[Closed] Cologne Mass Sex Attacks

Yeah, Richard Dawkins is a great person to trot out when you want a reasonable and balanced discussion about Muslims. 🙄

How do (or should) his views on Islam differ from his views on Christianity or Judaism?

He describes it as a 'one of the great evils of the world' and says its worse than christianity.

http://freethoughtnation.com/richard-dawkins-islam-is-one-of-the-great-evils-of-the-world/

TBH he comes out with all sorts of rubbish these days:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/09/is-richard-dawkins-destroying-his-reputation

I always thought his interpretation was based on current circumstance?

All the Abrahamic religions have been through periods of fundamentalism and reform, often encompassing both points of view simultaneously in different geographical locations.

For all the social justice fanatics here on Single Track I'll quote quote Richard Dawkins "Soft bigotry of low expectations." Holding other races to a lower standard (e.g. excusing misogyny & homophobia) is itself a form of racism ..

And yet when Israel is held to normal western standards, and criticised for dropping white phosphorus on children, we are accused of anti-semitism. Hard to do the right thing, sometimes!!

Did some of the people excusing these attackers work for Rotherham council? Denying obvious blame just prolongs the problem and fuels hatred and division.

It also means here in the UK we will never get a decent goverment becuase whatever most people views on other policies they will generally vote for whatever party is vagely plausible and promises to keep muslims out.

However, making massive generalisations and assuming that our culture is always better in every way is hardly very helpful.

OK, now I recognise I am going way off-piste for the socialist republic of singletrackworld, but here goes: our culture [u]is[/u] better. I wouldn't care to live outside of Western civilisation.

We still don't know what religion the aggressors were, if any. You'll find rape (of which there was just one being quoted yesterday) is banned in all the religions In Arabia and North Africa and respect is demanded for women.

As one journalist put it this morning, you get bad people in any group. I would add that the bad people in these groups are particularly vile.

/\... and this must be true in the case of people who hang under trucks or cross seas in rubber boats to get here. Then we are expcted to accept the habits that turned the originating country into a shithole.

OK, now I recognise I am going way off-piste for the socialist republic of singletrackworld, but here goes: our culture is better. I wouldn't care to live outside of Western civilisation.

In our eyes our culture is better, but if you ask people from other cultures, including some of those cultures around the world where women are routinely degraded and have very little rights, then a lot of those people genuinely believe that their way is better. Ask a man who has five wives what he prefers - he's not going to say Western culture now is he?

Still it's not our place to educate them or tell them different, the same as it's not their place to do the same to us. But it is our right to defend our largely liberal beliefs inside the UK (or Germany, France etc) when this appears unduly threatened by outside influence.

But it is our right to defend our largely liberal beliefs inside the UK (or Germany, France etc) when this appears unduly threatened by outside influence.

Who is this "we" of which you speak, and how does one become a part of it?

But it is our right to defend our largely liberal beliefs inside the UK (or Germany, France etc) when this appears unduly threatened by outside influence.

There is a great essay by a Polish philosopher called "The Self Poisening of the Open Society". It argues that liberalism lacks the defense mechanisms to defend itself, particularly on issues such as tolerance and free speech.

Liberalism is the West's problem. It is based on a false view of human nature (that people are basically good) and results in utopian thinking, such as multiculturalism, which doesn't actually work. And by culture I mainly mean religion, having a French wife (as suggested above) does not make one a participant in multiculturalism, as the culture of the UK and France are very similar as opposed to the culture of the UK and the Arab world.

So you're effectively saying it's anti-liberal to stick up for liberal beliefs?

Or taken to the extreme the overt promotion or protection of a liberal and tolerant society/way of life is in itself racist against people whose culture couldn't be described as liberal and tolerant?

So you're effectively saying it's anti-liberal to stick up for liberal beliefs?

Yes, essentially liberalism poisens itself over time; it contains the seeds of its own destruction.

This may have no relevance to the thread, make your own mind up.

When living in Finland a Jordanian guy came to live in the flat. He was 21 had no idea about looking after himself, couldn't cook, didn't know what a washing machine was etc. The fourth night in the flat we were chatting getting to know each other, so there was me, Mulingo a guy from Ghana the Jordanian and two friends of Mulingo who were from West Africa. We were talking about the weather how cold it was, what we did for hobbies, sport etc etc then the conversation turned to women. The Jordanian guy said that all the women he had seen since being in Joensuu were whores. Things got a bit heated with everyone being amazed at his point of view. He stuck by his guns saying that women who go to bars or nightclubs were whores and deserve no respect. The Africans just laughed at him and said he was wrong. I said pretty much the same thing even questioning why he thought that. Told him that my friends weren't whores etc etc

Forward 6 months and we didn't have a lot to do with each other over that time firendly but didn't hang out, Mulingo really didn't like him. My last night in the flat we start chatting. He now has a Finnish girlfriend and he says to me he never wants to go home, he couldn't take his girlfriend home to Jordan, he enjoyed the freedom of Finland if not the weather. I asked his if he thought all women who went to bars and nightclub were whores, he got really embarrassed and said sorry.

No idea what happened to him but he certainly changed a lot in that 6 months.

I'm guessing the problem is that many of these male immigrants are coming from countries where the treatment and rights of woman (by our standards) is shockingly backward.

I think this is the problem. Given that in the UK itself, domestic violence wasn't really treated as a crime but rather as 'a private matter' until the 1980s (and police are still criticised for their response today), a man raping his wife was legal until 1994, and you still get survey respondents saying that rape victims are partly or wholly responsible if they've been drinking, wearing particular clothes or walking alone - our own culture has thankfully progressed quickly over the last few decades, but it's not hard to see how others may still have a backwards attitude to women (and gay people, for that matter).

There are places in the world (including Europe) where women are effectively seen as property of men, where women are trafficked as sex slaves, where women have their clitoris cut off and vaginas sown up as young girls and teens so that they can't enjoy sex, where rape victims are routinely blamed by people in authority for their own assaults (even when gang raped, disembowelled and thrown from a bus), raped to punish the crimes of male relatives, or to exercise dominance in war, and gay people are arrested and executed.

You'd hope that if people move to a different country, they'd be going there because they accept its values, but it'd be naive to think that would be the case for everyone (especially when we still have plenty of homegrown assholes who treat women and gays like shit).

I don't think it's a race thing, or even a religion thing - I certainly don't think religion helps, whether it's ISIS/Boko Haram-flavoured Islam raping women as the spoils of war (which, let's not forget, is also approved of by the Old Testament), or right-wing conservatives in the US using Christianity as an excuse to control women's access to birth control and abortion. Cultural baggage and learned attitudes are hard to shed.

Norway and Denmark have mandatory lessons for immigrants on the cultural differences in regards to gender - I genuinely hope that they give them to female immigrants too, to that they know their rights. To be honest, it sounds like the sort of thing that should be taught in schools for everyone, tbh.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=0

Education, education, education. Everyone has different stories when it comes to multiculturalism and integration.
A couple of my experiences:
The day after England beat ****stan in the cricket a few years ago, I was cycling through a park and suddenly got pelted by stones. It was a bunch of young Muslims who'd been drinking all day (I guess you could call that integration?), when I went to confront them it was lucky I was on a bike and could get away quickly, as I doubt I would have escaped without a serious kicking.
When I was teaching at a university again a few years back, we had to split the students into groups. The white female groups were always hassled by the men from a ****stani background ("stupid whore", muttered under the breath). This was not I should point out one of the UK's top unis.
The latter experience in particular is why I'm not surprised about the sexual assaults in Germany (which apparently happened across the country and not just Cologne).

It's nothing new. When I was at Grenoble Uni in 1978 a girl student from my college was groped on a couple of occasions by young men from the Maghreb and robbed once in a clever distraction trick.

I spend quite a bit of time with my Sudanese customer and his pals, all young and very devout and although they are charming, funny and hospitable people their attitudes to women are completely neanderthal and their views on religion equally restricted. It's difficult for Europeans to understand the depth of cultural repression in those societies.

Drop a few of those guys into an average European city on a Friday or Saturday night and they must think they've already arrived in Heaven.

Good post, Mrs Toast.

Drop a few of those guys into an average European city on a Friday or Saturday night and they must think they've already arrived in Heaven.

They would do well to find 77 virgins!

raping women as the spoils of war (which, let's not forget, is also approved of by the Old Testament)

Notably the Germans in Belgium, the Russians in Berlin, the Nazis... .

And let's also not forget that Christians follow the word of Christ (a Jew) who tacitly approved of the Moses code but whose message of peace a reconciliation was in contradiction with much of the Old Testament. I think you would have difficulty demonstrating Christianity approves of rape during war.

OK, now I recognise I am going way off-piste for the socialist republic of singletrackworld, but here goes: our culture is better. I wouldn't care to live outside of Western civilisation.

Wow. The bit you quoted which you are apparently agreeing with is that our culture is better in every single way. Now I have numerous issues with the way women are treated in some Islamic groups/societies - however in my experience they tend to have a far greater sense of family unity and extended family support, and while some young women may be somewhat restricted in their freedom they are also far less subject to issues around sexualisation at a young age, or problems with drink and drugs, for example.

All generalisations yes, but I think saying our culture is better in every way makes you a racist, or a xenophobe, sorry.

Also, imagine if your main exposure to western culture with little other knowledge was watching pop videos - you can see why they might consider western women as sluts. Not saying that makes it right obviously.

Good post by Mrs Toast up there ^^^^^

and while some young women may be somewhat restricted in their freedom they are also far less subject to issues around sexualisation at a young age

Erm... you're familiar with the outcomes of the Rotherham reports right? Which stated that the muslim gangs grooming white girls, weren't just grooming white girls. They were equally as happy to sexually assault young muslim girls. In fact they'd be a lot happier, as the only difference was that the muslim girls definitely wouldn't report it, because of how it would be dealt with. i.e.: victim blaming - men not being held responsible for being able to control their own base urges etc. So making even easier targets.

Personally I think its all down to religion. And not just Islam. If any religion is so repressed sexually, and refuses to acknowledge, let alone discuss sexuality openly, then this is the inevitable end result. Its exactly the same as the sexual repression within the catholic church leading directly to the endemic peodophillia that resulted from it. It just isn't healthy for human beings to have their sexuality so forcibly repressed, and sexual mores dictated to them.Especially when what is being preached is so at odds with our modern secular idea of equality.

But as Mrs Toast pointed out, you don't have to look very far, even in our supposedly enlightened society, where neanderthal attitudes towards women are still all too prevalent

Well, I didn't know this actually happened until I saw the late News last night.

My attitude is a bit Daily Mail ATM, so won't post what I was going to say.

Liberalism is the West's problem. It is based on a false view of human nature (that people are basically good)

this is so full of wrong I can't begin to figure it out. There is very strong genetic evidence to show that many many species (not just homo) understand that co-operation and kindness is an heredity and evolutionary advantage that pretty much all life on earth uses. If we're using Dawkins then you could (fairly in my opnion) lay a significant amount of blame at his door for his work The Selfish Gene, which espouses the moronic viewpoint that you have opined, that somehow we're at the mercy of our ancestry. It's bollocks.

I'm basing this on direct experience of working in Muslim communities over a number of years. There simply isn't the culture among most teenage Muslim girls of going out in highly sexualised outfits, getting drunk/taking drugs and trying to pull lads or whatever. Not saying it never happens but I'd be a lot less worried about it as the parent of a 14 year old Muslim girl than I would a 14 year old white girl. (And before anyone starts I'm NOT victim blaming).

That's not to say there aren't vulnerable Muslim girls, or that they might not be vulnerable in other ways, I'm just giving one example where you could argue 'their culture' is superior.

Another is the way extended family chip in money to help set up businesses. Again a generalisation but happens a hell of a lot from what I gather.

Again, broadly I favour western liberalism, obviously - but I can see it from the other side too. Lots of Muslim parents are horrified by the accepted levels of drink/drug abuse/sex/sexualised pop music that seems to be a big part of western culture for many teenagers. Not saying they are totally right, but they're not totally wrong either.

Grum - I lived in a predominently Muslim area for a couple of years, and I know exactly what you're saying. I admired their sense of community. But its swings and roundabouts. I also found the hypocrisy of expecting the women to adhere strictly to islamic values, while the males enforcing these codes on dress etc, would be... shall we say.... less than keen to apply these stringent islamic preachings to their own behavior.

The contradiction and flagrant double standards is pretty outrageous

Yup agreed binners

[quote=grum spake unto the masses, saying]I'm basing this on direct experience of working in Muslim communities over a number of years. There simply isn't the culture among most teenage Muslim girls of going out in highly sexualised outfits, getting drunk/taking drugs and trying to pull lads or whatever. Not saying it never happens but I'd be a lot less worried about it as the parent of a 14 year old Muslim girl than I would a 14 year old white girl. (And before anyone starts I'm NOT victim blaming).
That's not to say there aren't vulnerable Muslim girls, or that they might not be vulnerable in other ways, I'm just giving one example where you could argue 'their culture' is superior.

In what way is that "superior"? Should not girls be able to do the same as boys without negative consequences?

If they want to. Maybe they don't want to though?

And what's this 'spake unto the masses' stuff? Is that meant to be some kind of dig?

There simply isn't the culture among most teenage Muslim girls of going out in highly sexualised outfits, getting drunk/taking drugs and trying to pull lads or whatever.

Yup also true wrecker.

Grum, of all the Muslim young(ish) people I consider friends (6 closely - 3 from the UK of ****stani origin (2 x girls, 1 x guy), 3 from and living in Egypt (all guys), all have drunk alcohol, all bar one have taken some form of recreational drugs on a reasonably regular basis. All have engaged in pre-marital sex, some quite prolifically.

Is this a bad thing? No I don't think it is. All 6 are what I'd consider grounded open minded individuals with a strong family ethic. Far better this I'd say than restricting young girls to effective house arrest until it's time to force them into an arranged, naive and possibly abusive marriage.

Some good points above.
I think one of the the thing which messes up a lot of young muslims is the extremity of the difference between their parents traditionalism and the hedonism of contemporary Western culture.
It's very hard to reconcile the two.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/10/sex-crimes-analysis-england-wales ]One in five women are victims of sexual assault in UK[/url]

Good old British values, eh?

I think sexual assault is a serious crime, and you need effective prosecution of offenders and education to tackle it more successfully. I think that's pretty straightforward.

I don't really see a clearly articulated point in all the general muttering about Islam and multiculturalism in this thread, rather a generalised fear of "the other". What, for example, does being pelted with stones by Neds in a park tell you about multiculturalism or the Cologne incident?

I've read and listened to recent reports about Cologne. It appears that there is a known problem with criminal gangs operating in the station area who mug people, sometimes using sexual harassment or assault as a distraction. There doesn't appear to be any evidence of a coordinated act of mass terrorism so far, but men gathering in the area may have taken advantage of the larger than usual crowds to commit a number of reported sexual assaults and robberies. The police may not have controlled the crowds and dealt with lawless behaviour very effectively.

Far better this I'd say than restricting young girls to effective house arrest until it's time to force them into an arranged, naive and possibly abusive marriage.

Yes because those are the only two options aren't they. 🙄

Ok fine I'm sorry - our culture is superior in EVERY way. How could I have been so silly.

Some good points above.
I think one of the the thing which messes up a lot of young muslims is the extremity of the difference between their parents traditionalism and the hedonism of contemporary Western culture.
It's very hard to reconcile the two.

Yup I'd agree with that.

What, for example, does being pelted with stones by Neds in a park tell you about multiculturalism or the Cologne incident?

It tells me there is an integration problem. This is along with talking to other people and looking at media reports (although I think a lot of the problems are generally underreported).

I think one of the the thing which messes up a lot of young muslims is the extremity of the difference between their parents traditionalism and the hedonism of contemporary Western culture.
It's very hard to reconcile the two.

I certainly don't envy them having to deal with an adolescence trying to reconcile these massively contradictory positions.

I know two muslim lads well who were both into their clubbing, with everything that entailed, had a succession of white girlfriends (with or without the knowledge of parents? Who knows?) then went on to settle down into arranged marriages, kids, Friday prayers etc. I think thats just an exaggerated form of the way everyone goes a bit mental in their youth then settles down.

I can't imagine being brought up in a very devout culture, with a very conservative view of women, then being chucked into an average western city on a Saturday night.

Mrs Binners has actually experienced something similar to the Cologne incident while in Paris with 2 female friends a few years back. They found themselves a bit off the beaten track late at night. They were soon being followed by a large group of north african looking men, who became increasingly sexually aggressive and abusive, using the language described. Unfortunately for them they'd never experienced Wigan Lasses, and when it inevitably graduated onto touching and attempted groping the almighty hoof in the conkers that the ringleader got from Mrs B's ex-army mate soon dissuaded the others for long enough for them to do a runner

She described the experience as being absolutely terrifying, and had genuinely thought she was about to be seriously sexually assaulted

We just can't put up with that kind of thing in a civilised society, I'm afraid. The liberal west has been far far too timid in confronting minorities, islam in particular, about its very engrained, misogynistic and potentially abusive, anti-liberal ideas towards women. That needs to change.

Not least because the failure to deal with it sensitively and sensibly leaves it wide open to exploitation by far right groups who are only too happy to highlight it, and their 'solutions'.

grum

Ok fine I'm sorry - our culture is superior in EVERY way. How could I have been so silly.

Grum, I don't think there's anything wrong, racist or xenophobic in saying you prefer one culture over another. I've never lived in an Islamic culture, but I don't think I'd want to.

No one culture is perfect, but I think in principal a culture that espouses freedom of choice and equality is better than one that subjugates others based on religion, gender or sexual preference.

The liberal west has been far far too timid in confronting minorities, islam in particular, about its very engrained, misogynistic and potentially abusive, anti-liberal ideas towards women. That needs to change.

Couldn't agree more Binners. Glad to hear the Wigan lasses put the boot in for Queen and Country too!

But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries?

Says the man in the middle of a religious civil... ceasefire, Jimjam. 😉

It tells me there is an integration problem. This is along with talking to other people and looking at media reports (although I think a lot of the problems are generally underreported).

I've had rocks chucked at me by white youths. You're making assumptions/generalisations.

We just can't put up with that kind of thing in a civilised society, I'm afraid. The liberal west has been far far too timid in confronting minorities, islam in particular, about its very engrained, misogynistic and potentially abusive, anti-liberal ideas towards women. That needs to change.

There's an element of of truth to this, but you have to very careful not to extrapolate/generalise or rely on gut instinct/subjective experience. People tend to remember negative experiences with people of another race much more than they do those of another race, to quite a massive degree.

When stuff like that happens with white youth (which it does, frequently) do you tend to extrapolate that there is a generalised problem with white young people?

But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries

Wow.

NickC writes:

There is very strong genetic evidence to show that many many species (not just homo) understand that co-operation and kindness is an heredity and evolutionary advantage that pretty much all life on earth uses. If we're using Dawkins then you could (fairly in my opnion) lay a significant amount of blame at his door for his work The Selfish Gene, which espouses the moronic viewpoint that you have opined, that somehow we're at the mercy of our ancestry. It's bollocks.

But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries

is that a trump card?

i'll get my coat....

Edukator

Says the man in the middle of a religious civil... ceasefire, Jimjam.

Yes, well (simplification aside since it's largely a political ceasefire) I'd rather the west was more secular, less theocratic.

But wouldn't the simplest way to deal with the problem be to stop immigration from Muslim countries?

Yes, that would definitely stop women being sexually assaulted by men. 🙄

I've had rocks chucked at me by white youths. You're making assumptions/generalisations.

Assumedly not because ****stan had beaten England at Cricket? Maybe Man U had beaten Liverpool? Unless you present some evidence that the rocks coming your way were inspired by your race or your culture then we must assume that your assumptions about his alleged assumptions are simply moral relativism?

I too (as a boy) was pelted by foreign boys (I was from a neighbouring village). They lobbed stones at me while I was climbing a tree. One half-brick hurt so hard I fell out of the tree. i managed to get on my Puch Pacemaker and make an escape, yet not without one of the bastards denting the rear mudguard with a lucky shot. That mudguard served as a reminder to me that humans can be tribal and cowardly little shits. Unfortunately we don't always see it in ourselves when we ourselves are busy 'throwing stones'.

Right, I've been reading this thread since yesterday and not yet commented. There are some generalisations going on in this thread, about muslims and about non-muslim women.
Firstly, it's a generalisation that Western women like to go out and take drugs, get drunk, like sexualised pop music, and wear sexualised outfits. Some women do, but a lot of us don't- you just don't see us because we're not out in clubs and bars.
Secondly, I spent a few weeks in an outwardly conservative country with an Islamic government that strictly enforces the way people dress, and alcohol and pop music are banned. However, when you look under the surface, plenty of them have pre-marital sex, drink alcohol and listen to pop music. They just do it in secret to avoid being thrown in prison. I also know some muslim families who are conservative both outwardly, and in the privacy of their own home, so you can't generalise.
I didn't notice anyone respnd to what hels said a few pages ago, but some people here seem to be automatically assuming that the women in Cologne were either making it up or were to blame.

Yes, that would definitely stop women being sexually assaulted by men.

A Wow! and a 🙄
If you read my posts above, you will find that I am far from Utopian. My main point remains: there are massive issues with Muslim integration in the West, it would be politically prudent to limit if not stop immigration from Muslim countries. The West also has issues, and they won't be resolved anytime soon.

People tend to remember negative experiences with people of another race much more than they do those of another race, to quite a massive degree.

Grum I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why multiculturalism doesn't work.

Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.

Grum, I don't think there's anything wrong, racist or xenophobic in saying you prefer one culture over another.

It's when it's used to justify the invasion, colonisation and exploitation of other countries that it's a problem. At the root of the British Empire is/was a dangerous sense of superiority.

And it wasn't so long ago that the Welsh, Scottish and Irish were the targets - a threat to 'British values'. Read the newspapers from 150 years ago and you'll find similar descriptions - barbaric, savages, ill educated, violent, sexually profligate etc

My main point remains: there are massive issues with Muslim integration in the West, it would be politically prudent to limit if not stop immigration from Muslim countries. The West also has issues, and they won't be resolved anytime soon.

My point is that separate issues are being conflated because they conveniently support prejudice. There is one common factor regarding the sexual assault of women, and it ain't religion.

The problem is no-one will recognise there is a problem. Or they will mislabel it as our problem (we are all racists after all).
Malmo in Sweden has had this problem for years but nobody cares to talk about it.
And does anyone remember Rochdale?

But you don't need to go after a community, just the perpetrators. There's nothing remotely racist or xenophobic about that. I fear it is beyond the capabilities of the police in may cases, and the fact that in Rochdale many of the victims were not taken seriously may also have played a part.

Ostracising an entire community on the basis of its criminal elements is, however, massively racist and will exacerbate the problem (not that I'm suggesting this is what you are calling for).

Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.

Again. There is much research demonstrating that this view is just not true, but TBH I get the feeling that that doesn't fit your world view, so it seems a pointless to keep pointing this out to you as you're unlikely to want to hear it I suspect.

Firstly, it's a generalisation that Western women like to go out and take drugs, get drunk, like sexualised pop music, and wear sexualised outfits. Some women do, but a lot of us don't- you just don't see us because we're not out in clubs and bars.

Someone's clearly never been to Burnley. 😛

But no, obviously it is a generalisation.

some people here seem to be automatically assuming that the women in Cologne were either making it up or were to blame.

Where has anyone said that?

My point is that separate issues are being conflated because they conveniently support prejudice. There is one common factor regarding the sexual assault of women, and it ain't religion.

This.

Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict

Oh ye gods that just reminded me - a member of my family once made this argument by claiming that black lambs are customarily shunned by white lambs - 'it's just nature'.

'Mixing up the races'!

It's fortunate that keeping foreigners out and preserving racial 'purity' never caused tribalism or much trouble then... 😯

If what you say is true then 'multicultural'/cosmopolitan' London must be an actual war zone today. Unlike racially pure countries such as, er...

Oi, Burnleyist!

Grum I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why multiculturalism doesn't work.

Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.

Or you could just try and recognise your cognitive biases and not let them control you - rather than just accepting being an illogical racist?

If what you say is true then 'multicultural'/cosmopolitan' London must be an actual war zone today. Unlike racially pure countries such as, er...

Yugoslavia was a peaceful nation. Then all hell broke loose along ethnic/tribal divisions.

Weve had 20 years of mass immigration into the UK now. Immigration is the biggest concern of UK voters. I don't see why saying "let's just cool it for a while" is so controversial. 8)

Assumedly not because ****stan had beaten England at Cricket? Maybe Man U had beaten Liverpool? Unless you present some evidence that the rocks coming your way were inspired by your race or your culture then we must assume that your assumptions about his alleged assumptions are simply moral relativism?

Nowhere in his post does it say that the youths said anything about the cricket game or that the two things were linked - sounds like he just made that assumption.

Or you could just try and recognise your cognitive biases and not let them control you - rather than just accepting being an illogical racist?

As the saying goes, I have lots of black/indian/muslim/jewish friends. I don't consider myself to be a racist, but I do think that race matters to many people, hence why races tend to live in the same areas, marry people from the same race etc. I think to ignore this is politically dangerous.

Anyhow, as someone said on another thread, life's too short, so I'm off on my bike.

According to the news just now - up to 1000 men involved.. what?!
How would they even go about arranging such acts and get agreement that it's a great idea from 1000 men. Can't get my head around this at all.

I stay within 5 minutes of the Hauptbahnhoff regularly. Not saying this is the case, but just under the bridges there is a large community that matches the descriptions I've heard of the gangs, so it could have been literally word on the street (it's where I go shopping to avoid mini bar prices :-))

That said, I've never seen the supposed problem with pick pockets etc. and I've been there all hours. Probably don't look worth the bother 😀

If they want to. Maybe they don't want to though?

Maybe, but I don't see why they would be different from local girls.

And what's this 'spake unto the masses' stuff? Is that meant to be some kind of dig?

Not at all, just a silly thing from playing around with the Chrome blocker thingy

have lots of black/indian/muslim/jewish friends. I don't consider myself to be a racist,

The lads certainly go out and take drugs and go on the pull.

I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why multiculturalism doesn't work.

Human nature is inherently tribal and by mixing up the races (multicult) you lay the seeds for ethnic conflict.

Yugoslavia was a peaceful nation. Then all hell broke loose along ethnic/tribal divisions.

well you think "our" culture is superior to other so you must think their way of live/values/attitudes are inferior to "ours"
It follows that you think you are better than them and they are worse than you. If it is not racism then what do your call your western cultural supremacist view?

It doesn't actually. At no point did I say a certain race was superior. I said western civilisation is superior, and I would put that down to a number of almost accidental historical events (especially the rise of Christianity).

You do realise this country has always been mixed races/tribe. england is from the german, the celts/picts were natives, the vikings settled. American is a nation built on immigration.

Yes I realise that. Americans tended to have one thing in common: religion. The same went for Britain after the conversion to Christianity.

Those of you who oppose it need to wake up as millions of folk will never be sent home - most of them are brin "here" now anyway so multiculturalism cannot be put back int he bx. Its a global community these days and you need to learn to embrace t rather tyhan sjout at the tide Canute style

I'm not arguing for repatriation. I'm arguing for an end to mass immigration so things can settle down (hopefully) over time. And I see no reason why I should just "accept" global neo-liberalism.

I read a report from one man that he was walking with his 15 year old daughter and partner when surrounded by a group of over 30 men who groped his daughter and partners breasts and between the legs.

I couldn't even imagine how I would feel in such a situation.

More worrying than that such behaviour went on was despite such behaviour went on and the police were inundated with such reports was that the police submitted a report afterwards saying that it was a quiet night.

And more worrying again was the female mayor suggesting woman should not encourage such behaviour by changing their behaviour.

At no point did I say a certain race was superior.

we are better than them is your view so what do you call this cultural superiority world view if not racists?

I'm not arguing for repatriation. I'm arguing for an end to mass immigration so things can settle down (hopefully) over time

well the ones you know do it. Amazing is it it you meet people who are doing the same things as you. I wonder if that is whY o know so many cyclists?Not suggesting you spend your time doing this but obviously we are more likely to meet the ones doing what we are doing, SOme do this some dont just like white folks.

I'm arguing for an end to mass immigration so things can settle down

You fail to understand that culture and society is dynamic, changes sweep through at different rates, buy they are inevitable

Trying to cling on to a rose tinted view of how we once were, will only make integration less likely,

Trying to make out that Christianity has made the west somehow superior is ridiculous, its only since we shed the ridiculous indoctrinations of the church that our society has improved, yet still it holds us back, see sexual equality, gay marriage, abortion etc etc

Trying to make out that Christianity has made the west somehow superior is ridiculous, its only since we shed the ridiculous indoctrinations of the church that our society has improved, yet still it holds us back, see sexual equality, gay marriage, abortion etc etc

🙄 (Im sorry, it must be catching).

Christianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation, such things like human rights and the importance of the individual have not cropped up in other civilisations for that very reason. I'd recommend you read "Inventing the Individual" by Larry Siedentop an Oxford professor to find more clarity on this issue.

My anecdote - I was at my local hair styling establishment having my hair cut by a new guy of middle-eastern origin. He was interested that I have travelled to quite a few Gulf countries, and when I mentioned that I liked Oman best his response was nothing about the scenery or architecture, he said "Have you ever f***ed an Omani girl?" When I replied in the negative, he responded "Arab girls are hot, man, not like British".

My conclusion was that dickheads come in all colours, and that people of all colour like sex. Revolutionary, I know.

Christianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation, such things like human rights and the importance of the individual have not cropped up in other civilisations for that very reason.

Can you see anything with those blinkeres on ?

The old testament justifies slavery, treated women and children as property and so, its legacy still haunts or society, it wasn't until the scientific method and the enlightenment came along that we manage to start shaking off the mediaeval mentality

Why not Google the Cyrus Cylinder and if you want to talk about a real bedrock look at the concept of citizenship in ancient greece

badnewz

Christianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation,

No. Western Civilisation was/is mainly Christian. These are not the same things. Christianity didn't lay the bedrock of anything, developments in science and technology laid the bedrock of Western Civilaisation. The old counter that most great scientists of the last however many hundred years were christian is a bullshit misnomer since most people were/are from Christian backgrounds.

@Rusty, I'd be delighted to come up and discuss the issue face to face, go,for a ride and have a beer. My wife is always a bit perplexed when I go off riding with people I "met on the internet", perhaps I won't mention JY is coming along too 😉

@Mrs Toast thanks from me for your contribution

The cultural issues we face with different communties here in the UK are [b]nothing[/b] to those which Germany faces with this huge influx of people many of whom have expectations of being able to stay permanently. Approx 40% of the 1.1m asylum seekers currently in Germany are from the Blakans, many where born in Germany after the last wave of refugees but have to mive backmout as you have no right to remain even if you are born there (unlike France or indeed US where birth automatically gives you citizenship). They have been told they cannot remain and Germany has stated Afghanistan is a safe country and citizens from there will not be granted asylum. The scope for conflict is huge.

As for religious conservatisim meaning modest dress and no sex before marriage there are many Chritians who chose to live like that, its not unique to Islam.

@binners a serious topic overall but big smiles for the Paris story.

On cultural integration my wife and I have found quite a few issues where we differ, that's between a francophile Brit and a Parisiennee who has worked for American companies for 10+ years and lived in New York. My point is even between two very similar cultures some quite marked differences exist.

Der Spiegel and Bild have extracts of a police report (reported in the Telegrapgh) with quotes from Syrian refugees mocking the Police. It also states there where attacks in Hamburg, Frankfurt and Stuttgart

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12086473/Suspects-in-Cologne-sex-attacks-claimed-to-be-Syrian-refugees.html ]Telegrapgh[/url]

Strange. You are quite happy to accept Grums view that all of the girls are angels, yet jump on me for suggesting that the boys aren't.
Agenda?

Its obvious some muslims live like westerners and some westerners live like Muslims. I often joke with my mate [ due to my clean lifestyle] that i am better Muslim than he is.

Christianity laid the bedrock of Western civilisation,

Again it depends what you pick. Most of our advancements , IMHO, arise form ignoring the bible teachings and embracing science and enlightenment. Alos the greeks said a thing or two about democracy and philosophy and the arabs about maths and science.

@kimbers and @jimjam, you would be hard pressed to find a respected professionally trained historian who would disagree with the statement that Christianity is foundational to Western civilisation.
And @kimbers you should recall Christianity is based on the New Testament more than it is the Old.
@Junkyard the reason you think Christianity has had periods of injustice is down to the fact that you have a moral ethical system based on Christianity in the first place, e.g. persecution of minorities is wrong, I'd agree with this, but non-Christian cultures would not necessarily subscribe.
"Imperial" Christianity was at root anti-Christian - this is what happens when politics and power structures pollutes religion. It does not in itself disprove the validity of Christian moral ethics, which I think are rather commendable.

@kimbers and @jimjam, you would be hard pressed to find a respected professionally trained historian who would disagree with the statement that Christianity is foundational to Western civilisation.

And @kimbers you should recall Christianity is based on the New Testament more than it is the Old.

I do agree the tone of the NT is pretty good and JC was a decent guy where as the OT Is much more fire and brimstone vengeful god.

It does not in itself disprove the validity of Christian moral ethics, which I think are rather commendable.

There are lots and lots of dodgy moral teaching in the bible ranging from treatment of h brothers wifes to taking prostitutes.
Those who argue as you do seem to ignore this sort of thing

"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Awesome moral code there

JC did not repeal that much of the OT that i recall Lex talionis being one but not a great deal more. He certainly did not get rid of the ten commandments nor the preaching on homosexuality or women folk.

This is really important and a good point to discuss. Jesus said he had come to fulfil the law, not to overturn it.

But he does radically change the law in the sermon on the mount, e.g. "You have heard it said, but...no longer an eye for an eye but love your enemy".

The so called golden rule is approached in Judaism and Islam but I don't think it is ever voiced as clearly as it is in the NT.

I agree about the foundational importance of Greek platonic philosophy too to Western civ.

Bloody hell this is almost like a reasonable discussion. WTF!

It i sworth reading the NT and there are some great parable in there

I always like the parable of the sower as it explains how socio economic factors can influence your outcomes in life 😉

LOt of good in what JC said and hard to disagree with most of it,

OT is very outdated and, frankly , bonkers in parts.

Islam has rules about living side by side with people of the faiths. I am not sure what their teachings are on the "enemy" but I will ask my mates.