[Closed] Colleagues leaving en masse... Any other comparisons?

Maybe no one in management feels they can influence the root cause of these people leaving rather than not caring?

The whole of the NHS basically, dedication only lasts so long when you have no pay rise & have mouths to feed (NHS lab staff here)

Maybe no one in management feels they can influence the root cause

Unfortunately this is probably the case. I know that's the reality in local government where a couple of my friends are managers.

Brack- London? I do the same work but in sunny cumbria, and folks seem happy with their lot up here, but I guess the pressures of the big city are different?

[url= http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9299482/londons-999-emergency/ ]Spectator article about London paramedics[/url]

I've seen a few teachers leave the profession over the last year or two.

management love people leaving, it allows them to create new management posts with the savings made by the lower grades leaving. ex NHS employee twice left.

Drac to this post!

Scottish Fire service (aberdeen) is the same. Its crossed my mind more than once in the last few weeks 😐

23yrs + service counts for **** all to the bean counting government civil servants

Bro in law is a cop in Aberdeen. They're losing cops at a crazy rate over the past two years or so.

Aberdeen/Grampian especially - used to be a good force much like Northern.

There was a story going round a while back about an HR bod from one of the oil companies phoning Aberdeen HQ to ask WTF was going on as they had 30 cops CVs on their desk one Monday morning.

The takeover by Strathclyde is the worst thing that could have happened.

Agree with bruneep about the fire service in Scotland. You used to very rarely hear of people leaving, now they are leaving in droves. There's only so many 0% pay rises people can put up with, especially with the pension increases, currently about 13% set to be close to 15%. The enthusiasm for the job is rock bottom right now.

Great ape,
Same with the fire service, not so much Scottish more like a branch of Strathclyde,everyone is undergoing changes and cuts except them it seems.

MrsMC works in local government - her team was halved in the last round of cuts, half of the reminder have since retired, gone part time or gone altogether. She is looking for a move away from the team as well

I'm in central government - more of a trickle rather than a flood. Suspect that cuts to pensions, no pay/promotion prospects and increased management inefficiency are making people realise that the old days of gold plated civil service packages have gone and that any incentive to stay and hang on regardless has gone.

Maybe Mr Cameron might like to think about all those who are continuing to deliver front line services in his era of austerity in accordance with the wishes of his government, and wonder whether they deserve some financial recognition, cos if you think it is bad now, it ain't getting better anytime soon...

Biomedical Scientists. Me included. Sick of being asked to cut corners and to do more with less. You can only go so far and then you hit an event horizon. "Hey, look! A Black Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......." Fffft! 🙄

management love people leaving

exact opposite. You now have the soul destroying task of trying to recruit people at far below market rates. You start to look forward to the telephone interview where the candidate, a) dials the right number and b) speaks english you can understand 🙁

40% of teachers leave the profession in 5 years, or something like that. Shit training, shit support once in post and shitting mental expectations are the problems. Seen a lot of teachers leave my current school too. Sucks.

Mrs ton has 31 yrs in with local government. 1% rise in 5 yrs.
had to go for a interview for her job 2 week ago, a job she has been doing for the last 14 yrs.

she is trying for early leavers initiative.

One job at a time.... until your 66...

The cuts etc. are having a big impact on the service that's now provided, but what I find worse is the senseless imposition of the Strathclyde way on the rest of the country. It's just appalling arrogance and control freakery from the top, and doesn't even save any money! Aberdeen is not Inverness, Inverness is not Stirling, Stirling is not Edinburgh etc. None of them are Glasgow. We're no longer allowed to police the area in the way we know works, same for your cops, same for everyone except the weegies, and the only reason they're not bothered now is because he came and wrecked their force six years ago. That's been far more demoralising than no pay rises, 14% pension contributions etc. - those I can live with, and while I don't particularly like it I can see why it is so. The rest, it's just bollocks. Sorry, rant over 🙂

exact opposite. You now have the soul destroying task of trying to recruit people at far below market rates. You start to look forward to the telephone interview where the candidate, a) dials the right number and b) speaks english you can understand

But surely thats down to poor management , staff leave, new staff are needed and the wage the previous staff had has been stolen to pay for something else, probably management , so lower paid staff have to be recruited.

great ape you Aberdeen based?

Par for the course in Social Work.

Have four close family members / friends who are teachers (sister, bro and sister in law, wife's best friend). Without exception they have all gone from loving the job to absolutely hating it within the last two years. Dunno what happened exactly, but something fundamentally changed and ruined it for them.

No, across the other side

poor management

what is your definition of management? Pay policy is not defined by managers. In the most case they are trying to do the best they can in the constraints of the policy makers. They too will also be suffering from 0% pay rises, increased pension contributions, crap morale etc... sometimes I feel I'm on the helm of a sinking ship

Pretty blinkered to think it is the managers fault who for the most part will be doing their best (yes you get rubbish ones, just like every role). Its a policy issue.

I had a chap leave a couple of weeks ago. £20k payrise and working closer to home. I said well done and good luck to him.

Not the same field but im a mechanic, i left my job last week along with 3 others. That only left 2 people in the workshop, management didn't seem to care, didn't want to know that the reason we left was them.

It's not just restricted to the public sector. I did work for a small, nimble, fun, Southern Californian software company. A truly great place to work. We got bought out by a bunch of Texan bean counting, box-shifting cretins who failed to take on any of our culture and ruined the company. We've had droves of great people leave. It's now just a job. 😥

"Dunno what happened exactly, but something fundamentally changed and ruined it for them."

That's easy to answer.

A Tory government and their public service hating dogma.

Any other professions experiencing the same exodus of staff ?

Funnily enough.

Drac to this post!

/waves

Biomedical Scientists. Me included. Sick of being asked to cut corners and to do more with less. You can only go so far and then you hit an event horizon. "Hey, look! A Black Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......." Fffft!

Biomed is going to hit a crisis at some point as the supply of trainee Biomedical Scientists is effectively zero, there's no damn positions going.

It's not just restricted to the public sector. I did work for a small, nimble, fun, Southern Californian software company. A truly great place to work. We got bought out by a bunch of Texan bean counting, box-shifting cretins who failed to take on any of our culture and ruined the company. We've had droves of great people leave. It's now just a job.

Everything is about short term profits for shareholders so bean counters unfortunately become board members.

Human resources, litigation and the internet have also ruined the world of work, there was a time when you could get a job by turning up unannounced and showing enthusiasm throughout all walks of life. Companies recruited for enthusiasm and trained to develop skill, these days, human resources types get together in meetings and riff off a dozen of "core competencies" that become increasingly hilarious such as "being a good negotiator" for a lab technicians position. They then work out how little they can pay you and would rather advertise a job for months instead of training someone new, if that person turns out to be a **** they fire them and move onto the next person. They won't allow anyone to be taken on informally in an unpaid position for a few weeks with the view of eventually giving them paid work.

I'd rather have been 18 in 1920's New York, much more opportunity for people who operate like myself.

exodus of staff...where are they going, private sector?

My two fields, teaching and social work have people leaving constantly.

Just sounds like evidence of a strong jobs market to me. I know my sector has gone crazy over the last 12 months and staff turnover has rocketed. Those who have only experienced the post crash years don't remember previous booms and tight jobs markets.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
40% of teachers leave the profession in 5 years, or something like that. Shit training, shit support once in post and shitting mental expectations are the problems. Seen a lot of teachers leave my current school too. Sucks.

Yep, that's my experience too. I'm two years in and wondering how many more I'll do unless the work life balance gets a little more in the favour of 'life'. Our department, and the school in general, has a high turnover - mostly experienced staff leaving and Newly Qualified Teachers coming in. Of the six people I trained with doing science on my PGCE, three have already had enough.

Quite a few in my fire brigade leaving too. That and chucking their rank in and going back to fire fighter

Working my notice at the moment. When i go I'll be the eighth paramedic I leave our small station since February. Anyone who can get out, does. Anyone with different qualifications is exploring their options ASAP. Sadly I've only ever been an ambulance man, so my skill set is limited but my skills bought me a job at hq, away from the road for now while I gain some more practical skills. Why is everyone leaving? Work load up, responsibility up, conditions down, security down, safety down. Realistically I'm more likely to retire through injury than I am old age, I'm already carrying long term injuries, I've got kids and a mortgage, I need some security an the reassurance that I'll still have a job in 2 years time. NHS 111, minor injury units, teaching roles, primary care roles, there is options out there...

40% of teachers leave the profession in 5 years, or something like that.

Is it high, well yes it is when you consider the training is at least a year and the chronic shortages of good teachers. The wages are enough to attract people in but not good people. Do you have any evidence to back up your view of post grads leaving other professions at such a high rate? The figure also hides the massive number who leave the state sector very quickly or just go straight to private schools.

WTF are "professional services" 😉

I'm a Paramedic... I have been for nearly twenty years.

We are currently losing I'd say at least one person a week at the moment.

No one in management seems to give a damn.

Any other professions experiencing the same exodus of staff ?

I'm guessing you must be in London then?
We lost 28 last month and 26 the month before, currently 500 ambulance staff short.
On a brighter note though, 17 of our senior managers are currently on a three week jolly to Australia to recruit anyone they can lay their hands on 😯

14+ hour shifts often with only one break after the first 8 hours or more, grabbing a drink of water where you can, nipping to the toilet if you can, no seeing the kids for 3 or 4 days, increasing skills for effectively falling pay, increasing workloads everyday, being the point of complaint for the system failing and people having a go at you for waiting 2+ hrs for an ambulance, attending serious incidents exhausted and expected to give your best. The appeal is wearing thin now, I've been in ambulance service 25 years next week. I've seen the job change over the years but the workload the last 5 years particularly the last 3 is unreal, we're crippled under workloads but the service is expected keep on saving money. I still love the essentials of the job, patient care, however I'm struggling to give that my best shifts after shift.

On a brighter note though, 17 of our senior managers are currently on a three week jolly to Australia to recruit anyone they can lay their hands on

****s

is that really such a high number? five years is a long time to keep fresh entrants in any market. I don't have stats but that sounds right for the Super Efficient Private Sector that I worked in (journalism, consultancy, professional services).

+1 I'm one of 3 of 16 left in my role after 6 years, although most went to the same job elsewhere for varying reasons.

Sounds very familiar.
Can't remember the last time I had a break on a shift, must be at least three months ago.
Crews regularly attending calls that are 6+ hours old.
The sickest people being left waiting while the idiot 18yr olds with a cold are getting a fast response.
It's all looking rather grim at the moment.

Public sector science, what used to be known as "scientific civil service" - making research/tech people do so much of their own HR, purchasing, Safety, QM (and sending them on the the associated courses) that they look around and see that these new skills can earn them at least double their salary in private sector.

Drac thats pretty grim. Its the same in teaching and whilst teaching may not be as life or death the life chances of these kids are whats affected. My dept budget has been cut by 33% this is after staffing so only a small total cut. What it means is that despite not having enough text books I'm not allowed to photocopy stuff, we started the year with no exercise books either, I get about 10 gluesticks for the year and 20 pencils, most teachers buy their own board pens. What this means is that I reckon I spend about £15-20 a week buying things to support my teaching, I cannot do many of the experiments I want to do as they cost too much and from next year for a levels there is a list of compulsory experiments to do, we dont have half the kit needed to do them. I love my job and despite not being an "outstanding" teacher my results are one of the top few in the school, but this sucks out all the joy. Despite my left wing idealogies I cant see myself staying in the state sector much longer. I dont want more money for me, although I wouldnt refuse it, I just want to be able to be the best I can be and so get the best I can for the kids I teach.

The pressure on frontline healthcare staff is unrelenting, probably the worst I've ever known it... and it's not even winter yet.

If Jeremy Twunt were to appear in the corridor of my hospital, I'd have to fast-bleep security in order to restrain myself from doing harm. 😈

Is it high, well yes it is when you consider the training is at least a year and the chronic shortages of good teachers. The wages are enough to attract people in but not good people. Do you have any evidence to back up your view of post grads leaving other professions at such a high rate? The figure also hides the massive number who leave the state sector very quickly or just go straight to private schools.

professional services = desk job

I don't have any stats, perhaps they are out there. anecdotally lawyers and accountants drop out a lot.

Or perhaps you are just wrong?

There was a story going round a while back about an HR bod from one of the oil companies phoning Aberdeen HQ to ask WTF was going on as they had 30 cops CVs on their desk one Monday morning.

The takeover by Strathclyde is the worst thing that could have happened.

Don't think that Strathclyde was left unchanged either, we just got the changes first before we became one.

Even over on the west coast, folk are leaving the job, and many more whom a couple of years ago I wouldn't have thought would say it, are vocally talking about jacking it.

Or perhaps you are just wrong?

I think you're mistaking me for someone who's making a big point. I'm just saying that a 40% dropout rate from a profession after 5 years doesn't actually seem that high.

Yes but you have no evidence to show you are right.

Here’s another perspective: 404,600 fully trained teachers under the age of 60 are no longer teaching, compared to around half a million still actively working in English and Welsh schools. So that’s almost half of the qualified teachers in the country not actually teaching. And it’s getting worse: some 47,700 teachers left their jobs in the year 2010-11, up from 40,070 in 2009-10. That’s a lot of teachers.

Ape, I voted with my feet and left Grampian legacy last July, a few days after turning fifty. Took a big drop on the pension but was so disappointed with how short sighted working to stats was in rural policing, along with the dwindling resourcing based on the crime reports for the area and the implementation of global cover. The latter saw many rural areas unpoliced for days, resulting in public loss of confidence. Rather than trying to hide the fact I openly explained to the often angry and disappointed complainer that the reason it took three days for them to be seen was because there had been no-one working the section for that time.

Tip of the iceberg.

Also work for an Ambulance service. Not front line so I don't know how many are leaving, however we've started recruiting for Paramedics and there's been a freeze on Paramedic recruitment for years.
I could give a bit of a rant to why my direct colleagues are leaving, but I'll leave that for the day I do (soon hopefully)

I have just suggested to my bosses boss that given the ongoing pay restraint in tbe public sector, the best thing I can do for my familys short-medium financial security is to die in service, right now.

He was a little shocked, but couldn't explain why I might be wrong.

He is probably now wondering what to do if his first aider keels over in the workplace.....

They won't allow anyone to be taken on informally in an unpaid position for a few weeks with the view of eventually giving them paid work.

While there's much in the world of HR that frustrates managers, having robust and fair recruitment processes isn't one that causes me any problems. I'd rather pick from a diverse pool of talent than have to train someone that got the position because Daddy plays golf with the MD.

Being willing to work for a few weeks unpaid might demonstrate commitment and willingness to make sacrifices, but it also might just demonstrate that that person is fortunate enough to have a family that supports them financially, which is not, in my book, a good enough reason to give them the job over someone with bills to pay.

I work for a Govt Agency and things have gone daft, was told that there were going to be a lot of people going this summer, this has now been put back to November, my department has been ringfenced which means we are going to lose 10 people out of a team of 36 over 3 offices. I am front line do incident response etc just heard that 3 other teams who are not frontline have been taken out of the ringfence. I now have about 9 layers of management above me which as far as I can see do **** all apart from have meetings about meetings about saving money. We are being bled dry but at the same time all these spurious posts have been created that dont contribute anything.

Do more with less, well that only goes so far then the machine breaks down.

[i]half of the qualified teachers in the country not actually teaching[/i]

and how many other people in the population are not working in areas that their degrees covered? Just lookign at someone's degree and saying 'well you're not doing that anymore' isn't a good measure.

My wife took a few years out of teaching when we started a family so would have fallen into that camp.

I think the biggest threat to the teaching profession (and children's learning) is that academies and free schools do not need to employ qualified teachers. It may be that the number of qualified teachers not teaching increases for the foreseeable future as academies/free schools decide they can save money by employing people who are cheaper.

Add drug workers to the list. Mrs Daz is a senior drug worker in the greater Manchester area. They've been tendered out twice in the last 3 years and tuped over to new organisations each time. After the latest one the new health trust didn't even give them computers to use, they had 2 computers for a staff of 20. They've been 'restructured' and everyone apart from a couple of managers has been downgraded, which means a 25% pay cut in two years time when the TUPE protection period ends (that's if they're not tendered out again!), that's on top of the pay freeze which has lasted the past 5 years. Oh and they've had all their caseloads increased by 50%. Half the staff have been off sick with stress and depression, the other half are leaving of their own accord and being replaced with agency staff with no experience on half the salary. The only people doing well out of this fiasco are the managers, who are all being kept busy by all the restructuring and system changes.

and how many other people in the population are not working in areas that their degrees covered? 

Post graduate professional qualification so not even close to saying same degree. But in answer to your question I have no idea, you tell me. I've stated my view with figures to back it up. If you want to tell me I'm wrong you need to step it up a little.

this (from 2010) suggests that

[i]Its survey of 700 graduates found that six out of 10 were working in a field or profession not related to the degree they studied. [/i]

so maybe teachers are doing better than the average?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7535847/Most-graduates-not-in-jobs-linked-to-their-degree.html ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7535847/Most-graduates-not-in-jobs-linked-to-their-degree.html[/url]

Its not even close to comparable given the reasons I pointed out above. Show me some data for a profession that requires a post graduate qualification where people are in post and then leave.
Teaching doesnt relate to my masters or my PhD but thats not the point.

My other half works for the NHS (radiography) and has seen the same mass exodus lately. I get the impression that a lot of it has to do with the budget cuts and follow on 'do a lot more for no extra' mentality of the management teams. A lot of the staff that have left have either gone into private hospitals for a lot more or come back to the NHS as bank staff on a higher hourly rate!

Whatever happened to the positive Drac ?

[i]Show me some data for a profession that requires a post graduate qualification[/i]

Teaching doesn't require a post graduate qualification.

No hard data, but for healthcare, teaching and other public services I'd guess it's a combination of cuts leading to insatisfaction (longer hours, more workload, less job security) and a recovering economy (more job offers).

Certainly round here (Spain) a lot of people are keeping their heads down, weathering the storm (any job's better than no job) - and when the economy finally picks up there will be a lot of movement.

Don't think that Strathclyde was left unchanged either, we just got the changes first before we became one.

Sure, we're down that way from time to time. The consensus is always along the lines of 'We're used to it, it's what he did to us five years ago '.

ghastlyrabbitfat - very much the same here.

Its survey of 700 graduates found that six out of 10 were working in a field or profession not related to the degree they studied.

so maybe teachers are doing better than the average?

But most degrees will not qualify you to work in a profession. A teaching qualification is profession specific. Therefore you would expect all/most qualified teachers to go into teaching.

On the other hand you wouldn't expect all/most history graduates to become professional historians.

So the comparison doesn't work.

Thinking about the original post - I know more people who used to be a paramedic than I do current paramedics.

Next years election is the time to show your dissatifaction with the shower of shit currently ruining the country.

Next years election is the time to show your dissatifaction with the shower of shit currently ruining the country.

And vote for who exactly? Last time I looked there was only one party offering to end the cuts and support the public sector, and they have as much chance of gaining any power as the monster raving loony party.

[i]they have as much chance of gaining any power[/i]

If less than a third of the people who didn't vote in the last general election could be bothered to turn out and vote for a non-mainstream party this time that party would have a majority in the house of commons.

not if people vote for them.

We have lost a 3rd of our clinicians (NHS Podiatry) in the last 2 years, they have either left (the vast majority) or not replaced when retired.
Could have potential turnover of £400 per day if I went private, more so if my wife joined me as we do the same job in the same trust. Just cant afford to take a leap of faith at the moment due to the mortgage etc.
Trouble is I know that private work would be so dull, and I really enjoy the High risk stuff we do all day with the NHS.

Its not even close to comparable given the reasons I pointed out above. Show me some data for a profession that requires a post graduate qualification where people are in post and then leave.
Teaching doesnt relate to my masters or my PhD but thats not the point.

As I said, we had a 82% dropout rate, some went into other companies, a lot went into other industries (we're not badly paid but banking pays more!).

But most degrees will not qualify you to work in a profession. A teaching qualification is profession specific. Therefore you would expect all/most qualified teachers to go into teaching.

On the other hand you wouldn't expect all/most history graduates to become professional historians.

So the comparison doesn't work.

Engineering degree's are pretty specific.

wwaswas see what somewhatslightlydazed wrote. You cannot compare people who enter other jobs from those related to their degree with people leaving a job.

2/10 must try harder

said, we had a 82% dropout rate, some went into other companies, a lot went into other industries (we're not badly paid but banking pays more!).

Much better than wwaswas but were are talking about people leaving teaching, not those going to other schools or private schools. Define "some" and we can talk.

Showing progress well done 6/10

Oh and when you say we I assume we are talking people leaving a company and not the masters course.

[i]2/10 must try harder [/i]

I'm not going to try at all given that level of encouragement 😉

I'd be interested to know what the figures for non-teaching teachers was 20 or 30 years ago - I've always worked with ex-teachers since I was 19 (I'm now 48) - but not interested enough to try and find out, it has to be said.

not if people vote for them.

Obviously yes if people voted for them they'd get in, but I think we all know the chances of that happening. I guess my point was more a complaint about the labour party who are supposed to be the party who defend the public sector and public services, and after Ball's speech yesterday there's not much evidence of that happening any time soon.

Next year the proportion of the UK GDP going into the state coffers will be even less than that of the neo-liberal USA. The cuts will be even more vicious.
I packed up teaching this year after 34 years in the harness. I loved the job but a combination of Gove and a supermarket manager styled headteacher was enough. Around 20% of the staff left the year before me, variously taking early retirement (like me), demotions into another school and just leaving.
Schools like that seem very keen to employ people who are young and not brilliantly well qualified, not the brightest so a little bit insecure in the job, people who have been brought up in the culture of seeing students and their achievements as numbers (to be improved). My students did well (A*s, Oxbridge entry etc) but I couldn't bear that reductionism. Oddly enough I have mates who teach/taught at the local public school and they don't seem to have that approach, they seem to be a lot more student-centred. But then at £30k plus the rest pa they can afford to be.

Other half is is a teacher - plenty of her colleagues are bailing. She's back post-maternity three days a week, but still planning and marking on those other two days, and at the weekend.

Dad was a teacher too (dep head) - he left the UK to teach at international schools where he felt he had "time to teach the kids".

...after Ball's speech yesterday...

One of two good reasons not to vote Labour. The other being Milliband.

Which basically leaves us with the Green Party, or maybe the Libs (although I think the Greens will have more influence).