[Closed] Coffee afficionados

Henry the Green Engine really isn't enjoying his new role, is he?

LOLs Flashheart takes Perchy's crown for the day.

Silly, that's an iron lung.

If the Italians like the Startbuck coffee then the independent roaster/cafe will suffer.

My Italian customers big up their coffee snobbery whenever I visit for work. Visited a company a few years ago. Big meeting, 15 top brass and engineers around the table, exchanged pleasantries before I was whisked off for an espresso with the engineering team, to the coffee room. I was expecting big things from this espresso.

Enter the 'coffee room' and there's a bunch of guys crowded around a Krupps machine!! I **** you not. It tasted like watered down dirt.

Given there's a roaster in the room, I'd guess they are providing something slightly different to normal Starbucks blend.

However there's still a market for liquid desserts made with coffee which is what Starbucks is really good at.

Coaltown coffee is almost ready to open their roastery in Ammanford. The smell as I drive past is divine.

https://www.coaltowncoffee.co.uk

Italians are 'particular' about their coffee (e.g. cappuccinos are only to be drunk in the morning), but there's nothing special about it in my opinion

Offices / factories often have vending machine coffee makers which make a good coffee but then the workers just fill it with sugar.

I used to work opposite the Nestle Plant in Hatton / Tutbury. The smell was not divine, more like burning coffee quality street's.

Given there’s a roaster in the room, I’d guess they are providing something slightly different to normal Starbucks blend.

Zero Degrees have a brewery and a pizza oven in their restaurants. The pizza isn't bad, the beer wasn't anything to write home about last time I went.

Starbucks don't sell coffee, they sell Starbucks cups that happen to have coffee in the world it could be the best coffee in the world or the woywoyrst but it would be irrelevant. Ultimately the younger generation of Italians are just as much brand slaves as the rest of the world so it's no real surprise, that said you'll not see an Italian in there because of all the tourists.

Given there’s a roaster in the room, I’d guess they are providing something slightly different to normal Starbucks blend.

Yup, fancy furniture. I'll be amazed if its used for roasting.

Enter the ‘coffee room’ and there’s a bunch of guys crowded around a Krupps machine!! I **** you not. It tasted like watered down dirt.

😀 LOL!

https://www.theonion.com/new-starbucks-opens-in-rest-room-of-existing-starbucks-1819564800

e.g. cappuccinos are only to be drunk in the morning

I thought that was more a Roman thing than an Italian thing?

Italians are ‘particular’ about their coffee (e.g. cappuccinos are only to be drunk in the morning), but there’s nothing special about it in my opinion

Coffee and lots of hot milk is a European breakfast dish. Cafe au lait in France, caffe latte in Italy, something else in Spain. (In Germany and other northern countries it's cheese and meat of course.) The rest of the day, it's black coffee. We have no real coffee tradition so we swill buckets of hot milk and coffee all day.

What we have to remember is that thirty years ago a cup of coffee in a cafe in Britain was a spoonful of instant in a mug filled with water from the kettle and a splash of milk. In a restaurant you might get filter coffee but many years ago I worked in a restaurant where we filled "kona" jugs with instant coffee for the diners. We had no pride. Now it's all hipster stuff and when we go to France or Italy we think, hey, what's the big deal. We got there in the end*, thanks to the Americans.

* apart from the buckets of hot milk shake.

Instant coffee was invented by the US government to supply the GI's coming over here in WWII for fear of them not getting a good coffee. Being the UK and thinking that everything the US does is sexy cool we adopted it wholesale.

The fact that there was already a large community of Italians already in the UK that made good coffee could never compete with a new hi tech US import.

The fact that there was already a large community of Italians already in the UK that made good coffee could never compete with a new hi tech US import.

The Italians drank espresso, the Americans drank filter. Hence the Italians invented the "Americano" to serve the American soldiers. Let's not pretend that coffee is some sort of religion.

Besides we're a nation of tea drinkers, if someone wanted coffee then it had to be as easy to make as tea, which is probably the real reason we went with instant! I don't mind making the tea in the office, but if someone asks for coffee they're getting instant (unless I'm making coffee and offered them coffee in which case it's just a bigger cafetiere).

That sounds like urban myth to me Jeff... it was a French invention from the late 19th century for starters.

Any popularisation during the war is much much more likely to be down to availability than it being high tech. It was easier and cheaper to ship, meaning more landed usable product per boat whilst shipping was a bit irregular. People could get hold of it, developed a taste for it and it stuck.

But by the by, brands are successful because of the branding, drinking Starbucks coffee is popular because it's popular, nothing to do wyith the quality or otherwise of the product. It's why Nescafe is seen as a premium over real coffee in most of the places in the world which grow good coffee.

The brands are popular because they are consistently better than most of the rubbish cafes you get in most places.  Sure there are some artisan fancy places now, but ten or fifteen years ago there weren't.  When I came to Cardiff in the mid 90s there were a few coffee shops, their coffee was rubbish and the cakes crap.  And they closed at 5.30 so if you wanted to shop then chill you had nowhere to go.  I went to America in 97 and there were places (one of which was probably Starbucks) selling delicious caramelly sweet things and even the normal coffee was far better.  A similar place popped up in Manchester in 98 and we'd walk across town in our lunch break to drink coffee their after our sarnies.

So they might not be the finest gourmet coffee but they are a damn sight better than what we had.  They're also some of the best quickie sandwiches and cakes in a typical city centre.  And they have something for everyone - sweet stuff for the kids, tea for your gran too.  And you can sit in comfort as long as you like.

And let's face it, large sweet goodies are always going to be more popular than the rarified nuances of fine filter coffee.

When I came to Cardiff in the mid 90s there were a few coffee shops, their coffee was rubbish and the cakes crap.

I remember being very disappointed by Welsh cakes too.

The brands are popular because they are consistently better than most of the rubbish cafes you get in most places. Sure there are some artisan fancy places now, but ten or fifteen years ago there weren’t.

The brands were the only places offering ground coffee bean coffee*, on the high street and at railway stations etc. It all came from that whole Seattle coffee fashion from the states and started some time in the 90s. Starbucks was a cult hipster thing then! Obviously I'm talking about Britain - the "continent" had been drinking coffee bean coffee all the time.

* Actually, as mentioned there were the Italians. I worked in an italian ice-cream and coffee place as my first holiday job. They had the Gaggia machines and the glasses in a metal frame. The odd thing was that it was called "espresso" when it was actually a frothy steamed milk coffee. If you wanted it black you ordered a black coffee and everybody assumed you were working off a hangover. They also served a knickerbocker glory - an ice cream confection. And no hipsters, just hippies - happy days.

The brands were the only places offering ground coffee bean coffee*, on the high street

Don't think so.  The sound of grinding beans has always been there that I can remember.  It's just that they were cheap nasty beans and the staff burned them because they didn't know better.

That reminds me, I'm low on beans.

What beans for....  oh never mind.

Neither the Italians or strarbucks are big on speciality coffee* though so geeks/hipsters/engaged consumers are not going to give a toss.

*speciality as in high grade single origin robusta with enough points to be SCA grade not over roasted com.

italians are very last century about coffee, their machines are great though.

The favoured coffee shops in upstate NY are Tim Horton's; average coffee, ginormous cakes etc comprising 95% sugar and the rest being some chemical flavouring.

Great - if that's your thing; it isn't mine.

Starbucks has failed in Australia (one of the largest coffee markets in the world), and now pretty much subsists on selling to tourists here.

It failed because Australia already had a well developed coffee/cafe culture, which was much more sophisticated (in the way it met the needs of the market) that Starbuck's "cookie-cutter" business model.

The starbucks in Milan will just be selling coffee to American tourists (and probably Brits) who want a caramel frappacino or some such nonsense.  That's no bad thing - it keeps them out of the decent independents, and I guess it's a legitimate business model.

The starbucks in Milan will just be selling coffee to American tourists (and probably Brits)

I bet plenty of Italians will go there. They seem to like ice cream pretty well, I expect they'll enjoy a frappucino as much as anyone else.

I grow up in a small market town there was a deli that sold loads of ground fresh coffee, being near Newcastle it was probably Pumphreys. All the local cafes except for the really shit ones sold filtered coffee as did the restaurants.

Nobody spotted my huge error Arabica not Robusta!

though not a fan of Italian coffee there is a lot to be said for a well pulled shot bought at a station/street corner in Italy. It’s far more palatable than anything from Starbucks.

A 90 cent espresso from an Italian service station, served in a tiny plastic cup, is a thing of beauty.

From my recent week in Rome, I discovered that the typical street-corner espresso seems generally to be pretty smooth and drinkable, but not especially nuanced.  I find Starbucks espresso more astringent and hence harder to drink on its own but also more interesting.  Their coffee goes much better with lots of whole milk as the darkness is mellowed out by the creaminess and together they make a good drink.  Lattes with other espressos aren't as good.

However the biggest issue will probably be with the fact that the Italians seem to simply down their espresso inside a minute then go.  I think part of the reason Starbucks does well here is because it's a replacement for traditional tea rooms where people sit and natter for ages.

Agreed Molgrips - Starbucks works well with milk, not so well without. I get the impression that coffee is a drug to Italians, not a drink. Any Italians on here?

Nobody spotted my huge error Arabica not Robusta!

I just assumed 100% robusta was this week's hipster coffee of choice. Probably served in one of those mini tiptree jam jars you get at breakfast in hotels rather than a cup.

Nothing wrong with robusta in an espresso, quite the opposite in fact - there's something wrong with espresso with none - I'm not sure I'd want to drink a 100% robusta though.

Batfink I've never seen a Starbucks in WA

We have so many roasters and trendy little shops. Regular batrista battles for the best macchiato or espresso. Shops that sell bad coffee don't last.

"Nobody spotted my huge error Arabica not Robusta!"

I did, just confirmed that you were talking obblocks 🙂

Starbucks works well with milk

Make sure you specify whole milk though, as the default is semi-skimmed unlike I think Costa and Nero where whole is the default.  And apparently in Switzerland they default to whole but in Germany they use semi.  However in both countries Starbucks use fresh milk whereas most places use UHT.

Besides we’re a nation of tea drinkers]/quote]

A close run thing, but coffee was popularised before tea in England:

Whilst the custom of drinking tea dates back to the third millennium BC in China and was popularised in England during the 1660s by King Charles II and his wife the Portuguese Infanta Catherine de Braganza, it was not until the mid 19th century that the concept of ‘afternoon tea’ first appeared.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Afternoon-Tea/

1651: The first coffee house opened in England. Coffee houses multiplied and become such popular forums for discussion that they were dubbed "penny universities" (one penny was the price of a cup of coffee)

http://www.britishcoffeeassociation.org/about_coffee/history_of_coffee/

 

Batfink I’ve never seen a Starbucks in WA

WA = Western Australia, not Washington State?

In Seattle (and surrounding area) you can't move for fear of falling over a Starbucks. Saying that, the reserve roastery just outside downtown is very similar to the Milan store above and pretty good.

1651: The first coffee house opened in England.

Yeah but it'll have been instant muck served without shame, not artisan roasted civet poos served by a simultaneously scowling and smiling, bearded bloke in a lumberjack shirt and jeans with bracers which is frankly the minimum standard for any coffee. And i bet not one of the customers waxed lyrical about their aeropress being the best thing since Marie Antoinette's knickers.

the reserve roastery just outside downtown is very similar to the Milan store above and pretty good

That place is hideous, far too much space.

Yeah but it’ll have been instant muck served without shame, not artisan roasted civet poos served by a simultaneously scowling and smiling, bearded bloke in a lumberjack shirt and jeans with bracers which is frankly the minimum standard for any coffee. And i bet not one of the customers waxed lyrical about their aeropress being the best thing since Marie Antoinette’s knickers.

It also misses the point that it's almost 400 years ago, in 1651 you could pop to your local coffee shop in London Town and catch typhoid on the way back.

People are far too quick to dismiss British food and drink, what's wrong with tea, beer, cheeses, cakes, black pudding?

Not everything has to be foreign and endorsed by the population of Shoreditch.

I did, just confirmed that you were talking obblocks

not really, the “hipster” coffee shops in the UK essentially only use speciality grade coffee as defined by the SCA. ie high grade single origin beans from the likes of Vollers, Nordic Approach or Mercanta lightly roasted and not served with syrups or gallons of milk.

this whole thread is about the differences between first, second and third wave coffee (mainly English, Italian, American and antipodean) just that some of the posters don't know it.

and as for ‘Civet poo’ no self respecting engaged coffee consumer would spend ££££’s on that crap. a Panama Geisha on the other hand...

not served with syrups or gallons of milk

So if you go into one of these places and ask for lots of milk, you get refused?

So if you go into one of these places and ask for lots of milk, you get refused?

You'd likely walk out without your coffee when they seemingly tried to charge for the whole cow, go to Starbucks and get a coffee you enjoyed without the side order of derision and judgment, so the result is the same.

So if you go into one of these places and ask for lots of milk, you get refused?

depends on the location, if there are enough local customers to sustain only the coffee they wish to sell then yes, but if the location is the kind of place that only has a greasy spoon or nero’s as the other option then they usually end up having to offer something close to the local competition as thats what customers expect. they just dont like change. or as my grandfather would say about people who never try anything “afraid they might like it"

the side order of derision and judgment

But without that how do you know you're better than everyone else?

But without that how do you know you’re better than everyone else?

You don't need to know you're better than everyone else. Everyone else needs to know you're better than them. It's an important but subtle difference, like packing your shopping into fortnum's bags even though you bought it at aldi.

Ah - so go and drink the black coffee or espresso, and make sure everyone knows it - whilst secretly wishing for a Starbucks Caramel Macchiato.. right 🙂

Exactly. Suffer for your art, if you're enjoying it you're doing it wrong.

the side order of derision and judgment

thats what you get with retail/foodservice in varying degrees, doesn't matter what you are buying be it coffee or a £3k mountain bike.

thats what you get with retail/foodservice

No no, i go to places i can't afford to shop but feign a disinterested underwhelmed air with a soupçon of restrained condescension so in return I'm treated to obsequiousness and groveling.

For actual buying things i just use the cheapest place online like everyone else, and of all the things the internet will judge me for it won't be me grocery shopping.

That place is hideous, far too much space.

It's America. Bigger is better.

No no, i go to places i can’t afford to shop but feign a disinterested underwhelmed air with a soupçon of restrained condescension so in return I’m treated to obsequiousness and groveling.

with a frisson of excitement no doubt followed by an overwhelming sense of guilt that transcends into anger at ones own yielding to societies most ugly mores.

should have stayed in bed and had a cry/****.

Batfink I’ve never seen a Starbucks in WA

We have so many roasters and trendy little shops. Regular batrista battles for the best macchiato or espresso. Shops that sell bad coffee don’t last.

Yep, I think in central Sydney there are 3 Starbucks?  (circular quay, darling harbour and hyde park). Within a 5 minute walk of my flat there's perhaps 50 independent places.  That was my point, Starbucks made no effort to adjust their business model to suit the Australian, established coffee market - and so have largely failed.  The only people that go to the Starbucks in Sydney are tourists.  As I said, thats a legitimate business model I suppose - like greek tavernas selling fish and chips and watney's red barrel to the brits.