[Closed] Colorado - 'too much' tax from marijuana

Lifer - Member

That's got to be a big nail in the coffin of prohibition, surely?

Evidence and facts have little to do with it 🙁 Reefer madness.

Yeah but $$$ talk!

Last month, a Denver police chief confirmed that a year after legalisation "everything is fine", crime has continued to drop and police are going about their business as usual.

This made me s****. Al that's missing is a dude or a man.

I've said in court (previously…when i used to grow hydroponically - not any more) that i'd quite happily pay 60% tax on possible proceeds, i worked out that once i had paid for the equipment i was able to produce an oz for the sum of £3.27, that's taking into account electricity costs/hydroponic nutrients but not the amount of labour involved, and to do it well it does take a lot of time caring for the plants.

One crop of 10 plants = 72 oz x 4 crops a year (if you have it set up correctly) = 288 oz or 8kg give or take a few grams.

Sold at £200/oz = £57,600, at 60% tax rate thats £34,560 given in tax to the government.

Back when i was doing it i gave 50% to the MMC (Medical Marijuana Co-Op) to distribute to patients and kept some for myself, some sold to mates for £120.

So the government are missing out on hundreds of millions in possible tax revenues from home growers, not to mention the absolute fortune they could make from small scale commercial grows.

I have a couple of mates who moved over to Colorado a few years ago to get involved and they are doing rather well for themselves out there, i've also a mate who moved to Attalens, Switzerland to grow - must pay them a visit sometime 😀

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i gave 50% to the MMC (Medical Marijuana Co-Op) to distribute to patients

Never heard of that, is it a local initiative? Great idea, speaking from experience of a friend with MS.

Could you get a US work permit on the basis of having weed growing skills? Interesting idea.

brassneck : It was a nationwide support system that enabled patients with a genuine need (MS, Glaucoma, Muscle spasms/Parkinson's, spinal cord/bladder control/nerve pain, chemotherapy, anorexia, etc..etc) for the product to get it free of charge through a sympathetic doctors referral, some patients preferred just the bud to some/ingest as they needed (a single puff or suchlike is still the most effective/quick way to get relief for many folk), others preferred the bud to be turned into very high grade oil extract so a single drop could be used in a fatty drink/product such as a glass of milk or yoghurt (cannabinoids are fat soluble), others preferred the pure hash produced using the water extraction/bubble bag method. Advice was also given on the various methods of ingestion to new patients, i.e. the use of vaporisers etc.

Unfortunately the entire organisation/growers were ritually hounded/followed everywhere and prosecuted by the police until it became impossible to function due to continual arrests/ house raids/removal of computers/records/equipment, I've been out of it for over 10 years now but i'm sure it still goes on under the radar - i guess the original organisation was a victim of it's own success as once the national papers got a whiff of the story that signalled the death of it.

One of my friends is a Crohn's sufferer, and after a few years of prescribed drugs with nasty side effects, an operation to remove a large section of his gut and getting down to 8 stone (5'10") he found the Mary Jane controlled his symptoms. Hasn't had pharma for 5 odd years and is back to normal weight. He's a big player in the social club scene that has got popular in the last couple of years along with a mate with MS who's been on TV a few times, and they both campaign for legalisation. His major gripe at the moment is the hypocrisy of Sativex, it's okay to grow if you're a big corporation but have a few plants at home and you're a criminal.

For him it's a matter of health, I've seen him at times where supply is low and it's horrible. He's also got into a lot of dodgy situations, as prohibition puts it in the hands of criminals, and he likes to buy 'in bulk' so he knows he's going to be able to function for a while at a time.

He spent 6 months in the US and Canada researching the dispensary model over there, and if the situation doesn't change here soon I think he'll be moving.

Are they sure that they haven't got halfway through counting it, stopped for a spliff, and then started from the beginning again?

I tried to read this thread but kind of lost track, I'll do it tomorrow. Pass the skins...

Ho ho ho 🙄

Are we not negating the fact that the use of marajuana whilst being smoked or vapourized causes a sharp increase in lung conditions and mental health conditions also.

Ho ho ho 🙄

I'm all for legalization by the way. Go Colorado.

singlesteed - Member

Are we not negating the fact that the use of marajuana whilst being smoked or vapourized causes a sharp increase in lung conditions and mental health conditions also.

No link between cannabis and lung cancer - unless smoked with tobacco.

No link between cannabis and non-predisposed mental health issues. Use at an early age shows problems however.

Lifer - Member

No link between cannabis and non-predisposed mental health issues.

Which isn't so reassuring when you consider the spread of mental health issues... Not to be negative, weed's far less linked to mental health issues than the demon drink.

Can you vape weed? That seems like a perfect smoky storm.

Can you vape weed?

Soma,would your skills help someone with fibromyalgia?

Northwind - Member

Lifer - Member

No link between cannabis and non-predisposed mental health issues.

Which isn't so reassuring when you consider the spread of mental health issues... Not to be negative, weed's far less linked to mental health issues than the demon drink.

Sure, it's just the knee-jerk reaction is tiresome.

Can you vape weed? That seems like a perfect smoky storm.

You certainly can. There are a lot of 'how to' guides on the internet which show how to made a tincture to use in e-cigs but they're all quite involved.

But on that note

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/04/e-cigarettes-toxic-chemicals-research-finds-lung-damage ]research shows vaping not as safe as advertised[/url]

“E-cigarette vapour alone produced mild effects on the lungs, including inflammation and protein damage.

“However, when this exposure was followed by a bacterial or viral infection, the harmful effects of e-cigarette exposure became even more pronounced.

“The e-cigarette exposure inhibited the ability of mice to clear the bacteria from their lungs, and the viral infection led to increased weight loss and death, indicative of an impaired immune response.”

the use of marajuana whilst being smoked or vapourized causes a sharp increase in lung conditions and mental health conditions also.

yes because cigarettes and alcohol are so healthy for you

So uptight, you should have a smoke and chill out.
I'm all for legalization by the way. Go Colorado.

agree on both of those!

No link between cannabis and lung cancer - unless smoked with tobacco.

No link between cannabis and non-predisposed mental health issues. Use at an early age shows problems however.

disagree on both of those.

carcinogens are carcinogens, they are simply chemicals, whether the source of them is tobacco or ganja or daisies is irrelevant. you'd have to be playing daft buggers to pretend smoking weed does not produce carcinogenic chemicals and that it is somehow magically safe. vaporisers are probably better though. I'm not sure if street weed is often still treated with bulking agents like those tiny glass beads that were being sprayed on a few years ago, but there is probably all kinds of horrible stuff on the stuff the kids buy on the street. cheap resin is cut with plastic and used to stink of petrol.

mental health, again just not very much research. the typical horrible skunk your kids are buying off dodgy people is really pretty nasty stuff though. I know a lot of people who smoke a lot of weed, and some of them have had real problems. There used to be a music forum called DOA that had a massive drug culture, there some very interesting, honest threads about heavy smokers and how they developed paranoia and other mental issues. It isn't hard to imagine that something that changes your brain chemistry is over time going to cause collateral damage.

as a reference, I was a massive caner for years, and still indulge occasionally.

Are we not negating the fact that the use of marajuana whilst being smoked or vapourized causes a sharp increase in lung conditions and mental health conditions also.

you seem to be negating the fact that it also helps millions of mental health sufferers worldwide.

http://www.gpen.com/products/snoopdogg

If it's good enough for snoop.....

As a non-user, I've watched this with interest. Millions have been wasted in the war on drugs and it hasn't worked. Thousands of users have been criminalised as a result, yet medical use by companies is encouraged.

Seems self defeating in this age of austerity. Legalisation seems to he the pragmatic approach, then some element of control of supy and quality can be done. Taxescraised and savings in the crime bill could help with education and treatment for those who do have mental health issues.

Of course, you then enter the "thin end of the wedge" as far as other drugs go.

Still, if the two lads I passed on my commute home last night are under the canal bridge again tonight creating a haze of passive smoking joy, I shall ask their views on it!

The Age of the Herb is nearly upon us.

Irie Ites.

Fair enough bigjim, but I chose my words carefully and at the moment there is no provable link - I didn't say it was safe!

Mental health wise I think that there are people are attracted to drugs because of their mental health issues, I've known a few, hence the 'pre-disposed' caveat.

This is another problem with prohibition though, how many more people would respond to studies if the careers/relationships weren't on the line if they were outed as 'users'?

As such it's quite a self-selecting group - those that are attracted to drugs in the first place and then those that respond to studies/are studied due to being in the system already.

Yeah, I just think that, uh... You know... I mean, uh.... As far as... What?

bigjim - Member

you'd have to be playing daft buggers to pretend smoking weed does not produce carcinogenic chemicals

Is there evidence to suggest that it does? Reports I've seen say otherwise. (or at least- no more carcinogenic than burning any less amusing hydrocarbon)

Totally agree about the issue of being cut/bulked or getting soapbar made of tarmac and tyres but then that's a direct result of prohibition. (it'd still exist in a post-prohibition world due to blackmarketing of course, same as dodgy cigarettes exist, but that'd be a choice).

Edit - wrong forum, for shame.

I'd have thought a dope thread would be quite at home on the bike forum

I'm a massive libertarian when it comes to drugs, if people want to indulge they should be free to do so and i cant believe the government passes up the opportunity to collect massive amounts of tax on legalised regulated drugs...

....that said i'm also for coming down hard on idiots who indulge and get behind the wheel, its no different to drink driving and i detest that too.

However, even as someone who has played around with most drugs i hate the denial from cannabis devotees that their pastime has any kind of negative effects...a lot of the time rather than partake in a rational discussion they throw out the old 'alcohol and tobacco is bad for you too' line...well yes, we know that but lets talk about the negative effects of cannabis because its not all sunshine and rainbows despite what some people would like you to think.

This is a good comment:

carcinogens are carcinogens, they are simply chemicals, whether the source of them is tobacco or ganja or daisies is irrelevant. you'd have to be playing daft buggers to pretend smoking weed does not produce carcinogenic chemicals and that it is somehow magically safe. vaporisers are probably better though. I'm not sure if street weed is often still treated with bulking agents like those tiny glass beads that were being sprayed on a few years ago, but there is probably all kinds of horrible stuff on the stuff the kids buy on the street. cheap resin is cut with plastic and used to stink of petrol.

mental health, again just not very much research. the typical horrible skunk your kids are buying off dodgy people is really pretty nasty stuff though. I know a lot of people who smoke a lot of weed, and some of them have had real problems. There used to be a music forum called DOA that had a massive drug culture, there some very interesting, honest threads about heavy smokers and how they developed paranoia and other mental issues. It isn't hard to imagine that something that changes your brain chemistry is over time going to cause collateral damage.

deviant - Member
However, even as someone who has played around with most drugs i hate the denial from cannabis devotees that their pastime has any kind of negative effects...a lot of the time rather than partake in a rational discussion they throw out the old 'alcohol and tobacco is bad for you too' line...well yes, we know that but lets talk about the negative effects of cannabis because its not all sunshine and rainbows despite what some people would like you to think.

I think I've explained myself pretty well.

Prohibition doesn't work for harm reduction. I am sure most people who support the decriminalization of drugs would acknowledge that they are not the best for you.

Is there evidence to suggest that it does? Reports I've seen say otherwise. (or at least- no more carcinogenic than burning any less amusing hydrocarbon)

Totally agree about the issue of being cut/bulked or getting soapbar made of tarmac and tyres but then that's a direct result of prohibition. (it'd still exist in a post-prohibition world due to blackmarketing of course, same as dodgy cigarettes exist, but that'd be a choice).

I don't know, I've never looked, but I think slow combustion of organic material generally produces some pretty exciting hydrocarbons as part of the deal. People that smoke pipes with no tobacco still get horrible build up of tar and stuff in the pipe, even vaporisers need goop cleaning out.

I think the potential ill effects of weed must not be ignored and must be made aware to everyone buying, legal or not. However if I ever have kids I would far, far prefer them to buy it from a legal, regulated, traceable source, rather than some horrible cut plastic junk from some criminal who would love to sell them a range of other far more damaging drugs too.

As I said they should be researched, but the potential penalty to long-term 'white collar' users means that IMO the results of any study are skewed because there is a sizable part of the user base who do it in complete secrecy.

Yeah, the slow legalisation seen in the states and things like this http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/americas-top-doctor-admits-cannabis-can-be-good-for-you-10027140.html might change that eventually though.

The stigma around drugs like cannabis or mdma stopping them from even being considered for medical use is the very height of infuriating human stupidity, imho.

deviant - Member

a lot of the time rather than partake in a rational discussion they throw out the old 'alcohol and tobacco is bad for you too' line...

It is a reasonable point though, because the majority of people who are in favour of prohibition will drink alcohol, and would be up in arms were it to be banned- and would make the exact same arguments for keeping it legal. If I wanted to be argumentative I'd say it's hypocrisy, but instead I'll just say it's a bit of cognitive dissonance that shows up the weakness of the arguments.

(and in a similiar vein, most pro-prohibition arguments will include contamination, lack of regulation, and fraternising with criminals as ill effects of weed, rather than ill effects of prohibition. It's like putting poison in a biscuit and tying it to a rottweiler and saying biscuits are dangerous.

Put it out Mr Woppit you've had enough.

Legalise is the only realistic answer. If you think the so called war on drugs has been effective in any way what so ever you are a moron.
Millions of tax is being lost and millions in tax is being wasted on trying to stop people smoking pot.
I used to smoke a lot and the fact it is illegal just makes getting it a hassle sometimes but never ever never puts anyone off from buying it. All that's happening is serious criminal gangs are now growing huge amounts in the UK and are moving into legal businesses to launder the money quite easily and effectively. They make Amazon's tax evasion look like loose change. Really we all need to grow up and have a realistic debate and follow Colorado.
Yes weed has a negative side of course but you will never stop people smoking.

Clearly any drug has a negative side affect however two important points

1. its less than prohibition

2. its less than tobacco and alcohol

Legalising or decriminalising will happen one day

Soma,would your skills help someone with fibromyalgia?

@ zippykona - could you make contact with me please, e-mail in profile.

That's got to be a big nail in the coffin of prohibition, surely?

You'd think so wouldn't you. In reality though they'll prob just get even more draconian/spiteful. LIFE IMPRISONMENT for ANYONE (poor or black) with the letters D,R,U,G, or S in their name or address.

Junkyard - Lazarus

Legalising or decriminalising [s]will[/s] [i]should[/i] happen one day

FTFY. Unfortunately saying that is political suicide, evidence based reasoning loses to knee jerk tough actions.

Legalising is all well and good.
I smoked far too much in my youth. I even got caught with a load in my pocket and got done at a U2 concert(never got to see U2, every cloud has a silver lining)
What I did realise at the time is I was suffering from mental illness. I was paranoid, delusional, having bouts of extreme anger - which usually ended up in me smashing either me or something up. Weed was magnifying this a thousand fold.
It's been over twenty years since my last spliff and I d intend to ever have another.

FTFY. Unfortunately saying that is political suicide, evidence based reasoning loses to knee jerk tough actions.

Hopefully a phased approach will win over the more entrenched. Medical use only hopefully can't be too far away. A lot of drugs have nasty side effects, so the potential side effects from weed can't be used as an argument against.

From there hopefully we get on to the path to decriminalization then eventually full legalization. Though I suspect it'll take a generation or two to get there in the UK. The war on drugs, no matter how futile is not one any government will currently want to stop.

Do you think any of your peers drank to much beer and got a bit fighty as a result?

FWIW many young people act as you do its pretty hard to prove whether the drug is causal or whether its a symptom.
IMHO it is not likely to help anyone with a underlying mental health condition but the jury is still out on to what extent it exacerbates the risk. Its psycho active and therefore likely to have some effect

TBH i am more concerned it made you like U2 😉

The only reason I went to U2 was because I took a beautiful young lady from Detroit to Cardiff arms park to see them with the intention of having a great weekend of sex. I got nicked. She was fuming. She jumped on the next bus (while I was in the cells) and that was the last I heard from her.

I took a beautiful young lady from Detroit to Cardiff

(SWIDT ?)

In that case your reason are laudable 😀
I can see why you were so angry and went mental as well 😉

Having been an early heavy user I have first hand experience of the mental health issues it can bring on.
Haven't touched the stuff again in over 25 years and have no wish to.
That said I would wholeheartedly support full legalisation.

In answer to the can you vape weed enquiry I met a yank over Christmas in my local, in from California, vaping MJ, had to check it out, was pretty realistic, but without the kick to the back of the throat we ex smokers seek as the real reason we sometimes like to participate.

He was prescribed it for 'health' reasons, said something about his shoulder, co incidentally I have a frozen shoulder but can't seem to get it prescribed over here just yet, but given it's a vape thing, I can't see plod spotting it, anyway, just a heads up, it's available to vape, just thought y'all ought to know that.

zippykona : There have been a number of positive peer reviewed medical studies into the treatment of chronic neuropathic pain through use of Cannibinoids, whether that be use of licensed medical products such as Marinol/Nabinol or direct inhalation of vapours from a vaporiser (or simply taking a toke - quite often the easiest option) so i see no reason why it would not possibly help the suffering of a patient with Fybromylagia, which after all is just a medical term for Neuropathic nerve pain - have a search online using the terms above and arm yourself with the data for your next visit with your doctor/consultant, i'm unaware of any trial using Sativex (GW Pharmaceuticals - UK firm led by Dr Geoffrey Guy) but as it is being clinically trialled to treat neural pain as experienced by cancer patients i see no reason why it could not be trialled for a debilitating illness such as Fibromylagia, the current issue with getting access to such a treatment is that the current medical guidelines for "out of the medical box treatment" (wooly term - sorry) is woeful and often to the detriment of the patients quality of life.

[url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503660/ ]Rather dry and research heavy but good link to US National Library of Research regarding use of Cannabinoids in the management of difficult to treat pain[/url]

[url= http://www.gwpharm.com/Sativex.aspx ]Link to GW Pharmaceuticals - Sativex[/url]

[url= http://www.idmu.co.uk/pain-relief-cannabinoids.htm ]Independant Drug Monitering Unit - Cannabinoids and Pain Relief [/url]

[url= https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/sites/default/files/documents/cannabis_report_web.pdf ]10 yr old study by the Royal College of Physicians regarding Cannabis based Medicine [/url]

Given the amount of personal use reports alongside the amounting medical evidence to support medical use of Cannabis it is genuinely frustrating as to why it is still currently illegal, as per usual the politicians are only worried about perceived public perception regarding being [i]soft on drugs[/i] rather than listening to the advice from medical professionals.

PS - Has Gabapentin been offered as a solution?, at the moment i'm using 2400mg a day, 8 x 300mg tablets along with 300mg Tramadol as i had a stupid little [i]off[/i] on my bike 8 weeks ago and landed spine first on pointy rocks which ****ed my already buggered spine, i broke a facet joint and displaced it quite a bit on T7 which has really messed up with the nerve.

Soma, shall show all this to my mum and see what medication they are giving her.
Thanks.

somafunk - I realise a man of your calibre will be wise to this, but take it easy on the Tramadol if you're also enjoying yourself in other recreational ways.

I'm aware of a lad local to me, in his late 20s, who is currently in hospital recovering from a heart attack after a few weeks of taking it on prescription. Admittedly he was boozing it up a fair bit, but it's made me think twice about trying to obtain some for 'evaluation' reasons.

I'm sure it's fine when the rules are observed - which he plainly didn't regard - but I thought it worth mentioning.

Don't worry steve, but you're well right to be cautious, i've been taking Tramadol on/off for the past 20 years and i'm quite aware of the shortcomings of the drug, along with the shortcomings of Dihydrocodeine, Pethidine/oxycodon etc, i usually only take two a day max when i'm working, one first thing in the morning and one early afternoon but since my little off i've had to up the dose otherwise i cannot stand at work for more than a few minutes at a time which is totally impractical for my job.

I'm back in early March to the spinal clinic (who've repaired/worked with my spine for the past 20+ years) so hopefully the nerve response will have settled down by then but sometimes the nerves take months to recover/desensitise, i've done them in many times before so i know how best to treat them.

As for other recreational ways?, nah…..can't really be arsed with it these days….apart from very special occasions, perhaps once/twice a year but even then it's a half arsed attempt…damn this hitting 40…spoils all the fun 😀

I'll bet your back specialists know the back of their hands like your spine 😉

I've the prospect of recreationals in a few weeks, very special occasion, unlikely to be repeated, but I'm fairly terrified by the idea. Still, I probably will. Better to regret what you've done than what you haven't done and all that.

36hours of operations and 7 months in hospital over the years so you could say i deserve frequent flyer miles in the spinal unit, you'd think they would give me my own private suite but nae such thing 🙁 - it's thanks to the surgical team that i can still continue to place one foot in front of the other, albeit at a wobbly sedate pace these days but the original prognosis was so much worse so there's always something to be thankful for 🙂 such as this unexpected day off from work t'day, i went in this morning but an overnight power cut had reset the chocolate tempering machines (i'm a chocolatier) so nothing was workable and i thought "bugger it, i'm taking the day off" - so i went out on the Tripster for 4 hours in glorious but chilly sunshine.

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just myself, the bike, and a hipflask full of Balvenie, and 25 miles of deserted singlelane Galloway roads, only met tractors the entire journey.

Just bliss….

PS : enjoy your "occasion", a truly worthwhile event is few and far between these days so they are to be savoured and enjoyed. I've a box full of various top quality consumables that i got in for new year but i had the flu bug for a fortnight over the xmas/new year period so i just hid in the house and felt sorry for myself -so i'm looking forward to a decent blow out at some point this year, prob a decks n' lasers beach party come summer time.