conservatory building regs issue - advice please

To put it simply it's not a conservatory unless there is an exterior standard door between the main house and the conservatory.

Heating can't be connected to main house either.

^^^That is far from a conservatory and would have needed building regs and planning approval. Sorry.

House can still be sold though, it will just affect value. A mortgage company may object, but a cash buyer can do what they like.

From here...
https://www.ultraframe-conservatories.co.uk/news/do-i-need-an-external-door-between-my-home-and-my-conservatory-
[i] Most conservatories are exempt from most parts of the Building Regulations provided they keep the external grade dividing doors. Should you wish to renew the doors with newer ones, then the doors have to comply with part L of the Building Regulations even though the conservatory doesn’t. A FENSA or CERTASS registered window and door installer (most respected installers have these accreditations) will help you with this.

[/i]

Did he get planning and building regs when it was built.

If no BR then he may well be in a tricky position when he wants to sell.

No idea about rental.

I'm not 100% sure on this - but I'd have thought advice from a structural engineer would have been needed to make sure opening up such a big gap close to the corner of the house was done properly.

I'd get a few estate agents round with a view to selling. They'll have seen loads of this sort of stuff before.

Can't answer the OP question but trying my best to guess where 'near Knaresborough' that is based on the style of the house (Appelby estate off Ripley Road)???

yeah. That isn't a conservatory, it's a B&M Bargains/Bodgit n Scarper extension 😂

Bet that's expensive to heat !

On not the same scale I had a similar issue.  Background: old, modest sized conservatory was renovated as a garden room (retained glass doors, replaced glass roof with tiles and velux and removed interior doors).  When selling we realised we had a building regs problem but were able to buy an indemnity against it being a problem for the purchasers from our solicitor.  Seemed like an every day issue to the solicitor and a small price to pay for such a large transaction.

near Knaresborough

Near Knaresborough is Starbeck isn't it?

just been talking to bro, and to answer a couple of questions, builder said nothing further was required.   bit of a sh1thouse trick but bro accepts that the buck stops with him, he just trusted him as he was a local builder with a decent rep.  no idea if he still lives/drinks local but following that up would lead nowhere now anyway as he's retired.

yes, 'conservatory' was probably my wording, as thats what it looks like and may even have to revert to.

i suppose retrospective BR is out of the question?  could bro look on any records anywhere to see if any planning/BR was actually applied for and builder just said 'dont worry nothing needed' as meaning 'dont worry, i'll sort it all'?

Appelby estate off Ripley Road

oooh not far off but no cigar 😉

yes i considered an indemnity, thatd be just for selling tho yep, theres nothing equivalent for renting?

thanks

EDIT:

Near Knaresborough is Starbeck isn’t it?

johndoh is warmer than you 🙂

i suppose retrospective BR is out of the question?

Might be worth contacting one of the independent building regs companies or an architect (not council as you don't want to flag up issues) and see what would be involved in getting proper approval.

You can look on your local council planning portal to see if there was a planning application - I very much doubt it was sought though. Your brother would really have to know and plans would have had to be drawn up.

Move the expensive kitchen island and put in exterior bifold doors across the opening?  Disconnect the radiators and fit electric elements in them.

Might still need building regs though.  If he decides to sell instead, do not consult with building regs. As soon as you notify them of an issue (or a buyer does) you technically void an indemnity policy which would cover the lack of building regs.

It may well have been built very well indeed, but for building regs they're going to want to know how the opening in the external wall was formed (size and number of lintels, etc.

I can't see how this would happen without some level of dismantling.

johndoh is warmer than you

Well obviously, no-one lives in Starbeck. It's all forest moor or Knaresborough road or bogs lane.

Unless you're trying to buy it, in which case it's Starbeck for precisely as long as it takes to buy, then it's transported back to nr. Knaresborough or nr. Harrogate once you exchange.

For a conservatory to be exempt it needs to be under 30 sq. m internal floor area, have thermal separation between it and the rest of the dwelling, and have any heating at least on a separate zone, but ideally isolatable entirely.

His options are as already covered:

1) Remove island and install wall/doors or door/glazed panels in the opening to thermally separate it and call it a conservatory.
2) Seek to regularise it with the Local Authority, which will require invasive works to check foundations and insulation provision, and thermal upgrade of the roof at least, which may in turn require structural upgrade of the frames supporting the roof, and a SAP calculation to justify it for Part L, as it would still be highly glazed.

Conservatory isn't defined in Approved Document L any more, but used to require min. 50% glazing to walls and 75% glazing to roof. In the absence of any amended definition, that is still employed in practice.

An indemnity policy isn't an option because the Local Authority are already aware of the unauthorised works. Fortunately, he's outside the timescale for formal enforcement action (2 years), but that doesn't mean it complies, and it would be still be very difficult to sell in the future.

You can get off the shelf steel lintels of 4m or more in length now, so the beam over the opening wouldn't necessarily have been bespoke/required structural engineer input, and it ought to be fairly safe to assume there aren't any point loads above it. The return on the corner looks just about alright, and being sensible, if it hasn't moved in 4 years it's unlikely to now.

I'd advise he keeps up with painting the render above the lead flashing, as it's doubtful a cavity tray was installed (very few do) and that can be a big issue if rain penetrates the wall.

If he's not planning on living in it himself for the foreseeable future, my best advice would be to move/remove the island, stick an isolator/bypass in the heating circuit and get some doors/glazed panels installed in the opening, and claim it's exempt. He may still need to regularise the beam over the opening with the LA, but that should be simple enough.

edit: Saw an above post after I'd replied... Don't bother contacting an Approved Inspector (Independent Building Control Body) as they can't do any retrospective works, by virtue of the fact they must submit an Initial Notice to the LA at least 5 days before works commence on site. In addition, AI's don't have legal enforcement powers, only LA's do, so as the works are unauthorised and your brother has ultimately broken the law, it is the LA as the enforcement body who must deal with it from hereon in.

oooh not far off but no cigar

Scotton?

Might be worth contacting one of the independent building regs companies

ASK were very good with us (Harrogate-based) when our builder 'forgot' to get approval after bunging a load of steels in. Fortunately, I had pictures of the work as they were putting it in so they didn't have to remove any coverings to inspect though.

@johndoh That may have served a purpose, but is very dodgy.

Second that point about not contacting the LA on any building regs question.  I think there may be a time-barred element to BR after which you cannot be questioned on it but I am not an expert.  Our buyers (and their solicitors) accepted the indemnity as soon as we told them, and they had more than enough questions about more trivial matters.

That may have served a purpose, but is very dodgy.

They *had* been out in the first place TBF (when they'd done all the prep work but before they'd tied the steels in IIRC), they just didn't get them back out for the follow-up inspection before sealing it up.

No useful advise here, sorry, but why on earth would someone do that to a house? I can't imagine anyone wanting to rent a house that had that done to it either!

edit: Saw an above post after I’d replied… Don’t bother contacting an Approved Inspector (Independent Building Control Body) as they can’t do any retrospective works

They could advise what would need to be done though - and steps needed to be taken.

To me LA's are like banks - only inform them of shit when you absolutely have to - they never work in your interests. Get someone on a bad day and they could just tell him to take it down and put the wall back.

Get your ducks in a row before approaching.

Possibly contact one of the many companies that seem to advertise new insulated roofs for this type of extension and see what their prices cover?  They may provide calcs etc that could be used for a BR submission.  It looks big enough to have needed a planning application...

I'd sell and get the indemnity insurance...

but why on earth would someone do that to a house?

I know, candles and a table runner? It's not 1523!

Well obviously, no-one lives in Starbeck. It’s all forest moor or Knaresborough road or bogs lane.

Unless you’re trying to buy it, in which case it’s Starbeck for precisely as long as it takes to buy, then it’s transported back to nr. Knaresborough or nr. Harrogate once you exchange.

LOL so true. Nobody wants to live in Starbekistan.

When we were kids, going to the swimming baths on the school bus, we always held our breath as we went past Bogs Lane 🙂

johndoh, bingo on location, thats a shiny new £1 coin to you sir.

thanks everyone for your advice and good suggestions, i'll pass this thread onto bro to read, and see what he wants to do.  gut feeling for me is (re)moving the island and sticking doors/glazing in there so its a conservatory.  regarding capping the heating off, i didnt realise you could get electric elements for these so thanks for that, seems a top suggestion.

cheers

If it is in the Scotton/Ripley road area it may also be in a conservation zone though I'm not sure how far it extends or if it would complicate things this long after the work was done.

Assume you are talking about the government proposal that rental property must have an EPC rating of C or above in 2025. At the moment that is a proposal and may not be enforced e.g.: https://www.mortgagemonster.co.uk/post/epc-regulations-2025

The building regs issue won't be a problem when he sells. You will buy an indemnity against enforcement for £25 (unless you have notified the LA of an issue already, in which case what possessed you to do that....). I've bought houses like that and sold houses like that.

Regarding renting it out, just get a different agent round thats not so much of a jobsworth. There are millions of rental properties of a far lower standard out there.

Good luck finding a tenant / buyer for a freezing cold in winter and searingly hot in summer kitchen. Had he never been in a conservatory before that building out?!

He may be better in all scenarios just adding an exterior bifold as above and losing the island. This can be left open for the 3 days a year a conservatory makes sense. I wouldn't bother splitting the heating or getting build regs approval.

johndoh, bingo on location, thats a shiny new £1 coin to you sir.

Whoop, I win 🙂

If it is in the Scotton/Ripley road area it may also be in a conservation zone

Given the amount of house they are allowing to be bunged up, I doubt the council give a fig.

we bought a house with a smaller but similar conservatory fitted to the kitchen and the wall removed.  it was a probate so no paperwork.  no building regs or planning.  small enough to be planning exempt but should have had regs.  picked up by our surveyor as well as it was on the central heating.  house was freezing in winter because of it.  we had it removed 5 years later when we did redid the kitchen.

it shouldn't be an issue selling, from memory the indemnity was less than £100.

but it will put off buyers, anyone whose had a conservatory will know that is a really expensive heat sink

I hope he took photos of the build or any retrospective building regs will be messy.  I cannot see how they will pass it as is, as people have said above you are going to have to turn it into a proper extension / room, or separate it off from the house.

cheapest option is likely separate it.

Given the amount of house they are allowing to be bunged up, I doubt the council give a fig

The council were quite specific about not wanting houses going up if I recall and that's where the whole thing fell down?

Also I'm pretty sure they gave (and duly received) a figure.

[edit] ah fig. Wasn't an abbreviation of figure was it? [/edit]

@the-muffin-man

They might offer you advice, but probably shouldn't, and definitely can't get involved in any official capacity at this stage (unless they have a consultancy arm). It's not in their interest to offer advice here as a Building Control Body as they can't/won't charge a fee and it's highly unlikely there's any future work in it for them.

As in any walk of life, good and bad exist on both sides of the fence; there are brilliant LA's, brilliant AI's, and equally terrible of both, and surveyors within each. I don't know any Building Control Surveyor who'd just tell you to take it down (regardless of how bad their day has been), and I equally don't know many (any) LA's whose legal team would support enforcement action leading to a demolition order on a project such as this - that's a very costly process involving the courts, that has to proven to be in the public interest.

@twistedpencil That's not a bad shout, though reputable firms doing that type of work seem few and far between... It is possible to get the roof upgrade covered by a Building Regulations application, and potentially demonstrate Part L compliance with a SAP calc, thought it may still require door installation in the opening.

@sadexpunk DM me if you want any further info - I've done 15 years in Building Control, on both sides of the fence...

We declined to buy a house that had had a similar-ish conservatory-but-not bolted on. We asked the estate agent about building regs compliance, and they just said "yeah, defo, totally compliant". When I said "I'm not convinced that's possible, can you show me the evidence? If it's not got a certificate then I'll need to figure out what the consequences are, if any (aside from crap insulation), before buying." The estate agent then said something like "how would you know about building regulations? It seems like you're just looking to cause problems!" So obviously we walked...

That one was much smaller and probably wouldn't have massively affected heating costs, we just wanted to look into whether there was any possibility that if we bought it, then we might have an interested council person turn up and say "I saw some photos on Rightmove... block it up mofo!"

So, you might get lucky if selling, but some buyers aren't dumb, and some would take one look at that and say (a) that's bound to be pretty poor for heating costs, and (b) there's no way that would have complied with any recent building regs, since it's essentially a dirty great hole in the side of the house.

Conservatories are one of those things which seem like a good idea when you don't have one and have a pleasant social event at someone's home who does have one.  It is only after buying a house which has one that you realise you had that social event in the conservatory on one of the five days in the year that it was bearable.

After 10 years in our conservatory equipped house we have managed to make it all work for about 9 months of the year, thereabouts. The depths of winter it is a cold and damp horror, useful for storage but little else. Once the sun is higher it becomes a massive solar gain trap which we divert into the house. But in the middle of summer, it's hotter than a snakes arse in a wagon rut so the windows have blinds and the roof painted opaque to make the brightness bearable. But we live in the Highlands so more provence like climates like Newcastle etc are probably non viable.

We have external quality doors between house and conservatory, god help you if you have nothing.

Think your bro has identified the salient points, and confirmed by others here.

Basically it is bleeding heat and should have an "external type" door between house and conservatory, this is the cheapest fix I would guess. Along with the heating system change.

Rebuild as extension may require new foundations - i.e. basically starting again.

The opening between kitchen and conservatory may have been the original opening, cant quite guage from the photos how big it is, and it doesnt look stupidly large - can you find another house on the same estate with the same layout?

Even if it has been widened, the new lintel or beam can be fairly easily accessed with a small cut out on the plasterboard, measureing it, and getting retrospective structural calculations done. Will probably make less of a mess than sorting the heating out.

I just got an epc done on a house I m buying.  It's free as a Skipton customer so if I was your brother I d open a Skipton building society account and get one done.  Assessor came round, saw the conservatory with the existing doors from house intact, said no need to look further.

He gave us a d, which I m happy about, so can let it as is if needed.  No plans to, but at least it's an option.

Or, see what other similar houses have on the road on the epc register and use that as a base.  There may be other things he has to do, aside from reinstating house to conservatory doors.

@sadexpunk DM me if you want any further info – I’ve done 15 years in Building Control, on both sides of the fence…

ygm mate, cheers

Conservatories are one of those things which seem like a good idea when you don’t have one and have a pleasant social event at someone’s home who does have one. It is only after buying a house which has one that you realise you had that social event in the conservatory on one of the five days in the year that it was bearable.

One of the reasons why we're having a lightweight tiled roof put on ours. Recently moved in, done the leg work for an extension but won't get what we'd like from what's within the rules so this is a cheaper option that'll work.

Conservatories serve a purpose and are really only temporary structures bolted onto houses, hence no planning permission needed. Mines currently 40 degrees as gets full sun, soon as sun drops it goes down to 20.

I too am looking at alternatives.  Problem with sadex brothers one, it ll make the house a sauna in summer, and be a massive heat drain in winter.

“I saw some photos on Rightmove… block it up mofo!”

Never happened

You'd be mad to pass up the right house because it had a conservatory with no regs.

Spend a day knocking it down and you have a ready made patio.

wzzzzFree Member
“I saw some photos on Rightmove… block it up mofo!”

Never happened

I said that I wanted to understand whether there was a risk that we could be told that, not that we *were* told that. Having subsequently looked into it, I do now know that it's extremely unlikely.

You’d be mad to pass up the right house because it had a conservatory with no regs.

Spend a day knocking it down and you have a ready made patio.

Well, in this case, knocking it down would have changed it from 'decent sized kitchen diner' to 'small kitchen'. Paying for a house with the former (and priced accordingly), then spending money and effort turning it into the latter would have been pretty mad when there were other houses to choose from...