 You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Believe it or not, most teachers agree with you. It's just idiotic education ministers who don't get it.
I agree they do. It is 'the system' that fails and leads us this way.
I think maybe he means that the money parents spend on private education would be spent elsewhere in the economy. But that also doesn't make sense because it's still being spent and spent locally too - the teachers spend their wages locally, the building upkeep and so on is all local. But maybe he means something else.
Nothing to do with money, it would help provide more political impetus to improve the state system if privates were banned.
It is 'the system' that fails and leads us this way.
Well you have to be careful talking about 'the system' because some people might take that to mean the whole of institutional education. Whereas it's really meddling politicians' fault that we are overwhelmed with metrics; most teachers teachers are doing everything they can to push back.
This article, and other stuff I have read, seems to imply that trying to give your own child every advantage you can afford is morally wrong, or even scandalous
If thats what you think the article says then I hope your kids are at a better school than the one you wentvto
Well AA you will have to join the queue for my affections you little charmer. I felt your handbag brush my cheek and I am somewhat Sewell-ised.
I read this bit
If policy makers are determined to increase social mobility in a climate where ‘room at the top’ is not expanding then the factors that limit downward mobility will need to be addressed
as a threat to my efforts to prevent my children from mobilising downward. IS there another meaning to that sentence that you could help me with in a constructive fashion?
PS you and the other haters need to coordinate your efforts, some seem to think that it is good that I feel uncomfortable, you are saying that I have misread the article. Can you clarify, does this mean you think I need not feel uncomfortable?
PPS Either way I don't feel uncomfortable, I pay a shit load of tax which I hope the govt puts to good use to help everyone, I'm extremely happy about that, I feel privileged to have been born in a country like this. What is left is mine to do what I legally want with.
And this bit
The fact that middle class families are successful in hoarding the best opportunities in the education system and in the labour market is a real barrier to the upward social mobility of less advantaged children.
I'm not hoarding anything. I don't even get what this statement really means. So perhaps your amazing pedagogue status can help me out, cos I'm a bit thick and my school let me down.
Still dont think it says what you are trying to get outraged about.
No worries, perhaps we can discuss this? What I love about your advances are the way when you think that someone gets it wrong, you help them to ease their way into the right way of thinking. I'm sure this is reflected in the way you behave in the classroom/rugby field with your charges. How lucky they must feel.
I was right about the persecution complex then.
Try to keep your toys in the pram.
Worth a read before paying for your child's private education http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/middle-class-advantages-outweighed-by-having-to-live-among-middle-class-people-20150727100503
[quote=toys19 ]What is left is mine to do what I legally want with.
Well I suppose that qualification rules out the two obvious alternatives to educating your children 😉
Insulate, Sherman. Insulate!
Well I suppose that qualification rules out the two obvious alternatives to educating your children
I'm no lord.
The world is round...
No, it's not...
It's an oblate spheroid 😉
Anyway, if anyone wants to unpack this, then "Inequality and the 1%" by Danny Dorling has a chapter on education - including the adverse impact private education has on state education and the opportunities of those educated in the state sector...
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inequality-1-Danny-Dorling/dp/1781685851 ]inequality and the 1%[/url]
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inequality-1-Danny-Dorling/dp/1781685851
Whereas it's really meddling politicians' fault that we are overwhelmed with metrics; most teachers teachers are doing everything they can to push back.
No, the system is also the 'customers' (parents) and the fear of getting it wrong, not just politicians. Up here we are one step removed from such meddling...
Check out some thinking on the rise of snow plough parenting - success at any cost, and never the wonderful learning experience that is failure or boredom...
[i]I believe that if you have the funds or means to provide for your kids futures WITHOUT damaging your own then fair enough. Otherwise you do what you can for them whilst still leaving yourself a life and let them find their way. [/i]
I take it you've either not children, or are just an 80's child who is only interested in ME.
I was brought up an old-fashioned way, one where you still put yourself out for your children - as my parents (and grandparents) did for me. And also one where I now put myself out for my parents too.
I don't really get why toys19 is getting so much grief for wanting the best for his children.
No matter what you do, it is not going to be perfect because too many factors are way beyond your control.
You can put your kid into the perfect school, and then along comes one wrong teacher, or a bullying pupil, and it becomes a toxic environment.
About the only thing you can be sure of doing right is putting your personal time rather than money into your child's development. Teach them how to handle unfairness, adversity, violence and to expect problems. Best of all is if you can make them aware of their own decision making processes.
And if they don't appreciate what you do for them, you've probably done it right.
They'll only realise that when they have their own kids - but they'll probably only remember the bits where you were tough on them. 🙂
I take it you've either not children, or are just an 80's child who is only interested in ME.I was brought up an old-fashioned way, one where you still put yourself out for your children - as my parents (and grandparents) did for me. And also one where I now put myself out for my parents too.
It's a very boomer attitude to take I think - not even 80s - seeing how Asian families operate was an eye opener. Wifes parents are wealthy but only in the sense of the property that they own, they basically used up all their capital and destroyed their cash flow to send her to university in the uk.
I don't think society gives younger people enough credit either, she's seen how hard it was for her parents to send her here - consequently she achieved a 78 percent average at university...winning two prizes and coming top of her class. Youngsters do appreciate effort, they take things for granted when they see things have been easy for their parents or for whatever reasons do not respect them.
I agree with epicyclo for a change 🙂
I think toys19 is being paranoid, I don't read that article as being particularly anti parents helping their kids, but more shameful that we have a society where getting a leg up has such a big affect and disadvantages poorer kids.
Having said that we have three interns here next week (sons of the MD of one of our Middle Eastern customers), so will be helping them get a leg up for the next 2-3 months.....
don't really get why toys19 is getting so much grief for wanting the best for his children.
He's not is he. I thought he was getting grief for thinking the article he posted suggested he should nottry to do the best for his kids. He seems to be confusing what some people think we as a society should strive for with individuals trying the best for their kids.
Given the thread is about parental RESPONSIBILITY it is telling that there is so much resistance to responsibility to make the best possible investment in life - the education of your children.
It's a mixed up oblate spheroid that we inhabit!!!
it is telling that there is so much resistance to responsibility to make the best possible investment in life - the education of your children.
Depends what you think that investment should be. Do you think it should be a financial investment in spending a lot of money to send them to private school? Do you think it should be a time investment in being at home with them as much as possible, not working long hours away from home to get more money? Do you think it should be a social investment by letting them go to a local school with all their friends and children from all backgrounds so they get a more balanced view of society?
waaaaaah.... nail on head Ben..
I've met some serious losers with fantastic educations and some amazing people that never even saw the inside of a school
It's very simple Ben, it should be the one that best suits your children - there is no one best answer. But it is not for others to tell you what to do or to use simple anecdote to suggest what is best. Horses for courses. But, and this is the other simple bit, it Is the most important investment you can make, be it time, money or whatever.
I do smile at the assumptions about "balanced" though - it's a bit like the "real people" argument. Flawed from the outset...
If the responsibility is to chose whats best for your kids who do you consider has not done that THM?
it should be the one that best suits your children
What does that mean, though? Should I have put my daughter through a series of tests when she was a baby to determine whether she should go to private school or not? Sure, there are some kids with special need where it's obvious that they'll need a certain educational path, but for most kids it's down to the parents' beliefs about what's best for their child.
Reading a completely different article, but this was relevant:
What he seemed to miss was that it might be attributable to this mum and dad that they made him one of the four per cent who attend fee-paying schools. Making an educational choice is one thing but knowingly setting your child apart and telling them they are superior with a higher expectation of entitlement is a social division which not everybody copes with.
http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/07/29/making-the-weather/
When I hear about kids being hothoused by pushy parents, given tutors and extra lessons and lined up for private school and Oxbridge, I feel sorry for them. They're not being allowed to be children, the poor things.
It's very simple Ben, it should be the one that best suits your children - there is no one best answer. But it is not for others to tell you what to do or to use simple anecdote to suggest what is best. Horses for courses. But, and this is the other simple bit, it Is the most important investment you can make, be it time, money or whatever.
I agree that there is no single answer - kind of obvious. It's the [i]it's not for others to tell you bit [/i] that bothers me. Parents are by definition amateurs. Child 1 is a voyage into the complete unknown; child 2,3 and so on are barely any better especially if they have differed traits to the first. Whilst each child is different and parents like to cling on to the fact that little Jonny is unique and special in every way, there are experts out there with experience of hundreds of remarkably similar kids to draw on. Only the most arrogant parents march on with a 'I know what's best for my child' attitude ignoring all advise, and it usually ends poorly.
Private education means more pay:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33775082
The report - Private pay progression - says half of this difference can be explained by factors such as prior academic attainment and the type of university an individual attended.
businesswoman
Graduates without a private schooling were marginally more likely to stay in top jobs
But it says the remaining half cannot be explained by these factors and is likely to be down to non-academic factors such as articulacy, assertiveness and other important soft skills.
Thought this worth a look. Seems to be a big elephant in the room not mentioned in that list of factors affecting the pay diffetential.
anagallis_arvensis - Member
Private education means more pay:
"...But it says the remaining half cannot be explained by these factors and is likely to be down to non-academic factors such as articulacy, assertiveness and other important soft skills."....
Soft skills such as nepotism and cronyism? 🙂
Or parental support/influence/interference (you chose)
Wow that report really has tight conclusions there, even the headline writers must have struggled with that one.
It would be interesting to see if the privately educated kids go into similar careers as parents. Although I suppose high earning parents are more likely to have kids who go private so it might be tough to do.
Private school teachers don't get more pay though.
I taught in the state sector from 1996-2005 and private until 2010. Took a pay cut, was denied part time hrs when I wanted to return from maternity, and worked more hours (yes more days per year) than when I worked in state schools.
But in general it was a much easier job. You don't have to be a good teacher to get good results in a private school, the students want to learn and encourage each other. I have lost my classroom edge now and do not think I could ever work in the state sector again. Mr (I assume) Arvensis, you work in Private don't you? Did you ever work in the state sector, I would be interested in your comments on the differences?
Note -The best teaching I have ever seen was in the worst school I ever worked in, one of the worst schools in the UK for class size, poverty, and level of intake. The schools value added was amazing.
I am sure there is nepotism and cronyism, but there is something else that comes with a private education - very high peer and parental expectation, not just academic but social and career wise. This leads to 6th formers leaving school with a huge amount of confidence and self expectation. Exactly what Ben Cooper derides, but it seems valuable and positive to me, based on the kids I have met both during and after my private school teaching career.
I now deal with Uni students and those from private backgrounds exude soft skills, diplomatic in their approach to problems, confident in their abilities, often charming with excellent manners, and generally well informed. They also listen well. My treatment of them is equal to those from the state sector, I don't know their parents and have nothing to gain from their reaction to my services.
It is easy to assume that nepotism and cronyism are responsible for their successes, but I feel that the parental and peer expectation creates and environment for success.
The findings come after accountancy firm Ernst and Young (EY) announced it is removing all academic and education details from its trainee application process.
I would be willing to bet that private educated kids still do better even after this.
leaving school with a huge amount of confidence and self expectation.
Fine line between this and arrogance and self entitlement
Its not hard to see what sector some posters went to when you use this filter.
Mr (I assume) Arvensis, you work in Private don't you? Did you ever work in the state sector, I would be interested in your comments on the differences?
Dr actually 😉
I work in the state sector, have never set foot in a private school ( apart from our schools annual massive loss to the local private school at rugby). I have worked at a uni and can confirm what you say about confidence etc from private school kids. In many they were utterly confident they were right even when they had no clue what they were on about. I have no idea if this is a parental effect or due to school.
As for pay, I'm not so sure anecdotally all the people I know who have left state for private say they get paid moreaybe they just say this.
Fine line between this and arrogance and self entitlement
That is true, but it is also in the eye of the beholder is it not?
I went to a 1980's comprehensive FYI.
My apologies, I was alluding to your gender.Dr actually
My anecdote, does only apply to my experience, but all my colleagues and other friends who work in Private are paid less then State. Friend at Sherborne who is battling at the moment to get a pay rise commensurate with state sector.
Private school teachers don't get more pay though.
This one does if measured by annual salary-significantly so. It is one of the most expensive schools in the country though. But my effective hourly rate has dropped markedly since going to the dark side.
Do you work sat mornings, two weeks extra in the summer hols on activites week. Contracted to come in a week before school starts after the summer.
After school clubs/activities every night that you have to run?
Lunch time clubs?
Depends what you think that investment should be. Do you think it should be a financial investment in spending a lot of money to send them to private school? Do you think it should be a time investment in being at home with them as much as possible, not working long hours away from home to get more money? Do you think it should be a social investment by letting them go to a local school with all their friends and children from all backgrounds so they get a more balanced view of society?
This. My kids crave my time and attention more than anything else, so that's what they get. I doubt very much that their lives would be significantly improved if I owned a newer car, or went on posh holidays instead of camping.
Friend at Sherborne who is battling at the moment to get a pay rise commensurate with state sector.
Should have the balls to move then.
Do you work sat mornings, two weeks extra in the summer hols on activites week. Contracted to come in a week before school starts after the summer.
After school clubs/activities every night that you have to run?
Lunch time clubs?
I work sat mornings or sunday mornings or weekend afternoons, have to, its not directed time though. The holiday thing is a red herring private schools have longer holidays. I do catch up or dt's pretty much every day at lunch or after school.
The holiday thing is a red herring private schools have longer holidays
Yes indeed but I had to work 3 weeks of those, that was my point, I had assumed everyone knows that Private have longer holidays. Most of my friends in state sector walk out the door on last day of school and go away for 6 weeks only thinking about work the weekend before they come back. Which is a holiday they need as its so bloody knackering/demanding.
Anywa to be clear, I was not being critical, I was a asking convert what has contributed to his reduction in effective hourly rate and illustrating how many hrs I had to do.
The Sherborne friend is attmepting to do exactly that, but you know how difficult it is, to leave for nxt academic year she has to have given notice last term. Its not like normal jobs where you can accept an offer and then change your mind when your current boss agrees to give you a raise.
I don't want to turn this into a willy waving 'who works the longest/hardest' competition but as I say I have worked in both. I can only talk anecdotally about the 3 state schools I worked in for 10 yrs and the independent boarding (the boarding bit is probably crucial in the comparison) I work in now but the difference in the amount I work is significant. Life changing significant. I can't tell you the number of marriage breakups on the staff here. It's also pretty ruthless - the moment you are considered to be underperforming you are gone. Everyone I know on the staff has an exit strategy ready for the day.
Well I don't have a willy so..
db, out of interest.....
When you speak of privately-educated children being more confident, personable, articulate etc....how can you be sure that its not your own attitude to these children that's generating that response? Putting them at ease, letting them relax, etc.
Its just that you state above that you already know that they're privately educated- observer bias at play here?
See, I've always wondered if, deep down, a lot of us working-class kids are subconsciously genuflecting.
No offence intended btw, just wondering.
Its just that you state above that you already know that they're privately educated- observer bias at play here?
Where did I state that?
I'm not offended but let me assure you I do know about confirmation bias and many other logical fallacies.
When I meet them I don't know their backgrounds, but I can guess pretty fast.
Eye contact, clear speech, manners, and well defined purpose of speech are more common in my anecdotal experience.
Of course nobody is immune to observer bias, but before I worked in private sector I had no such bias - I just did not know anything about it.
You could accuse any of the other psoters on here of the same thing.
Epicyclo mentioned nepotism and cronyism, does he have evidence/experience of that? It is easy to say that private education is part of a club that promotes its own but it could be possible that it is just better at producing individuals who are more ready, able and prepared to be leaders. (and expectant)
For dbcooper:-
My working week last year, as in contracted hours expected on site:-
Monday - 0800-2030 (lessons to 5.30pm, then an activity before dinner then an assembly that finishes at 8.30pm
Tuesday - 0800-1530 - my half day! I get to go at 3.30pm if I can - 50/50 I get to go. We all get one of these a week.
Wednesday - 0800-1900 - lessons to lunchtime then the afternoon is filled up with curriculum meetings, reviews, tutorials and drop in coursework support. tutor time 5.15-6pm then assembly to 7pm
Thursday - 0800-2030 - lessons to 5.30pm then an early activity, dinner then a late activity.
Friday - 0800-2300 - lessons to 5.30pm then on duty on a boarding house until 11pm. Actually on duty all night in a flat so could be called upon during the night.
Saturday - 0700-1300. Breakfast duty then academic lessons until 1pm.
Additionally one in 3 weekends I'll be on duty for the weekend. That means being on site Saturday afternoon, evening and night (sleeping in a flat in the boarding house) and then through until 10pm on Sunday evening. Most of it is pretty light in terms of work save half a dozen sign ins and then organising an evening activity for about 30 boarders (movie night, BBQ etc).
Throughout the year we are expected to do 6 'all-in' weekends - 5 academic an one community driven. On an academic one I'll have groups of GCSE or A level students getting coursework support, lectures etc or whatever is appropriate for the subject - That's Saturday 1400-1700 and Sunday 1000-1700. On the community one I'll be supervising kids doing something positive for the community usually involving manual labour for similar sort of hours.
All staff need to be involved taking a trip in holiday time. My usual one is a week in Swaziland working on a water for primary school project.
All inset is done in school holiday time (rather than inset days in term time with the state system). Last year I had 6 days worth of compulsory inset in the holidays.
We run the intake assessment (entrance tests) in the holiday time - 3 days.
Next week as a department head I am compulsorily in school for 2 days for A level results then one day for the GCSE results the week after.
To be fair bar the odd meeting I don't have any commitments/detentions etc in the lunchtimes.
Sounds very similar to my experience. I wasn't even lucky enough to abroad that often though. As a junior staff member I had to run the local or Uk based activities. I did go to france one year for a week..
But we all know that whilst it sounds like a holiday, but often isn't. I wanted to be at home with my kids.
dbcooper - Member
...Epicyclo mentioned nepotism and cronyism, does he have evidence/experience of that? It is easy to say that private education is part of a club that promotes its own but it could be possible that it is just better at producing individuals who are more ready, able and prepared to be leaders.
Only anecdotal - from my own experiences as a business owner and as a reasonably substantial employer before I retired. The local business association was forever promoting the output of the local private school amongst us. The sales pitch was pure class distinction stuff and quite nauseating as far as I was concerned.
Epicyclo mentioned nepotism and cronyism, does he have evidence/experience of that? It is easy to say that private education is part of a club that promotes its own but it could be possible that it is just better at producing individuals who are more ready, able and prepared to be leaders. (and expectant)
I expect its both.
Convert, why work at such a place if you think you could earn as much with less work elsewhere?
anagallis_arvensis - Member
I work in the state sector, have never set foot in a private school
I am surprised by that Dr. Makes your insight all the more incredible.
But you should try it, it might be another surprise!
Convert, why work at such a place if you think you could earn as much with less work elsewhere?
Vocation?
Convert, why work at such a place if you think you could earn as much with less work elsewhere?
I don't. As I said I earn substantially more, especially when you take the whole package into account. My hourly rate is not good simply because I have to be at work so much.
I stay because for the moment I love it. To be honest I had had it with teaching before I came here. It's quite an alternative place (it's far more liberal than most schools and in terms of culture probably nothing like your preconceptions about public schools would have you imagine) which probably helps. The relationship with the kids it brilliant; it is a genuine community unlike anything I have experienced outside of my time in the forces. For the subject I teach I have opportunities that would not be available anywhere else (private or state). Students (paid and on scholarships) come to the school specifically to do my subject and most of my A level students go on to do the subject at university so the motivation is incredible. There will become a time when I either burn out or my face does not fit and I'll be gone but for the moment it works for me.
"The findings come after accountancy firm Ernst and Young (EY) announced it is removing all academic and education details from its trainee application process."
<I>I would be willing to bet that private educated kids still do better even after this. </I>
this is where I work and I interview quite a bit- of my team of 8, myself and one other went to private school, the rest are state school. From my experience, it isn't the case that private school candidates perform any better (or worse) than those from state school.
I was personally surprised to read the press recently about the preference in the big firms for privately educated - I've worked in other firms, over a period of 20 years, where I can see it would have been an advantage , but here and now, I don't see the private school on the CV adding anything.
I recruit a lot and frankly never give the school more than a cursory glance. Not a determining factor IME. The individual is what counts rather than some comprehensive generalisation.....
why work at such a place if you think you could earn as much with less work elsewhere?
I know this was aimed at Convert and not at me, but as I said for me it was easier. It was less stressful and actually quite pleasant.
The individual is what counts rather than some comprehensive generalisation.....
I don't see the private school on the CV adding anything.
I agree with both of these statements.
There is also an issue with statistics and how they are applied. The statistics show that private educated kids do better in the logn run, so some people apply their own prejudices and theories (as I did).
But one must remember that many private schools are selective, and private schools are only a small proportion fo the cohort under study.
am surprised by that Dr. Makes your insight all the more incredible.
But you should try it, it might be another surprise!
I have never claimed to have any insight to the private sector apart from people leaving the state sector in large numbers and never returning. I'd love to spend some time at one and see what I could learn and take back with me but I doubt that will ever happen. I wont work in one its not what floats my boat. I always inagine people like convert love the subject first and enjoy seeing people progress in it. I love the struggle of getting the reluctant to work and make something of themselves, the subject comes second.
Convert without going into details it sounds like a lot of what your workload is has similarities with state slt whilst you sound like you are at a step below that as a head of department. I would guess thats why pay and expectations, lets not call it work load as many a nqt work unbelievable hours, are higher.
But one must remember that many private schools are selective,
and no doubt much better lets be honest.
I love the struggle of getting the reluctant to work and make something of themselves
Admirable. I did this for 10 odd years and it was very tiring. I hope to never do it again, was thankless.
and no doubt much better lets be honest.
I guess its what you define as better - if producing kids who are well rounded, useful, and potent is what you want then yes I agree entirely.
They must spend the huge sums of money on something worth while and the kids do end up earning more.
My experience echoes that of the OP, the money is primarily spent on small classes. our school was materially falling apart at the seams, classes all well below 20 kids.
Added to kids that want to work, and parents that will back you up, and we have a winner.
Aside from the staff and management my private school experience was comparitavely blissful. I really enjoyed knowing the kids and the parents and my challenge was how to maximise their learning, not how to minimise disruption.
Surely all teachers must think that small classes are a good idea (HINT this means spending money on moar teechers!!!)