contact - babies will be looking for a reaction from you, and if they smile/laugh you'll find it difficult not to smile back.

The whole idea behind it is for you to take and maintain control of the situation, while still offering comfort and security to the child.

However - if he is a constant moaner/screamer there might be more to it - we had big issues with our first, turned out all the misery was due to milk intolerance, the week we switched to Infasoy it all stopped. (don't **** about with their diet without speaking to a doctor first though)

If he screams for attention we pick him up..?

It works, but you have to be strict - one good tip is don't make eye contact

Not sure about that. Surely it's not much reassurance if you don't acknowledge them? Eye contact in this house.

Lot of experts in here eh?

A lot of people who've tried a lot of things with multiple kids. Experience, I guess you'd call it.

No need for cynicism - good sharing of experiences so far.

aaah, you guys

Lot of experts in here eh?

I bumped into a girl who works with my mother recently.. (they are occupational therapists)
The girl had given birth to her first child a month beforehand, I asked how the baby was sleeping, like you do..

her response was that the baby was sleeping through the night..
apparently leaving it to cry outside of timed feeds had been tough for the first week but everything was fine and dandy now.. 😯

that's just the traditional way in their family.. just goes to show that it's all relative I guess

The girl had given birth to her first child a month beforehand, I asked how the baby was sleeping, like you do..

her response was that the baby was sleeping through the night.

Hehee.. lots of kids start sleeping through very early on, then somehow lose the habit when they start being aware of the fact that they're alone in the dark... watch the smug grin dissolve from those parents' faces 🙂

I think the OPs first line is the most concerning.

That's a bit of a worry, I would suspect that the dingo comment would indicate a bigger threat to the lads health than the name calling, but it takes all sorts.. 🙂

I don't think that clearing off and leaving them for 67 mins is controlled crying

again, you have created that scenario in your head.. 😆

watch the smug grin dissolve

yeah.. we used to be quite envious of a couple we knew who worshipped the teachings of Gina Forde.. we were too soft for that kind of regime but their kid handled like an absolute dream..

not so much now that he's a toddler with a baby brother.. he's properly badly behaved..
I don't gloat at others misfortune, but it just proves that with kids, nothing is certain..

(except strife 😀 )

Can't leave my kids crying, never could. If they're crying, something's up = give them a cuddle.

Our first one was a nightmare baby. Hardly ever slept more than 2-3 hours at a time for the first 18 months.
Would cry like he was on a skewer, for hours at a time. The only thing that worked was to carry him up and down the stairs. Each time I stopped or walked on the flat he'd start crying again.
Really really hard work.

But we've got past that and he's great and the second one was a lot easier.

26 minutes, was our cut off. "Babies can cry for 26min for no reason" was our midwife's comment.

Is it colic or hunger?
Son1 cried and cried and cried and screamed and... Never slept more than about 90min. Turned out he was hungry 😳
Son2 recieved supplementary bottled milk before going to bed. Slept through the night from three weeks.

They are all different. They all turn out OK in the end.

i think it depends a lot on whether the parents expect the child to fit in with their lifestyle or whether they are prepared for disruption as the the new member adjusts to being alive.

again, you have created that scenario in your head

It is pretty much how I read it as well - having gone back several times to see what that quote was all about. You have presented the information in a way many of us are interpreting it - so clarify your point rather than telling us we're reading it incorrectly.

I still think you are being overly harsh on the kid at such a young age.

god damn it why did i start reading this thread! Our first is due in three weeks arghhhhh! (runs around the room panicking!)

😯

I haven't read the rest of the thread but that sounds a lot like our first.
On a good day the missus would be waiting at the front window for me to get home from work, on a bad day she'd be waiting on the drive to hand him over! Luckily we didn't have another child to worry about at that time.

The sad truth is that he had to grow out of it, he got a lot better when he could crawl and walk and general destroy the house under his own steam.

oh and very sadly I found that the Wurzels was the best music to jiggle him off to sleep to....... 5 years on and I can still remember the lyrics to the Blackbird song.

5 years on and I can still remember the lyrics to the Blackbird song.

awesome.. I've seen them live a few times.. 😆

i think it depends a lot on whether the parents expect the child to fit in with their lifestyle or whether they are prepared for disruption as the the new member adjusts to being alive.

There's disruption, and there's being so sleep deprived you can't function, drive safely, look after other kids etc etc.

I think that my wife would be extremely angry with you if you suggested she was just experiencing lifestyle issues.

our little un is now just over 2, we had a few bad weeks when she was about 9 months, we were dead against controlled crying.

one night we were so knackered we just let her cry and cry.... she finally wnet off to sleep and was fine in the morning. we got to the point where we'd sneak in try and calm her down, make sure nappy wasnt wet/dirty put her back down then just, well... left her to cry it out.

some may slate us for doing that but i dont care a she is going great guns and the clinic say she is fine.

ours never had a dummy, we tried it a few times but then just didnt bother and it didnt seem to bother her.

in our experience the first 6 months were by far the easiest, but looking back we have had a dream child (so far)compared to friends!

only advice i'd give is dont read any of the books or go onto the web, ignorance is bliss to a certain point, how the hell do people think they coped years ago!

nothing wrong with this nutter...

[img] [/img]

There's disruption, and there's being so sleep deprived you can't function, drive safely, look after other kids etc etc.

yep, i know that one. the only way we managed to deal with it was to go to bed at the same time as the kids for a while. disrupted sleep over 12 hours was a whole lot better than over 6 hours.

I think that my wife would be extremely angry with you if you suggested she was just experiencing lifestyle issues.

i don't think i suggested that to be fair. I do think [i]some[/i] parents attempt to train their newborns into behaving in a way that benefits the parents more than the child. I have no idea whether that applies to you or not.

I'm desperate to know how you can prepare for the disruption of only 3 hours of broken sleep. Every day. For 300 days. We have been lucky so far, but there are loads of parents trying to live in that scenario. Hopefully not you Mashiehood 😉 Remember reading mf saying his girls hadn't slept through for 2.5 years. I remain incredulous as to how you can function like that, you have my respect rather than my judgement.

I remember when my eldest started sleeping through after 1.5 years and realising that I'd been tired all that time.

Prepares you very well for doing night laps at Mountain Mayhem 😉

you want me to carry this around in a sling all day..!!!?

In the style of STW valves/logos/fence needs painting, that dude's nappy needs changing. There must be a gallon in there!!

Good luck though - I never had this bother with our two but my missus is angling for a third so I'm not smug yet.

you want me to carry this around in a sling all day..!!!?

In the style of Crocodile Dundee - that is not a big baby!

A friend had a similar problem last year & his wife's pilates instructor suggetsed they go & see an osteopath who specialises in infants/children. After just a few sessions the crying stopped & the osteo explained that some babies suffer discomfort as the plates that make up the skull are squashed & pushed around all over the place during birth but can take a while to settle back down again. This can be a painful process. Cranial massage to help everything back can be the answer & seemed like a miracle cure to them.

Apparently, colic can be dealt with in the same way for many babies too.

Might be worth a call/consultation.

A friend had a similar problem last year & his wife's pilates instructor suggetsed they go & see an osteopath who specialises in infants/children. After just a few sessions the crying stopped & the osteo explained that some babies suffer discomfort as the plates that make up the skull are squashed & pushed around all over the place during birth but can take a while to settle back down again. This can be a painful process. Cranial massage to help everything back can be the answer & seemed like a miracle cure to them.

We did the same but at a Chiropractor. Instant Colic cure in no.1 and we did no.2 as well. Both slept through the night within days of the treatments... poor little toots had been in pain/discomfort when awake and not distracted.

Odd shape of no.1's head was spotted by the Chiro and wife was diagnosed with a twisted pelvis... which had been "diagnosed" by normal doctors as a back problem which was treated with painkillers and "back re-hab" classes for years. Also informed that birth was never going to be natural because of the twist... all sorted before no.2 who's head was a normal shape.

Could just be timing or emperors new clothes etc but it seemed to work well at the time.

Blimey can't get mine to wake up!!
Ok they are teenagers.

We read everything going on what to do before they arrived. In the end we just cuddled them, slept with them and them with us. Youngest was in with us longest, came into our bed in the early hours until he was 7. First was happy to lie/sit in his cot and eventually fall to sleep,

Cannot claim that this has had an effect on them now but they are both warm and loving, not afraid to cuddle either me or MrsCat.

Best advice is do what feels right to you, you will be more comfortable, less anxious - kids pick up on how you are feeling.

my second of 3 had bad colic till 4 months old, screamed when awake, didn't sleep much....pick them up, and give them a cuddle, what's wrong with cuddles? where has this idea come from that cuddles are bad? kids cry because its their only way of communicating, they don't begin to talk right away y'know. if you don't pick them up it only teaches them that their needs aren't being met, that's why they eventually stop, read a book called the continuum concept

think it depends a lot on whether the parents expect the child to fit in with their lifestyle or whether they are prepared for disruption as the the new member adjusts to being alive.

and which way is correct..?
do we raise our kids to be familiar with everything going the way that they demand or do we raise them to adapt to those around them..?

the first two years being the most formative and all that..

FWIW, mrs yunki falls into the force the kid to adapt camp, where as I am a card carrying, sandal wearing, yoghurt weaving, mystic peacenik and believe in letting the child develop in the most nurturing environment possible.. sacrificing everything to give them the best start in life.. perhaps this is partly why I stay at home and raise the kids, while mrs yunki goes out to work to provide for the family..

still... there has to come a point where compromises have to made, for the families sake.. a 2 foot long shrieking tyrant with a very egocentric agenda can only be allowed so much power and responsibility before sense has to prevail..

thanks for all the advice though.. I think that perhaps with all the sleep deprivation, and stress, and the guilt at imposing this situation on my older son, I may have perhaps been taking a slightly more clinical approach than felt natural.. compounding the problem to a degree..
my kids get more affection from their father than the majority I'll wager, and our bond is pretty intense.. so I'll not lose any sleep over those misguided judgements.. we're discussing breaking bad habits here, not emotional neglect.. 8)

The issue with all the parents giving advice is that the ones who think they have it sussed (me) have had it the easiest. Both my kids have slept through the night since they were seven weeks old, and although it might be fantastic parenting by us, it's probably just good old luck.

We have used what I thought was controlled crying at certain stages, although its in no way scientific and more common sense. The latest issue was six months ago when we moved back into this house.

The youngest, who had just turned two, decided he wasn't going to bed, and would cry at his door, we had a few nights of cuddles and shushing, before going back to the old check after five minutes, then a further ten, then a further twenty and keep doubling lark, I think this lasted two nights before he decided that he rather just go to kip and has been fine against since.

[b]You need to just do this your own way, and nobody else's. [/b]

I were just venting really paulosaxo..

but damn these dadsnet threads always get a bit tetchy..
I should have known better really.. 😳

like my mum says.. there's not much more or better you can do than just loving them..