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Is it time we did away with this pretty antiquated custom? I once read that the first Monday after we changed the clocks had a marked spike in accidents.
It's high time we stopped whining about it every six months. 🙂
Presumably if we did do away with it, it would be going forward we'd get shut of rather than back. And honestly, unless it was done globally it'd probably cause more problems than it solved.
And honestly, unless it was done globally it’d probably cause more problems than it solved.
Why would it cause issues globally? Majority of countries dont change their clocks. Admittedly be awkward for people dealing a lot with Europe but even then not overly difficult to adapt to.
In the west of Ireland we change the clocks but it gets dark at the latest at 5pm But back in blighty, down sarf 4pm. Just seems pointless nowadays.
Jeezus. Not this again.
Indeed. Didn't we do this yesterday?
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/daylight-saving-the-movie-trailer/
Majority of countries dont change their clocks.
No, but many do.
Didn't the majority of the EU countries decide to do away with the time changes recently?
I think we would need to stay GMT+1 all year round which would probably defeat the GMT line. Screwed up face confused emoji.
Yeah, technically Spain is in the wrong time zone according to longitude... but they were just like "**** it" ... deal with it.
im more for a change forward around the mid/end of feb - that is when the light evening start to pick up
Why would it cause issues globally?
Because our neighbouring countries are x hours different. Eg, the East coast of the US is -5 hours from UK time regardless of whether we're on GMT or BST.
I think we would need to stay GMT+1 all year round which would probably defeat the GMT line.
Use UTC as the baseline instead.
Yeah, but there's like a week difference.
*some* years the Septics change their locks at a different date to us. But not every year. But any way it's irrelevant in the 21st century as technology means you can avoid ****ing up what time it is.
However we should change to CET so we're aligned with our closest (and largest) trading countries- ie western Europe - France, Germany, Italy, Spain especially.
Need to stop having the tail (Jocks and farmers) wagging the dog.
Need to stop having the tail (Jocks and farmers) wagging the dog.
Prevent it from barking with a juicy bone.
@poopscoop does this mean you’ll need to stay up again tonight to check if it changes at 2am or not?????
However we should change to CET so we’re aligned with our closest (and largest) trading countries- ie western Europe
If only to make the brexiteers fume 😉
UTC is the correct time to use. Well TAI would be ultimately the right time IMHO, but UTC would be easier to convince.
Let each country/state decide what it's normal trading/school hours are if it's too light/dark ate certain times of the year.
In autumn clock hands fall back
for that missing hour to reclaim.
This upsets our sleeping pattern,
now the brain we need to retrain.
Time then returns to normal
sending the body into shock.
We are messing around with time
by moving those hands on the clock.
We should keep the clock time fixed on UTC but change business hours by an hour in the summer to keep the scottish schoolchildren safe and happy 🙂
Give all Scottish schoolchildren torches
As someone who lives in Scotland, I can't see the point of going back to GMT. Either way I'd be going out and coming home in the dark. It's one of the two downsides of being up here, that and the unrelenting cold.
Yeah, but there’s like a week difference.
4 weeks this year where the time difference won't be 5 hours.
but change business hours by an hour in the summer to keep the scottish schoolchildren safe and happy
There is a fairly convincing case for moving school hours to be later especially for teens to suit the body clocks better (puberty shifts the circadian rhythm).
Although obviously comes with lots of downsides regarding childcare etc.
Interesting….
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/26/most-countries-dont-observe-daylight-saving-time
Even more confusingly, Hawaii and Arizona don't change their clocks at all.
Tho looks like the US might be winding the clock back a few decades in early November anyway
Just came back from a holiday in Arizona, who don't do daylight saving (stay on Mountain Standard all year around). Navajo Nation do, while Hopi reservation do not. So we had one day we changed clocks 6 times going in and out of reservations and AZ state rules.
Also in Australia 3 states don't have daylight saving, the rest do.
There was a piece on Radio 4 from the sleep society. They are lobbying for UTC all year round, to help circadian process (lighter mornings) in late spring and early autumn. You would think at least align the dates with the equinoxes.
Why would it cause issues globally?
Read "A Man of Shadows" by Jeff Noon to see how difficult things are when people disagree on what the time is.
Oh and geeky time zone fact :Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands used to be at UTC - 12 when the rest of the Marshalls were at UTC +12 so they were on a different day. This was partly because it's a US Military base and they used to test fire missiles from west coast USA to land in the Kwaj lagoon, and keeping to the same day as the USA avoided awkward mistakes.
With a 7am flight to catch this couldn't be better timed
Read “A Man of Shadows” by Jeff Noon to see how difficult things are when people disagree on what the time is.
I could but I am not sure of the relevance.
The question I was asking is why, bearing in mind most of the world doesnt adjust times and that those countries which do dont necessarily do it in sync with us, would it cause problems globally.
Sure be a bit of an arse updating systems to remove the check but nothing overly difficult. From experience the adjustment leads to more confusion when working with Asia when suddenly some meeting times start getting rejected.
Given the evidence of accidents etc there is a strong case to drop it vs an unclear case in its defence.
It’s the dyslexics I feel sorry for.
It must be terrifying waiting for your cocks to go black
(puberty shifts the circadian rhythm)
Gosh,I remember those times.We used to dance all night?
that and the unrelenting cold
#naeplacefirsofties.?
We should keep the clock time fixed on UTC but change business hours
and
There was a piece on Radio 4 from the sleep society. They are lobbying for UTC all year round
Ultimately it's just a number. If you go to bed at 11pm BST, go to bed at 10pm after the clocks go back.
Ultimately it’s just a number. If you go to bed at 11pm BST, go to bed at 10pm after the clocks go back.
Apparently there's more to it...though I'm still to be convinced. Something to do with Circadian rhythms. Was working with some academics of young adults and sleep cycles with a view to starting the school day later for older teens because it works better with their sleep cycle. I, like you, thought it was bobbins - if they went to bed an hour earlier and started working an hour earlier it would be just the same. I cited kids in France and south of England being only 20 miles away from each other but in different time zones......but apparently I was still wrong. Lots of reference to sleep experiments in cells devoid of day light or clocks and people of different ages settling into different rhythms.
It all sounded like bollox to me but people who know much more than me seem to think it's a thing so what do I know.
"Ultimately it’s just a number. If you go to bed at 11pm BST, go to bed at 10pm after the clocks go back."
Problem with that approach is when you get to work an hour earlier than everyone else in the morning and/or can't do stuff in the evening that you wanted to.
Personally I try to use the October clocks going back as a cheat way in to being more productive in the mornings, if you flip your alarm from say 7am to 6am on Monday in real terms you'll be getting up at the same time as last week and then use that freebie to try and build a pre work gym / run / swim habit before your body clock realises what you've done.
Also, my youngest was born at 1.45am on the sunday the clocks went back, they go back at 2am so for 45 minutes she was alive and simultaneously hadn't been born yet if that makes sense. She's 5 tomorrow which is the first time it's fallen on a Sunday since.
Even if we had a standard time all through the year, we’d still be different to the rest of the world because time zones, and nothing can change that. It was the Great Western Railway that introduced a set time between London and Bristol, previously they had different times, so think yourselves lucky we only have daylight saving time to contend with twice a year.
It doesn’t bother me, I can’t quite understand why it does so many other people. *shrugs*
Problem with that approach is when you get to work an hour earlier than everyone else in the morning and/or can’t do stuff in the evening that you wanted to.
There's still a fixed number of hours in the day. If you get up an hour earlier (by the clock), go to work an hour earlier, leave an hour earlier and go to bed an hour earlier, nothing's changed overall.
If you cut three inches off the bottom edge of a towel and sew it back onto the top, the towel hasn't shrunk or grown.
Also, my youngest was born at 1.45am on the sunday the clocks went back, they go back at 2am so for 45 minutes she was alive and simultaneously hadn’t been born yet if that makes sense. She’s 5 tomorrow which is the first time it’s fallen on a Sunday since.
Yup. When I worked you’d be recognising someone as deceased about 30 minutes or so before they collapsed.
It’s totally pointless and needs scrapped, doesn’t matter what America does.
With a 7am flight to catch this couldn’t be better timed
I had two Sundays when I flew back from Australia a couple of years ago due to crossing the International Date Line. The plane landed in San Francisco before it had left Sydney.
This confused me.
It was the Great Western Railway that introduced a set time between London and Bristol, previously they had different times
Theres still a clock in Bristol with two minute hands, one black - one red, to show the 'London time' and 'Bristol Local Time" simulatiously
Is it time we did away with this pretty antiquated custom?
It's maybe more pertinent now than when it was introduced. Theres a lot of myth relating to Daylight Saving - about it somehow benefiting farmers (who work all the daylight hours regardless of what the clock says), or being to do with school kids journeys to / from school.
The reason we legislated for BST in the UK (it was campaigned for over a few years without success for all sorts of possible quite spurious reasons - but reason the legislation was actually passed) was becuase there was a fuel crisis. It was WW1 and people had been drafted from the mines to fight on the front line and there was as a result a shortage of coal for heating and power generation for lighting. BST moved a larger swather of the annual the working and social hours day into daylight and correspondingly reduced demand for power.
The US actually had a double daylight saving period in the 70s (it shifted summer time by two hours) is response to the oil crisis then too.
I think it's fair to say concerns over fuel use haven't gone away. I don't think you'd reason on abolishing BST specifically so we can all spend more on power and light and welcome the attendant consumption of resources and increased emissions
Theres also plenty of professions and practices that are daylight dependant - I wouldn't really fancy working as a roofer or a tree surgeon in the dark for instance. Although anyone can do those jobs any time they like they still have to intersect with customers and suppliers, they still have families and kids to get to, and collect from school etc. So it's not generally a bad thing for the clock to shift to track with the daylight rather than those businesses to somehow cooperate in shifting the business hours through the year.
What is antiquated is being at all bothered about it - its all done for you it's never been easier and will only ever get easier still - its something that has barely any impact on two Sunday mornings a year.
If you cut three inches off the bottom edge of a towel and sew it back onto the top, the towel hasn’t shrunk or grown.
its something that has barely any impact on two Sunday mornings a year
Actually it has quite an impact on heath. Allegedly.
Well as I’m currently on a 13hr for the price of 12 night shift, I’d heartily support abolishing the stupid rule. Grrrrr
This time change is the one I like the least. I've been sat in the front room since 5, and can't make noise for an extra hour!
Curse my inability to have a lay in.
Well as I’m currently on a 13hr for the price of 12 night shift
What's preventing you from leaving after 12 hours? That doesn't seem right/fair.
What’s preventing you from leaving after 12 hours? That doesn’t seem right/fair.
You can’t it based on finish time not hours completed, it’s seen as beyond your employer’s control. I ended up looking into this one year as a member of staff raised the issue with the extra hour.
Who's control is it under then?
If it's a case of ensuring coverage between concurrent shifts, the just thing to do would be to pay an hour's overtime. If the shoe were on the other foot and I got the "11 hour" shift I'd expect to work 12 hours.
I work in social care we don't get paid for tha extra hour when clocks go back, we do get paid for an extra hour when clocks go forward. So it's assumed that it roughly balances out to be honest the clocks going forward is the more difficult shift às we are supporting some people who don't understand the changes in time so they can be grumpy when you have to wake them up
Was great this am no head torch required for early morning ride
Who’s control is it under then?
If it’s a case of ensuring coverage between concurrent shifts, the just thing to do would be to pay an hour’s overtime. If the shoe were on the other foot and I got the “11 hour” shift I’d expect to work 12 hours.
Well no one really.
When they go forward no one would be happy to lose an hours pay or have to work an hour past their finish time. If you’ve applied for a job that does shifts then you know what you applied for.
it’s assumed that it roughly balances out
That's all well and good so long as your on shift both times.
I wonder how it interacts with minimum wage legislation. But not enough to google it.
I wonder how it interacts with minimum wage legislation. But not enough to google it.
IIRC wages age worked over a 3 month period average, not one shift.
If working a shift during the clock change time, could you not take a break just as the clocks change, giving you an extra hour?
No.
Need to stop having the tail (Jocks and farmers) wagging the dog.
QI Hooter!
Despite the bolloqualisms we hear twice a year, no farmer ever wanted this or even thought about it. You have to think about why would they?
IIRC wages age worked over a 3 month period average, not one shift.
Which would mean no-one could be paid a wage that was min wage for a standard shift, over a period that included this long shift.
This forum software really is shit
Which would mean no-one could be paid a wage that was min wage for a standard shift, over a period that included this long shift.
Nope, as the extra hour is not included. Likewise when they go forward they can’t take the hour off you.
If you didn't have it, you'd miss it. Who the hell wants the sun coming up at 3am in summer? That hour of sun is much more enjoyable in the evenings. And in winter, getting up and getting all the way to work in darkness is grim.
We all hate dark mornings and we love long summer evenings. If you didn't do daylight savings time we'd have far more dark mornings and far fewer long summer evenings.
Anyway, re the 'it's all done digitally' comment earlier: When it truly is all automatic, you could just add or subtract a couple of minutes each day and no=one would notice.
But any way it’s irrelevant in the 21st century as technology means you can avoid **** up what time it is.
This made me smile. I work in IT for a major financial services organisation, and last night we basically turned everything off for about four hours*, then turned it all back on again, cos otherwise lots of computer things would have gone splat when the clocks went back.
And we are absolutely not the only organisation that has to do this.
* but as I was on-call, that was fine by me, as nothing can go wrong if it's all turned off 🙂
(Although why all our stuff doesn't work to UTC to avoid this kind of issue, which is literally why the bloody thing was invented, astounds me)
Nope, as the extra hour is not included
Having said I wasn't sufficiently interested, I have bothered to google it and it took me all of 20 seconds to find a website saying you're wrong:
https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/working-clocks-go-back-employers-handle-extra-hour-2/
I used to work a day shift pattern and management consulted about turning it into a 24hr shift system. They put forward a couple of schemes, both involving lengthy explanations of what would happen to the people working at the time clocks went forward or back. Can't remember the details (and the shift system was ultimately never put into operation anyway) but it was certainly accounted for somehow.
Much as I don't really care one way or the other about the clock change, I hate riding at this time of year. It takes drivers a couple of weeks for them to get used to driving home in the dark and for those two weeks, it's insane on the roads. Also, look out for the number of one-eyed cars around. Shows that the last time they turned their headlights on was about February...
This made me smile. I work in IT for a major financial services organisation, and last night we basically turned everything off for about four hours*, then turned it all back on again, cos otherwise lots of computer things would have gone splat when the clocks went back.
And we are absolutely not the only organisation that has to do this.
Seriously? You mean to tell me that in 2024 sophisticated computer systems can’t be programmed to take into account clocks being changed by an hour twice a year? Christ, the only things in my house that I had to change the time on this morning were three battery powered analogue clocks!
Even my solar Casio watch changed its own time, although to be fair it’s Bluetooth connected, and I was surprised, because its cheaper sibling which doesn’t have BT has to be manually adjusted.
Despite the bolloqualisms we hear twice a year, no farmer ever wanted this or even thought about it. You have to think about why would they?
The joke* in Australia is that Queenslanders argue against daylight savings because:
a) It will confuse the cows because their milking times will change
b) the extra daylight will cause curtains to fade faster.
.
.
*I can imagine these examples are actually based on real letters sent to local papers.
Even my solar Casio watch changed its own time, although to be fair it’s Bluetooth connected, and I was surprised, because its cheaper sibling which doesn’t have BT has to be manually adjusted.
I was away camping on a riding trip a few weeks ago when the clocks changed in the state to the south of us (New South Wales). Sunday morning we'd agreed to get moving relatively early as it was set to hit 36 degrees and we wanted to avoid the worst of the heat. I'm packing up my tent and getting the distinct impression one of my mates was getting irritated with how long the rest of us were taking. It was 7am but it turned out that both her Garmin watch and her Android phone had changed time to 8am even though we weren't even that close to the time zone and she hadn't set it for NSW time either.
Having said I wasn’t sufficiently interested, I have bothered to google it and it took me all of 20 seconds to find a website saying you’re wrong:
I don’t think that article says what you think it does.
Christ, the only things in my house that I had to change the time on this morning were three battery powered analogue clocks!
You don’t have an oven?
Seriously? You mean to tell me that in 2024 sophisticated computer systems can’t be programmed to take into account clocks being changed by an hour twice a year?
I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying they aren't.
You don’t have an oven?
Mine updated its self over wifi, the only useful function that the wifi offers I've found
Christ, the only things in my house that I had to change the time on this morning were three battery powered analogue clocks!
The clock in my Mum's car is now correct for the next 5 months. Then it'll go back to its summer status of being an hour out.. 😉
I don’t think that article says what you think it does
It could hardly be clearer:
If an employee who is paid at or near the national minimum wage or the national living wage rate works an extra hour when the clocks go back, the employer must be careful that the extra hour does not take the employee’s pay below the relevant rate.
The only way an extra hour worked could not take someone (who was normally on the min wage) below min wage would be if they either got more money or did an hour less elsewhere (but not only when the clock changes again, as that's too far away for a 3 month average).
The joke* in Australia is that Queenslanders argue against daylight savings because:
a) It will confuse the cows because their milking times will change
Has anyone been to Nant-y-arian?
The visitors centre feeds the kites at 3pm. About 5 minutes before, the birds suddenly appear.
Not sure how they cope