Coed y Brenin (NRW job cuts)

Looks like its happening at Nant y arian as well, trails will still be supported but no centre, beyond toilet and car park

Any word on what proportion of the £13m and 265 jobs is saved by the 3 visitor centres?

I have to say that I don’t think that either the Nant Yr Arian or the Coed Y Brenin visitor centre are particularly good.

Any word on what proportion of the £13m and 265 jobs is saved by the 3 visitor centres?

Good question! You'd hope they weren't employing nearly three hundred people in the three VC's!

On a slight tangent, and huge thread hijack...

Could anyone recommend somewhere to stay near the centre of Dolgellau for 3-4 bikers (with bikes)? We are planning a trip in October, so doing our best to help the CyB economy.

I would have thought the cafe would be a profit centre, rather than a cost. If they aren’t then I would be looking to make changes to improve the offer to visitors to make it profitable

Remember when the cafe at CyB was leased out and people made a living out of it.

really sad that NRW have stacked failure on failure.

coummity group set up FB

I would have thought the cafe would be a profit centre, rather than a cost. If they aren’t then I would be looking to make changes to improve the offer to visitors to make it profitable

You would hope that was the rationale for building in the first place, based on forest usage at the time, rather than forecast usage.

Just shows how long it is since I went to CyB there wasnt even a visitors centre there when I last went, just a car park.

Now I less than 1hr away I was hoping to go more often. Will the trails still be maintained?

NRW are a disgrace. Just like the Welsh government.

I have to say that I don’t think that either the Nant Yr Arian or the Coed Y Brenin visitor centre are particularly good.

Before the genius welsh government closed down Wales in covid and at times without any good reason as they went insane with that particular power trip, Coed y brenin was extremely busy.

To make a mess of that place to such an extent it has to close takes some doing.

I have to say that I don’t think that either the Nant Yr Arian or the Coed Y Brenin visitor centre are particularly good.

Fair comment, but the solution has to be to make them better or lease them to someone who can, not just get rid of them.  Even a sub-optimal visitor centre is better than none at all.

Even a sub-optimal visitor centre is better than none at all.

Not sure why CyB needs a visitors centre? Its some where you go to ride a bike/walk/run etc.

I bike wash and showers would be useful.

Dolgellau is only 20 mins away.

You're right, it doesn't "need" one, but it makes the experience a bit more pleasant if you've travelled any distance. I've ridden at CyB before with my non cycling wife in tow and she's been able to have a walk and and a coffee whilst I ride. It would have been a much harder sell without the facilities! I see plenty of other family groups there in the same situation.

Same at Nant yr Arian. I have met my son there for a ride and it's great to have somewhere for a brew and cake after before we depart in different directions. Mtbing can be a minimalist, hair shirt experience, but it doesn't have to be.

Sad, but I'm with @FunkyDunc......not sure what purpose the visitor centre serves? Happy to pay to park etc, even to ride if it helped support trail maintenance. Just not really sure what's to be gained from a visitors centre? Same with other trail centres.

Any word on what proportion of the £13m and 265 jobs is saved by the 3 visitor centres?

Small percentage, lots of people in other areas of NRW having having their roles removed from the structure in these proposals. Some places where two teams will be merged into one, with the team members having to interview against each other for the remaining jobs. Not going pleasant.

NRW are a disgrace. Just like the Welsh government.

Not that I'm defending NRW, I know their failings better than most, but a majority of their funding comes from Welsh Government, and NRW doesn't get enough funding to do what the public expects. Lots of WG funding comes from UK government.

To those asking about the point of a visitor centre; I work with disabled riders, and having somewhere with appropriate toilets, change / washing facilities, ability to get food and drink, park and have appropriate trails is depressingly difficult to find. CyB isn't perfect and I'd agree there's plenty of opportunity to improve the offer, but certainly for the people I work with it would be a huge loss.

I think there's a perception amongst some on here that CyB should revolve around the needs of hardcore mountain bikers, riding solo or with like minded mates.  This is understandable to a degree given the nature of this forum, but CyB is also used by families with young kids, older people or others with reduced mobility who want to go for a walk or as @riklegge points out above, the disabled.  Whilst you gnarly shredders might be happy to piss in the woods and survive on protein bars from your pockets not everyone else is!

NyA has a wide range of visitors. There are walking, running and horse riding trails too as well as the very popular red kite feeding. Not just mountain bikers. It's quite a nice visitor centre and there isn't much else nearby so it should be possible to make some money there. Shame to lose it.

Interestingly the FoD visitor centre is always busy. Car park full and all cafe table occupied. I'd say its not as nice a visitor centre but maybe has better facilities. Is it more down to location, not quite so middle of nowhere?

Personally, a visitors centre is essential if there are no facilities near by. I.e. a loo as a minimum, and it's an added bonus if there is a cafe - CYB and Llandegla are the only main MTB centres I've been to but we always make sure we have something to eat there. Quick brew before lap two. Also it's great for those with families too.  It's such a shame as these places are fantastic.

Cyb one is losing £350k a year.

How the heck I don't know.

Near the bottom here:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/coed-y-brenin-and-bwlch-nant-yr-arian-at-risk/page/2/

Here's the Singletrack article about it (from me!):

https://singletrackmag.com/2024/08/is-nrw-about-to-close-coed-y-brenin/

Not sure why CyB needs a visitors centre?

At the weekend in the summer, its swarming with families all either walking or tottering about on bikes having a great day out, it's great to see, and the visitor centre is pretty much central to that offer. Kids can get fed and/or take shelter if the rain starts, there's a great play area, the view is nice, and there's a wee shop to poke about it.

I think the plan is to put the cafes out to tender, which is better IMO as they are commercially viable and there's no public service remit. I believe there are some building problems at CyB which account for a lot of costs.

It would be worth having a North Wales development manager, to my mind. Employed by NRW to encourage greater/wider use of the Forest e.g. promoting Woodland craft courses, Nature watching, MTB skills, community groups etc. Doesn't have to be profitable. The key is just getting people to visit.

@andrewreay Plas Isa in Dolgellau is very good. B+B

Plas Isa in Dolgellau is very good. B+B

Perfect. Thanks

CyB should revolve around the needs of hardcore mountain bikers, riding solo or with like minded mates.

Made me laugh 🙂

I ain't never seen me no hardcore mountain bikers at CYB...or at least I didn't recognise them as such. It's great for families, stress free bimbles and chilling.

think the plan is to put the cafes out to tender, which is better IMO as they are commercially viable and there’s no public service remit. I believe there are some building problems

So basically they're trying to go back to exactly what it was when it was Red Bull etc and Sian and Daffyd's little cafe across the road. Before they threw them out and said "mine, mine all mine. Get out"

***S

PS. Apologies. I can't recall their actual names

Just an observation:

I've ridden and hiked at MANY different "trails centres" in US and Canada.

There, they'll clear enough space for car parking and install a vault toilet and map/notice board. Occasionally, there'll be a picnic table. And that's it.

No cafe, changing rooms, shop or spares/repairs.

You'll see plenty of families out riding or hiking or whatever.

So what makes UK riders/families NEED a visitor centre?

<Shrug>

I don't know for sure - i'm making an educated guess about the cafe tender (saves on staff, guaranteed income each year). There seems to be a lot of speculation about a private company coming in to 'take over' and buy the CyB visitor centre, then presumably charge for trail access, or be compelled to offer it (public access) as part of a deal. Whichever, it seems obvious NRW are looking to balance their budget.

CYB hasn’t been interested in mountain bike riders as we would recognise them for years. It’s all about family days out in the woods. A half decent offering in the cafe should make slot of money

then presumably charge for trail access

I can't see that flying. With so many better, free to ride trail centres around these days. CyB was great in it's day, but things have moved on. If I'm paying to ride, I want an uplift so BPW, Antur Stiniog etc. I don't mind paying for parking or spending in the cafe (whilst it's there) but not for trail use when there are plenty of better free options available

It comes down to the same thing every time... Trail centres make money for everyone but the people who build and run the trail centres.

And on top of that, the people who benefit most from them (and the councils that benefit most from that) are so completely used to having a goose that lays golden eggs, that nobody ever thinks to feed it. It's an outrage if it ever lays less eggs of course but even then nobody believes they'll have to do without it.

I honestly wonder sometimes if what we need might be a disaster. Imagine a huge winter storm pours down the tweed valley and blows all of of glentress and innerleithen and the golfy flat. Nightmare for us and a nightmare for the local economy but maybe at least it'd make people pay attention for once as all those visitors vanish overnight.

On-site services ought to be a way to reverse the flow there a bit and take advantage of that semi-captive market. Who doesn't like a cake after a ride? And bike hire and repair and emergency parts are all really obvious. But it seems like we get it wrong as often as we get it right. There's definitely that common british desire for a "flagship building", and again the funding model is messed up and there's millions available for a vanity project and 50p available for trails. (and no benefit to turning down the millions, it just goes elsewhere) Would CYB be better served with a couple of basic buildings, a really visible accessible shop and cafe that's cheaper to run but also drives business into it better? Yeah probably.

(we're off to the forest of dean next week and every time I go there I'm just reminded how brilliant a visitor's centre can be when it's done right. I mean, it's barely fit for purpose, the kitchen's overflowing, there's barely enough benches, on a wet day there's nothing like enough roof space but even then it's a hubbub. And on a nice day, sitting outside shovelling food down your face before one last run, while kids ride around on balance bikes and everyone from downhillers to first timers rubs shoulders, it's absolutely brilliant)

I work with disabled riders, and having somewhere with appropriate toilets, change / washing facilities, ability to get food and drink, park and have approp

@riklegge is Delamere on your list as they have all of the above and recently put in 6 short sections of blue. Bike hire available from the shop. Happy to show you around if you’re not familiar with it.

I've been going to CyB on and off for about 30 years. The new visitor centre has always felt like a Grand Designs style over ambitious, over budget, pushy committee member's power trip.

But there again I'm happy with a car park, a cold water tap and a tree to have a slash behind.

Hi @shinton

Yes, Delamere is an option, I grew up fairly nearby and know it reasonably well. Thanks for the offer though!

There are a handful of suitable trail centres around, it's just frustrating when one of the (limited) options seems to be closing.

Wasn't it European money which funded most of the early Welsh trail centres?

I seem to remember there being plenty of money for initial funding of such projects but the EU never (?) provided funds for on-going maintenance. The expectation was that any ongoing costs would be picked up "locally"

That’s nearly always the case and an easy trap to fall into. My only criticism of modern bike parks is the vast amount of maintenance required . However, they are commercially run (ok, probably not making a fortune) and massive jumps are popular! CyB is public property, so it can be more experimental. I’m just of the opinion its better to expand out of a crisis, than contract. The centres represent a small cost relative to NRW’s overall expenditure. So really if more revenue options were encouraged, a flat £5 visit fee per person or a national recreation fund from the NHS budget are tried, then it may stay open.

There’s a great campsite with rooms too just half a mile from the visitor centre

https://caegwynfarm.co.uk/

Before the genius welsh government closed down Wales in covid and at times without any good reason as they went insane with that particular power trip, Coed y brenin was extremely busy.

To make a mess of that place to such an extent it has to close takes some doing.

It's not just NRW.  I worked for a major  multinational and a reverse take over turned a business that was profitable each year for 25 years and grew from £5m to £50m turnover and 6x the staff, into a big loss maker in under 2 years.

The common factors are

- incompetence

-arrogance

- not giving a shit, especially about customers

NRW are a disgrace.

Easy to say… and I don’t want to be an apologist for NRW… but it can’t increase revenue unless it is given more core funding, it can’t carry cash over from one year to the next, it can’t borrow money, it can’t increase charges for the activities that are chargeable (like permits) and the price of timber is volatile and outside its control.  So… given flat funding and inflationary pressures something has to give.  The whole process will be painful form many NRW staff.  I guess there are a few on this forum.

It’s a real shame that NRW will withdraw from much of the visitor centre activity.  People comment that they should turn a profit… but most catering or visitor centre businesses don’t make loads of cash and if they do turn a profit, they do so because they are independent and flexible in how they operate and they often pay minimum wages to catering assistants type roles.  A public sector organisation can’t really work that way.  When it had the cash  NRW could subsidise the centres because they add value to its activities and sites.  But NRW is skint so has to retreat somewhat and prioritise the activities it is legally bound to carry out.

I hope that someone will take over and make a go of the visitor centres.  Whilst I generally keep away from honey pots,  I really like CyB and it would be great to see it thrive.

It seems at the heart of this, is the myopic British view that each individual thing has to make money (or at least not lose it) in its own right  - and never consider the cost as part of a 'bigger picture' - like how it brings in money, in terms of accomodation, eating etc   into what otherwise is a dead area.

It's the same with public transport -  why we have  shit infrastructure and a broken public transport system.

And same with health - both physical and mental - its seen as nothing but a abhorent cost, rather than something that makes the population better and therefore the wider economy more productive.

Same with education.

Etc etc etc.

It's why the economy is ****ed and the GDP per capita is no higher now than 16 years ago.

It seems at the heart of this, is the myopic British view that each individual thing has to make money (or at least not lose it) in its own right

Agreed. The cost of everything and value of nothing cliche applies.  That is kind of the problem NRW is confronting. On a UK or even Wales level It’s core revenue funding is a pittance. It needs more

I think possibly it would be better for a private enterprise to mayby run the centre and trails - simplify the buildings and invest in the trails.

Coed Y Brenin and Nant yr Arian are so much more than just MTB centres, they were purposely developed that way.  NYA has the Red Kite breeding/feeding/protection scheme that has been a roaring success and CYB has morphed into an Events Hub and Community space.  A lot of this was possible due to EU funding, both for the setup costs and the expansion in recent years.  Both the Pump Track at NYA and the new bike shop and open space above only happened thanks to EU Objective 1 and 2 funding.  These were promised to be matched by Johnson and Co upon us leaving but it never happened, hence the big shortfalls now occurring.

I don't have any answers about how both centres can survive in their current guises but whatever happens they need to continue in some capacity that supports the local economies, whether that's on a monetary level or just as places for exercise and relaxation.  Neither have the capacity to become something like the centre at FOD though, they just don't have the population density around them to make it work.  Pedalabikeaway really does thrive on locals using it regularly through the week and on the late evenings they do, the weekend traffic is more of a bonus (although a stressful one!).  If they expanded to cater for the weekend footfall comfortably then they would end up facing the high running costs that NYA and CYB have too.  FOD is able to sustain a massive offering running from former railway loops to uplifted DH tracks, multiple walking trails and even a Heritage Railway due to it's location.  North Wales just doesn't have all of that in such a small area, it's all spread out separated by a patchwork road network.  The comments above about 'Knowing the phe price of everything but the value of nothing' really does ring true in the current situation NRW find themselves in.

reluctantjumper
Full Member

The comments above about ‘Knowing the phe price of everything but the value of nothing’ really does ring true in the current situation NRW find themselves in.

That's really the problem isn't it, NRW have to pay the price of everything and get back so little of the value, and there's no real process or structure to make that work. Public organisations should be able to work with that but they need to be funded and resourced and directed properly for it to happen.

Seems to be confusion between visitor centre and cafe.
The visitor centre sells maps, tat and takes your money when the carpark machine is broken, I wont miss these.
The cafes offer refreshments, might miss these but at the moment the cafes at these sites are a bit pants so hope this brings a better place to spend money after a ride.

So what makes UK riders/families NEED a visitor centre?

That’s a trick question, right?
Your <shrug> shows your complete disregard and indifference to what most ordinary people actually want on a day out, especially families. America covers a vast area, by comparison to the U.K., so it’s hopelessly unrealistic to expect more than a car parking area, and maybe a water source. The U.K. generally speaking, has a lot more people close to places such as these, so providing facilities for a family day out, with the trails available for kids to enjoy as well as those for more experienced riders, would seem to be a no brainer.

However, there are plenty of people in local and national governments, and on here, it seems, who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. <shrug>

CYB cafe is built already and the design is fantastic, with beautiful views, food was also excellent. What is the rent to the cafe for it to lose that much, staff costs, food costs. It should be a draw for miles around, I’d stop there for a coffee if I was driving that way before I’d go into Dolgellau. Is there free 1/2 hour parking for this? That place should be profitable.

CYB cafe is built already and the design is fantastic, with beautiful views, food was also excellent. What is the rent to the cafe for it to lose that much, staff costs, food costs. It should be a draw for miles around, I’d stop there for a coffee if I was driving that way before I’d go into Dolgellau. Is there free 1/2 hour parking for this? That place should be profitable.

It could be profitable I’m sure.  But as far as I understand, margins on cafes aren’t huge when run unencumbered by a large corporate entity… so when you add in the extra costs that are baked into an organisation like NRW I suspect it may be subsidised rather than profitable at the moment.

I know other orgs who manage sites (NT, Welsh Water, etc) do run cafes.  I wonder if they are at least self funding?

I’m not making excuses for NRW and I am gutted for the people whose posts are under threat…  But NRW is complex and very diverse.  That is kind of adds costs to any single activity. Most organisations that run cafes and visitor centres are not also charged with issuing marine licences for off shore wind farms, undertaking enforcement for illegal dumping of hazardous waste, preventing the flooding of low lying cities and producing and marketing timber on 13% of a county’s land area whilst making sure the timber is produced alongside a host of other seemingly incompatible activities in the forest.  And that’s only the half of it.

I hope that the building at CyB will be looked after and made available for someone to take on and run a great cafe and employ local people and make it a great place to work.  For those currently employed there it won’t be the same though. I wonder what will happen to that pristine retro Stumpjumper in the centre.

I've only been to CYB a couple of times on holiday last year. I went the first time on my own to scope it out and took sandwiches as normally anywhere like that is michelin starred restaurant money for a bacon sarnie. I was surprised at how reasonable the prices were to the extent I thought they should put them up a bit! and though the food wasn't amazing it looked absolutely fine for a muddy mtb and his family on a day out. The trails were good fun and a couple of days later I brought my family - my wife and one daughter had a fantastic (signed so no real maps needed, ideal for them) walk whilst me and the other daughter did a trail. As we took longer they sat in the cafe and had a coffee etc whilst we enjoyed more trails.

All in all the whole family had a fantastic day out - my wife and daughter would almost certainly not have come if there wasn't the infrastructure to have a couple of coffee's and go into the VC and check out the various walks that could be done, work out which one was the best for them based on viewpoints and time available and know there were toilets, refreshments etc when they got back.

Yes we go hiking in the proper countryside too but then its obviously more of a thing with planning etc having to be done in advance and crucially my wife wouldn't do that on her own or with my daughter.

My impression after both sessions was 'blimey that wasn't very expensive for some lovely groomed trails' (which are not normally my thing) Can't remember parking price so it must have been lowish.

In reply to gowerboy:

(For context, I'm a long time lurker, that doesn't work for NRW, I'm always disappointed by how overgrown and poorly maintained the trail centers are, and with this recent round of redundancies, wanted to work out if they were underfunded or incompetent, excuse the obviously AI generated report, but the conclusions are mostly accurate. Even on a population ratio, they should be getting 202mn, which would be equivalent to at least the 13mn shortfall)

# Report: Analysis of Natural Resources Wales Funding in Comparison to English Counterparts

## Executive Summary

This report analyzes the funding of Natural Resources Wales (NRW) in comparison to its English counterparts, specifically the Environment Agency (EA), Forestry Commission (FC), and relevant portions of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). The analysis reveals a significant underfunding of NRW relative to the land area it manages, suggesting that NRW cannot reasonably be expected to deliver on its remit at the same level as its English counterparts given its current budget constraints.

## 1. Introduction

Natural Resources Wales (NRW) is responsible for managing the environment and natural resources of Wales, a role that combines functions handled by separate agencies in England. This report examines whether NRW's funding is commensurate with its responsibilities, particularly in relation to land management.

## 2. Methodology

We compared NRW's budget to the combined budgets of the Environment Agency, Forestry Commission, and a portion of DEFRA's budget that aligns with NRW's responsibilities. We then calculated proportional budgets based on population and land area ratios between Wales and England.

## 3. Data and Calculations

### 3.1 Budget Information (2022/23)

- NRW: £182 million

- EA: £1.4 billion

- FC: £103.2 million

- DEFRA: £7.2 billion (30% considered relevant: £2.16 billion)

### 3.2 Comparative Ratios

- Population ratio (Wales/England): 0.0554 (5.54%)

- Land area ratio (Wales/England): 0.1594 (15.94%)

### 3.3 Combined English Budget for Comparison

EA + FC + 30% of DEFRA = £3.6632 billion

### 3.4 Proportional Budget Calculations

- Based on population: £202.94 million

- Based on land area: £583.91 million

## 4. Analysis

### 4.1 Budget Comparison

NRW's actual budget (£182 million) is:

- 10.3% lower than the population-based estimate

- 68.8% lower than the land area-based estimate

### 4.2 Land Management Focus

Given NRW's significant land management responsibilities, the land area-based comparison is particularly relevant. NRW is operating with less than one-third (31.2%) of the budget that would be allocated based on land area.

### 4.3 Operational Challenges

With a budget significantly lower than what land area proportions would suggest, NRW faces substantial challenges in delivering services comparable to its English counterparts, particularly in:

- Environmental protection

- Forestry management

- Flood risk management

- Conservation and biodiversity efforts

### 4.4 Wales-Specific Factors

- Higher proportion of rural and protected areas requiring intensive management

- Unique environmental challenges (e.g., ex-industrial land remediation)

- Integrated structure requiring management of diverse responsibilities

## 5. Findings

1. Severe Underfunding: NRW is severely underfunded when compared to its English counterparts, particularly considering the land area it manages.

2. Unrealistic Expectations: It is unrealistic to expect NRW to deliver on its full remit at the same level as English agencies given the current funding disparity.

3. Land Management Impact: The funding shortage is likely to have the most significant impact on land management activities, which are resource-intensive and crucial for environmental protection.

4. Operational Strain: The integrated nature of NRW, while potentially efficient, may be under severe strain due to the breadth of responsibilities coupled with limited funding.

## 6. Conclusions

Based on the analysis of actual budgets and calculated proportions, it is evident that Natural Resources Wales is significantly underfunded compared to its English counterparts. The disparity is particularly stark when considering the land area NRW is responsible for managing.

The current funding level of NRW, at approximately one-third of what would be allocated based on land area, makes it implausible for the organization to deliver on its full remit at a level comparable to English agencies. This underfunding is likely to result in:

1. Reduced capacity for comprehensive land management

2. Limitations on environmental protection initiatives

3. Challenges in meeting all statutory obligations

4. Potential long-term environmental and economic costs due to underinvestment

@mikeayles. Interesting analysis thanks.

We were at CyB yesterday to ride. The beat is still a great loop if you skip some of the fire road sections. The carpark was full. However by 3pm the cafe had nothing to sell and was empty with people using their tables for picnics rather than the non offering from the cafe. The parking system was wasn’t working so the lady at the visitor centre desk told me it was free as a result. No wonder it’s in a mess financially. We expected to pay for parking and would have enjoyed a coffee and snack. As a result the £25-30 we would have spent we didn’t.

I think that there's a lot of 'special pricing' going against NRW/CyB. I've heard that the roof needs fixing there - and they've been quoted a million quid to fix it. Now if you were a commercial roofer and a government agency asked you for a quote, I'd reckon that a round million it what you might start at, regardless of cost. The thing that the community group is trying to suggest is 'Hey, let us take the car park money and we'll get everything fixed - the roof, the trails, the cafe' - and I imagine that a community group asking a local roofer for a quote would result in a far more competitive quote. The same goes for the cafe where, (so I've heard, feel free to discount this) the staff handling sharp items (ie kitchen knives) need to have passed NRW's general 'working with blades' qualification which normally is about chainsaws and axes... so there's no one allowed to do more than cut a pasty in half. There's not enough money for trail maintenance, yet local groups are prohibited from working in the forest to fix them themselves as they're not qualified... I don't think NRW is doing itself any favours, presumably as there are more managers managing things from afar, rather than forestry people who know how everything works.

By coincidence, I have Sian and Dafydd staying with me this week, so I shall quiz them...

Thats a great analysis which shows the broader issue of inequality we face in the UK. It certainly gives weight to the argument that NRW/we should be lobbying for better funding from central government.

For me , it’s a question of using the right tool for the job. The cafe should be put out to tender (like the bike shop). Its a business, so best operated as such. NRW need to focus on setting the tenders, taking responsibility for public provision of leisure and ownership of the land/forest. What I think is really missing are the managers and maintainers in-between. Daf & sian did a great job of starting it off. What we need are people and resources (community or NRW?) who will bring life to the enterprise day-to-day. That means making sure the parking works, maintaining the facilities, fixing the roof and grooming the trails. Maybe even encouraging other, more diverse activities. It would be a tragedy to pass on the opportunity.

By coincidence, I have Sian and Dafydd staying with me this week, so I shall quiz them…

Say Hi for me. 🙂

Your <shrug> shows your complete disregard and indifference to what most ordinary people actually want on a day out, especially families.

Eh? The North American model just means that visitors to an area go to the local community for this stuff where, generally, multiple services are available. This has been a life-blood for MANY ex-logging towns or other towns which were decimated when their local industry shut down.

So, the local town's provide food, accommodation, bike shops, other useful services as well as other touristy stuff to do.

In reality, all those visitors to CyB cafe etc are just capturing trade which otherwise would have/should have gone to Dolgellau*.

Sure, the cafe will employee some locals and, if this was privately run, then the business owner (alone) will make some profit but that increase in incoming funds could benefit multiple business owners if visitors are directed into the town centre.

And for those maintaining the cafe could be profitable, well, it seems history has proven to doesn't get enough trade (for whatever reason) and that it's questionable whether it's worthwhile...

* It's been at least 20 years since I was last in Dolgellau. I seem to remember car parking wasn't great so if that's still the case, maybe the town needs to fix that first and make the town more welcoming to visitors. Happy to be corrected!

I get to encounter many sides of NRW and there does seem to be a massive lack of funding combined with a general government way of working that is more costly as it is trying to do the best thing whilst strangling itself in processes.

The organisation has barely recovered from its last organisational review and it's now going through another. Good staff eventually leave through frustration, some are reallocated into roles they have no idea about and many other roles remain vacant or scrapped. They are gradually being stripped back to the bare statutory requirements.
There are whole processes that can be completed in England before even getting a first acknowledgement in Wales.

I visited CYB a few weeks ago for the 1st time as part of a Welsh MTB road trip. I thought it was the best trail centre I've been to apart from the cafe. We went in for lunch after riding black bull (which was awesome) and there were no pastries or pasties left, some really sad prepacked sandwiches in a chiller and the only cooked food was bacon or sausage or egg roll or beans on toast. We had planned to sit and have a decent lunch whilst using the free ebike chargers.

I hope they can sort things out and don't lose any of the facilities.

Are we all agreed by what we mean by visitor centre?

CYB has a visitor centre plus cafe, toilets, bike shop and i think bike wash . Llandegla has a shop, cafe, toilet and bikebike wash. But no visitor centre

I’m not saying in right here just looking for clarity

That looks right to me. ⬆️

Does FoD have a visitor centre? I wouldn't consider PABA to fit the description.

FoD has much better trails than CyB and are constantly improving and maintaining those trails, plus so much off-piste that I doubt I'll ever ride all of it.

As for paying to ride, that's exactly what happens at 'Degla and it's always busy there. Having said that, I wouldn't pay to ride at CYB with its current trails.

I’ve heard that the roof needs fixing there

It does look quite fancy, which can't be helping things. A simpler more normal building which can earn its own upkeep would have done, forget the indulgent eco design crap.

imagine that a community group asking a local roofer

I imagine NRW would need to engage a specialist firm who can demonstrate experience of similar projects, and who is willing to go through all the hurdles to become an approved supplier etc. Cue a whole team with equipment coming from somewhere in England every week to do the job, staying in hotels, travelling back for the weekend.

staff handling sharp items (ie kitchen knives) need to have passed NRW’s general ‘working with blades’ qualification which normally is about chainsaws and axes

Send them on a course probably at least 50 miles away, by an approved supplier, needs at least one night away from home, travel expenses, chargeback to the NRW office bod organising it, ...

presumably as there are more managers managing things from afar

I bet a good share of the £350k yearly loss goes on this. Few percent of various office staff costs attributed to each visitor centre.

The centre will probably be better off run by a CIC who know what people actually want and can deliver it in a more efficient way.

Bet NRW will retain the parking money though.

This popped up on my news feed earlier:

https://www.wired.com/story/bike-park-wales-rewilding-private-sector-finance/

Fair play. Shows what can be done with the right people behind it and no public sector limitations.

The decision has been made to close the cafes and shops:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0lp4x1jwn9o.amp

that's a shame

from a selfish viewpoint - anyone know what is happening (or not happening) with the trails?

from a selfish viewpoint – anyone know what is happening (or not happening) with the trails?

They'll remain as they are.

It's a shame the Cafe's and Centres will close, mostly because of the staff losing their jobs.

I'm not surprised though, they're generally not great. Someone mentioned EU funding above. Yes a lot of the newer centres got built with EU funds, you'd think with an effectively free building you could run a cafe at a profit, but it's not the case. It's seems a symptom of EU / Public funded facilities, they will invest in grand, usually too large buildings but because funding is usually a one-off thing, there's no money to run or maintain them.

IME the Cafe's, I'll say it how I feel it, they're crap. Service is slow and unenthusiastic; I don't expect to be waited on, but usually you queue for ages, you pay, they mumble something, you fetch your own grubby cutlery and 20-60 mins later some bland looking, cold food it brought to you. Service with a frown. It's not exactly cheap either. I don't blame the staff, you can't actively recruit 'miserable ****ers to work in a Cafe', it has to be a product of the working environment.

Alternatively, Llandegla Cafe is lovely, it's loud and rowdy, the food is great and you might wait for it a while, but because it's busy. Same with the FOD TC cafe. It's a nice place to be.

Moreso, MTB riding is changing. NRW are now more willing to work with local riding groups to grant licences for 'wild trail maintenance'. Cwmcarn is still very busy, mostly because of Risca BP, that's not hyperbole, Strava / Trailforks show that more people ride more KMs on the Wild Trails than they do on the official trails there. Riders can choose to ride Twrch for the 100th time, complain how worn out it is, or overgrown, or ride Wacko Jacko, it's probably changed since you rode it last, it's maintained constantly. NRW put up a gate about a week ago to discourage riders entering the park area. It took them about 4 days to create a short new trail to avoid it and keep everyone safe and happy.  Afan on the other hand, it's dead. BPW soak up the weekender crowd and the trails are generally in a shit state.

Thu @ 5pm: Online Public Meeting on future of Coed y Brenin & Nant yr Arian

Hi everyone

We wanted to let you know that NRW are holding an online public meeting at 5pm this Thursday, 5th Dec, on the future of Coed y Brenin and Bwlch Nant yr Arian:

We are holding an online public meeting to update communities on the future of Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Ynyslas and Coed y Brenin visitor centres.

The online meeting will start at 5pm on Thursday, December 5 and you can join via this link https://orlo.uk/Y8K09

This meeting will cover the same information provided at public meetings recently held in the local communities and will include the chance to ask questions.

If you’re at all interested in what happens to these important parts of the UK’s mountain bike infrastructure, then please attend the online meeting to show your support!

NRW have also set up an online consultation page, which may be updated with some FAQs before the meeting, and where they give an email address for people to ask questions ahead of the meeting.

NRW are currently saying that, although they’re temporarily closing the cafes and visitor centres while they look for new partners to take them on, the trails themselves will remain open and continue to be maintained. Given the budget cuts that NRW have committed to, we are sceptical about NRW’s intention and ability to maintain the trails on an ongoing basis, and thus whether they’ll be able to keep the trails open in the long run. That scepticism seems to be shared by the local businesses and communities around the trails.

Thank you in advance for your help on this.

cheers

Robin

Robin Grant
Founder & Chair
UK MTB Trail Alliance