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We need some balance in this thread.
Keeping it real with Joe.
Keeping it real with Joe.
"He'd nowt but pluck and beginners luck and his mother's washing line"
even the most basic belay plate will lock of its own accord if the rope(s) are in the right configuration
Which configuration is that?
“He’d nowt but pluck and beginners luck and his mother’s washing line
"His climbs were just like him. Short and hard."
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
What I am most worried about (at the wall at least) is accidentally letting go of the dead rope, or fumbling it. Especially if or when my kids end up learning to belay.
I agree with others - a grigri isn't a substitute for learning to belay properly so that you don't drop your partner. When belaying you don't let go of the dead rope - and if kids are belaying and not competent to do it themselves then you have somebody who is competent tailing the rope. If you get into good habits then you don't make mistakes with this. The reason for not using other backups as you suggest is that they would all get in the way when lead climbing - and ultimately that's where the dangerous stuff happens, top roping should be and is very safe, you don't even have to concentrate very hard to do that well.
[i]Cougar wrote:[/i]
This is the bowline argument again. A Gri-Gri is safer and ‘better’ in the right hands, but it’s also vastly easier to use incorrectly with hilarious consequences.
I belay with a GG, but (personally) unlike a bowline knot I’m confident in using it reliably, safely and consistently
Good point well made. Personally I'd consider using a grigri because you're not confident with your belaying ability to be totally the wrong course of action - personally I've used a grigri, but wouldn't consider teaching somebody using one, partly as I don't know it well enough, but partly because it's not the right way to learn to belay. One of my regular climbing partners does use one and she has her own valid reasons - though whilst it helps her confidence when lead belaying (and she's held me on a fall below second clip with it) she can belay perfectly well with a normal device.
Anyway, for anybody thinking a grigri is anything close to fail safe should watch this from 3:40 and particularly from 5:10 (though the whole thing is worth watching).
(back on the original subject I note this is one of Petzl's most publicised videos - check out how she is tied in).
“Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs............"
I'd be a little cautious there for 2 reasons
firstly some krabs from around that time were extruded and bent hollow aluminium and were found to routinely fail in gate open loading (happens more than you think) - one brand I remember throwing away were oval Bonatti's - look at a "modern' krab and it is forged aluminium with the design beefing up the gate open strength
secondly for quickdraws somewhere I got the idea in my head that it is probably good practise to replace the krabs at the end you clip bolts with maybe every couple of years or so if climbing and falling a lot - believe that there have been failures attributed to the gouging of the relatively soft metal of krabs by repeated falls
@molgrips firstly: This is not a recommended way to belay, it is just a demonstration of how even the simplest belay device can, given the right circumstances, "autolock".
So, with a climber leading and the belayer stood on the floor with the rope coming downwards from leader through belay plate around the retaining screwgate, back out through belay plate and down to floor. The leader falls, firstly all the slack between climber and belayer is taken up then the rope begins to move through the plate at speed*. Because there's some inherent friction between rope and device and there's some weight to the rope on the floor, the device gets pulled back against the screwgate and locks.
Basically the weight of the dead rope is behaving in the same way as your braking hand would do: apply pressure so that the rope passing through the device has to make some very sharp radius bends which increases friction. This multiple bending of the rope is basically how all belay and abseil devices work.
As per my first words: Do not belay like this! There are too many things to go wrong. It's less likely to work with new ropes or thinner ropes for example and also relies on there being quite a weight of rope on the ground. Don't do it!
* This is why you should always have a controlling hand on the dead rope - by the time you feel the pull of the falling climber on the rope they already have considerable momentum and it will be much harder to stop them without getting rope burn.
I agree with others – a grigri isn’t a substitute for learning to belay properly so that you don’t drop your partner.
Obviously. I've not suggested that is the least.
And yes, you shouldn't let go of the dead rope - everyone knows this. But what if you do? A Grigri at least stands a slightly better chance of locking in that situation - at least, I think it does.
The other situation is when lowering someone off - which happens on every climb. If I somehow fumble the rope with an ATC they will fall. If I let go of the handle on a loaded Grigri, they will stop.
I thought I read somewhere that the newest gri gri (or it might have been another similar device) had been updated so when you pull back hard on the lever it actually locks (to ensure the rope is braked when the lever is pulled in a panic)
A GriGri requires a force to activate the braking mechanism. It is possible, but unlikely, that the device fails to work because not enough force has been applied. The most likely scenario is when the rope in the system is fairly snug and the climber simply sags onto the rope, if the belayer doesn't notice that this is happening and "shocks" the device into locking then the rope will simply slip through it. The lighter the climber the more likely this is.
I know you are looking at protecting your kids but to a large degree you are over thinking this. With more than one child I'd get one of the others to act as second and third hands on the dead rope. This way they get to feel some form of responsibility and you can let them "control" the descent of the one lowering off while you are still in the system and can grab the rope should anything go awry.
No device is fail safe though some are more so than others, given the right set of circumstances any device may fail but with another set of circumstances any device can auto-lock. Basically it doesn't matter what device you use, you still need to be alert.
I know you are looking at protecting your kids but to a large degree you are over thinking this.
There's a massive flaw in the safety system. But everyone accepts it cos that's just the way it is. Like car seatbelts in the 70s.
Basically it doesn’t matter what device you use, you still need to be alert.
Of course, and I'm not arguing otherwise. But accidents happen, and I want to be covered as much as I can be.
Molgrips - you won't drop the kids. I haven't and I'm a complete idiot. The two older boys (9 and 12) tie themselves in and can belay each other safely (with me backing up) an they are bigger idiots than me (most of the time). I've impressed the importance of safety on them, and so do their lessons - its about the only time I see them focussed fully.
Far more experienced people than me have demonstrated the amount of friction generated through the belay device and I dare say your girls weigh next to nothing. Two krabs I've seen but never felt the need.
It's all about learning right, repetition, focus and muscle memory all of which you clearly have covered,and the fact you're concerned is even better. Just grab one of the staff or another climber to observe if you're feeling rusty maybe, before they start . I did it for my first 3 solo visits, and going to different centers (forcing an induction inspection) can keep you on your toes.
However, I find the best way to keep myself focussed is simply to imagine explaining an incident of
any sort to Mrs B 😀
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
There’s a massive flaw in the safety system. But everyone accepts it cos that’s just the way it is. Like car seatbelts in the 70s.
There really isn't - not if you get properly trained and learn how to do things properly. I'm 100% confident I'm not going to drop my kids when I take them climbing - if it's worrying you then I suggest you spend your money on a training course rather than a grigri, the failsafe mechanism is knowing what to do and doing it every time.
Your argument here is along the lines of "what if I lose concentration, let go of the wheel and drive into that tree". Seatbelts won't help you much more than a grigri will.
Accidents happen because people do things fundamentally wrong - and you can still do things fundamentally wrong when using a grigri.
The massive flaw is?
If there were such a flaw then there'd be countless accidents every weekend.
[i]antigee wrote:[/i]
“Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs…………”
I’d be a little cautious there for 2 reasons
I'm thinking bent alu krabs are maybe rather older than that - mine are all forged with gate open ratings stamped on them. They're a bit heavier than modern krabs, but the ratings are the same. I've already covered the wear issue - they don't wear when sitting in the gear box for 15 years and I suspect they've had more use in the last year than the previous 24 - I'll replace metal bits based upon use and inspection (I got a new belay krab, and will be replacing my current one this year based on wear - was thinking of getting a steel one for use at the wall, but will probably get one of the new Edelrid ones with a steel insert and anti-spin clip).
Was surprised to see the instructor at the awesome place I take my kids to lets them belay in short order, like the second lesson. Actually stood up in surprise when I first saw my 6yo daughter belaying another kid way high up the wall, instructor standing a few feet away as he was covering three of them [ie not handling the rope himself]. I am not a climber, so fair to say I can't evaluate the real risks - can he step in in the event of a fall? Just seems like it would create total panic in such a young belayer [plus she was belaying the one kid in the class who was bold and capable, so a fall not totally out of the question].
So it's a lot of trust in the instructor's judgement, which is a bit worrying as a parent when you know your kid's temperaments - my other son would I am sure demonstrate perfect belay technique, but the instructor doesn't know he has the attention span of a goldfish.
Of course if every kid needs the rope fed out by the instructor then there's no lesson.
can he step in in the event of a fall?
He might have been holding the dead rope, or had another kid holding it or have put a knot in the dead rope as a fail safe.
Your argument here is along the lines of “what if I lose concentration, let go of the wheel and drive into that tree”. Seatbelts won’t help you much more than a grigri will.
But cars have seatbelts (which do very obviously help), airbags, crumple zones, lane drift warnings, automatic hazard detection and braking, blind spot warnings etc etc. All put in to mitigate the effects of a mistake elsewhere.
Your argument is nonsense. Everywhere we look, measures are taken to make things safer *when someone makes a mistake*. People wear hard hats on building sites in case someone drops a brick or a hammer. Would you tell builders to simply hold on to their hammers better?
...anyway, never mind all this technical stuff. The main thing is that the best belayer is the one having most fun.
The main thing is that the best belayer is the one having most fun.
Dunno about that. I would say its the one paying attention and then having fun after that.
At least if I am the one being belayed. Otherwise I would agree with you.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">But cars have seatbelts (which do very obviously help), airbags, crumple zones, lane drift warnings, automatic hazard detection and braking, blind spot warnings etc etc. All put in to mitigate the effects of a mistake elsewhere.</span>
and yet people still die when they drive into trees whilst experienced belayers don't ever drop their partner by not belaying correctly (all sorts of other ways for things to go wrong climbing, but the one you're worried about only happens with people who are inexperienced). The thing is letting go of the dead rope is somewhat different to other "mistakes" you mention - the dead rope doesn't just slip out of your hand, not when you're concentrating which is what you do when you're belaying.
The issue here is that a grigri doesn't provide the complete protection you seem to think it does, but it does provide a false sense of security - I'm not concerned that I'll ever let go of the rope, the difference is skill and experience and you're better off getting some training if you're not sure rather than relying on tech.
Meanwhile there are real downsides to anything other than the standard way of doing things.
Your argument is nonsense.
I fear it's your extended analogy that is nonsense. We do all those things in cars and on building sites (PPE, airbags etc) AND we encourage people to behave more safely because avoiding an accident is better than mitigating the effects. Climbing is exactly the same, we have kit to mitigate the outcome of an accident (helmets, ropes belay devices) AND we encourage people to behave more safely. None of your examples from other spheres of life are failsafes and belaying is not fail-safe either.
The issue here is that a grigri doesn’t provide the complete protection you seem to think it does
Well if you scroll back you'll see I said this more than once, so you're wrong - I don't think it provides complete protection.
but it does provide a false sense of security
Well no, because I know it doesn't provide complete protection, as stated 🙂
I’m not concerned that I’ll ever let go of the rope, the difference is skill and experience
So - every other skilled person takes precautions in case they make a mistake - but not climbers. Cos climbers never make mistakes, do they? So why is half the thread talking about belayers making mistakes and showing poor technique?
Safety comes from knowledge of the risks and correct use of the equipment.
Also on building sites, safety come from not dropping hammers. And yet... people still drop hammers, so people wear hard hats.
I cannot understand this situation at all.The situation is totally bonkers.
Would you mind answering my question about what you consider to be a massive flaw?
Mistakes never happen? First few hits on Google:
https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/4ptez3/accident_at_the_gym_last_night_raises_some_safety/
https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/4fie8h/belay_partner_nearly_caused_me_to_deck_advice/
So, mistakes DO happen after all. It's absurd to simply say 'do it properly' because anyone can make a mistake. No-one is perfect, not even you aracer. At some point you will make one, if you are lucky it will not be at the same time when your partner falls.
And yes, one of these stories involves a Grigri. I'm not saying they are failsafe (again). I'm saying that no-one's bothered about developing a technique or equippment that is failsafe.
Would you mind answering my question about what you consider to be a massive flaw?
It's the same as I have been going on about this whole time. The flaw is that one mistake by a belayer can cost a climber his or her life. Fumble the rope - bang. Pull the lever at the wrong time - bang. Take your hand off it at the wrong moment - bang. There's no second line.
Google turns up loads of results for belayers dropping climbers.
So – every other skilled person takes precautions in case they make a mistake – but not climbers.
You're not getting it are you? The rope and belay device IS the precaution. To continue with your rather unhelpful analogy, have you installed a rally style harness in your car instead of a seatbelt to make it safer? It would make it safer but I'm willing to bet you haven't done this. Why? Because you think that the existing precautions are adequate to mitigate the risk and the rally style set up would be very costly and have a negative impact on useability. There might be ways to make belaying safer but they could impact on useability and most climbers think existing methods are adequate.
It's also wrong to say that climbers aren't worried about this. Lots of companies have looked into this and a simple self locking device that also releases under load in a controlled fashion and pays out easily when needed would be a big seller. But some of those requirements are almost contradictory so it has proven difficult to do.
^ that huge article has a fundamental belaying mistake alluded to in it.
The fact that it is expected to only have one hand on belay. Where possible, I have two, and locked off firmly.
also:
Do we know diameter and make of rope in the ATC? Small ropes and certain brands (or new ropes) are much slippier, especially in a low drag belay device.
An ATC Guide often has barely enough friction IME. Only when firmly held in lock off position does it hold.
This was a lead climb - how much slack was out and between plate and hand?
The little lemons are lining up here - the fall is the final third lemon in a line that meant that a ground fall occurred. A slip, a burning hand, and belayer cannot hold the fall.
Edit: you also miss the *billions* of safe climbs that are not listed on the Internet...
The rope and belay device IS the precaution.
When climbing, yes, but not when being lowered off. Of course I get this.
But my point is that as safety equipment it's not good enough.
Lots of companies have looked into this and a simple self locking device that also releases under load in a controlled fashion and pays out easily when needed would be a big seller. But some of those requirements are almost contradictory so it has proven difficult to do
Ok. So you admit that it's an issue, but no-one's been able to solve it so far. Maybe I'll have a go at a solution then!
But given that most climbers think traditional equippment is perfectly ok, and in fact get annoyed when you point out it's not - I am not convinced it would in fact be a big seller.
There is a relatively straightforward solution to Molgrip's predicament. Only go to walls that have autobelays, although even they are not totally failsafe and still require the user to clip in correctly.
I've also seen a ground fall in the Peak due to a leader not getting enough slack to clip a piece of protection. The belayer was fumbling with a GriGri type device, and the slack just wouldn't pay out. The fall was now far enough, with enough slack, that the leader partially pulled the only piece of gear and hit the rock on the floor with feet...
But given that most climbers think traditional equippment is perfectly ok, and in fact get annoyed when you point out it’s not – I am not convinced it would in fact be a big seller.
That's clearly bollocks because if it was true we'd all still be using waist belays.
Auto belay...although even they are not totally failsafe
Yes, don't look up the HSE enquiries about those things....
that huge article has a fundamental belaying mistake alluded to in it.
Yep - that's my point. Mistakes are made, but in that situation the equipment does nothing.
Let's think about this for a minute. How about a device with two rollers and a friction clutch that you clamp on the live rope and fix to your harness or the tie in loop. It's got a ratchet, so the rope can go in through it as fast as you want - but it'll only pay the rope out at a certain speed. Like an auto-belay, basically.
Could be quite useful in a sport situation, no?
So you admit that it’s an issue,
And I assume you'll now be off to install rally seatbelts in your car and purchase crash helmets for the family just to be consistent about the whole issue of safety equipment that isn't up to scratch?
but it’ll only pay the rope out at a certain speed. Like an auto-belay, basically.
Just use an autobelay then, why bother having a person on it? What you describe would be useless for leading unless you could override the clutch to pay out and then you're back to user error square one...
Thinking about this from another angle molgrips, if you want to remove all risk of a belayer dropping their climber you need to eliminate human error which means eliminating humans. Autobelays (almost) do this so that's you sorted for a top roping scenario.
In other situations, the safety of the climber absolutely relies on the human in the system and their judgement. Do I pay out rope fast or slow? Do I go for a quick catch (to avoid them hitting a ledge say) or something more dynamic (to reduce impact on runners)? A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.
The reason most walls/instructors/outdoor centres teach with traditional belay devices is that they assume people will progress to other disciplines than top roping and so want to build experience with those devices. If that's not your intention then crack on with the autobelays.
Just use an autobelay then, why bother having a person on it?
Cos there's usually only a couple at a climbing wall. If there were an autobelay on ever route, then of course you'd not use a human. You could both be climbing.
A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.
Indeed, but it would still have a use when top roping. Which a lot of people do...
Sure it makes sense to practice the more dangerous techniques, but there's not much point in deliberately using them when you have a better alternative. If you have one, that is.
And I assume you’ll now be off to install rally seatbelts in your car and purchase crash helmets for the family just to be consistent about the whole issue of safety equipment that isn’t up to scratch?
I assume that what you're crudely and annoyingly trying to say is that certain safety equipment might come with unacceptable downsides. Of course that's true. But it doesn't invalidate my point. I believe a device that will lock itself in some situations is better than one that never locks itself. And in the case of Grigri, I don't think there is a penalty. They are quite easy to use. The SRC on the other hand is more of a pain to pay out.
And in the case of Grigri, I don’t think there is a penalty. They are quite easy to use.
I'd respectfully suggest that if you believe that you don't really understand how grigri's work. Myself and others up this thread have pointed out the issues with them in quite a lot of detail.
Hang on. Not sure you understand what I meant.
I mean there is no penalty in terms of ease of use. They are as easy to use as an ATC.
They don't auto-lock in every situation, as I've said over and over again. But they do auto lock in some situations, more than an ATC does.
Is any of that wrong?
A mistake by a climber is a risk not a flaw. As Matt says, for the majority of accidents you need several mistakes to line up for the accident to occur.
Recognising that there is a risk and implementing techniques to lessen it is fine. There's also a risk that the technique will fail but you need both technique and backup to fail for an accident to occur.
In thirty years of climbing from the Peak grit edges to mountain crags to the Alps to the Himalaya I am honestly struggling to recall any accident either where I was present or among my peers where the belayer dropped the climber. That's not to say it can't/doesn't happen but it really is a minimal risk.
I never liked being belayed by someone using a GriGri - it allowed the belayer's mind to wander rather than paying attention to me climbing.
As I noted in an earlier post all belay devices will auto-lock in some circumstances.
Is any of that wrong?
Yes.
I mean there is no penalty in terms of ease of use. They are as easy to use as an ATC.
They are more complex to set up and easier to set up wrong. Putting the rope through a belay plate the wrong way round will still give a functional belay, doing this with a grigri will not. Lowering a climber on a grigri requires much more judgement and skill as you need to do different things with each hand and control the speed of descent with one hand on the cam which is difficult to get right and the other hand on the dead rope. It is easy to open the cam right up and lose control of the dead rope as there is so little friction in the system in this situation and you only have one hand on the dead rope as opposed to two (usually) with an ATC.
They don’t auto-lock in every situation, as I’ve said over and over again.
Which really puts you back in the situation you were so worried about in the first place, that of a lack of failsafe.
But they do auto lock in some situations, more than an ATC does.
I mentioned this up thread. A fully open grigri with no hand on the dead rope (a worst case panic scenario) has far less friction in it than an ATC with no hand on the dead rope. You'll hit the ground much harder with the grigri than the ATC in that situation.
Which really puts you back in the situation you were so worried about in the first place, that of a lack of failsafe.
Indeed. Which is why I am still worried about it despite owning a Grigri. You'll notice that I didn't say 'a Grigri solves the problem'.
I'm not overly worried about installing the rope incorrectly. I can do that carefully and methodically under no pressure, I can verify that it's been done correctly, and then it's done for the rest of the climb. I can't accidentally un-install the rope correctly.
A fully open grigri with no hand on the dead rope (a worst case panic scenario) has far less friction in it than an ATC with no hand on the dead rope.
I once saw someone come within a foot of the deck right in front of me. It was a school group, and the climber was a slip of a girl, 40kgs worth at most. She did free fall until the rope speed created enough friction to lock the device. They just laughed it off and the instructor never knew. I should've said something to him/her.
You might be right in the case of kids - the ropes are so rough in the climbing wall and my kids are so light that I have to lift up the dead rope to get them to come down at any rate. However, if it were me climbing, I think that situation might be reversed. It would be interesting to test this.
However one key advantage of the Grigri is that once it's locked, it stays locked. If you let go of the handle whilst descending normally, the climber stops.
it allowed the belayer’s mind to wander rather than paying attention to me climbing.
No - the climber is the only thing that allows his mind to wander. You should treat a Grigri as any other belay device. I've never heard anyone being told otherwise. My mind has wandered when belaying people (when I was much much younger) but I wasn't using a Grigri.
Recognising that there is a risk and implementing techniques to lessen it is fine.
But looking for gear that minimises it isn't fine?
The flaw is still that the equipment isn't fail-safe. It's fail-dangerous.
Just the same flaw then as all bike and car brakes, they are fail-dangerous. So are you going to stop using any such vehicle? Air brakes as fitted to lorries are fail-safe however.
A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.
Quite.
On more than one occasion I've leapt backwards and squatted down to quickly take out slack when someone's slipped whilst attempting to clip during a lead. On one occasion that action almost certainly stopped them from decking (it was like their second clip). If you can design a belay device that can do this you're going to be very rich.
I mean there is no penalty in terms of ease of use. They are as easy to use as an ATC.
I covered this a couple of pages back. They're as easy to use - arguably easier - than an ATC but also far easier to use catastrophically badly.
However one key advantage of the Grigri is that once it’s locked, it stays locked. If you let go of the handle whilst descending normally, the climber stops.
One key disadvantage is if an inexperienced belayer panics, they may swing harder on the handle. Ever locked up the wheels when braking in a car in the days before ABS? What does every instinct in your body tell you to do with the brake pedal when you aren't slowing down?
I like the Gri-Gri, and as I said before I prefer it to a regular belay device for all the reasons you've mentioned. But like the bowline it is not, no way no how, a beginner's tool. If you haven't mastered traditional belaying then you shouldn't even be thinking about using one (not least because it forgives lazy belaying habits that could prove fatal if you then moved back to a regular device).
I'd always favour a device where you have to work harder to pay out/take in slack on the basis that the trade-off is that you have to work a lot harder to create a situation where the rope will run through easily and the climber decks out. This is even more the case now that ropes are thinner and slicker.
I never noticed a problem with paying out rope using an unsprung sticht plate, although it undeniably takes more effort and anticipation on the part of the belayer. But as has been said above, I prefer a belayer to have to focus on the leader more intensely, rather than have a device which allows slack to flow through with little attention and effort.
And the obvious payoff for using an 'old-fashioned' device is that the default position is locked off, with the hand on the dead rope as a further back-up.
One key disadvantage is if an inexperienced belayer panics, they may swing harder on the handle.
Doesn't seem llikely to me, but whatever - I'm not selling it as a beginner's device.
I'd also say an ATC is easy to use catastrophically badly.
I've also seen people doing all sorts of bad things, not paying attention etc - with all sorts of belay devices. The first half of the thread is you lot complaining about exactly that.
Our assessment of risks only comes from our experience. Molgrips you are refusing some of the possibilities as unlikely, but only as you haven't seen the risk become an incident.
For five years I had 4x GriGri, 4x 'normal' belay plates and 4x Italian/munter hitches in action, 6 days a week, by two dozen various instructors and a few thousand learners across a wall, high ropes, crate climb, abseils, natural climbs leading and top roping. If and when an incident (including near misses and concerns) happened they were explored in detail, recorded and shared. We were keen to understand whys, often way beyond the systems used were influences. I would suggest that this experience has given me more of an understanding of climbing risks than most.
I think your desire for a safer way of doing things is reflected by the various auto-blocking devices such as GriGri. Climbers do change - they are not as archaic as you seem to suggest. However introducing new techniques and products comes with challenges. They are to be used for more than top roping. They are to work in wet and mud. They have to work with various rope diameters and finishes. They have to be able to withstand muppetry in use and storage. This means they are all a compromise, all have strengths and shortcomings.
For your situation (top roping, indoors, usually 11-12mm ropes) a GriGri can offer some extra holding assurance. Please don't mistake this for safer - because my experience says they do on occasion not work, cause issues paying out or lowering, cause complexity (have you got it on the correct edge for example, or did that old stiff rope kink and go over on it?) and all this takes your eyes and sometimes mind off the climber. That said, while everything is running smoothly, the GriGri can help.
My concern is the day your lemons line up, and you are glancing down at the belay when something happens.... Unlikely, but possible.
Ok so you can miss something and cock up when using a Grigri. But you can also do same with an ATC, right?
Here's another scenario - you're out on the crag leading, and you grab a hold and a large ish chunk of rock falls off in your hand. Your gear is ok, but the rock hits your belayer on the head and stuns her momentarily. Or she raises her hands instinctively to protect herself.
You've got more chance with an SRC or some other self braking device, no?
Climbers do change – they are not as archaic as you seem to suggest.
You could be right - googling the subject returns lots of interesting and informed discussion (even on forums) debating the merits of the different devices and surprisingly little 'stop your blethering you'll be fine just don't make a mistake' as we've seen on this thread.
I'd be interested in your conclusions and statistics, matt, as I'm sure the rest of the climbing community would be.
Speaking of which - I like the look of the Grigri+
I’d also say an ATC is easy to use catastrophically badly.
Yeah, but. Using an ATC badly, you'd spot that quickly in their technique and be able to intercept / correct their behaviour before it became an issue. Using a Gri-Gri incorrectly can potentially only occur at the point a fall occurs, by which point it's a bit late.
Your gear is ok, but the rock hits your belayer on the head and stuns her momentarily.
She's belaying outdoors where this is a real risk - why isn't she wearing a lid? That's not a belay device issue.
According to this abstract
The German Alpine club recommend using assisted braking devices.
why isn’t she wearing a lid
She is, and that's the reason she's only stunned and not killed.
Using a Gri-Gri incorrectly can potentially only occur at the point a fall occurs, by which point it’s a bit late.
Exactly as it can with an ATC. You can fumble a rope any time.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
Indeed, but it would still have a use when top roping. Which a lot of people do…
I note that neither of the accidents you found involved top roping.
And in the case of Grigri, I don’t think there is a penalty. They are quite easy to use.
They are quite easy to use wrong. One of your accidents was using one and it's trivial to find more examples. They don't solve the problem - given your concerns about your inexperience, there is a better solution to that than a different device which is to get some training. 3:40 in the video I linked up there.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
However one key advantage of the Grigri is that once it’s locked, it stays locked.
5:10 in the video I linked earlier. Please tell me you've actually watched that video?
[i]Cougar wrote:[/i]
I like the Gri-Gri, and as I said before I prefer it to a regular belay device for all the reasons you’ve mentioned. But like the bowline it is not, no way no how, a beginner’s tool. If you haven’t mastered traditional belaying then you shouldn’t even be thinking about using one (not least because it forgives lazy belaying habits that could prove fatal if you then moved back to a regular device).
Cougar talks a lot of sense here. This is the fundamental issue - it appears you're wanting to use one because you're not confident in your technique.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Here’s another scenario – you’re out on the crag leading, and you grab a hold and a large ish chunk of rock falls off in your hand. Your gear is ok, but the rock hits your belayer on the head and stuns her momentarily. Or she raises her hands instinctively to protect herself.</span>
You’ve got more chance with an SRC or some other self braking device, no?
You have identified the one major advantage here. Yes, in this situation an auto-locking device is helpful. But then that doesn't appear to be what you are talking about doing.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
According to this abstract
ALPENVEREIN.DE
/a>
The German Alpine club recommend using assisted braking devices.
Ahem, did you read the whole of it? A couple of quotes:
Assisted braking obviously also involves disadvantages: handling the assisted braking belay devices is more complicated than with manual belay devices. In order to give out rope from the belay device quickly, safely, and easily without the device blocking the rope, more or less complex movements are required (e.g. th so-called “Gaswerk-Method” for the Grigri). This is at the expense of safety
Doesn't sound like something for a beginner does it?
I note you're particularly concerned about lowering:
In climbing gyms operated by the German Alpine Club, in the period from 2012 to 2014, 20% of all falls to the ground which required an emergency ambulance occurred during lowering! Representing 50% of the accident cases assisted braking belay devices are involved disproportionately (approx. 40%) in their increase
Cougar talks a lot of sense here.
Had to happen sooner or later. (-: Thank you.
Exactly as it can with an ATC. You can fumble a rope any time.
I'm starting to think that you're dropping into your standard 'devils advocate' fence-up-your-arse forum default here now.
You can fumble a rope at any time, of course. But a failure in user operation of an ATC-type device would be massively unlucky if you've demonstrated correct control throughout a belay session and just happened to have a wobble at the precise moment a climber took a fall. A failure with a Gri-Gri doesn't have that quality control and therefore prediction, you don't have the same degree of preception. The only time you find out whether you're really in control is when you suddenly have to be. With a conventional belay device you always have to be in complete control and the second you aren't it's immediately obvious to even a passing observer, with a Gri you can belay whilst eating a sandwich. Which is fine until the point where it isn't.
don't think that Grigri's were ever intended to assist those lacking in belaying skills or attention when toproping at the climbing wall - my historical perspective would be they were developed to fill a need for belayers to be able to hold resting leaders and lower leaders practising moves when redpointing on sports climbs and the device is great for this
have seen ground falls at the wall with grigri's and have put this down to it being very easy to get lazy with how you feed the rope when the leader is clipping - not used the mk2 or the + so no real input other than they are modifications to make the product (slightly) safer for less experienced belayers to use
subject came up recently when visiting local to me (down under) wall with old climbing partner from UK and think he told me that like the wall here Grigri's had been banned at his local wall (wall here uses ATC's permanently on the rope attached back to ground anchors for top roping)
incidentally sung the praises of the Eldred OHM
[url] http://www.walltoys.com.au/Climbing/belay/devices/edelrid-ohm [/url]
as he is a lot heavier than his wife and found works very well - if looking for assistance in belaying then probably makes more sense than a grigri
If the clip is precarious and you risk decking it/hurting yourself if you topple off the obvious answer is to climb on a double. The belayer leaves lots of slack on the second rope and only takes in when you've made the clip. In the example below my next clip is about a metre above my head and the clip is made while trying not to barn door off.
Having a second who is a good sprinter is better than having someone capable of taking in quickly IME. Make sure they've got somewhere to run.
Gri gri is only certified down to 8.9mm rope diameter. From personal experience when you’re using it with ropes around the smaller dia, especially newer rope that hasn’t furred up it takes mire load to ‘lock’ it.
The cam in the Gri gri (or Gri gri 2) will allow rope through even when the handle is not pulled as the cam isn’t sprung it relies on a load on the rope to lock it. Again, personal experience as a 85kg adult with a full load of rope access kit on my harness adding a fair bit more using a Gri Gri for work positioning (holding me in towards the wall to counteract the forces when drilling) is that without loading the device it tends to creep. That’s why the Grillon adjustable lanyard has a sprung cam to default it to the locked position despite looking to all intents & purposes identical.
The newest version of the Gri Gri has one important improvement. It has a selectable spring cam, which pushes the cam towards the locked position like the Grillon does. Much safer especially with children on the end of the rope.
All that said, my personal opinion is that locking belay devices are a great aid but no substitute for good technique and they often mask bad technique and promote bad belay habits. I say that as a climber of 25 or more years who also uses self locking descenders (ID & RIG mainly) pretty much every day for work. I belay with an ATC & taught my wife to do the same.
Lots of very interesting human factors/error management chat on this thread! I guess it boils down to whether locking systems introduce complexities or difficulties in use that mean that, in real-world use, the flawed human in the system takes a shortcut which makes them MORE dangerous than a conventional device? Seen all the time in aviation where the “safer” procedure or equipment wasn’t followed/used because it was a pain in the arse!
I used to use a GriGri for sport climbing and (string me up) I would hold the cam down when the leader needed rapid slack, because it was a PITA otherwise. I had self-briefed action on a fall, but I think an ATC would probably have been safer! Though not as good for holding him on his many rests.....
@airtragic - that's the point really isn't it? Each device has strengths and weaknesses and not every device is suitable for every situation. If you mainly sports climb and have to lock-off the climber while they work the route then GriGri type devices are preferable. If you mainly climb trad on double ropes then GriGris don't work (unless there's a twin/double rope version now) so the ATC type belay plate are preferable. In winter on snow/ice climbs then a waist belay tends to be better as it imparts a lower braking force so if the leader does fall then there's less shock on the protection (assumes that the leader doesn't fall so far they hit a ledge or the deck), frozen ropes don't help mechanical devices either.
A lot of the scenarios being presented as examples of a fundamental flaw in the system are very much edge cases: the case of letting go when lowering someone being a case in point - you've got hold of the dead rope already, it's not like you are being caught off-guard by the climber falling. If someone comes over to have a chat you just tell them to wait until the climber is safely on the ground and your attention should be on them.
As noted earlier, if there was a lightweight, simple to use device that was absolutely fail-safe then the likes of DMM, Wild Country, Petzl, etc would be all over it.
Pick one, practice it, make it automatic ...but not so automatic you get complacent. It's always the human that goes wrong in the system and we all have the capacity to be dicks. Started 17, now 50-something. Few years ago I belayed my mate to the top of the wall, took his weight at the clips ...and realised I'd threaded the Grigri the wrong way. I was the dick that day. Take whatever learning you want from that.
my personal opinion is that locking belay devices are a great aid but no substitute for good technique and they often mask bad technique and promote bad belay habits.
Agreed. That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier, only I think you've just worded it much more clearly.
Started 17, now 50-something. Few years ago I belayed my mate to the top of the wall, took his weight at the clips …and realised I’d threaded the Grigri the wrong way. I was the dick that day. Take whatever learning you want from that.
Yup, experience is no barrier to having a brain fart, as Molgrips was saying. It can actually make you worse if complacency creeps in! I believe one of the worst scenarios is being experienced but out of practice and currency, ie me!
So it's a flaw of Grigris that poor use can be dangerous, but it's an advantage of an ATC that poor use can be dangerous?
Everything needs the right technique. But an assisted braking device in principle provides more safety in more situations. I do not like the fact that a climber's safety is only in that one single hand around the dead rope. Another layer of security (not an alternative layer - an EXTRA layer) can't be a bad thing imo. It's a bit silly to blame an assisted belay device for a person's mistakes, when any device can be used with mistakes. Just different ones.
[reads thread title - jumps straight to end]
imo Grigris allow the possibility of bad/lazy technique more than traditional belay devices. They suit working sport routes well, but it's these sort of situations where the belayer might lose attention. I've seen some unnecessarily long falls caused by bad/lazy Grigri use. ( no-one decked, lots of swearing and lots of apologising from the belayer type falls).
I would hold the cam down when the leader needed rapid slack, because it was a PITA otherwise
This sort of thing.
@molgrips - go and try this; put on your harness and attach an ATC/Betterbrake/belay plate to the belay loop. Uncoil your rope on the ground next to you. Now set up the belay device a few metres from the end of the rope. At this point you should be in the situation where if someone tied in to the end of the rope they could start to lead. Loosely knot something on the live rope just in front of your belay device as a marker - a piece of cloth will do. Now get someone strong to grab the live end of the rope. What they are going to do is suddenly pull as hard as they can to simulate a lead fall so you'll need to brace yourself for this. Do not hold the dead rope, concentrate on not getting pulled over.
Let your helper sharply pull the rope, you'll notice that the device locks very quickly without your hand on the dead rope, the knotted marker will show how much rope has fed through before it locked.
If you really must then something like a Petzl Shunt on the dead rope and clipped to the leg loop is as close as you are going to get but IMO it's more trouble than it's worth.
So it’s a flaw of Grigris that poor use can be dangerous, but it’s an advantage of an ATC that poor use can be dangerous?
Are you not reading / understanding what's being said, or are you just being disingenuous in order to have an argument?