[Closed] Contesting unreasonable retention of rental bond/deposit?

Well Indunno about the rules in scotland about dps or small claims butif they keep it you should sue the cheapest way possible.
If it was dps then you should have details of where its protected?
Have they got a visual record of the condition, agreed/signed by you on moving in? If not then they cannot prove shit so in my opinion you win.
[url= http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/Housing/privaterent/government/SGTD1 ]scottish dps here[/url]

They're taking the piss IMO. I'd do gardening work in a flash if it paid £19 an hour. I take it you've already paid your last month's rent?

I would ask to visit the property with whoever is making the claim.

Offer to get the work done yourself (especially paint the door frame), ask for specifics as to what is wrong - not what they want to do about it.

Do you have move in photos? If they don't then it's time to read what was written in the official inventory. If it's an agent try the ombudsman's site to see what is current best practice.

my advice is to never pay the last bit of rent to the value of your bond as i got shafted so many times this was the only way to make sure they did not keep it.

I am sure many landlords are sound but i was never prepared to risk it

I guess without pictures and inventory this will be difficult but i wish you luck

In fact mate if you read that link it appears that unless they have protected your deposit then they are donald ducked. If they have then you should have all the info about where it is protected, you can then contest it through the protection scheme. If it is anything like england, then its always in the tenants favour.

So can you tell us when you moved in?

I thought they could only withhold for stuff that is not classed as normal wear & tear. So in the example of the door frame, a small chip would be considered wear & tear whereas ripping the frame out would probably warrant withholding some money.
Likewise, I don't think you have to leave the house 'new build showroom' clean. So long as you have left it reasonably clean & tidy I don't think they can take money for a team of super cleaners to come in.

Thanks for the advice. Nice to know it's not just a case of us being thick.

To be honest, we've not got a problem with taking money to do the things needed like repair the chipped paint, but it needs to be within reason. It seems like they're trying to get their property redecorated using our deposit.

We moved in on 29th March 2012, moved out 26th March 2013, handed keys back on 29th March after blitzing the house top to bottom.

I shall pester the agents about the DPS as well, because we never heard squat about that.

If you have not been given prescribed info about dps, then you can take the landlord to court for 3 times the deposit. Read that dps link I posted it is all in there. You are in the acsendancy.

From this ere[url= http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/Housing/privaterent/government/SGTD1/FAQtenants ]link[/url]

9.               FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH TENANCY DEPOSIT REGULATIONS
What happens if the deposit is not submitted to a scheme and/or information provided?
You may apply to a sheriff court for sanctions against your landlord for non-compliance with the regulations. If the sheriff is satisfied that your landlord has failed to comply they must order the landlord to pay you up to three times the amount of the deposit. They may also order that the deposit is submitted to an approved scheme or the missing information provided.

The sheriff will have discretion to take the individual circumstances of each application into account when deciding the amount of financial penalty that should apply.

 

 What happens if I move out of my home before realising that the landlord has not complied with the regulations?
You will have up to 3 months after the tenancy has ended to make an application to the court for sanctions against a landlord who has not complied with the Regulations.

And the dates are

Key dates for landlords
The dates by which landlords must pay deposits to an approved scheme and provide information to the tenant vary, depending on when the deposit was received:

1.  Deposit received prior to 7 March 2011:

Where the tenancy is renewed by express agreement or tacit relocation on or after 2 October 2012 and before 2 April 2013 (Regulation 47(a))

Within 30 working days of renewal

In any other case  (Regulation 47(b))

By 15 May 2013

2. Deposit received on or after 7 March 2011 and before 2 July 2012 (Regulation 48)

By 13 November 2012

You moved in march 2012, so your landlord had to have given you the prescribed info about the deposit by 13th nov 2012, which he has to be able to prove by you signing it. If he has not then he is frankly in the doo doo. Personally I would not let them keep a penny, purely because they so obviously are trying to skin you.
Fight fight fight..

I'm not wholly sure on the law in Scotland and you might want to run it past someone in Scotland who knows. Click my name, and you'll find details for shelter Scotland, free advice.

If it was in England, and i was you, i would tell the landlord/letting agent i want the deposit returned in full, deny any liability, and if the deposit was not returned in full i would be taking the matter to court as the deposit had not been protected. do everything in writing.

Well if you read the links I posted they are from scotland.gov.

If it was in England, and i was you, i would tell the landlord/letting agent i want the deposit returned in full, deny any liability, and if the deposit was not returned in full i would be taking the matter to court as the deposit had not been protected. do everything in writing

And this is frankly the wrong advice as you are entitled to claim for much more, up to three times the deposit, in england. And according to scotland.Gov it is similar . Essentially you are encouraging them to let the landlord off the hook, which is not in the spirit of the law, nor in fact is it in line with shelters mandate as I percieve it.

I thought the rules had changed nowadays but certainly when we rented, all three times we moved the landlord made up a load of guff about why he was keeping the deposit. I assumed that was standard practice in those days.

The last guy really annoyed me. He pretty much admitted he was keeping it because he wanted to, he couldn't even be bothered to make up a decent excuse so I said I was coming round to collect the deposit and when I got there he'd called two of his 'handymen' to the shop to discourage me from making a scene.

And this is frankly the wrong advice as you are entitled to claim for much more, up to three times the deposit, in england. And according to scotland.Gov it is similar . Essentially you are encouraging them to let the landlord off the hook, which is not in the spirit of the law, nor in fact is it in line with shelters mandate as I percieve it.

That's not technically correct, you can be awarded up to three times the deposit (plus costs) by a judge if you take the case to court and win. You are not entitled to it by default.

The advice (on shelter) is correct, the very first step is to request your deposit is returned within 10 days as it has not been protected. If they refuse then you can take legal action for non-compliance of the DPS legislation.
I do believe now that if the landlords do return the deposit (with or without a humble apology!), even at the doors of the court, you're unlikely to get a judgement against them, and thus no 'compensation'.
Getting 3 times the deposit awarded is generally for the more extreme end of the scale (so I've read anyway).

Consider myself something of a reluctant expert on this having just gone through it (and won) over the last 6 months.

This is very common, you must not let them get away with it, the law is very clear.
There are plenty of template letters on the net and examples of cases. There is also a 'no-win no -fee' outfit who will do it for you.
http://www.depositadvisoryservice.com/index.html

Edit: oh and they CANNOT serve eviction notices whilst your deposit is unprotected and in dispute.

There is also the very interesting prospect that should you obtain a judgement you are already sat in possibly their largest asset, which gives you some considerable leverage when executing your warrant.

Edit (again sorry): Should add that you are a long long way from arguing the toss over paint chips and you should tell them asap. Lack of deposit protection trumps everything.

Barkm - I said "[b]up to three times[/b]" insinuating that it is not automatically not 3 times. So I think you will find it is technically correct. Did you not bother to read my post, even though you quoted it? (I'm being light hearted, you seem really nice, but if you are going to hold me to account, its reciprocal)
But if you read the links from scotland.gov I posted they state

If the sheriff is satisfied that your landlord has failed to comply they[b] must order the landlord to pay you up to three times[/b] the amount of the deposit.

And your link for the no win no fee outfit states the same as I did

You are eligible to claim an additional award of [b]up to 3x [/b]your deposit (as well as having your original deposit protected/returned) if:

- the deposit was never protected or,
- the deposit was protected but they were not given sufficient information or,
- the deposit was protected and sufficient information was given but it either action was not performed within 30 days of the deposit being paid.

I do believe now that if the landlords do return the deposit (with or without a humble apology!), even at the doors of the court, you're unlikely to get a judgement against them, and thus no 'compensation'.
Getting 3 times the deposit awarded is generally for the more extreme end of the scale (so I've read anyway).

This is just plain wrong. Returning deposits on the steps of the courthouse in the England does not work anymore, they closed that loophole in about april last year. So your "reluctant expert" status should be downgraded to "reluctant"... 😆 (joke, ok) . The law in scotland is on the link I posted and it covers the same thing.

My point is that shelter should not be encouraging people to accept merely the return of the deposit in the event of a non protection.

The reason for this is twofold:

1) This allows landlords to take the piss with only the worry that if pressed, they need to return the deposit, it creates a "nothing to lose by taking the piss" culture. So by my reckoning shelter should be encouraging people to take landlords all the way to get them to understand that they have to behave fairly. If a landlord does not use the DPS in england then he needs to be shown that it is going to hurt.
2) The tenant has the right to try and claim for a share of this windfall, something for nothign if you like. It is their right, in this case, to benefit from the landlords mistake. Free money. Good news for the disenfranchised who are having to rent. It redresses the balance between tenant and landlord in some small way.

PS - I am a landlord and I have a third reason which is more personal:

3) I get pissed off with people slating landlords when I bend over backwards to keep my tenants happy, rent is easy money for me and I am happy that I should do some work for it. So I would like all these tosser landlords who give the rest of us a bad name to get punished.

That's ok I was specifically taking issue with the word 'entitled', you are 'eligible' there is very distinct difference. But pardon my pedantry, I did say it wasn't 'technically' correct, meaning not far off..

Regards the rest, yes as I said I'm just reciting guff from the internet, I make no claims to expertise in the matter, though I have spoken to experts at length about my own case. As with anything to do with 'law' interpretations and even experiences can differ wildly.

Keeping it simple (as I do not wish to be drawn into arguments), there is a law that covers this and it is relatively straight forward to pursue your claim.

I said

entitled to claim

I represent no-one. my views are my own. I have no mandate, no agenda. just offering some friendly advice, that happens to right.

Not for the 1st time this has happened, i will not be posting on this thread anymore.
to the OP: if you want you can email me

barkm - I don't diasgree that they should ask for their deposit back, but I disagree that they should make it conditional that if they recieve it then they will let the landlord off pursuing them. This is the mistake I see on Steve Austins advice. There should be no letting off.

Yes I see what you're saying. No problems, I may or may not be wrong I'm no expert and I've no interest in debating it really, just sharing some opinion etc. As always standard disclaimers apply with any imparted advice on the internet and I am no exception. The reader should always carry out due diligence before drawing any conclusions 🙂

I know that this doesn't apply in this case but anyone offering the "withhold the rent for the last month of the contract" advice is an idiot. Takes away any moral / legal high ground you might have had.

I've been a tenant in the past and been lucky (mostly) with landlords playing fair. I am now a (reluctant) landlord and try to play fair with my tenants. Its pretty much 50:50 as to how they treat me. Moral being - there are as many dick tenants as there are landlords.

OP - your landlord falls into dick territory. You appear to be a good tenant, even being honest that some minor jobs need attention. I'm sure he will cave when you fight back.

I'm no expert either. But it is all there in plain english the socttish gov website so hopefully the op can navigate it easily and at the very least get his deposit back, maybe a little bonus, and importantly teach his landlord a lesson.

I know that this doesn't apply in this case but anyone offering the "withhold the rent for the last month of the contract" advice is an idiot. Takes away any moral / legal high ground you might have had.

Moral/legal high ground is all well and good, but I'd rather have the cash in my pocket. We actually took legal advice on this from a free clinic with a solicitor when we were severely messed around by a landlord who refused to deal with serious damp and various other issues for months on end.

While the solicitor didn't exactly tell us to do not pay our last two months rent, he didn't advise against it. This was before the protection scheme came in.

I don't think witholding rent takes away legal high ground.

The withholding of rent and serving of notice arguements are irrelevant at this point. We paid our final month's rent like responsible tenants and we vacated the property on 26th March 2013. Interesting points so far though. Currently awaiting a reply for our DPS scheme information, which I think might be a long time coming....

Toys - Contracts state the value of the rent and the rental period. If you don't pay it, you breach the terms of the contract. Its no different to stealing. If the property is left immaculate (or at least in the same condition as it is found) then the net effect is zero. However, if there are remedial works required then the landlord has been screwed. Generally speaking here - not in this instance.

Many of these disputes (excluding this one as we seem to have a fair level of detail) are based on opinions as to what is acceptable. Very few people seem to read the contract thoroughly before agreeing to sign it. They tend to be pretty informative and can be questioned up front.

Grum - you wanting "money in your pocket" is no different to the landlord wanting the same. You can't expect others to play nice if you behave like that.

Toys - Contracts state the value of the rent and the rental period. If you don't pay it, you breach the terms of the contract. Its no different to stealing.

How's the view up on that high horse?

So what hysterical hyperbolic description would you give it when a landlord totally fails to deal with serious problems for months and months, and refuses to discuss any possible rent abatement? He couldn't even be bothered to come and look at the issues - he'd say someone was coming round and they never did.

cb - Member
Grum - you wanting "money in your pocket" is no different to the landlord wanting the same. You can't expect others to play nice if you behave like that.

Ridiculous. We only did that after months and months of him not 'playing nice'. Your attitude seems typical of many landlords tbh.

Sorry OP I know this is irrelevant to you.

We have disputed claims against a deposit successfully. It took a few emails mentioning things like betterment. They tried to use going to the dps as a threat but i was confident that the dps would find in our favour so said fine. They then agreed to the deductions we proposed - £75 rather than the £650 they suggested.

Grum - I'll admit to not seeing the months of issues bit in your particular case so I'd agree that you didn't get what you paid for. In your case the breach had already occurred via your landlady's ineptitude. My mistake - I think its clear that I was talking generally - so many people think its a 'right' to withhold the last month of rent.

Hysterical hyperbolic - you sure?

I think that you describe me accurately in that my attitude is typical of many landlords...that being fair and reasonable. 😉

cb - I think you are confusing legal and moral. Breach of contract does not erase your rights, and some contract terms are unenforcable/not legal anyway.

Interesting thread, as I'm currently renting for the first time since the early 80s! Have been told the agents can be buggers for getting deposits back.
Can you get them round in advance of moving out - to tell you what needs sorting and thus avoid arguments about the deposit later?

Interesting thread, as I'm currently renting for the first time since the early 80s! Have been told the agents can be buggers for getting deposits back.

Can you get them round in advance of moving out - to tell you what needs sorting and thus avoid arguments about the deposit later?

I do this with my tenants, I write to them 2 weeks before about a pre leaving inspection, raise all the issues (almost always cleaning) get them to solve it, havent had to keep any deposit money for years.

Thanks for that. Stupidly, I wouldn't have thought to ask on here about this stuff. Duh!

They did an inspection about 2 months after I moved in and said they would produce a report for the landlord and I'd get a copy. I've seen nothing though.

DezB have you been given your prescribed information? (Are you scotland or england?)

The reason they changed the law is because of landlords widely taking the piss when it came to deposits.

So OP stand your ground.

Toys - I'm glad there are still decent landlords like yourself.

Ha a couple of my current tenants do not think so:

One said:

"It was unprofessional of you to not answer my text I sent you last night at 7pm"

Another one - I had to fix a dripping rad, [b]had made an appointment 3 days[/b] in advance, when I arrived there was no answer, so I let myself in to get on with it. When I got up to the room the girl was sick in bed, so I volunteered to come back another day (there was a cup under the drip and it took about a week to get half full) . She said her mum was coming to collect her that night so tomorrow would be fine.
So I duly returned the next day, no answer so I let myself in again. Got on with the job went home. That night one of the other tenants (shared house) sent me a shitty email complaining that I should not come around and do repairs without notice...
In theory she may have had a point, I dunno if the other girl telling me it was Ok to come back tomorrow was enough for it to be OK, but the point was unreasonable IMHO, and now I treat them with kid gloves as a paranoid person would say they were trying to stitch me up...

DezB Did you take photos when you moved in? I do this with my tenants - present them with a folder of before pictures and ask them to sign. Do the same when they move out. Any problems are easier to solve. Its not foolproof but its an aid to understanding the terms of the contract i.e. what is and isn't expected.

cb - it is virtually compulsory to have photos with mydeposits.com.

[i]DezB have you been given your prescribed information?[/i]

England. What's that?
They gave me an inventory, with photos. I gave them some updates when I moved in.

Just checked the agents: [i]Your Tenancy Deposit will be held as Stakeholder in accordance with the Tenancy Deposit Protection Scheme, which means that it can be released as soon as
both parties agree. (please refer to your Tenancy Agreement)[/i]

Sounds reasonable?

I don't really have anyhting constructive to add but having been screwed by money grabing letting agents/landords....

Letting agents really are the lowest of the low - little better than common theives. They also seem to be run by the dimest people on earth. Sometimes I wonder if they operate as some sort of sheltered employment for the chronically thick and morally vacant.

DEZB Yeah thats bollocks. They have to have given you the prescribed info, which is a certificate that details which DPS scheme provider your deposit is with, and a sheet of info from the provider about how the dep is protected etc. The agents are dummies if they cannot just email you this. Anyway If it has not been done within 30 days of you recieving the deposit then they are potentially in the poo. Where in england are you? I can point you to some help.

larrydavid - I agree!

Thanks toys19 - I'm in Hampshire.

What about damage brought about by the agents/landlord not fixxing things in a timely manner?
For example,
leaking tap in bathroom took 3 weeks to fix result rotten floor and stain in kitchen ceiling.

How do I make sure I dont pay for this?

dezb - I'm in devon, local solicitor would have been ..

If the property is left immaculate (or at least in the same condition as it is found) then the net effect is zero. However, if there are remedial works required then the landlord has been screwed. Generally speaking here - not in this instance.

Not sure of the intent of your wording, but am gonna use your quote to make a point - the property does not have to be 'immaculate' or 'in the same condition as it was found in'.

Landlords should not use the deposit to perform maintenance on defects that can be attributable to [i]reasonable wear and tear[/i]. Many do, however, think the deposit is there to cover this.

Its unreasonable for a Landlord to expect a property to be vacated after a year in identical condition to the begining of the tenancy. Walls get marked, carpets wear through daily use etc.

Its unreasonable for a Landlord to expect a property to be vacated after a year in identical condition to the begining of the tenancy. Walls get marked, carpets wear through daily use etc.

Yup, and this has been proven in the courts time and time again.

what's the story if you cause more damage than your deposit?

well I think you are still liable, you either agree what you think and pay or the LL would sue I guess?

Interesting thread, as I'm currently renting for the first time since the early 80s! Have been told the agents can be buggers for getting deposits back.
Can you get them round in advance of moving out - to tell you what needs sorting and thus avoid arguments about the deposit later?

A bit late if you're already in, but my advice would be, if it isn't part of the agreed inventory signing process already, take photos when you move in. Lots and lots of photos of absolutely everything. Get it witnessed, or registered post yourself copies (and don't open the envelope on receipt unless needed later on, in which case, have it opened in the company of a solicitor or similar).

[i]They have to have given you the prescribed info, which is a certificate that details which DPS scheme provider your deposit is with, and a sheet of info from the provider about how the dep is protected etc. The agents are dummies if they cannot just email you this.[/i]

The agents are good at replying to emails. How can I mention this to them without sounding like a smartarse?!

I'll check what's in the tenancy agreement later.

kingisdead - there's not enough hours in the day to type enough to satisfy the degree of pedantry on here!

Of course wear and tear is acceptable - landlords get allowances for this in their tax returns and that wouldn't be classed as remedial. An example of what I am talking about is that if a fridge is perfectly clean when a tenant enters, it should be clean when they exit 6/12 months later. Same for cooker etc - filth is not wear and tear. Broken windows might be a better example.

Renting shouldn't cause issues but it is clear in the OP's case that he is being screwed. Every time this happens the outraged of this forum start spouting crap about all landlords being scum. Its just common respect - I don't expect my tenants to hover above the carpet and not wear it out but if their kids paint all over a radiator then I damn well expect them to sort it.

What if, for example, the toilet seat brackets were (yes!) [i]painted silver[/i] to hide the fact they were skanky and the silver paint has now flaked off.... (the place isn't as bad as it sounds!).
Should I replace them now, or risk having £100 nicked from my deposit?

dezb.
The onus is on the landlord to protect the deposit in the dps scheme and give the prescribed info about how it is protected. If he has not done this (and you moved in since april 20007, when it started) then he is in breach and is potentially liable for up to 3x deposit. Given that you do not appear to be aware then either:
a) You have the prescribed info in your bumpf from the LL and have not looked at it - in which case the LL is not in breach
b) He has protected it but has failed to furnish you with the prescribed info - he is in breach
c) he hasnt protected it.

You are not a smart arse, just ask them where the prescribed info is, and why you have not had a copy (after searching your files to ensue you do not have this already).
If it turns out that they have not given you the prescribed info then seek legal advice and sue. If it turns out the have not protected it at all then also seek legal advice and sue. Punish them for being crap and get some free money.
Or apologise in public when you find that thyey ahd given you the info all along..

With regards to tHe bog seat, take pics and let the LL/agent know, and then move on. They will not be able to charge you for having paint stripping piss vapour, we all have this.

Will do - cheers.

Of course wear and tear is acceptable - landlords get allowances for this in their tax returns and that wouldn't be classed as remedial.

When you moved in you should have been given a DPS certificate with two codes on it .They cant get your money from it for the deposit without you agreeing unless they go to court .I have just left a rented place and released the deposit to he landlord because I owed him some money for utilities

Right, I'm moving out of my rented flat in a couple of weeks and this thread has made me a bit nervous!

Been in the property 4 years and IMO been the perfect tennant. I have asked for nothing from the landlord (havent needed to) and always paid rent on time, even had to chase the landlady for her payment details!

Anyway when I moved in there was no bathroom cabinet/mirror in the bathroom so I asked if I could put one up (after struggling without for a month without!), saying I didnt mind leaving it when I left and, after a bit of confusion (letting agent telling the landlady that I wanted her to put one up... that didn't go down well!) she agreed, so up one went. Fast forward 4 years, the letting agent and the landlady's fella came round yesterday for a pre leaving look around and the cabinet was mentioned, I said they could have it as I'm moving into a fully fitted out place. They want me to remove it, and fix any damage! Can I tell them to do one? Who wants a bathroom with no mirror or cabinet? Also finding paint (brown) to match the wall will be near on impossible!

Flying Ox - back to your issues. Yes landlords get tax relief for wear and tear - I 'think' it is 10% of gross rental income per year (someone else might correct that). 24 man hours at £19ph is just silly for gardening, £15ph for cleaning is also high and as for £110 to paint a door frame (that's a days work for a painter).

Not all landlords are cocks - yours is. Fight it calmly and patiently and you will get most of your cash back.

tomhoward - re-decoration would be expected after 4 years of you living there, your landlady should sort that (as long as you haven't gone all Banksy over their walls). The agent should have a record of your request for the cabinet? Brown walls eh? Nice...

lol, single brown wall, evidently that was the fashion 10 years ago. Along with the artex ceiling.

I took a landlord to the small claims court over unreasonable retention of my entire deposit. The letting agency were no use whatsoever, but when we went to court, the landlord was ordered to pay me my deposit in full. Not a pleasant thing to have to do, but necessary.