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Scottish Govt says there's no immediate cause for concern. I'm assuming its the same stuff so why does it seem to be so much more of an issue south of the border?
Apologies if that’s been covered upthread.
why does it seem to be so much more of an issue south of the border?
Because tbe kids of Tory voters in the shires are more expensive in votes lost?
I'm pretty sure this hit the news a few years ago, maybe it was in Hospitals?
So for this to just come out now, smacks of either incompetence or a slow news day, surely?
Scottish Govt says there’s no immediate cause for concern. I’m assuming its the same stuff so why does it seem to be so much more of an issue south of the border?
Maybe their government has so much of its attention on the Ferry fiasco that they can’t spare any for this issue…
The Johnathon Slater interview on the Radio4 Today Programme this morning is essential listening.
so rishi chopped the budget for fixing schools from 100 per year to 50 when the civil service were asking for 200, knowing that it needed approx 400 per year to solve the problem...
cluster.
I still haven't seen the rationale for having known about it for decades why it was announced as an unplanned panic the week before all the kids go back? even at the start of the holidays would have given ample time to at least plan the communications and make it look less like headless chickens are in charge
A good summary.
Gillian Keegan now being interviewed. Her attempts to obfuscate making it very clear that is exactly how it is.
so it seems “spend whatever it takes” means what ever you have left in your budget :/
They've got to be absolutely taken to the cleaners on that. They knew full well the papers would run with the first part and they could then sneak out the second bit. Do they expect the job of 'rebuild the school' to just be a line between 'photocopier paper' and 'loo roll' on the To-do list? The money from where? Fit the work into the half term break?
They know full well that it'll be a few years, maybe a decade or more before any meaningful progress is made in this and I can guarantee that they will use it to beat up Labour, whether they're in power or not.
There are kids who will have had their whole secondary education severely disrupted now with COVID shutdowns and now the schools being uninhabitable. A generation potentially lost due to Tory incompetence.
So yeah, despite Jeremy Hunt’s claims to throw money at the problem now, it’s purely a reactionary measure for an issue that’s been known about for years.
He's going to spend all that's necessary to get it out of the news cycle.
So yeah, despite Jeremy Hunt’s claims to throw money at the problem now, it’s purely a reactionary measure for an issue that’s been known about for years.
IME it's now the standard UK approach to what feels everything, whether it's Govt or work - for example, our place is continually cutting back on 'maintenance' and then chucks money at whatever FU turns up also wasting vast amounts of SME/Senior Management time (which I think it considers is 'free', as these folk are 'salary'...).
IME it’s now the standard UK approach to what feels everything, whether it’s Govt or work
Very much this.
So, we have 22,000 schools in England, Rishi intended to fund the refurbishment of 50 per year. Does that mean the government expected a School to last 440 years between refurbishments?
I’d be naive if I though other bits of key infrastructure were being maintained.
A technical specialist interviewed on radio earlier who's involved in concrete inspections in UK and Europe made a telling comment - as built drawings are, generally, readily available in Europe but in the UK it's very much the exception.
Meaning that we don't know what we've got or where it is.
The same is true of renovation/remediation/replacement works.
Sending a checklist to school governing bodies/trustees with a request to...go have a look, use the checklist for guidance and tell us what you find is a dereliction of duty by the DfE.
Hey look, as Rishi said today, 95% of those 22k schools probably won't be affected!
go have a look, use the checklist for guidance and tell us what you find is a dereliction of duty by the DfE
Who funds "going to have a look" anyway?
Sorry for putting this in two threads...
Head master of the school I can see from the window (and both my kids went to)... essential viewing... from June this year, but this has all been known for years...
If it's choice between a teacher and a building check... what do you do?
For LEA maintained schools then surely the LEA has a responsibility and for Academy chains, what was the deal when they decide to cut the LEA ties? Do the contracts with the DFE only cover supplying "teaching" or are they expected to maintain the buildings as well with the funds they receive? When the school is signed over do they take ownership and responsibility for the bricks and mortar* as well?
*Or papermache and cornflake packets as appears to be the case.
Taking it from the LEA budget still means less money for something else in the school(s).
I’d be naive if I though other bits of key infrastructure were being maintained.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-63664542
Staff at a hospital with some 3,600 roof props have shown the extent of the work in an operating theatre complex which has been completely shut until May.
Four out of seven operating theatres have been shut at the Queen Elizabeth in King's Lynn, where ceilings have to be monitored on a daily basis.
Now appears that they knew there was a problem already, and had been ignoring. The ballgame changed with that
Government ministers....lying..?<makes shocked face>
Well done for giving the present bunch the benefit of the doubt, but the standard operating procedure now is to assume they're not telling the whole truth or just outright lying, until proved otherwise.
whoops! That'll go down well in #10 and #11
I still haven’t seen the rationale for having known about it for decades why it was announced as an unplanned panic the week before all the kids go back?
Transient politicians, knowing that they're running out of time in power. They had no intention of fixing anything - the props are literal as well as metaphorical for this lot; why spend a fortune on schools/public building when you can leave the issues for the next Government to deal with when they inherit the problem. They'll then spend a few years slating the Govt from the other side of the house, claiming that the only party that spends taxpayers money responsibly is them.
It's like putting your house on the market, hoping that the surveyor doesn't notice the roof is shot, and that the money would be better in your pocket.
It wasn't so much that LEA's could find the money from elsewhere but what academies expect to take on. Many have been give the buildings they reside in. Was this with the understanding that the Govt would replace/maintain them, or that they will receive X from the govt and that it covers every aspect of running the school? If the latter it feels a bit like cherry picking, i.e. acadamies claim to provide better outcomes than LEA schools but took on these establishments without doing the due diligence on whether the buildings woukd last the distance.
kelvin, unless a school has decided to appoint a structural engineer or similar any visual inspections have been carried out foc by educators without the relevant technical knowledge or expertise to know what they're looking at.
Whilst you can't grow concrete, you can, theoretically, grow cement, see https://www.renewablematter.eu/articles/article/this-is-how-algae-produced-cement-could-avoid-2-billion-tons-of-co2
unless a school has decided to appoint a structural engineer or similar any visual inspections have been carried out foc by educators without the relevant technical knowledge or expertise to know what they’re looking at.
Indeed. Which is why any "real" checks cost money. Check the video I posted above for the local secondary head here (community school) describing the very real choice between an asbestos survey or a teacher.
Anyway, Ed Balls was right and we should apologise to him as a nation for electing governments that have "sat on their hands" rather than prioritising the updating of our school building stock... which he banged on about passionately and repeatedly while so many voters shrugged and considered it all noise about someone else's future problem.
[ That includes me. I'd personally apologise to him if I ever met him, having not voted for his party while he was involved. ]
Who is she accusing of sitting on their arses? They've been in power for 13 years, who else could have done something in that time - I associated those comments to be directed at her colleagues, am i wrong?
Burning your house down but then doing a good job of calling the fire brigade is hardly praiseworthy?
TBH Keegan's not necessarily wrong. She's been in office for 10 months, which is defininitely long enough that you'd hope to see some action on this before the current panic, but it's also definitely possible that this government is so incompetent and shortsighted that the issue was buried and it's not been on her radar at all.
I mean, the only people she can possibly be criticising is her predecessors in the office, and prime ministers current and past. No matter how they spin it now she was blaming her Tory colleagues, so that's OK. (of course people are trying to make it a "both sides" but, that's only flying now for the most loyal tory supporters for most things, let alone this)
frankconway
Full MemberA technical specialist interviewed on radio earlier who’s involved in concrete inspections in UK and Europe made a telling comment – as built drawings are, generally, readily available in Europe but in the UK it’s very much the exception.
Meaning that we don’t know what we’ve got or where it is.
This stuck out for me too. A comment from the Scottish government was more or less "we know this is a problem in some schools and hospitals and we're checking all the schools and hospitals". Literally having to send people out to have a look. That's insane... It's not like these are small components, or something that got put up by a sub-sub-subcontractor 20 years into the life of the buildings.
but it’s also definitely possible that this government is so incompetent and shortsighted that the issue was buried and it’s not been on her radar at all
When all this came to light and should have been actioned, the education Secretary was…
‘Sir’ Gavin Williamson
A man so staggeringly incompetent he shines like a beacon of ineptitude even in the company of these ****-wits
Based on their current track record, there's some serious scurrying about buying up shares and future directorships in construction companies, prior to the gov finding 50billion spare in the Downing St party kitty that will be released. Oh and firms that have been recently incorporated in some far off tropical paradise, that can obtain said beams from China which will be discovered to be made of Playdoh.
A technical specialist interviewed on radio earlier who’s involved in concrete inspections in UK and Europe made a telling comment – as built drawings are, generally, readily available in Europe but in the UK it’s very much the exception.
Meaning that we don’t know what we’ve got or where it is.
The trouble with as-builts, is you've got to get construction to buy in to creating them (or following the drawings in the first place).
@Northwind I think it only came to light at our place (in England) as an actual problem rather than abstract ‘we’ve got to have all the RAAC replaced by 2030’ when they were doing some fairly serious conversion work in one of the wings.
Don't forget that there was a LOT of money available to fix the crumbling Houses of Parliament. Just none for the schools. At least, not the schools the poor people go to.
There's probably a few quid down the back of the sofa for Eton and Harrow.
I mean, the only people she can possibly be criticising is her predecessors in the office, and prime ministers current and past. No matter how they spin it now she was blaming her Tory colleagues, so that’s OK. (of course people are trying to make it a “both sides” but, that’s only flying now for the most loyal tory supporters for most things, let alone this)
Seems that she may not be blaming her colleagues who knew about this years ago and had the power therefore to take action or force action years ago. But didn't, and even cut what was requested.
Oh no, it's not their fault after all. It's the LEA's and multi-academy trusts who she thinks have been sat on their arses.
OST possible the post interview comments was to draw attention from this classic In The Thick Of It quote, except that would require self awareness and quick (or any) thinking,
https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1698695718884553076?s=12
tinas - every contract I've been involved in had the timely provision of complete and compliant as builts tied to retentions.
A well managed contract would have site agent/clerk of works/PM on the job, staying close.
That doesn't necessarily guarantee contract/spec compliance.
Don't know how construction jobs were managed in 50s/60s/70s but would be surprised if there wasn't a high degree of compliance with the contract, including spec.
From Twitter
A reliable source has informed us that in early February, two months after the risk level was raised to high, Education Secretary Gillian Keegan remarked, ‘We just need to keep the lid on this for two years and then it’s someone else’s problem
Source TBC
so her "sitting on their arse" comment was just plain projection/accuse others of what you're guilty of! :/
FFS, I thought my son's school had dodged this, they spotted the problem before the summer break and got the work done before term started.
But DfE won't say the work is satisfactory and as I'm putting him to bed getting excited for the start of year 2, the email arrives saying it's shut. Letter arrives to school sometime today, email from school at 7pm.
Absolute truster****.
Recap
I was initially sympathetic on the basis of 'new info comes to light, changes what they need to do'
Then I lost sympathy because turns out much of this was known and not acted on so the 'new info' was predictable even if they can still claim it only actually came to light in the summer.
Then I had some sympathy because no matter what has happened in the past, they are where they are and now need to deal with it and at least she/they do seem to be getting off their arses and doing something. Pointing the blame elsewhere at the same time, and not doing enough wrt funding and whatever, absolutely, but at least doing something.
But the next crisis being lurched towards seems to be that they are now being over-cautious (maybe not a bad position to take against a risk of a ceiling falling on a classroom of kids). Consequently elsewhere in the Government estate, including housing, local authority buildings, the military estate, etc., there are now fears that if the same caution is applied then there will be a mass quarantining of buildings.
Another day of claim and counterclaim, PMQ's should be fun. This is becoming like one of those quiz shows where you can decide to play or pass. Of course Starmer wants to win but there must be days where the idea of letting the tories continue for a bit longer until we really reach only way is upsville is very enticing.
The problem is this is what happens when you delegate responsibility to thousands of separate parties. The DOE isnt responsible for the schools as it is the Acadamy Trust and Local Authorities that are, but how can yu trust them to look after the school properly. You cant and then it is the DOE who get it in the neck when things go wrong.
This kind of story just gets played out time and time again. Central government has no power or control these independent organisations. The Minister of Health states that doctors are going to work weekends. Thousands of doctors surgeries (that are private companies) across the country say no we are not. The only tool the government has to persuade them is to pay them more. But then lots of doctors have a nice salary and do want to work weekends. Years later Department of Health then gets a kicking as they failed on their promise to have surgeries open on the weekend.
The government made all these institutions independent so they could not be blamed and can claim it is not their responsibility, but on the counterside it means they can't get them to do what they politically want them to do.
List of schools has finally been published, can't help but notice just how many of them are in Essex, for some reason. And quite a few of those in what will be Tory marginals.
Would have been quite a temptation to do nothing until after the next election. 🙂
Tory voters shocked in collapsing schools shocker after years of lack of investment and underfunding.
I also hear Birmingham City Council is now technically bankrupt.
But yes let's stop the squirrels... Sorry. Boats.
There's something to be said about 'you deserve the government you vote for'.