[Closed] Cologne Mass Sex Attacks

Hh45 I don't think anyone is saying it didn't happen

it obviously did (too many unconnected witnesses) and what did they expect when hey let in a million manly young, unattached, men. from a culture that is pretty misogynistic compared to northern Europe.

Sadly Germany's generosity will cost it a lot.

Agree that integration will take time, but, like the rest of Europe with ageing populations, they need to import young workers to prevent this demographic timebomb from crippling them.

And as for this statement; jambafact alert !!

as they've always backed their border control to keep out the wrong sort.

[img] [/img]

@kimbers I said "the wrong sort", whilst Trump tries to classify all Mexicans as rapists most are there to work illegally and I'm not aware they've created any major national security threat. That was my point. Illegal immigration is a big issue in the US and they have a pretty serious wall already.

Sadly Germany's generosity will cost it a lot. Paying Lebanon and Turkey (for example) to look after refugees would be much better.

most [Mexicans] are there to work illegally

#jambafact

From my experience of living and working in the US I would think most undocumented Mexicans in the US are just there to work, would be interesting to know if there is information otherwise?

From my experience of living and working in the US I would think most undocumented Mexicans in the US are just there to work, would be interesting to know if there is information otherwise?

From my experience living and working in the US and teaching English to immigrants in Texas, a lot of the people you call Mexican are not, they come from a variety of countries. As to the statistics, they are readily Google'able. Approx 5m out of 12m are illegal, of whom not all work.

Demographics is not the problem for Germany. you can let people into work and not give them citizenship and all the rights that go with it. That way its easier to prevent excess demand for housing, abuse of benefits, cultural integration and so on. Sadly (because it appears to have been well intentioned) the Germans have messed up big time. The Hungarians and Australians are the only countries really thinking straight on this issue.

Approx 5m out of 12m are illegal, of whom not all work

Of course not all work. However an illegal in the US will not get welfare support. So I guess it's work or starve.

Nonimmigrants and undocumented immigrants are barred from receiving benefits. They are eligible, however, for public health, emergency services, and programs identified by the attorney general as necessary for the protection of life and safety.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/immigrants-and-welfare-use

Demographics are important, of course, you don't want your country to resemble an old persons home.
It's clear the fall in fertility rates in the West is permanent.
But with the rise of technology and automation, do we need a continued influx of young labour?
We could be approaching a world in which technology does pretty much everything.

[url= http://http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/10/after-cologne-attacks-british-politicians-show-share-merkel-values ]Will Hutton article[/url]

in todays Observer. well known liberal / left of centre thinker like what he is

Madame has regularly made a comment about the demographic of the refugees shown on German TV, "where are all the women". I think part of the answer is in the refugee camps in Jordan and Turkey. Wherever the female half of the population is, I think it's unhealthy that the sexes have been divided in the exodus.

But with the rise of technology and automation, do we need a continued influx of young labour?
We could be approaching a world in which technology does pretty much everything.

See what you are saying but i think we are a long way off automation saving us from manual labour, more importantly what robots can't do is pay tax;
its the people in work who support the retirees, winter fuel, bus passes, license fees, all of that very very expensive medical care and of course pensions make up the biggest chunk of the welfare bill.
Assuming Germany can manage to integrate all of these immigrants well (and I'm sure they will), their economy will be strengthened in the long term

Assuming Germany can manage to integrate all of these immigrants well (and I'm sure they will), their economy will be strengthened in the long term

What makes you so confident they will integrate them well ? It has started out very badly and most don't speak German, they have budgeted €3bn alone to teach them German.

Madame has regularly made a comment about the demographic of the refugees shown on German TV, "where are all the women"

Cultural issues mean many women will not travel (be that as they don't wish to, aren't allowed to, etc.) Also many men are husbands / sons / brothers who expect to send for their family as/when they are granted asylum. The alternative more negative explanation is many of these refugees ae ex fighters for/against Assad who've had enough

they have budgeted €3bn alone to teach them German

they have budgeted €3bn alone to teach them German
#JAMBYFACT

Well they have budgeted 17bn euros for the original estimate of the 800,000 refugees.

The funds will go towards housing, food, education and otherwise care for the asylum seekers

So to allow about 20% for education would seem reasonable to me.

[url= http://news.yahoo.com/german-states-budget-17-bn-euros-refugees-2016-114901246.html ]http://news.yahoo.com/german-states-budget-17-bn-euros-refugees-2016-114901246.html[/url]

Reported offenses now [b]exceed 500[/b] with 40% being of a sexual nature. Andrew Marr show today repeated my comment froma few days ago, Merkel is now in increasing trouble politically, a real threat to her Chancellorship is bulding

#jambafact love these two challenges ( if you can call them that in particular), basic stuff guys

Junky please make some kind of effort to keep up with the news. Reported a couple of months ago, estimate from German government minister

DrJ (browsing on the phone again I imagine) millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, please feel free to complete

Reasons they've come to the US - we're looking for rational for "vast majority"

1) to work illegally (#jambafact)
2) to work legally (not possible they have no visa or social security number)
3) to give birth so child has US passport
4) vacation ? (why come illegally)
5) ?... DrJ's explanation

Veyr happy to check your explanation with my Texan friends, seeing a very good one in 10 days in Singapore.

Junky please make some kind of effort to keep up with the news. Reported a couple of months ago, estimate from German government minister

Out of interest how would you suggest one keeps up with two month old news, or history as I prefer to term it ? 😉

In your defence I very much doubt you spend as much time reading / watching news as I do, nor have access to,paid subscription services which my employer provides. You [b]are[/b] just as able to go on a google spree as I am on this. It was definitely a written piece on the web, bbc probably. I am under zero obligation to justify anything to you or indeed anyone else. You and I both understand that. If you doubt it research it yourself.

Why don't you help out DrJ with his questionaire ?

I am under zero obligation to justify anything

question[b]n[/b]aire

DrJ (browsing on the phone again I imagine) millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, please feel free to complete

Irrelevant , since that was not what you claimed, which was that the majority of Mexicans are in the US to work illegally, not that the majority of illegal Mexicans are there to work.

DrJ on the Met line.

In your defence I very much doubt you spend as much time reading / watching news as I do,

I could google but it was your claim and you , despite your massive [s]ego[/s] knowledge base seem unable to provide the proof despite repeated requests

I am under zero obligation to justify anything to you or indeed anyone else.

When exactly did you stop "debating" and just go for trolly shit like that ?

I cant believe people are saying it didn't happen and its just racism.

Veyr happy to check your explanation with my Texan friends

That will be really helpful if they share your love of logical fallacies and complete disregard for evidence/fact.

Also guys...I think this needs to be said, I'd quickly like to say that we should all use this thread to take pause and have a quick think about how we treat the women in our own lives. Let's all treat women in a less misogynistic manner, yeah?

Also, take pause to think about all the women holed up in shitty refugee camps right now - where this abuse probably goes on, on a daily basis.

I'd be happy to let all the women and children come over - I'm less enthralled by the idea of entitled men seeking refuge.

*Thinks, asks Madame if she finds the men she meets misogynistic*.

Madame says she doesn't find men misogynistic, she could name a few macho types but not misogynistic.

I think it's just a good idea to take a few minutes to reflect Edukator - we still have issues with domestic abuse and rape etc in the country.

It would be nice, if we could define ourselves as a culture by showing solidarity with women and by more staunchly supporting our own cultural ideals. Instead of just critiquing immigrant cultures (which has it's place).

I'd quickly like to say that we should all use this thread to take pause and have a quick think about how we treat the women in our own lives. Let's all treat women in a less misogynistic manner, yeah?

I dont and I think it would make more sense to ask people not to do it rather than do it less.

Well yes Junky - but that's black and white thinking. Things are greyer, like the fact that not all immigrants are responsible for rape and terrorism - and the fact that terrorism is also only ever going to be lessened.

I'm unsure why we aren't funding the camps more and doing more to support turkey, again, we could help rufugees without resorting to either A) Letting everyone in or B) Telling everyone to **** off and becoming isolationist.

There's never a sodding happy medium in politics, ever. Especially in continental Europe, where one half of the century was marred by dictatorships and the next half was dominated by hippies and then during the 21st century we start swinging back to the far right.

I currently live next to the busiest land border crossings in the world - San Diego / TJ.

Over 70,000 people make the crossing from Mexico into the US each day, and over 70,000 go back again.

They all come to work, they earn their money, then they go home again.

The crap you read in the press is just that, crap.

You are right i should be more grey and assume all men are mysgonistic 😕

Forgive me for your poor use of the language.

I think you are full of crap sometimes Junky. I think men should discuss womens issues between themselves - or at least think about them once in a while.

well if saying i am misogynist and I talk crap when i object to this wont bring about this discourse then i for one dont know what will 🙄

I'm making the exact same point as those asking the Muslim world for a bit more introspection.

Sure, I just got home from work and I'm tired - I think the point still stands. Without debate and that means including men in the discussion, nothing changes.

If you think you are holier than thou, be my guest, keep looking down on everyone from your ivory tower mate.

I certainly deserve to be insulted because i dont hate women or treat them badly due to this hatred.
Another bold step in helping us discuss the issue .

FWIW i dont dislike you but you could occasionally [ as could I] gain from thinking before typing.
It may have been well meant but it was poorly expressed and I may have been overly harsh.

Exits thread

Does anyone still think this didn't happen?

[url= http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386 ]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35280386[/url]

According to that report, 19 people are under investigation - meanwhile:

On Sunday evening, a group of around 20 people attacked six ****stanis, two of whom had to be treated in hospital.

Two Syrian men were attacked in two separate incidents. Three men from Guinea were assaulted in a fourth attack, police said.

BUT ITS THE END OF DAYS ITS THE FALL OF EUROPEAN CIVILISATION BECAUSE OF ALL THE DARK-SKINNED FOREIGNERS BAN THEM!

Appalling racists attacks in retribution, I hope those responsible are brought to justice.

What I do have to ask is why so many ****stani's are in Germany claiming asylum ? What's wrong with returning to ****stan from Syria and what where they doing there in the first place ?

What I do have to ask is why so many ****stani's are in Germany claiming asylum ?

Are they?

That was what was reported. Its my experience with spending 30 years travelling to the middle east that there are many ****stani and Bangladeshi's working there doing meneal jobs. It very much looks like they have joined the substantial numbers (40%) coming from the Balkens to claim asylum in Germany. I can understand their decsion, if succesful they will have a far better life than returning home to ****stan etc

That was what was reported.

Where?

Its my experience with spending 30 years travelling to the middle east that there are many ****stani and Bangladeshi's working there doing meneal jobs.

For once your anecdotal 'evidence' tallies with actual facts.

It very much looks like they have joined the substantial numbers (40%) coming from the Balkens to claim asylum in Germany.

Maybe, but what are you basing this on?

grum - Member
BUT ITS THE END OF DAYS ITS THE FALL OF EUROPEAN CIVILISATION BECAUSE OF ALL THE DARK-SKINNED FOREIGNERS BAN THEM!

The interesting thing is that you do not see orientals like Chinese, oversea Chinese (descendants), Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese and oriental related people going awol ape shite looting or assaulting female in a foreign land do you?

Why?

European civilisation is dying because the people are deciding not to reproduce. This forum is indicative of that trend for the most part, as there are plenty of middle-aged childless posters on here.
A civilisation cannot outlive a falling birth rate.
The immigrants aren't to blame for Europe's woes, they are are just exploiting the fact that nature abhors a vacuum.
It's a shame it is happening during our lifetimes, but I say good luck to them, if Europeans won't continue their civilisation, then they don't deserve it in the first place.

European civilisation isn't dying, it's just changing, societies are dynamic, conservatism fails to understand this basic truth of humanity.

The interesting thing is that you do not see orientals like Chinese, oversea Chinese (descendants), Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese and oriental related people going awol ape shite looting or assaulting female in a foreign land do you?

Was this meant to be tongue in cheek ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35188135

European civilisation isn't dying, it's just changing, societies are dynamic, conservatism fails to understand this basic truth of humanity.

The people are dying, by which I mean the populations which have lived in European countries for the past 2000 years plus.

Of course, you can import people from a different continent, but as they have their own culture, that culture will eventually supersede your culture.

The French philosopher Henri Bergson wrote an excellent book which contrasted static societies vs dynamic societies. Bergson pointed out that societies can only become dynamic if they have an underlining continuity in the first place (i.e. they are static). To assert that dynamism (meaning here multiculturalism) is inherent in "human nature" is frankly ridiculous.

To assert that dynamism (meaning here multiculturalism) is inherent in "human nature" is frankly ridiculous.

Are you really that ignorant of your own history ?

There have been huge cultural shifts in our country in your magic 2000 year period; homosexuality was illegal 50 years ago, 100 years ago, we still had workhouses and women couldn't vote, 200 years ago slavery was legal and business was booming, our last witch trial was 1944, she was sent to prison, BTW, 250 years ago we were still burning witches at the stake.
Do you really think that our culture is anything like the peoples who 'owned' this land even 5 or 10 generations ago?

Our cultural and genetic heritage flys in the face of your outdated isolationist view of the world

societoes of europe have always been merging. if this had not happened there would be no english in England. The only factor that has altered is the scale, Its not just near neighbours who come here it's the whole planet. If multiculturalism was not a part of human nature we would be Picts and all humanity would live in in isolated tribes. The pace may have increased as well.

Clearly the roots of identity and tribalism run deep and they are also still a factor but the general trends[ some of the english cling to this identity as if it was not borne from multiculturalism. for example] has been and will be the mixing of the tribes of the planet. It cannot really be undone as we cannot resettle folk. It will have issues and we need to deal with them rather than thing we can reverse it.

I am completely unfamiliar with the person you qoute but it seems strange and contradictory to argue they can only be dynamic if they are static.

Bergson pointed out that societies can only become dynamic if they have an underlining continuity in the first place (i.e. they are static)

kimbers - Member

The interesting thing is that you do not see orientals like Chinese, oversea Chinese (descendants), Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese and oriental related people going awol ape shite looting or assaulting female in a foreign land do you?

Was this meant to be tongue in cheek ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35188135

Ok, I should be more specific (I should have known better when posting on STW I should be anal) about the time period so let's assume post WWII ... we don't see many of them running riots [b][u]in the West [/u][/b]do you? Bear in mind there are large Chinese population in UK ...

Oh ya, where are the ads with Chinese or Oriental faces ya?

Ya, if you want to go back to WWII, I can better you by listing the Mighty Mongols ... they would slaughter your entire male gene and reproduce with your female no question asked.

kimbers - Member
European civilisation isn't dying, it's just changing, societies are dynamic, conservatism fails to understand this basic truth of humanity.

Ya, changing ... a bit like being bred out innit. 🙄

Dynamic my foot!

The strong prevail while the weak perish.

The Mighty Mongols demonstrated that.

@grum Guardian / BBC or dw.com I think I wil check for you. Likewise the 40% has been reported many times, the Germans have built seperate holding facilities for them so they can be fast track deported. Its tough as I appreciate the economic reasons for trying to latch on to the migration.

I do wonder whether the attack in Istanbul deliberately targetted Germans (excuse 8:30 am cliche) Daesh is not happy at all with Germany taking in refugees and they regard it as un-Islamic to leave Syria - an attempt to destabilise Germany and Merkel ?

kimbers yes Europe is changing, a million Poles in the UK now (most arrived in past 10 years). There will be more Muslims in the UK than Scots within 10 years - a referendum on an Islamic state 😉

jambalaya - Member
I do wonder whether the attack in Istanbul deliberately targetted Germans (excuse 8:30 am cliche) Daesh is not happy at all with Germany taking in refugees and they regard it as un-Islamic to leave Syria - an attempt to destabilise Germany and Merkel ?

Difficult to say but my view is that they will target all the citizen of Western alliance/nations. They are just easy pickings to create chaos and splits using the media. Turkey has an undercurrent so large that it will be the biggest civil war there is once it starts ...

As for tourists if they are at the wrong place at the wrong time they become legitimate target.

That socially inapt stoopid woman (Merkel) now have to deal with self imported problem right at their door step. She actually imported/invited/welcomed the problem/trouble I mean how stoopid can she get eh?

There is compassion then there is stoopido! (new word! new word! "Stoopido!" TM)

Being compassionate and kind towards other human being does not mean having to become stooopido. 🙄

There will be more Muslims in the UK than Scots within 10 years

Jambafact !!

Unless u mean that when the tories flunk us out of the EU that Scotland will leave the UK 😉

kimbers - Member

There will be more Muslims in the UK than Scots within 10 years

Jambafact !!

Logical. How many Scots do you have now? What's the Muslamic world population? Just a tiny percentage will easily over take Scots. 🙄 (ya, I know now you want to define who Scots are innit!)

Unless u mean that when the tories flunk us out of the EU that Scotland will leave the UK

Freedoomm!

But then Scotland will have to put their hands out begging for food if they want EU to feed them or prostitute their land to "investors". 😛

Ya, have some dignity be poor and starve rather then to beg.

Looks like there has been a similar incident in Sweden.

There was an article on Radio 4 this morning where a Swedish spokesperson said that this kind of behavior and rape of women who are non muslim and who do not stay at home is a passtime and even relaxing!! I'm sure something must have gone awry with her English, but still!

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35285086 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35285086[/url]

"Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

So the police officer covered up, a matter of policy or a personal initiative?

Obviously there's nothing "muslim" about incidents like this.

There certianly seems to be something "middle eastern" about it though

I am completely unfamiliar with the person you qoute but it seems strange and contradictory to argue they can only be dynamic if they are static.

Bergson argued that societies can only become dynamic if they have a static base (i.e. conservative institutions). An example I would use is someone like Michelangelo, a dynamic, radical artist who could not have achieved what he did without the support of a conservative institution.

Followers of Karl Popper, a vastly overrated philosopher IMO, instead argue that a dynamic society can only exist if it effectively declares war on static, traditionalist elements. That is certainly what has happened in the UK in the last 30 years, but I think we are now reaching a watershed, and there will probably be a traditionalist / conservative reaction over the next 30 years (strong nation states, low immigration, even the resurgence of religion).

strong nation states, low immigration, even the resurgence of religion).

Really? Despite our ageing population's need for young tax paying workers and the lowest ever church attendance figures being released this week

I think you are living in a fantasy land

@kimbers there was some research that looked at trends in immigration and also factors like family size, definite cultural factors at play.

German government now saying they think the Istanbul bomb deliberately targetted Germans (I did wonder whether it was a specific German tour group which was singled out). Daesh wants to atack those that offer help to Muslims as much as it wants to attack those that take military action or simply go on holiday and thus help local economies and serve to integrate communities.

I think you are living in a fantasy land

30 years is a long time...let's just say I'm in for the longhaul!

[i]
A 26-year-old Algerian man stands accused of groping a woman and stealing her mobile phone, said Cologne's chief prosecutor, Ulrich Bremer. He is the first to be arrested for sexual assault charges.
The unidentified asylum-seeker was arrested along with a 22-year old Algerian over the weekend at a refugee home in Kerpen, 30 kilometers outside of Cologne, Bremer said. The other suspect was in possession of a cell phone which was stolen during the attacks at Cologne's central train station.[/i]

Algeria, whats so dangerous about that country to justify an asylum claim and where has the yiung man come from Syria ? If so what was he doing there ?

[url= http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-detains-first-sexual-assault-suspect-in-new-years-attacks/a-18987595 ]Story link[/url]