You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
An old friend of mine, who was always fairly anti-establishment, has recently started losing the plot a bit. She is subscribing to a lot of conspiracy theories, and doing it very publicly online through Facebook etc.
The thing is, she's creating an online echo chamber; it's almost to the point that there's no room for rational discussion. And, TBH, she is starting to make herself look like a complete pillock.
The latest one, for purposes of example, is that the United Nations 'Agenda 21' agreement on international development and humanitarian infrastructure (Yes; I have read all 71 pages) is actually a covert agenda to [i]depopulate the planet by 95% before 2030[/i].
Rational argument is met by 'It's not my job to educate you. You need to become aware' type responses, despite the complete absence of any credible facts, statistics or sources. She's been utterly brainwashed.
More worryingly, in my opinion, she has self-elected to be brainwashed.
Any thoughts on this? In general?
Cheers. M
Rational argument is met by 'It's not my job to educate you. You need to become aware' type responses, despite the complete absence of any credible facts, statistics or sources. She's been utterly brainwashed.
Start a thread on Lyme Disease or vaccinations.
😆
Don't worry, she'll be one of the first of the 95%
Tell her she shouldn't worry anyway, humans won't depopulate the planet on purpose - we'll end up coming to a bitter end Battlestar Galactica style - being chased through space by pissed off at being invented, genocidal robots that are trying to understand the meaning of life. Our dying last communication in the vast, dead emptiness of space will be a mind uploaded Trump connected to a ships intranet version of twitter.
Standard fare for conspiracy theorists. They tend to believe outlandish claims made in online documentaries by non qualified people but then refuse to read (or believe) academic studies or reports from professionals and adopt the fingers-in-ear approach when an opposing view is backed up with fact.
Simple solution is to unfriend on FB.
she'll be one of the first of the 95%
You may joke, but when I challenged her, her response was "if you're not with the programme, maybe you should join the 95%".
Seriously folks, this is a good friend of mine, a real person who I care about.
Please don't be excessively flippant.
I'm very interested in approaches to combatting the self affirming 'circle think' of conspiracies.
Simple solution is to unfriend on FB.
If only it were that easy. She's an actual person in the flesh who I care about. But 'yes i agree' to the rest of your comment.
Combat it by putting her on ignore on FB.
A girl who was a good friend of mine for 12 years voted Brexit because...working rights will be improved... and she previously got aggressive about autism and vaccines. These people are just loons and best avoided or at least openly mocked until they learn some self doubt.
No time for these types of people now, life on this planet is relatively short.
You'll never change their minds. A couple of my friends for many years have become increasingly tin foil hat wearing nutters on FB - everything causes cancer, Monsanto is the cause of all evil in the world and 911 was a false flag excercise and do on. Just work out if you can accept them having these views whilst not agreeing with them and still be mates. If you try and represent any rational evidence based argument you'll just be accused of being one of the 'sheeple' media manipulated masses!
she'll be one of the first of the 95%You may joke, but when I challenged her, her response was "if you're not with the programme, maybe you should join the 95%".
Seriously folks, this is a good friend of mine, a real person who I care about.
Please don't be excessively flippant.
Fair enough, and good on you for caring. But really what can you do if she's determined to follow the 'mad /implausible' and is immune to rational argument? You can take a horse to water etc
Has anything happened in her life to trigger this? Bereavement, loss of job, split from BF etc? Does she need to see a GP and could she be persuaded to?
Yeah, throw loads of anti-psychotics at them. That'll educate them.
Nahhh what they need is some kind of prison sentence, where they are continually lectured and derided by dozens of experts in various fields - until they finally embrace that suppressed niggling part of their brain that knows they are thick idiots with less control than they think they have over their lives.
bodgy - Member
Simple solution is to unfriend on FB.
If only it were that easy. She's an actual person in the flesh who I care about. But 'yes i agree' to the rest of your comment.
Okay, lets ignore the statement that she is making herself look like a complete pillock for a moment.
Is she unhappy? is she single (that's not an offer)? Is there something missing in her life? Is this just her online persona and she is the same person in real life?
It may also be a passing fad.
Send her this book?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer
Conspiracy lunacy is a mass movement in of itself.
I think that there have been many historical and self compounding reasons why she is angry with the world, and I'm not going to explore them with the wider community. But, yes, there's history.
But that's missing the point; I'm interested in damage limitation[u] now[/u].
Facts and rationality just seem to get brushed aside. Being reasonable brings a fleeting glimpse of perspective, but as soon as she hangs out with co-conspiratorial mates in the flesh or online any efforts evaporate.
Difficult to know how to combat such self satisfying theories? Does that make sense?
I might have to read that myself, Tom.
Seriously, buy her a copy of the above book. One day, she'll get it.
2016 was the year we forgot the lessons of a global bestseller written in the 50's.
"fact-proof screens between the faithful and the realities of the world."[13]
That book makes the world appear like a broken record.
Sounds like mental health difficulties might involved. Personally I would just ignore the FB stuff and speak to her normally about normal stuff
Like Tom here with his closed and inflexible mind she will not listen
Sounds like an interesting book.
Sounds like mental health difficulties might involved
Yeah, just think TJ - she may even have BPD - so according to you we may as well write her off as untreatable, despite the weight of evidence proving otherwise! You fon't operate on oersonal prejudice, no sir, not at all. Note one bit.
😆
Honestly they believe it because they want to, it fills a void there.
An inlaw and her partner were well up on all of them. I was visiting not long after Fukashima where all sorts of outlandish calims were being made, even after a long conversation about reactor design and how the core wasn't melting it's way through the earths crust etc. they were still sceptical about facts.
In a similar way another friend was at Glastonbery where he went to see the greenpeace stand, their claims were the windscale fire was still going - despite my mate having been in the building in question 2 days before it was simply dismissed as being part of the conspiracy.
Once a conspiracy has been decalred then it's off and running. It's not about rational thought
Is she causing harm to herself or others ? Not mental harm but physical ?
If it ain't physical then really what can you do ? If bombarding her with "rational" thought messages won't get through, why stay friends ? One day she'll come round, but sometimes people need to go through this very kind of indoctrination to enable them to see clearly again.
Sounds mental; I'd tap it. 🙂
[img] 
[/img]
[url= https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/wiki/locc ]You know, not all conspiracy theories are fake...[/url]
You can't really. A close family member of mine is a bit like this, I refuse to engage, won't talk about them, or engage in any discussion regarding them.
Set out why, and how they effect you, agree with your friend that they are off limits, if the friendship is worth anything to her, she'll agree, if not...
This was the start of the end for Facebook for me. quite a few close family members were constantly doing this. I muted them, then more started, then I closed my account. It's just like all those religious nuts, they are free to believe what they like but don't try and force it on me.
I'd mute her on FB (or maybe it's time to close your account too?) and try to change the subject if she brings it up in conversation.
Typing:
Attraction of conspiracy theories
Into google brings up articles based on psychology from scientific mags with a bit of substance behind them, but of course, if there is that degree of mistrust it would be easy to construct a theory about these as well!
Well done for not giving up on a friend...
You have jivebunnyjive on your Facebook ?
Be a friend in real life. Talk about real issues. Experience real emotions and feelings together.
People retreat into this kind of online pseudo-existence to compensate for a void in their real lives.
I have a close friend who is schizophrenic who is heavily involved in theories like these. My response is always, what can I do and what effect will my actions have? I get accused of being a tourist of my own life, but I argue if I can't change something, I'm better off not knowing.
Interesting choice of words OP, "combatting". Seems as futile as the political rhetoric used for the 'war on drugs' or 'war on terror' and just as aggressive.
We can't change others, only our own reactions. As a friend, you will be able to accept them for who and what they are and believe. If you find yourself unable to do that, that'll be a clue or two for you.
Although acceptance of and for others is a rare thing on here, so maybe you knew the answer you wanted to hear anyway?
Conspiracy lunacy is a mass movement in of itself.
This...
I must admit I quite like a good conspiracy theory, but I think of it as fiction, produced by mildly disturbed people intended to sway the impressionable...
It's also worth examining those behind much of it, there seems to be a bit of a "Conspiracy cartel" of middleaged to older men, often a bit on the fringes (many with wacky beards and ponytails), sort of outlier narcissist types... Usually with a book to sell.
FB and the rise of YouTube "documentaries" has made all this stuff more accessible too. But in the absence of any moderating influence or counter-examination, people can start believing any and everything...
Plus it's a reaction to the real world; politicians are widely mistrusted, our news is full of negative stories, climate change, the growing gap in wealth, etc, etc, it's no wonder increasingly disenfranchised people want to blame the Lizard people...
The best thing you can do is be a rational sounding board for your friend, let her know you don't want to argue or mock her, but if her beliefs can't stand up to rational examination by a non-malicious skeptic, then perhaps she should consider their basis again...
Makes you think.....
Treat it as a sport and just out-loon her. Whatever outlandish thing she posts, expand on it with some more extreme made-up craziness of your own and a smiley.
When, eventually, she baulks at your belief in lizard overlords at the WHO pushing death vaccines, you can tell her it's not your job to educate her. 🙂
When, eventually, she baulks at your belief in lizard overlords at the WHO pushing death vaccines, you can tell her it's not your job to educate her.
Not lizards...... Devils.
They fly business class around the world disguised as paper clip salesmen.
They need to wear orthopaedic shoes to disguise their cloven hooves.
Makes you think.
Used to work with a guy that was really into the whole contrails theories, an intelligent guy and a nice fella too. He would sit every lunchtime and watch whatever youtube threw at him, theory after theory - he wanted to believe.
I honestly think he was either just bored, or had something missing from his life, either way, there was no way he would listen to reasoned argument without getting quite animated. Guys who tried just gave up in the end, and didn't bring it up.
This happened to my sister. I tried reasoning with her over several months about her failed logic and "alternate facts" but as she had other issues, yes mental health and drug abuse. She just kept spouting the same old shit and shutting down and refusing to see point blank how insane her arguments were. It even got to a point that she was so paranoid she wouldn't leave the house and it started affecting her kids.
Fortunately shes off the drugs and getting help for the issues but she still believes in the same rubbish. However I recently saw one of the posts on Facebook her closest friend posted, something regarding the government using ELF weaponry (Extremely Low Frequency) to control the population anywhere from Paranoid to Cancer...where do they get their ideas from?
Cant believe how many shills there are on the board, some of you need to get more woke
They fly business class around the world disguised as paper clip salesmen.
They need to wear orthopaedic shoes to disguise their cloven hooves.Makes you think.
Seriously, paper clip salesmen? I don't believe there's any such thing these days. FAKE NEWS!
Take her off Facebook.
Thing with social media is that people follow / friend people or websites that seem to have similar interests and it can lead to a very one-dimensional view of things where everyone is posting the same sort of thing and you rarely get to hear the alternative views because you've self selected not to hear them (maybe without even knowing).
Conspiracy thoeries in general can be quite hard to debunk because anyone claiming otherwise gets branded as being in on it, one of the conspirators; any alternative view (even when backed up by science) is actually a conspiracy to discredit "the truth".
😆
Seriously, paper clip salesmen? I don't believe there's any such thing these days.
That's what they want you to believe.
You've seen a paper clip haven't you? Who did you buy it from?
Must've been someone.....paper clips don't just sell themselves.
Can't remember what the bloke looked like? Never saw his face?
Is that giving you an uneasy feeling?.... just have a vague impression of some questionable footwear?
You are experiencing deja shoe.
Has she watched Eutopia? You should probably suggest it if not.
You've seen a paper clip haven't you? Who did you buy it from?
Must've been someone.....paper clips don't just sell themselves.
They come from eBay. You've heard of the internet, right? Or maybe you think it's a conspiracy?
They come from eBay.
Yeah.....but who did eBay get them from?
Makes you think.....
just have a vague impression of some questionable footwear?
LOL 😀
You've seen a paper clip haven't you? Who did you buy it from?
Must've been someone.....paper clips don't just sell themselves.
They just turn up don't they? I suspect they are involved in some bizarre matter transfer thing with socks that go missing.
Yeah.....but who did eBay get them from?
Just to [url= http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Paper-Clip.html ]help you out[/url]. You clearly think there's something sinister about paper clips, but they've been around for years. Despite what you claim, they were not invented by lizards as a convenient way of hiding in plain sight.
I'm guessing you won't believe me. And you'll start trying to discredit madehow.com, which is a very, very beautiful and reliable source believe me, but you are being RIDICULOUS!
They just turn up don't they?
That's exactly what these shadowy figures of chaos want you to think.
Ther have been unconfirmed reports that high ranking officers within their organisation ([b]Captain[/b] and above) use some sort of stroboscopic, light device which sends out a strong [b]Flash
[/b] which affects your memory by causing a shock to your circulatory system, particularly the [b]Heart[/b] and lungs.
These sinister agents are sometimes referred to as "The Men in Beige"
If you think thats bad , I know someone who belives that there is a man living in the sky & he watches everything that everybody on the planet does.
This man is apparently going to judge us after our death & if we have not adheared to his rules , we are going to be tortured for eternity! (but he loves us & is all about forgivness)
Anyways, if you go to a building evey sunday & pray to him, even though he has a grand plan, he will change it just for you.
Scary huh?
She sounds completely bonkers...
Perhaps you could encourage her to do some voluntary work with refugees from Syria or Yemen to show her there's really nothing to worry about.
You clearly think there's something sinister about paper clips, but they've been around for years. Despite what you claim, they were not invented by lizards as a convenient way of hiding in plain sight.
You have provided sources to prove that paper clips and paperclip factories exist and are a real thing.
It's a logical assumption that the people who own these factories are producing a product in order to sell it.
On that basis I would contend that the existence of people whose job it is to sell this product i.e paper clip salesmen is a provable fact.
Denying the existence of paperclip salesmen is a totally irrational belief.
Seriously, paper clip salesmen? I don't believe there's any such thing
I can't believe i've been drawn into an internet argument with such a crackpot. 😉
Despite what you claim, they were not invented by lizards as a convenient way of hiding in plain sight.
Ah, but what about crocodile clips?
You have provided sources to prove that paper clips and paperclip factories exist and are a real thing.
It's a logical assumption that the people who own these factories are producing a product in order to sell it.
Fake news! VERY UN-SINGLETRACK!
If you think thats bad , I know someone who belives that there is a man living in the sky & he watches everything that everybody on the planet does.
Sexist drivel.
Fake news! VERY UN-SINGLETRACK!
Fake? .......or your perception of reality has been altered by our stationery overlords?
[img] 
[/img]
Not to be trusted, those paper clip salesmen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
jivehoneyjive - Member
She sounds completely bonkers...
😯
Dude, what?
Someone (no idea who) once said that you can't reason someone out of an opinion or position that they didn't reason themselves into.
Applies to politics a bit (see anyone who thinks Trump or Corbyn are "good leaders") religion a lot and conspiracy theories even more so.
My theory is that in some areas peoples thought processes go slightly off kilter and if untruths or non facts go uncorrected its not just a bit of misinformation that needs to be corrected but a whole interlinked world view.
Which of course leads to Voltaire "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
Frightening thought in these times.
Paperclips....
Where do they come from
[url=
Paperclip Machine[/url]
Fast forward to 2:20 to find the bit that would make a great "Gif you could watch all day" 🙂
you can't reason someone out of an opinion or position that they didn't reason themselves into.
Been trawling around the net a bit. This was interesting:
[url= https://writersblik.wordpress.com/tag/r-m-hare/ ]https://writersblik.wordpress.com/tag/r-m-hare/[/url]
Essentially, as other commenters have noted, belief in conspiracy theories, religion and ideological politics ar [b]bliks[/b], as defined by the philosopher RM Hare. The beliefs are unverifiable, and ultimately unfalsifiable, as in his parable of the Paranoid Man.
[b]The Story of the Killer Dons[/b] (aka The Parable of the Paranoid Man)
[i]“A certain lunatic is convinced that all dons want to murder him. His friends introduce him to all the mildest and most respectable dons that they can find, and after each of them has retired, they say, ‘You see, he doesn’t really want to murder you; he spoke to you in a most cordial manner; surely you are convinced now?’ But the lunatic replies, ‘Yes, but that was only his diabolical cunning; he’s really plotting against me the whole time, like the rest of them; I know it, I tell you.’ However many kindly dons are produced, the reaction is still the same.”[/i]
I think you really have to worry if you suffer from pronoia - the belief that people are conspiring to help you.
I know someone who belives that there is a man living in the sky & he watches everything that everybody on the planet does.
Even more ridiculous, I know someone who gets on a bike at the weekend and rides around in a massive circle over big hills just for the hell of it. Insanity.
Anyway - another excellent book:
[url= https://www.amazon.com/Believing-Brain-Conspiracies-How-Construct-Reinforce/dp/1250008808 ]The Believing Brain by Michael Shermer[/url]
Starts off slightly waffly but then gets sciencey in a solid neurological way.
Surprised [url= https://xkcd.com/966/ ]this[/url] hasn't made it here yet
I thought you couldn't really challenge them because they just double down when they are.
Not to be trusted, those paper clip salesmen.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
jivehoneyjive - Member
She sounds completely bonkers...Dude, what?
Sometimes it's not about the paper clips, but the paper trail...
Allen Dulles, later head of the CIA, was one of the key architects of Operation Paperclip, which led to such projects as MK-ULTRA
With Prescott Bush (Dubya and Jeb's grandad), Dulles was also one of the key players in arranging the finances that led to WW2, maintaining financial support for the Nazi's throughout the war then when the war was over laundering the profits of the Nazi's exploits via Fritz Thyssen's contacts within the Dutch Monarchy.
Is that conspiracy theory? Nope, just documented history which for some reason or other isn't particularly well publicized
Just don't ask how it relates to the Bilderberg Group...
Paperclips? Not that many required with so few public documents...