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Earlier today, I had an unscheduled conference call with a colleague about a project we are both working on. What was supposed to be a quick call turned out to be nearly a two hour ramble about all sorts of unrelated minutiae - I could barely get a word in edge ways and, in reality, the call shouldn't have taken more than 15 minutes.
Anyway, this is fairly typical of this colleague who is otherwise excellent. Her work is REALLY good and well thought out, but bloody hell, she's hard work sometimes and it's starting to adversely impact my work and makes me reluctant to engage with her verbally (I'd rather she ask me specific questions via email or Teams or similar)
I don't manage her, though, and I don't want to piss her off or otherwise damage our working relationship.
So, how do I (gently?) correct her behaviour (prefably by stop talking and start listening to others)?
Try and avoid unscheduled calls and be brutally honest in a good natured way ie just interrupt her at a natural pause and ask exactly what she wants in layman's terms so she doesn't feel undermined.
That you're listening and perhaps nodding, not saying much, might be interpreted as you're listening and appreciate the information and explanations she's giving you. Maybe get better at (politely) interrupting people and try to shift the balance a bit. Also you could have a weekly or whatever catchup - as much of a waste of time such meetings can be, it means you can defer much of the chatter into one predictable time block.
Get yourself a copy of surrounded by idiots.
Have a read. It's quite interesting (especially if like me you're a long way out in one category). Has some good practical guidance.
Also ideal for reading on the train make sure you hold it up where people can see it. 🙂
No agenda no atenda for all meetings
and follow it!
In all seriousness, you should at least have a list of things that are for information sharing and or require decisions. Whoever asks for the meeting should provide that. If it’s not in the teams invitation, decline the meeting saying you don’t know what it’s for. People soon get the message.
And surrounded by idiots may help you understand others approach to things. But grown ups in a business need to act like them.
just interrupt her at a natural pause
Thing is, there aren't any natural pauses! She seems to have mastered breathing and talking at the same time and her conversation just jumps all over the place...often, I'm telling her something and she just talks over me.
She'd probably be mortified if she realized how off putting she can be.
Always have a meeting agenda, literally bullet pointed in the invite...
..and anyone who dares to digress, shut that shit down and minute it for another meeting as 'follow up points/actions" or the classic 'let's take this offline'...
Maybe get better at (politely) interrupting people and try to shift the balance a bit
It's a hard balance to strike between being too passive and telling people to shut the **** up, to be fair, it's a skill in itself.
In all seriousness, you should at least have a list of things that are for information sharing and or require decisions. Whoever asks for the meeting should provide that. If it’s not in the teams invitation, decline the meeting saying you don’t know what it’s for. People soon get the message.
She told me in advance what the meeting was going to be about (in general terms) and all the topics were tangentially related to the subject but the meeting just descended into a whole load of improbably "what ifs"
People don't change unless they see the need to.
You see a need for her to change for your benefit, does she see a need to change?
Can you show her the hour and a half of her life she lost? If she thought the conversation went well and got what she wanted out of it, there is no reason for her to change.
Can you just get her to email you? Can you just respond via text(based) mediums to avoid the conversations?
My sister worked on the phone selling stuff for years. When she's had enough of my long rambling chats I get " great to speak to you, thanks for the call, I'll let you get on with ( something I've mentioned) speak soon" and she's off the phone in 30 seconds. Polite, to the point and done. No one more thing, no while I've got you here. Just a clean end.
She is bad at returning calls and I can sing her voicemail message. So can our mum and dad.
Try my sister's tactics. I ramble on the phone and so does my mum 😃
Devils advocate here but is her obsession with detail and what ifs why her work is so good?
Yep got this all over the shop with a number of repeat offenders at work.
As per above. Agenda.
When it turns into rambling: Take offline
Also you can pretend you have a clashing meeting to go to in 10 minutes. Then ask them what they want to get out of the time remaining.
Devils advocate here but is her obsession with detail and what ifs why her work is so good?
Absolutely. But I'm not the person to provide all that detail, and that level of detail only reveals itself as the project matures. (Luckily, this isn't a major infrastructure project so it's not like we have to decide how low or how high a bridge or something needs to be!)
Read The Four Hour Work Week.
Although stop before it gets to the part where it tells you to get an Indian to take your unscheduled calls for you.
Or don't.
At least it sounds kind of productive. Bloke at work (my peer, same level, nice enough, but a bit dim) is much much worse. He manages to amplify his own bullshit.
Talks about what he happens to be doing as if it's the most important thing in the entire organisaton (it isn't), sponsored at the top level (it isn't) and suggests all his team take an interest in it (it isn't interesting) and apply it it their own work (it's not applicable).
Causes no end of useless spin off conversations trying to work out how to follow up on what he's asked that go absolutely nowhere.
Absolutely. But I’m not the person to provide all that detail, and that level of detail only reveals itself as the project matures. (Luckily, this isn’t a major infrastructure project so it’s not like we have to decide how low or how high a bridge or something needs to be!)
If you're an 'invitee' rather than the chair of the meeting, it's more socially complicated, especially as I imagine you could be doing more productive things for your own workload rather than listening to verbal diarrhoea.
There's a balance, of course, and you may need to get assertive to the point some others feel you are being rude... I've not managed to find that balance yet, especially with serial 'talkers', so if you figure it out, let me know!
If she talks all over you then just match her. I had a manager who just talked non stop even when asking me a question so I just found the only way to stop him was to keep talking when he interrupted and find the strength to keep going until he stopped. It's like training a poorly behaved dog.
If she talks all over you then just match her. I had a manager who just talked non stop even when asking me a question so I just found the only way to stop him was to keep talking when he interrupted and find the strength to keep going until he stopped. It’s like training a poorly behaved dog.
Yep, I know that feeling...been there!
Conversley, I've been forced by my manager to chair meetings with customers I have good relations with, when we all, already know what's going on, so we just spend half an hour chit chatting about computer games or whatever.
I had a manager who just talked non stop even when asking me a question
That's a sure fire way to induce rage in me... but I'm working on it. ...not just in work, but in real life too... nothing makes me more angry then when I'm asked a question, but the asker moves onto a new subject before I've had chance to get a word in edge-ways.
That’s a sure fire way to induce rage in me… but I’m working on it. …not just in work, but in real life too… nothing makes me more angry then when I’m asked a question, but the asker moves onto a new subject before I’ve had chance to get a word in edge-ways.
That's what triggered me today. I've been working with this girl for about six years and I'm finding my tolerance is gradually being eroded...
Always have a meeting agenda, literally bullet pointed in the invite…
..and anyone who dares to digress, shut that shit down and minute it for another meeting as ‘follow up points/actions” or the classic ‘let’s take this offline’…
I think you might have missed the point - these sound like they are the “off line” or “follow up” discussions!
Some possibilities:
- she’s lonely working from home and just wants to talk to another human being; you are an excuse to do that. I have a colleague like that. Put 15 minutes a day in to to catch up with them rather than a giant meeting once a week - much less draining.
- she’s feeling swamped and needs reassurance that all these issues have been considered and are under control. People like that produce written docs that nobody reads. Show her you have read and understood the written stuff and she will likely feel less need to explain it all.
- she’s a rambling mess. Quick fix is to set a time limit at the start of your call - “really sorry I only have 15 minutes today” and stick to it. Longer term fix (if she is constantly scheduling rambling calls) is to schedule your own call with you agenda to discuss how to manage the workload/topics and define (and stick to) an approach that will help her be more focussed. You don’t need to be someone’s reporting line to “coach” someone like this. She may even replicate it in other area of her work to get more achieved.
- she’s got a shit boss or project manager who should be getting this stuff sorted but isn’t. Take it up with them!
It may be all of the above!
Another option:
- she is one of thoae people who think that if they were chatting about work-related stuff with colleagues all day, then they were really busy with work all day!
I have a direct report who is prone to stream of consciousness and doesn't read cues: we have to correct this document - but we should also include the new logo - and have you spoken to Jenny about the logo - Jenny is very stressed because of Paul's sick leave - and that's why the loading door hasn't been fixed - and it slows down deliveries including to a client - and actually they might sue us for being late - so should we talk to the lawyer before we correct the document? No, just edit the document like you know we need to!!!
One of our senior managers will just out something as a "time thief" in a meeting stop the discussion and move on to the next item on the agenda, he's very polites and it keeps things on schedule and stops wandering off topic.
I tend to leave mid meeting once my bit is done as I've no need to sit there wasting my time with other items on the agenda that don't need my input. I politely excuse myself and others understand. Tricky to do this in a 1:1 meeting...
The above two inputs are very empathetic to see why she's communicating as she is.
Another could be does she have ADHD or similar?
I think you might have missed the point – these sound like they are the “off line” or “follow up” discussions!
Correct in this case but she's the same whichever type of meeting she's involved in.
she’s feeling swamped and needs reassurance that all these issues have been considered and are under control. People like that produce written docs that nobody reads. Show her you have read and understood the written stuff and she will likely feel less need to explain it all.
Yup, that's her. She'll fire stuff back at because I made an off-the-cuff remark six months ago when the project scope hadn't been fully defined and has done a whole load of unnecessary work I didn't ask her to do, or deliberately included items I've told her are out-of-scope or very low priority/for "later" on a "just in case" basis which then morph into overly complex solutions and more "noise". 🤷
I think you might have missed the point – these sound like they are the “off line” or “follow up” discussions!
Some possibilities:
– she’s lonely working from home and just wants to talk to another human being; you are an excuse to do that. I have a colleague like that. Put 15 minutes a day in to to catch up with them rather than a giant meeting once a week – much less draining.
– she’s feeling swamped and needs reassurance that all these issues have been considered and are under control. People like that produce written docs that nobody reads. Show her you have read and understood the written stuff and she will likely feel less need to explain it all.
Very good points...
During covid lockdown (and for remote working generally) I generaly try to set a 30 min team meeting evey day, late afternon just to talk shit/decompress whether that be 'the vpn's a bit dodgy today, or what you ate last night, or whatever, more of a social thing.
..not a mandatory meeting, but it helps.
she’s feeling swamped and needs reassurance
That might also be a factor, a bit of affirmation helps a lot, but I don't know the person in question... I know people that can talk so fast and so loud they suck the oxygen out of the room to the point I, at best, switch off mentally, and at worst become quite confrontational.
Communication is a two way street, so I think we all have to make allowances, but also try to recognise where we might not come across in the best way, that goes for all parties.
More easily said than done, in some circumstances I agree!
It sounds like she could benefit from some kind of training or coaching that focuses on focus. Maybe if she has designs on senior positions you could suggest shadowing someone high up and try and get over the need for brevity.
One of our senior managers will just out something as a “time thief” in a meeting stop the discussion and move on to the next item on the agenda,
Brutal, but effective, lol! I like it!
I have a direct report who is prone to stream of consciousness and doesn’t read cues: we have to correct this document – but we should also include the new logo – and have you spoken to Jenny about the logo – Jenny is very stressed because of Paul’s sick leave – and that’s why the loading door hasn’t been fixed – and it slows down deliveries including to a client – and actually they might sue us for being late – so should we talk to the lawyer before we correct the document? No, just edit the document like you know we need to!!!
Exactly this (without the direct report)! It's maddening sometimes. She's also previously complained to me about not being included in various other meetings with other teams and I'm now figuring out why...
..
Also you can pretend you have a clashing meeting to go to in 10 minutes. Then ask them what they want to get out of the time remaining
Is this not a helpful strategy from el boufadour? Ive had to use it at work and it could be a good way to get focus on the real point of their call in the time remaining, or just get out of sitting through a rambling monologue.
Could you say how long you have for the meeting when you arrange it?
This is very therapeutic for me, I thought not being able to deal with this was just my problem and itis indeed maddening. As was mentioned some people just can't unravel what the real issue is and so just dump everything out at equal priority. Unfortunately some are also very bright and there are real nuggets of good information in all that unload.
I tend to let people unload but put a time limit on it and also try and control that chat by interrupting to check I understand and pull the conversation back on track while still allowing them to talk for all the reasons poly mentioned. But it is annoying when you are short of time and very focused normally
Constructive feedback is needed here. Look up “SIBR” (Situation, Impact, Behaviour Response) feedback model. The key to this is preparation for the conversation - considering things from their point of view and articulating the important points clearly but kindly.
You would actually be helping them as it won’t be just you this affects and it will limit their effectiveness and career growth.
Who labelled it a "Conference " call? Was it just the two of you?
Maybe she wanted to get her money's worth?
Re-label it a" call" and it will be all the briefer.
You make it, unscheduled, preferably when you think she may be busy.
Be tolerant, considerate and educational. <br /><br />
im a very talkative person prone to longs stories although I’m also a good listener. I’ve been told twice in my career to be concise, get to the point etc. The first time I just stopped talking and then got told my peer colleagues felt I was “aloof”.
I understand why and took some online courses, and now work to write down my salient points, rehearse my meeting content, vocabulary and re-read and shorten emails.
OP you can be in danger of stifling someone’s personality and/or knocking their confidence. Everybody has a right to a voice so perhaps work with your colleague or manager to help her conversational structure. This can easily be done and many resources are available to help her improve. I’m sure she’d value it if it is provided in the right way.
Vlad - male?
"My prostate is causing me problems, this can't be a long meeting"
2 things.
If she is going off on one , and asks a question just pause for a few seconds without replying.
If she's abit hyper she will instantly say "are you still there"
Then you pause and say something along the lines of " That's alot to take in, give me a minute to digest it , thanks." Then pause again.
It breaks up the verbal diarrhea.
Or , if this is her standard operating procedure simply text before " I have another call at 11am which is dependent on the outcome of this one and I will need time to prepare for that"
Things like team charters and retros can help with this. Obviously not very helpful if your business structures don't lend themselves to these sort of things.
You should also put your hand up when she's on a roll. If you have cameras on, do it physically. If there is only 2 of you on the call and she just continues after you've raised your hand, then you need a discussion with her line manager.
Oh and what @Kryton57 said
I work with an Italian academic who can go for 10 minutes just with noises and hand gestures, never mind the actual talking. Thank god English is not his first language.
I have a colleague very much like this. I won’t take unscheduled Team’s calls with them, I always pass them onto voicemail. I always drop a quick message back saying ‘on another phone call’ or just in the middle of something’ or similar, and ask them to ping back a short message with the topic to discuss. I’ll then decide whether it needs a call to discuss or whether I can respond by email/teams. If it does need a call I schedule no more than 15 mins for this person with a clear one agenda point. I haven’t got time to sort somebody’s inability to be professional at work, they’re not my direct report and so I just deal with the symptoms, which actually works out ok.
I don’t understand how you have worked with her for 6 years and never had the chance to kindly mention this, in whatever approach you know would work best with her?
As others have said, it’s the kind thing to do. If you are not sure how to approach then maybe ask her boss how they manage her? (In a kind way to her, something like you want to make the most of her skills and work with her more, how best to achieve this).
Also, how hard is it to interrupt and say something like “sorry, I’m just conscious of time, we only had 15 minutes and I need to get on. If this needs more time would it be worth starting a document, especially if it is quite a complex issue?”
People like this can be valuable. Likely they have a lot to say because they’ve been thinking about it quite a lot. They may be the type to lie awake at night worrying, so come in and want to download to someone. So channelling that without causing negative impact is really powerful.
I’m just glad that when I did work in an office environment, if you actually had to directly tell your colleagues to STFU and get back to the subject you were discussing , then there would be no comebacks from HR and the like.
Had to be a bit more polite when in the company of outsiders though . Particularly tough when all I need is an answer from an architect as to where they want me to put my massive steel beam and they want to discuss with the engineer how a shadow gap would look if when flying over the building.
That scene from Legend where Ronnie turns up for a gunfight perfectly summed up my feelings on that one.
Her's another point of view, and I sometimes have to deal with some windy colleagues. But I also have to deal with people who, when we're discussing something, just want to get out of their 'effective' meeting a.s.ap. and rush meetings like crazy. The end result is the decision made is useless as we've skipped so much stuff to get to a decision, and we have to do the whole thing again, properly
She sounds very detail orientated - are you? Are the details important? Recalling stuff from a long time ago isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If you're convinced it really is hot air, then get better at steering them. Saying it makes you ineffective and you don't want to talk to her isn't going to impress your manager.
She can see your calendar, yes? Add a really important vapourware meeting directly after the one with her.
Where I work, we have a lot of fairly pointless meetings. Like, half my working week. But the chairs of the meetings are very good at going "well, we've reached our allotted time so we'll have to wrap up there for now, enjoy the rest of your day."
At a previous job we got so many support calls it became impossible to get any work done. We implemented a policy where we would only accept support requests by email unless the report was "my email isn't working." It was surprising how many people's vitally important issues suddenly weren't important enough to spend five minutes writing it down.
As someone else suggested, she's only talking over because you're letting her; talk over her straight back.
Is she WFH on her own by any chance? Is she lonely?
Some people just like to hear the sound of their own voice. I used to work with someone on the next desk who just chunnered away to herself constantly, it drove me mad.
1) Put a time constraint in at the beginning.
2) “What were you hoping the outcome of this meeting would be?”
Consider doing what Lares had to suffer 😉
Never go in without an exit strategy:
Tell her you have another meeting in an hour, and you'll need 15 minutes to prepare.
Arrange for a colleague or friend to call you at a pre-arranged time: "Sorry, this is important"
Interrupt at some point and say "I've got 15 minutes, tell me the most important thing".
I used to just wander off from the new manager that could talk forever with no understanding of the subject or colleagues experience and without pause to take anything on board, leaving it to my line manager to explain to them that I thought they were talking balls and was off to do the job I was being under resourced for whilst they were wasting my time.
That was towards the end of me losing it with the employer generally though 😄
Do you get the point tho'. And all the details, or are you the hopeless one who needs a rerun later as they didn't listen in the first place