[Closed] Conservative voters, a genuine question?

35 pages

Do you have [s] concerns with your vote based on social [/s] conscience, [s]the NHS, poverty etc[/s]?

Cuppa and a Hob nob?

Context, I have voted Tory and also have voted Lib-Dem and Labour in recent elections, so may not be your typical responder. But still, respond I shall.

Do you have concerns with your vote based on social conscience, the NHS, poverty etc?

When I have voted Tory, yes, I have got those concerns.

If you are concerned about some of the above but still vote Conservative how do you reconcile that with yourself?

It's the age old balancing act. Traditionally a Tory government has been better for my job and my industry, which has meant my family is more stable and in a better position. I'm aware this makes me rather selfish.
That decision is easier to make when the parties are close to each other, such as the Blair/Cameron days as the threat to my industry was lower and the threat to the things you mention above was also lower. Right now, it is more of a challenge as both the threat and the consequence is much, much higher. Hence the clamoring for a middle ground which the Lib-Dems should occupy, and the Independent Group would like to. I won't vote Tory in any coming elections due to this renewed move to the right, in the same way as I won't vote Labour as they move left.

If you are concerned about some of the above but still vote Conservative how do you reconcile that with yourself? Not goading anyone. I am honestly looking for another view point to my own.

I have voted for most of the main parties (no particular order: Independent (for a laugh), Green, Lib Dem, Labour, Conservative, UKIP and will vote for Brexit Party next) in the past except the really extreme left (Marxist anarchy whatever) or right (supreme people whatever).

My answer is simple.

Let it be.

Nothing is perfect and you just have to take care of yourself with the best you can without relying on others.

However, I am totally against illegal poaching or killing of wild animals. 🤔

I'm guessing you don't remember 1979 and streets lined with uncollected rubbish, or the 3 day week, or the NUM enjoying beer and sandwiches at No 10 while telling the elected government how to run the country.

the 3 day week

Four days to ride? Good times.

I have to confess I like beer and sandwiches as well.

Depends. By Conservative, do you mean a gov't which follows the political science type of conservatism, or do you mean the Tory party regardless of whether they actaully behave like conservatives?
I think it is an important distinction because policies and theoretical ideology often dont go together.

I think it is an important distinction because policies and theoretical ideology often dont go together.

Which would you vote for, the party or the ideology?

For reference since being able to decide for myself I have not voted Conservative, despite both my parents being staunch supporters.

I voted Labour at my first general election (1997), and again the one after that. However, I was disillusioned by by Iraq war and increasing (IMV) 'nanny stateism' and I liked the socially-aware liberal conservatism promoted by Cameron, so voted Tory then (2005).

Of course, that turned out to be cobblers so I voted LibDem in 2010 and have done so ever since, despite their wipeout in 2015. It's sort of become a protest vote!

I've been discussing this with colleagues and friends over recent months, and most of us around my age (40) were just that bit too young to remember the effects of the Tory government in the 80's, and my parents weren't really affected like some others, so I never really connected with the visceral hatred of the Tories. However, with the recent rise of the right wing factions and the sheer muppetry on display I too have grown to loathe them. However, with the shift to the radical left I find I can't support Labour either.

LibDems are as much use as a chocolate fireguard (it's annoyed me so much I even wrote to my (LibDem) MP about how effing useless they are - why is unelected gimp Farage in the news and on the telly when actual Europhile LibDem MP's are not?

So, I actually feel quite disenfranchised.

I’m guessing you don’t remember 1979

No, and right now it is 30 years on, so I'm not sure of the relevance to today's parties. Perhaps I miss something.

Anyway.

What chekw and lunge said.

As a general rule I'd prefer LibDems but of late they're not a viable entity. Have voted for Lab, Libdem and Cons at some point in the past. For Labour when the Cons sleaze was a thing in 90s. For Cons after Blair announced he was guided by God and WMD and handing over to Gordon Clown. Lib Dems after that, when they got in, and then when they didn't. etc. Sometimes I would vote opposition purely on the basis that I don't think one party should be in for too long.

I must admit that right now I would consider overlooking an awful lot if a party declared itself officially making a stand against the Brextards. The current main two are the very rendition of the word "fail".

edit: jakester also writes what I was trying to, but has done it with more eruditelyness.

I think the common view is that Conservatives are best for the economy and that is number one. That's OK if you are happy with uncontrolled capitalism. My own view is that capitalism is in fact broadly the best economic we have to work with but left to its own devices it will inevitably increase the gap between rich and poor. Some checks are required to ensure a fairer society, which I consider to be the best outcome for all.

Far left economic models are no better in that they end up with state control - maybe someone can point me to a true example of the socialist ideal, means of production controlled by the people, etc. I'm not aware of one.

except the really extreme left (Marxist anarchy whatever) or right (supreme people whatever).

And yet you have voted UKIP and will vote Brexit? Both seem to me to be damned near fascist.

1979

No, and right now it is 30 years on

Sorry to make you feel old, but it's 40 years ago, not 30!

Ha . . . bails beat me to it 🙂

No, and right now it is 30 years on, so I’m not sure of the relevance to today’s parties. Perhaps I miss something.

About 10 years.

People vote Conservative to get a stable predictable government that puts the economy at the heart of government.

That worked out well.....

And yet you have voted UKIP and will vote Brexit? Both seem to me to be damned near fascist.

Before the admission of certain members to UKIP.

Yes, I shall vote for Brexit Party next. 😀

Fascist? According to my marxists anarchy friends everyone, apart from themselves, is fascist. 🤔 🤣

Before the admission of certain members to UKIP.

It's always been right wingers but given you voted for a laugh and to leave the EU that says all we need to know about your stance.

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.
So it goes in a circle, innit. Labour - Tory - Labour - Tory.
Yo-yo dieting.

“No, and right now it is 30 years on, so I’m not sure of the relevance to today’s parties. Perhaps I miss something“

Yes - mainly that the current Labour Party leadership have life long commitments that would return us to the economic malaise of the 1970s. They may have put a new veneer on the policy but it’s fundamentally the same. A quick review of the history of Venezuela over the last 10 years provides a contemporary case study in how well the policies work.

the 3 day week

Happened under Heath, a Tory govt as I unfortunately recall (as a then short-trousered Guardian reader).

NHS would be a shambles no matter who is in charge.

Some times you get a good experience - but mostly you feel you're banging your head against a brick wall with no-one taking responsibility and just wanting to pass you on to another department to get it off their desks.

What are these "extreme left" labour policies I keep hearing so much about?

I could almost never vote Tory, but I have some extended family members who are what could be called compassionate conservatives. The reasoning is as follows:

The job of government is not to interfere with people's lives, it is to provide the minimum structure for a country to operate. Because people should not rely on the state, society should operate effectively in its own, so that the market economy will provide for everyone. Given low state involvement and low taxes the economy flourishes, everyone can have a decent paying job, and look themselves accordingly. No-one should need bailing out, and anyone who wants to contribute more can do so via philanthropic organisations of their choice, rather than mandatory taxation.

I don't believe this would work, by the way, any more than pseudo-communist state run everything would work. But that's the argument as I understand it.

The question would be more pertinent if we genuinely had a Conservative party to vote for.

It’s always been right wingers but given you voted for a laugh and to leave the EU that says all we need to know about your stance.

🤔

Nothing is perfect and you just have to take care of yourself with the best you can without relying on others.

I've had several operations under general anaesthetic. I think those were the points where I was most reliant on others… but we are all always reliant on other people. Always.

What are these “extreme left” labour policies I keep hearing so much about?

Corbyn's inner circle (Milne, Murray and co) left the communist party to join Labour and his team in 2016 (after the EU referendum went the way they wanted). Do you trust them not to implement "extreme left" policies once they are the power behind the throne of a "Labour" government?

So, I actually feel quite disenfranchised.

You are far from alone there.

or the 3 day week,

Which almost no company of any size ever actually adhered to.

Conservative party to vote for.

Pretty much my point

Which would you vote for, the party or the ideology?

Well, I'm definitely on the conservative side of Corbyn.

To that point, read a really interesting article about how the westminster system is falling apart because MPs have no power, the leader holds all the cards. So you aren't voting for a party, or a political idealogy but a leader, or a leader's ideology, which MPs and voters are expected to line up behind.

I’ve never voted Tory but there’s no reason why I wouldn’t vote for a ‘good’ Tory party leadership. I certainly wouldn’t now with the likes of the ERG wielding so much power.

John Major was a decent PM, not perfect, but none are, Thatcher, I think she played to her audience, nasty, but not evil. if only CMD had gone in for some pointless postering with our EU partners like she did maybe we could have avoided this mess. CMD was a weak man, a coward really. IDS is a horrible turn, Hague was a grown up young Tory.

What Chew and Jakester said. I feel disenfranchised as part of the 48% that don’t want to leave the EU but don’t have an effective voting option. wTAF has happened to the LibDems? Why are they not on tv all the time when Farage is?
Tories move to the right is not good at all, and Labours to the left leaves a huge gap in the middle for “sensible” politics. I don’t get it.
I think David Lammy is on the right track, worryingly.

Why are they not on tv all the time when Farage is?

Because the BBC don't invite them?

I don't get the whole "Lib Dems" aren't viable rubbish. If they best match your political views then vote for them. I may well double the Lib Dem vote count here but I'd rather that than just try desperately to be a "winner" and pick the likely Tory/Labour MP.

The 2 party dominant system isn't fit for purpose. Pretty much the only conclusion I think you can come to. Ultimately there's a need to be a long hard discussion about how politics are done. It was never the EU needing reformed, it is Westminster.

I am not blinkered enough to just vote for one party and think I am a very middle ground voter, with no extreme views. I also think politicians/political parties are a bunch of liars who will promise whatever they believe will win them power and happily change these promises once in power if they had to, so its often a case of voting for the best of a bad bunch as i never agree 100% with any party. I change my vote depending on a) what party, at the time, i feel can run our country best. ie best leader/politicians. b) what state are we in/ what do i feel we need as a country to focus on fixing c) who is going to help and support me/my family best depending where we are at among other things.

I feel as a country, too long with one party in power is bad as we lean to far that way so need bringing back/changing priorities and vote a different way. The voters have a knack of doing this anyway hence we go from labour to tory to labour etc anyway over time which helps balance things. Glad we change and are not just a one party country.....whats that called? 😉

Oldnpastit:

I’m guessing you don’t remember 1979 and streets lined with uncollected rubbish, or the 3 day week,

That was 1974 and a Tory government - seems like you don't remember it either

Because the BBC don’t invite them?

Maybe this is correct but I think there’s a definite lack of noise coming from them. I’m no pr expert but I’m sure you need to be saying something to be newsworthy and get on the tv/radio.

I think Seosamh77 is spot on as well, but the opportunity to go to PR was properly messed up/or obstructed wasn’t it.

That was 1974 and a Tory government – seems like you don’t remember it either

Labour were in power 74-79 weren't they?

I've voted Labour, Lib-Dem, Conservative & Independent over the years all fro varying reasons.

I was swayed away from (New) Labour for several reasons including Iraq, the growth of the rich/poor divide, Brown's mishandling of the banking sector &/or favours for his mates & eventually most things Blair.

The problem is I have not since seen any reason to return. Milliband was a disaster & I have absolutely no faith or trust in Corbyn or his cronies who, as mentioned by kelvin earlier, have questionable pasts (& motives?).

The current system is fundamentally broken IMHO however, those that can change it are those that stand to lose out if they do. In fact, the only positive I've taken from Brexit is the fact that these idiots in Westminster will no longer have anyone in Brussels to blame for their shortcoming & might just have to do some actual work.

I think David Lammy is on the right track, worryingly.

Worryingly? Why? Please explain?

Corbyn’s inner circle (Milne, Murray and co) left the communist party to join Labour and his team in 2016 (after the EU referendum went the way they wanted). Do you trust them not to implement “extreme left” policies once they are the power behind the throne of a “Labour” government?

Not really answered my question...

Re-Nationalising utilities and trains isn't exactly extreme considering plenty of them are run for us by other countries nationalised companies so we pay them and then the use the profits from the UK to subsidise their own countries infrastructure.

That was 1974 and a Tory government – seems like you don’t remember it either

Late 70s and it was Labour.

3 day week started jan 1974 under conservatives

[according to wiki - just in case drac’s “looking things up online” embargo is still in 👍]

ps I've never voted tory in my puff, just to clear that up! Just expressing my opinion that the system is gubbed! 😆

I’m beginning to worry about the rise of far right populism and nationalism across the continent (and in the us).
I was talking to an older person who told me that they wanted to leave eu because it wasn’t what they signed up to. I asked about the peace project aspect that’s been a major thread since the beginning. They told me that wasn’t needed because “that sort of thing couldn’t happen now”, which strikes me as forgetting the lessons history.
Nationalism is creating divisions as it always does.

That was 1974 and a Tory government – seems like you don’t remember it either

Nah, winter of discontent was 78 - 79 under a labour government.

3 day week started jan 1974 under conservatives

[according to wiki – just in case drac’s “looking things up online” embargo is still in 👍]

Your Google skills are slipping.

Current Labour policies are not that radical. Don't believe the hype.

Whether Corbyn has fluffed his big chance by losing too much support over his stance on Brexit is another matter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week

3 day week: (from 1st Jan 74. I remember the power cuts) Tories. Took us into the EU and everything got better...

winter of discontent was 78/79 yed. But the 3-day week was Tory incompetence. I was there.

What's very interesting is the numbe of people who just assume that the industrial problems were only apparent under Labour.
Why is that?

Tory propaganda from the 1980s chiefly, I'd suggest.

winter of discontent was 78/79 yed. But the 3-day week was Tory incompetence. I was there.

Oh aye seems a bit mixed up, talking about 2 different events.  😳

I'm not a tory voter but have lived in a ward for 30 years that would vote for the proverbial donkey with a blue rosette on it - despairing at the choice of local election candidates. I remember the 3-day week and power-cuts in the 1970s as well as the miner's strike in the 1980s as I was doing an industrial relations module as part of my degree at the same time - it prompted much debate. Our politics is suffering due to the 2-party systems and the failure to seek compromise - we have successive Governments that fail to plan and make meaningful investment become the terms of parliament - investment in infrastructure, social housing and care is suffering in comparison to our European peers.

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.

That is the myth. Check out government spending of the last 40 years or so. Tories have spent a considerable amount more and have hardly ever run surpluses. IIRC Labour have had at least three. Tories I think perhaps one.

Not that I'm advocating that as balancing the books is a load of bollocks too. If the public sector runs a defecit then the private sector should mop up the slack in resources. But MMT is the next level of discussion.

Never understand why this isn't more widely known.

With the first question I would say Conservatives generally think the 'market' takes care of things best. It clearly doesn't - as start by defining 'best' and it will only serve a few the best.

While we're on the subject I would go one further and ask the average Church-going Tory how they reconcile Christian values with neo-liberal ideology?

Because the two are in no way compatible.

handybar wrote:

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.

Yet the national debt has almost doubled unded the Tory government, up from 1 trillion in 2009/10 to 1.8 trillion - and this despite Tory Austerity?

Your Google skills are slipping.

I got told off for using google so I used wiki instead
Saved me from getting confused over two different things 👍

Awwww! Or we still crying over that? Poor Neal.

Yeah, If you like.

I just thought it was a bit sad for a moderator to be so desperate to score points that’s all.

Didn’t add anything to the discussion, just had a pointless dig at someone posting something that was actually relevant to the discussion.

But hey, you carry on, whatever floats yer boat 👍

Ok. It's genuinely been interesting.

Some opinions and views I find alien, some I hadn't truly explored in my mind if I'm honest and some I very much agree with.

kelvin

Subscriber

Corbyn’s inner circle (Milne, Murray and co) left the communist party to join Labour and his team in 2016 (after the EU referendum went the way they wanted). Do you trust them not to implement “extreme left” policies once they are the power behind the throne of a “Labour” government?

Seumas Milne has never been a member of the communist party, and joined the Labour Party in 1979 (according to the Times). HTH.

Not really answered my question…

What's in the manifesto has never proven to be the complete business of an elected government. Ever.

joined the Labour Party in 1979

You are quite correct. He was Straight Left though, yes? And Murray? Both Straight Left & CPB?

Anyway, I voted Labour at the last election… but claiming that key people running that party now are not "hard left" is laughable. Both main parties are being dragged to more extreme positions… for me it's more of a worry where the Conservative party is going… but there's plenty of worry left for the party that would seek to replace them as the main party of government.

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little on other people but plenty on themselves.

Didn't Osborne buy a horse paddock on expenses? How austere of him

Showed their hand long ago and what they are all about. Always seem to be riots when they're in power!

Wonder what became of the women who was trampled by riot police horses in the poll tax riots. You know one of the "hooligans" "thugs" "criminals" "pond life" photo's of participants named and shamed all over the tabloids, yet she seems to have been erased from history.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/zoom-in-to-mounted-police-charging-through-crowd-of-news-footage/1B03323_0004

handybar wrote:

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.

rone wrote:
That is the myth. Check out government spending of the last 40 years or so. Tories have spent a considerable amount more and have hardly ever run surpluses. IIRC Labour have had at least three. Tories I think perhaps one.

nbt wrote:

Yet the national debt has almost doubled unded the Tory government, up from 1 trillion in 2009/10 to 1.8 trillion – and this despite Tory Austerity?

Simplifying a bit:

Handybar is only semantically wrong, Labour overstretches itself resulting with the Conservatives having to pick up the tab.

Simplifying a bit:

Handybar is only semantically wrong, Labour overstretches itself resulting with the Conservatives having to pick up the tab.

Some data actually shows that over the 70 years or so up to 2014 or thereabouts Labour borrows less than the Conservatives and Labour has always repaid debt more often than the Conservatives, and has always repaid more debt, on average.

I don't think we've ever had a genuinely conservative government in fiscal terms. Classic conservative, yes. Social conservatives. Even neo-conservative (you could argue Tony Blair was closer to being neo conservative than anything else)

So the justification for voting Tory, so far, is because they are not Labour / Corbyn / Blair / Winter of Discontent?

We just need British Leyland, Scargill / Miners, and Michael Foot for a full house bingo.

Yep the 1970s were terrible with the lowest level of inequality in the post war period and people on average incomes could buy houses even in London. Outrageous!

So the justification for voting Tory

Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them. I would guess that is why most people vote tory and explains why on average people sway to tory vote when they hit their 40's and are more stable, have more money etc,.

Interesting to see the results of the last 50 years of tory biased media in this thread and how that helps to get the votes of people who are not even better off themselves with a tory government let alone the even less privileged.

It's scary how many seemingly smart people revert to cliché when talking politics.

^^ good point kerley! I live in a Tory constituency and know people who are struggling and renting but have only ever voted tory. You hear 'I couldn't vote for Corbyn' so you ask which policies they don't like and then they look a bit bemused, go quiet and then the whataboutery starts. Neo-liberalism has screwed this country and a bit of Keynesianism would be good for business too. At the last election Corbyn's manifesto was costed (unlike the tory's) and received support from 150 international economists. Anyway, what did that loathsome BJ say about business?

Interesting to see the results of the last 50 years of tory biased media in this thread and how that helps to get the votes of people who are not even better off themselves with a tory government let alone the even less privileged.

Exactly this - as Nye Bevan pointed out, the genius of the Tories is to convince people to vote for them even though it is actually against their own interests.

https://www.azquotes.com/quote/604343

I used to be a Conservative voter for the reasons earlier in this thread, but even before Brexit it was too much for me to swallow. And now they've really jumped the shark. I'm not alone I suspect.

The rise of the banks changed everything. The tories would have happily let them grow as did New Labour, indeed the tories release the big bang and subsequent deregulation. But the rise of the banks was a global phenomenon and no country could really escape it - basically a form of American soft power.
I'm still surprised how little anger is directed at the banking sector. Much of it has instead been deflected to other things and contributed to things like brexit, trump, etc yet the bankers still pocket their bonuses.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

I think 1997 was the first year I could officially vote. I didn't because I was 18 & couldn't have cared less about politics.

The Lib Dems probably align with my personal views most these days. I would be more likely to vote for Tory over Labour though. Blair, Brown & Corbyn have been a succession of weapons grade d*ckheads.

The reality is, I just don't care enough about politics though, and nor do I want to.

Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them. I would guess that is why most people vote tory and explains why on average people sway to tory vote when they hit their 40’s and are more stable, have more money etc,.

You obviously didn't read my post then?

' a succession of weapons grade d*ckheads.'
That's the kind of analysis, comparison and critique that guides some people's voting intentions.

What @jakester said. Tories and Labour lurched too far right and left, so will vote Lib Dem again and hope and pray that lots of other people do too!

Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them.

You know this is an argument and criticism directed at Tory voters that I have heard many times over the years however does it not equally apply to the majority of Labour voters? How many of them vote for Labour "…selfishly as it is best for them"?