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I have a harness like this:
Now, I was taught to always tie into the belt and the crotch loop bit, but there's really not that much room in this one plus the belt is a bit flimsy. Surely it's ok to tie into the belay loop?
I'm about to take my kids to the climbing wall. It's been a long time since I last went...
Best practice is still to tie through the tie in points (ie follow where the belay loop runs). Looks to be enough space on the pic linked.
No - tie through both. 2 points of failure in the harness then and space for your belay and bina.
In reality for a climbing wall it probably doesn't matter so much.. but I'd never do it as it's a bad habit to form.
It may be O.K. but I'd only tie in as you are supposed to. When things go wrong climbing they go wrong quickly and badly. I wouldn't tie into the belay loop especially when someone I loved was on the other end.
Gives all the acceptable tie-in methods. The wall you're visiting may also have its own approved method, check their t&cs.
Ah, thanks martinhutch.
Think I may have to replace some old carabiniers but my belay devices look ok.
Do what my missus did (she is a bit absent minded sometimes but has done a lot of climbing) and just krab into the gear loop. Luckily she didn't fall! Mind you she weighs nothing so probably would have been OK on a tight rope 🙂
Gives all the acceptable tie-in methods. The wall you’re visiting may also have its own approved method, check their t&cs.
Interesting. 8b shows it's OK to tie on to the loop. I wouldn't though, I've always tied around the waist loop and sit loop. I never belayed off solely the belay loop either, I always clipped into the rope(s) as well as as the loop. Might be overkill but I'm alive.
Still, top roping on a wall I think you are OK for belaying off the loop alone.
Outdoors I'd do it "properly" - half figure-of-eight, through both loops, finish the knot, stopper.
Indoors, meh, I'd overhand a full f-o-8 & stopper and then screwgate it to the belay loop. Life's too short when you're doing multiple short runs, and it's exactly the same as what's going on at the other end.
Its called a belay loop for a reason.
The BMC got handed a report a number of years ago showing just how stupid it is to tie in through both parts of the harness over its lifetime.
They ignored it.
Petzl told them not to do it.
They ignored it.
And other manufacturers told them not to do it.
And they.....
Yet every single climbing wall, adventure centre, etc will do an overhand eight and a screwgate biner when they have 20+ kids/adults to put through a course or whatever.
But will tell you that you must tie in through the harness because you must abide by the BMC rules.
Apparently its about "removing possible weak links" in the chain.
They forget that the belay loop is at least 44Kn - twice the strength of the two parts they tell you to tie in through.......
And tieing in is inducing fibre on fibre wear which is increased with nylon self propagating heat.....
@regenesis - so why do Petzl reinforce both parts of the the harness at the tie-in points to reduce fraying from the rope? And if Petzl told them not to do it then why do they show the very same technique on their website?
It's called a "belay loop" for a good reason - it's what you clip the belaying device into.
I used to pass the ropes through both tie-in points before tying a Bowline with stopper in each. I used the Fo8 until my first large leader fall ...
They forget that the belay loop is at least 44Kn – twice the strength of the two parts they tell you to tie in through…….
... that is directly attached to the two parts they tell you to tie through anyway. If the tie-in loops are going to fail, using something other than the rope as an intermediary connection to the waist / crotch loops isn't going to make anything stronger.
I don't know much about the rest of your post, though your final point about increased wear from fibre-on-fibre makes a lot of sense. But I can't see how the relative strength of the belay loop is of any relevance whatsoever (unless it was less rather than more). A system is only as strong as its weakest part.
Oh, and,
If the belay loop is twice as strong as the tie-in parts, and you're spreading the load equally over the two tie-in loops, the breaking force overall is the same is it not?
[i]Cougar wrote:[/i]
They forget that the belay loop is at least 44Kn – twice the strength of the two parts they tell you to tie in through…….
… that is directly attached to the two parts they tell you to tie through anyway. If the tie-in loops are going to fail, using something other than the rope as an intermediary connection to the waist / crotch loops isn’t going to make anything stronger.
Indeed - no good reason to use the belay loop and add another potential point of failure. Like slowoldman, when belaying outdoors and tied into the rope I'll belay off both rope and belay loop as well (and like whitestone I now use a bowline to tie in for lead climbing - spend far too much time waiting for people who've taken a lead fall on a retied 8 to untie).
If you think the belay loop won't fail then you're probably not aware of Todd Skinner's death https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/
I don’t know much about the rest of your post, though your final point about increased wear from fibre-on-fibre makes a lot of sense.
Not particularly - because fibre on fibre wear mainly relates to fibre running over fibre under load - if you're just threading it through then there really isn't any significant wear (and the belay loop itself should be between the rope and the tie in points helping to prevent any wear). Any heat issues are also related to running across under load and at speed - you're not going to get any noticeable heating from tieing in (if you did, then forming the knot would be far more of an issue!)
That's a very confused post regenesis. Some of it is ambiguous and some of it plain wrong to the extent that I'm not really sure where to start with it.
But I'll start with this: where is this report you mention about the dangers of tying in through leg loops and waist belt? The one the BMC supposedly ignored?
From your link, Cougar:
"" To wit: On October 19, while they racked up, Hewett had noticed Skinner’s leg loops looking worn out, as well as Skinner’s belay loop, which he says was “15 to 20 percent” frayed. “I very much stressed to him that that’s not good,” says Hewett. “Todd said, ‘You’re right. I’ve got a new harness on the way.’” "
It doesn't matter if you tie into the belay loop, or both legs and waist, just make sure your harness and rope look OK and aren't too old.
It doesn’t matter if you tie into the belay loop, or both legs and waist, just make sure your harness and rope look OK and aren’t too old.
It probably doesn't matter too much for the odd bit of top roping but it does matter for leading.
I'm keen to the reports and manufacturers recommendations on this.
Ignore what centres and instructors do - half the images I see at centres and walls is ''wrong" according to best practice.
My local wall in Stirling asks people "which of the four images of tying in is correct?". My answer of "none" is backed up by a mountain guide, an MIA holder and ex head of safety for Mountaineering Scotland, yet 8 years later they use the same images...
The only reason it matters is psychological not logical.
Anyhow this is bad practice:
" pass the ropes through both tie-in points before tying a Bowline "
because a bowline weakens the rope more than a figure of eight.
And you'll find the same pepole teliing you not to tie in to the belay loop leading on a couple of RPs on a single rope. (winky) The belay loop is never the weakest link in any fall. (no winky)
@Edukator - Yes the Bowline weakens the rope more, by approximately 5% so that's a difference in breaking strength of 1kN. A 9mm rope has an approximate breaking strength of 21kN, with a Bowline that reduces to roughly 12kN. Even a fall factor 2 fall on a short length of rope won't generate that level of force so it's a moot point.
The reason the Bowline is sometimes regarded as bad practice is that it needs to be held in tension otherwise there's the possibility that it can invert. This is why it should always be fixed with a stopper knot set against the back of the knot.
Another reason is that some people don't know if it's tie correctly, these tend to be found patrolling climbing walls. (wink)
[i]Edukator wrote:[/i]
From your link, Cougar:
My link - but the point is that belay loops can and do fail - clearly in that particular incident he was clipped to the belay loop with a krab which was normal for what he was doing, but had he been leading and taken a fall there's a good chance he'd have been OK if he'd tied in through the tie in points but would have died if he'd used the belay loop. If you read the whole of just that article (there are plenty more articles on Todd's death, it was a very well reported incident) you'll also see there's a suggestion that the belay loop had got particularly worn due to what he'd been doing just before and the damage wasn't actually visible, hence it might have been a problem even with a harness which didn't look worn. Though in that case, one other lesson is not to attach fibre straight to fibre for what he was doing with ascenders where regensis's concerns do come into play (I have to admit I do use a larksfooted sling to clip in when building belays or rethreading at the top on a sport route, but that's somewhat different and not causing the same sort of wear).
[i]Edukator wrote:[/i]
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Anyhow this is bad practice:</span>
” pass the ropes through both tie-in points before tying a Bowline ”
because a bowline weakens the rope more than a figure of eight.
We did this one in a previous thread of molly's - the difference isn't significant http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope-hold.html
From your link, Cougar:
I don;'t recall posting a link, but the advice not to climb on buggered gear is sound.
because a bowline weakens the rope more than a figure of eight.
Most climbers use a Fo8 rather than a bowline because whilst a bowline is better in many ways it's also much easier to tie badly. It's harder to get a Fo8 wrong. I'd respectfully suggest that consistency and reliability is paramount here.
If you're tying in with a bowline then you - hopefully - know the pros and cons and know how to tie it correctly. I broadly know how to tie a bowline but I personally wouldn't climb on one because I'm not convinced yet that I could do it safely and consistently.
I was always told to use a bowline for winter climbing as it’s easier to undo with cold hands! To be honest I was never that familiar with it, so after a while just went back to fo8 as it is second nature to me (may not be a good thing!).
At the wall I always tie into the waist loops rather than a closed fo8 clipped to the belay loop, again really just because it’s what I’ve always done, and I prefer the consistency. I think the most important thing is to be aware of what you’re doing - in most cases it is the very simple things that hurt people!
[i]whitestone wrote:[/i]
The reason the Bowline is sometimes regarded as bad practice is that it needs to be held in tension otherwise there’s the possibility that it can invert. This is why it should always be fixed with a stopper knot set against the back of the knot.
Another reason is that some people don’t know if it’s tie correctly, these tend to be found patrolling climbing walls. (wink)
I use a Yosemite finish on mine - which does admittedly have the issue of making the problem of inspection worse, because it's pretty much impossible to tell without very close inspection whether it's tied correctly or the loops are laid in the wrong order (which potentially results in the bowline not being a bowline). I don't think I could tell with a glance at somebody else's knot despite using it myself all the time and being aware of the issue.
[i]Cougar wrote:[/i]
If you’re tying in with a bowline then you – hopefully – know the pros and cons and know how to tie it correctly. I broadly know how to tie a bowline but I personally wouldn’t climb on one because I’m not convinced yet that I could do it safely and consistently.
A very sensible attitude - I thought long and hard before switching to it and had practised a lot before I used one in anger - I've had the conversation about it with a few people recently and my advice is always that it's not something I'll recommend to anybody else and whilst I'm happy to show people how to tie it (and I can and will inspect it if somebody wants me to) it's up to them to be sure they know what they're doing before using it.
[i]timbog160 wrote:[/i]
I was always told to use a bowline for winter climbing as it’s easier to undo with cold hands! To be honest I was never that familiar with it, so after a while just went back to fo8 as it is second nature to me (may not be a good thing!).
I don't think I'd even consider using anything else for winter climbing - the difference in ease of untying is significant even with warm hands in a nice environment (the obvious downside to that is obvious!)
Anyway, having touched on the subject of worn gear, that was one of the issues which concerned me with molly's posts (though it may be too late now as I guess he went climbing today - though I note he's not been back...) He mentions needing to replace krabs, but unless I'm missing something he's using a harness which hasn't been used for a long time. Personally I'm still using 25yo krabs - I checked on the advice regarding gear wear when I restarted climbing, and apart from manufacturers having to specify a lifetime on gear all sensible advice seemed to be that metal doesn't deteriorate with age - so I'm not sure what would be wrong with his. However I binned all of my fibre gear, including a couple of harnesses much newer than that - those do deteriorate with age even if in storage.
Of course the other question which nobody else seems to have raised is if he's going climbing with his kids why does he need to tie in at all (I'm assuming they're not going to be belaying him)?
Somewhere in the bottom of a rucksack I still have my first harness - a Whillans! No debate about where to tie in on that one....and if ever there was an encouragement not to fall it was one of those!
I'm so used to tying in with a Bowline - I could tie it correctly with my eyes shut in a blizzard. I didn't use it in any other climbing situation except for tying in.
Whillans' harness - I don't think I ever used one, when I started climbing the Troll Mk 6 had just appeared so used that and its various descendents.
Slight aside about belay loops - in the 1990s there was an accident in the Welsh slate quarries where the harness had "failed" whilst the wearer was abseiling. I turned out that he'd wanted to use a particular set of leg loops with the waist belt but couldn't push them through the belay loop so he unpicked the stitching of the belay loop so that he could fit them and restitched it himself! (multiple shocked emojis) Luckily it failed when he was only about 2 metres above the deck.
I binned all of my fibre gear, including a couple of harnesses much newer than that
Erm... oops.
I really need a new harness, mine's probably early 90s vintage.
Yes I've got an Alpine Bod from about 1990.....
I used hand-sewn slings back in the day, and sewed slings onto ice axes that I used for belaying. No problem if you use the right grade of nylon thread and the appropriate number of stitches. I lived in Spain at the time, a lot of Spanish climbers still made their own stuff. Whilst the modern bolt routes (this was the 80s) had French goujons in them the old ones had flimsy sort of industrial fastenings that looked more suitable for fixing cupboards to walls than climbing on, worrying.
At the wall I use you'd be politely advised to get a new harness before you came back next time (assuming it looks in good enough condition that they'd be happy for you to carry on). Though the manager has a particular thing for harness age, and claims to be able to tell the age of a harness within a few years on sight.
The report was commissioned by Petzl.
They asked Lyon UK to do it due to failures in industrial use of their kit in the UK and increasingly the EU.
Sperian were also involved (Think Troll/Bacou Dalloz/Sperian/Honeywell)
Mainly based around the practice of tying cowtails around the ventral point incorporating the waist and leg loops (as no belay loop on industrial kit). Climbers using the same principal of tying in through the two parts of the harness as they did in the outdoors.
The testing showed massive loss in material strength with very little use.
Nylon needs very little friction to self-propagate heat.
With webbing - that friction across its width gives a greater reduction in strength than an edge cut due to the number of fibres damaged.
Petzl issued an immediate bulletin and continue to do so to this date to not tie in in this manner. Admittedly the report came from the industrial sector however it was passed over to the BMC who told Petzl and Lyon that they knew better and would continue to issue their own guidance.
As for the"belay loop" - thats a misnomer - its a tie in loop/point. Troll actually invented the belay loop.
The primary connection point - its designed to be at least twice the strength of the harness components due to taking the principal forces involved.
22Kn is the minimum breaking strength of any component and most well exceed that. The "belay loop" will be double that because of how it is fabricated.
There's plenty more that can be gone into over this subject - stitch blocks, design, load sensitive elements etc but thats not the point.
Tying in through the two parts of the harness is an antiquated method that came about due to old harness designs - the Whillans to be exact.
[i]regenesis wrote:[/i]
Petzl issued an immediate bulletin and continue to do so to this date to not tie in in this manner.
and yet:
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Tying-in-with-a-figure-8-knot?ActivityName=Rock-climbing
On their Sport range aracer - its specifically reinforced for this however its not their preferred method of connection.
They will still push for a connection to the belay loop - go to any of their symposiums or training seminars and they actively push for it to be removed from use but the likes of the BMC still stipulating it as best practice means they need to allow for the "lowest common denominator".
Quite often someone who is still using a harness from the bottom of their bag bought off a guy at the crag in 1982......
We could bring up cross loading of the carabiner but its a poor argument on the bMC's part to still use what was designed to hold the two parts of a harness together BEFORE the belay loop was invented back in 1978
@regenesis why would Petzl tell people at symposiums to tie in through the belay loop but continue to issue instructions to the contrary?
Industrial harnesses are very different from climbing ones and best practice for one is not necessarily best practice for the other.
The primary connection point – its designed to be at least twice the strength of the harness components due to taking the principal forces involved.
I refer you to my previous comment. A system is as strong as its weakest component, not its strongest.
Alpine Bod!!!!! Blue Peter finds alternative uses for car seat belt 🙂
I might actually have got rid of mine.
🙂 Yep mine's destined for the bin. Especially as it's been used for aid climbing in the Dolomites and stopping my mate falling down a crevassse and rescuing him amongst other things. It has some tales to tell that's for sure.
He mentions needing to replace krabs, but unless I’m missing something he’s using a harness which hasn’t been used for a long time.
I bought a harness ooh, four years ago I think, and used it twice indoors without falling and since then it's been stored in the house in its bag in a dark interior cupboard. I could return it to the shop and get away with it, it's in mint condition. Not going to scrap that.
The one it replaced was also in pretty great condition but it was my first harness I ever bought in 1994. Thought it best to scrap that, despite its fine condition. Forgot the make but they were common at the time - bright blue coloured thing model name Sherpa.
Anyway. No-one died, but then again no-one fell. 8yo daughter managed several tall climbs without fear, which surprised me since she is the biggest mincer you could possibly imagine on the bike. Although it turns out even the easy graded climbs are a lot harder when you're 4'5 tall.
6yo was utterly terrified to let go of the wall, so she'd get to about 8ft high then grab two big hand holds, let her feet go and slither down the slab scraping over every hold as I lowered her off. She got the proper technique lower down though but was too scared to do it higher up. They both want to go back though.
Having re-read his posts it seems fairly clear that what regenesis has done is assumed recommendations for industrial harnesses also apply to climbing harnesses. This doesn't work as the designs and usage are so different.
Tie in how the manufacturer suggests, not how some guy on the internet says!
[i]regenesis wrote:[/i]
On their Sport range aracer – its specifically reinforced for this however its not their preferred method of connection.
As opposed to their industrial range? I'm not sure if you're trying to make some non-existent distinction here, but that advice is part of their general rock climbing advice, which also includes:
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/PARTNER-CHECK?ActivityName=Rock-climbing for example - though if you look through their website at pics and videos you'll see everybody tying in through the tie in points as we're all suggesting here - in fact I challenge you to find a single example on their website of somebody tying in using the belay loop - I didn't spot one. Or go to the tech info on any harness and you'll see the suggested methods either being tying in through the tie in points or using back to back krabs on the belay loop. Meanwhile their harnesses appear to be constructed just like all others are.
Maybe you could point out where on their website they provide this advice you think they consider so important (which all their tech tips and everybody in all of their pics and videos ignore).
We could bring up cross loading of the carabiner
We could, but I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
I bought a harness ooh, four years ago I think, and used it twice indoors without falling and since then it’s been stored in the house in its bag in a dark interior cupboard. I could return it to the shop and get away with it, it’s in mint condition. Not going to scrap that.
No, that's cool - mine is about the same age and has got pretty heavy use - though I'll probably be looking at retiring a lot of my "new" gear this year or next. Apologies for worrying unduly, it seems you're already aware of the need to retire old textiles - I think 10 years is still an acceptable rule of thumb for lifetime of harnesses which have been lightly used and well stored.
Congratulations on the successful climbing trip with your kids though - mine were both quite into it (it was how I got back in as I was going to the wall with them), but they don't seem very interested in going much any more 🙁
I'm still curious though whether you ended up tying in to your harness when belaying your kids?
Good to hear Molgrips. I took my son (9 yo) last weekend for the first time and, despite being a regular in the Alps many years ago, I decided to swallow my pride and ask for a quick refresher from the staff there. They were brilliant (The Barn, just outside Tavistock) and it all came back to me in about 5 seconds.
My lad loved it and it's reignited my passion, just great to be walking around clapping chalk on my hands again.
I do what the manufacturer says in the instructions that come with my gear. I don't do what some stranger on the internet says. I don't do what I see at the crag or wall, I do what the manufacturer says for that specific product.
At the wall I always tie into the waist loops rather than a closed fo8 clipped to the belay loop, again really just because it’s what I’ve always done, and I prefer the consistency.
Always good to have muscle memory that knows the safe thing to do when it's all gone to rat-poo part way up a big climb and you're too stressed to think properly.
I do what the manufacturer says in the instructions that come with my gear. I don’t do what some stranger on the internet says. I don’t do what I see at the crag or wall, I do what the manufacturer says for that specific product.
Likewise. Also loving that having kids is actually pulling folk back into climbing via trips to the wall.
Congratulations on the successful climbing trip with your kids though
Yeah this is quite a big deal with my eldest, as she usually with a new activity she'll encounter some cause for fear or some difficulty and totally give up and never want to go again. But she was totally engaged and committed the whole time, which is brilliant for her. Of course, Daddy doesn't get to climb, but it's ok.
I’m still curious though whether you ended up tying in to your harness when belaying your kids?
I did not. I never used to do this when climbing with my mates at the wall either. I didn't think anything of it until I realised I'd got within a few m of the end of the rope as I was lowering one off, because I'd backed away from the wall.
Pertinent point is what do the climbing center expect - if anyone clocked you tying in in a non approved way regardless of your belief or preference they might well not let you back in.
I take my 6 year old son to the local climbing wall infrequently. It's usually me belaying with him climbing, generally with words of encouragement from me. He doesn't stick to coloured holds etc, just climbs up the wall
I get to have a little go on the autobelays, otherwise I'd be belaying only.
If I'm honest, I've not understood why you use a carabiner on the belay loop and a rope around the waist leg loops, but I just get on with it. Two caveats
1- if I use the autobelay I can only attach with an auto-locking crab so clip that to my belay loop
2- my son uses a full body petzl harness so I tie the rope through both points of that
At our place (Boulders in Cardiff) if you only belay and don't climb then you don't pay. So until they can boulder unsupervised, I won't get to climb.
"Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs – I checked on the advice regarding gear wear when I restarted climbing, and apart from manufacturers having to specify a lifetime on gear all sensible advice seemed to be that metal doesn’t deteriorate with age"
I'd not recommend use any metal gear thats aged in a loaded situation. Metal does deteriorate with age dependant on many thigs. Material, manufacture quality, type of metal, what its been used for, poor care, where its been used etc. I'd suggest we abuse our kit much more than we realize at times.
I keep wires on old krabs but think that I have some metal kit that should be retired before I finally find another use for it. What about 25 year old wires? Would you take a screamer on them? Yes I have but thats because I'm Yorkshire.
I've clipped some ratty old pegs placed in the 50's and not been concerned in the past but I was young then.
Pertinent point is what do the climbing center expect
You're right, but IME their expectations are that you're safe rather than "my way or the highway." If you were tying in with a granny knot through your gear loops they'd have something to say about it (or at least, I'd bloody well hope so).
At climbing walls I've been tying in with a screwgate rather than direct to the harness for donkeys' years. I've been to umpteen walls up and down the country, and not once have I had any of the staff say anything for not tying in "properly."
I’ve not understood why you use a carabiner on the belay loop and a rope around the waist leg loops
It's arguably one less point of failure I suppose, one less thing to potentially go wrong (climbing on an unlocked screwgate crab perhaps), but I don't really understand the obsession with it either. A belay loop and a screwgate are both designed to take climbing forces, you don't thread the rope through your harness when belaying and what's going on on the wall is the same as what's going on on the floor if you fall.
@molgrips - I always used to have a solid knot of some sort tied in to the non-live end of the rope just to stop it running through the belay device as the first you'd know about it was when the end of the rope would slide through the controlling hand. Typically this was when 50m ropes were standard and some of the newer sports routes started being 27 metres high so you'd be able to lower the lead climber back down on rope stretch! 😮 Less of a problem when 60m ropes became standard until 33m pitches appeared!
Most climbing walls I visited simply used to ask at registration if you knew how to tie-in using a recognised knot. It may have changed in the last few years since I stopped climbing. It was the floor walkers who would question the use of the Bowline - I know an amusing tale of one the top UK climbers who was pulled up about it.
[i]matt_outandabout wrote:[/i]
I do what the manufacturer says in the instructions that come with my gear. I don’t do what some stranger on the internet says. I don’t do what I see at the crag or wall, I do what the manufacturer says for that specific product.
Which in the case of Petzl appears to be to tie in through the tie in loops (at least for the couple of harnesses I checked). I'd be curious to see the instructions from any harness manufacturer which didn't specify that as a method of tying in.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
I’m still curious though whether you ended up tying in to your harness when belaying your kids?
I did not. I never used to do this when climbing with my mates at the wall either. I didn’t think anything of it until I realised I’d got within a few m of the end of the rope as I was lowering one off, because I’d backed away from the wall.
Well no, you don't, which is why I was wondering what you were worried about! Some of the ropes at our wall are a bit short, but even so you'd have to back off the wall a long way before the end of the rope went through the belay device. Presumably you girls were using harness from the climbing centre - the standard hire ones tend to have only a single tie in point (part of the reason for which is I suspect to simplify things for people).
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
At our place (Boulders in Cardiff) if you only belay and don’t climb then you don’t pay. So until they can boulder unsupervised, I won’t get to climb.
Same here - it's fairly standard. I've never yet put my climbing shoes on when I've taken my kids to the indoor wall (only when outside and I've soloed up what I've roped them on 🙂 ). Though I'll probably get a sub at some point soon in which case I guess I'll go bouldering with them (they're a bit older than yours and don't need direct supervision, though it's still frowned upon to leave your kids bouldering whilst you sit in the cafe or go on the ropes).
[i]mt wrote:[/i]
I’d not recommend use any metal gear thats aged in a loaded situation. Metal does deteriorate with age dependant on many thigs. Material, manufacture quality, type of metal, what its been used for, poor care, where its been used etc. I’d suggest we abuse our kit much more than we realize at times.
They mostly spent 15 years sitting in a tub not being used, and having done a metallurgy module at uni, no metal doesn't deteriorate with age (I only sought advice from the climbing community to check my understanding wasn't wrong). Metal might deteriorate with repeated loadings, with sufficient heat or due to oxidation or corrosion, but alu sitting in a tub for 15 years will be in the same state as when it went in. Unlike textiles which do age with exposure to the atmosphere and to light it's only usage which results in degradation of metal, so age is an incredibly crude measure.
I keep wires on old krabs but think that I have some metal kit that should be retired before I finally find another use for it. What about 25 year old wires? Would you take a screamer on them? Yes I have but thats because I’m Yorkshire.
I’ve clipped some ratty old pegs placed in the 50’s and not been concerned in the past but I was young then.
No, but only because I've never taken a screamer on trad. My wires are a similar age, but probably still have less use than some people put on their kit in a year - there's a chance some of my nuts have never been placed and certainly none of them have ever taken a lead fall. Hence given the above comments about ageing of metals there's no reason to think they're not as strong as when they were new.
In situ pegs are a different matter - you don't know what loadings they've taken (I've certainly fallen on bolts outdoors - I tend to climb somewhat bolder on sport) and they'll also have suffered from corrosion due to exposure to the elements. Not really comparable to a rack of old gear you know hasn't ever been loaded properly.
but only because I’ve never taken a screamer on trad
You've never lived! I'm sure my lack of hair has something to do with that.
I know manufacturers have to put an age limit on their products but as you say, for metal it's very much a CYA exercise. Wires do decay, it's usually the actual loop of wire that abrades against the rock causing the individual strands to break - it's a fairly obvious thing though as the ends of the strands tend to spike your fingers!
I've a full rack of quick draws that are now almost ten years old but have been sat in the loft for five years. The crabs will be fine, it's the dyneema loops that will be slowly weakening.
I always found it strange that people would happily trust fixed gear (bolts) that had been placed by persons unknown and was of uncertain age and usage but not wires, Friends, etc that they place themselves.
Pertinent point is what do the climbing center expect
Except, as I've pointed out, my wall are wrong. Most of the instructors there are CWI or CWA qualified, and only worked in that wall. I've sat and watched them belay - and wouldn't let my kid up the wall with two of them, as they're belay techniques are sloppy.
I've been on that wall as SPA, with 10 other SPA's for training days, been on with MIA and MIC, as well as Int. mountain guide. All of us agree the wall staff are wrong. I've 20 years now as SPA, leading training for staff and holding the can as Chief Instructor. I'm bloody well doing what manufacturer says, and I know is right.
IME, there's a lot of sloppy stuff going on with climbers, especially on walls.
[i]matt_outandabout wrote:[/i]
Except, as I’ve pointed out, my wall are wrong. Most of the instructors there are CWI or CWA qualified, and only worked in that wall. I’ve sat and watched them belay – and wouldn’t let my kid up the wall with two of them, as they’re belay techniques are sloppy.
The point is though that ultimately it's their rules.
I'm curious for more detail though. You've alluded a few times to your local wall being wrong without specifying in exactly what way they're wrong and how it corresponds to the advice everybody here is giving - I've checked the manufacturers instructions for mine and it specifies either using the tie in loops, or the belay loop to tie the rope to. So what are the instructors there doing wrong, what are they telling you which is wrong, and what is wrong with the 4 pics?
I'm spending a lot of time at climbing walls at the moment, so get to watch lots of people and whilst I'm not impressed at some of the external instructors who come in (particularly the teacher from one school who's regularly in), I couldn't fault any of the in house team. But then it's a very professionally run wall with people who know what they're doing and care a lot about safety.
Except, as I’ve pointed out, my wall are wrong. Most of the instructors there are CWI or CWA qualified, and only worked in that wall. I’ve sat and watched them belay – and wouldn’t let my kid up the wall with two of them, as they’re belay techniques are sloppy.
I’ve been on that wall as SPA, with 10 other SPA’s for training days, been on with MIA and MIC, as well as Int. mountain guide. All of us agree the wall staff are wrong. I’ve 20 years now as SPA, leading training for staff and holding the can as Chief Instructor. I’m bloody well doing what manufacturer says, and I know is right.
IME, there’s a lot of sloppy stuff going on with climbers, especially on walls.
I'd agree but my point was picked up by aracer. You may very well know better, but if they think you're being a dick you won't get to climb which may limit your (your in this case being Molgrips) opportunity (for those of us not blessed with mountains on the doorstep).
That said my local wall seem on the button and are always happy to help and give an opinion (take the p***) - and they've consistently taught to tie in using the two tie in loops. The friction belay is an oddity though as my memory is failing me (I'd be fine stood in front of it I think) - think you just clip a locking krab into 1 loop? Don't think the loop was specified, but its more likely me that's wrong/forgetful
[i]brassneck wrote:[/i]
The friction belay is an oddity though as my memory is failing me (I’d be fine stood in front of it I think) – think you just clip a locking krab into 1 loop? Don’t think the loop was specified, but its more likely me that’s wrong/forgetful
The auto belay? Assuming it's like all others I've seen it has an auto-locking krab, that if it's visibly closed it's locked. You clip it onto the belay loop - you can't clip through the two other loops as that would result in a 3 way loading on the krab (and if you clip only one you're not loading the harness properly). I've been thinking about how it's different from what Cougar does and the obvious thing is what he kind of mentioned - that if you're clipped in the gate is locked and staff can see it is locked.
I think this is the perfect time to add Grigri vs belay plate to the discussion....... (although I'm wondering if it's partly what MattOAB is alluding to....)
The Autobelay at my local wall has two locking krabs. One into the belay loop and then a backup on a very short sling that is clipped into the waist.
So what are the instructors there doing wrong, what are they telling you which is wrong, and what is wrong with the 4 pics?
They have multiple sheets, with four pics per sheet and random questions. They pick a sheet at random when signing up and occasionally when you sign in on a day.
Three pics are are just deliberately wrong knot or threading of rope (funnily enough, one is through the belay loop...). Fourth correct one is correct - apart from the loop created when tying into the harness is excessivly long. The loop created should be either tight or about same as belay loop.
Yes I am being fussy - but I wouldn't have signed off one of my instructors for doing that.
I'm going to use a Grigri. The lack of fail-safety in climbing gear really bugs me, and YES I KNOW a Grigri isn't fail-safe, but's better than an ATC.
If someone finds me a really fail-safe one I'll be all over it. I also have a Wild Country SRC, not sure if that qualifies or not. I bought it because it was suitable for lead climbing. A bugger to use though.
Re the test - they had one picture of an incorrectly fitted harness and I had to look for a few minutes to see what was wrong. Made me sweat given my nervousness about having forgotten all I once knew.
SRC is betterer as it locks, not releases like a GriGri, under panic pulls.
Edelrid did a similar thing iirc.
ATC doesn't have enough ''grip" imo, the one with extra grips does.
"The loop created should be either tight or about same as belay loop."
Interestingly one of the instructors locally pulled me up for this recently. Apparently gather the loop in a fist and if the knot doesn't touch the hand the loop is too long. (Probably not explained that very well). Making it longer is a bad habit I picked up 20 years ago from building belays on grit where inevitably there was lots of traipsing and a longer loop was easier to clip bits into. Although whether or not that was good practice is another discussion altogether.....
I like my ATC Guide. My problem with a Grigri is purely lack of familiarity which means I can't at a glance tell if it's correctly threaded etc.
I KNOW a Grigri isn’t fail-safe, but’s better than an ATC.
In some ways yes in others no.
Worst case scenario* with a grigri is if someone pulls the handle right down and lets go of the dead rope. There is very little friction in this system and the climber will hit the deck pretty hard.
Worst case scenario* with an ATC is the belayer letting go of the dead rope. Whilst you'll still deck out there is still a significant amount of friction in a typical wall rope running round an ATC so the climber won't deck so hard.
You pays your money and you takes your choice...
*Assuming it's all wired up and attached correctly.
What I am most worried about (at the wall at least) is accidentally letting go of the dead rope, or fumbling it. Especially if or when my kids end up learning to belay.
Interested in improving security in general. What about using an ascender in the live rope? Most people seem to think it's perfectly acceptable to have a system that is one fumble away from being useless.
Don't replace poor technique with more gear that requires more technique.
Belay properly and you are safe.
Adding more complexity, and then relying on that, is not a good direction of travel.
Interested in improving security in general. What about using an ascender in the live rope?
Matt's right don't complicate things. Find a device you're comfortable with and keep your eye on the ball.
Dropping the kids has never crossed my mind. I did a little course to learn to belay properly and do other wall related things
whats the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?
whats the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?
Mainly so it doesn't catch on things. More important once you start leading.
Belay properly and you are safe.
See, this is what I am talking about. The response to injuries caused in car crashes isn't simply "don't crash and you'll be fine". Likewise the guidelines from health and safety executive dont finish with "don't have an accident". We wear PPE because accidents are inevitable eventually no matter how hard we try. A belayer WILL make a.mistake eventually, I've made them. They just didn't coincide with my partner falling.
A hedge trimmer has a dead man's handle, rather than simply a notice saying "don't cut your leg off and youll be fine". No idea why climbers aren't worried about this.
I did a little course to learn to belay properly
I had lessons on how to.drive properly but I still wear a seatbelt. I can ride a bike.properly but I still wear a helmet.
No idea why climbers aren’t worried about this.
They are, it's just that the solution is care rather than kit.
I had lessons on how <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">to.drive</span> properly but I still wear a seatbelt.
The belay device IS the seatbelt in that it's there to help prevent injury when things go wrong and incorrect use of either can lead to injury.
You also need to consider that there is much more to climbing than top roping at the wall and that belay devices need to fulfill a much wider range of functions than they do in that role. For example, they need to be able to lock off in a fall and pay out rapidly to make a clip. They also need to release under load, potentially be used to abseil and be relatively light weight and simple to use. If you can come up with a device that does all or even most of that then get to the patent office!
whats the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?
As above, it catches on things.
In addition, as it's loaded you have knot at face height if too long.
Finally, on a crag or abseiling, there are good reasons to keep it small when setting up belays or abseil rescues. A long loop can add complications, or even make it impossible.
I’m going to use a Grigri. The lack of fail-safety in climbing gear really bugs me, and YES I KNOW a Grigri isn’t fail-safe, but’s better than an ATC.
This is the bowline argument again. A Gri-Gri is safer and 'better' in the right hands, but it's also vastly easier to use incorrectly with hilarious consequences.
I belay with a GG, but (personally) unlike a bowline knot I'm confident in using it reliably, safely and consistently
Worst case scenario* with a grigri is if someone pulls the handle right down
Even if that were the case, the belayer should still be controlling the rope with their off-hand just as with a conventional device.
Worst case scenario with a GG is that someone threads it backwards.
what's the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?
Partly as @Spin says about catching on things but also if the loop is too big it becomes very awkward trying clip the rope into protection when leading.
I found that in climbing it was best to keep things simple, if you make things complicated then when the smelly stuff hits the fan you won't remember them.
What I found amusing was the blind following of "best practice" such as having three anchor points for a belay - you'd see someone at the top of Stanage spending tens of minutes trying to fit three pieces of gear when right behind them in the perfect alignment is a 30 tonne boulder that just needs the roop looping around it.
@molgrips even the most basic belay plate will lock of its own accord if the rope(s) are in the right configuration. This does require that the device is shock loaded, the worst case is that someone simply sags onto the rope or, in the case of children, aren't heavy enough to do so. Even "auto lock" devices like the GriGri can be prone to this so they aren't completely fail safe. With a basic belay plate you can make the locking more likely by using two screwgate crabs between it and the belay loop of the harness, i.e. the rope goes through two crabs rather than just one, it makes the angles the rope moves through slightly more acute. It does make it slightly harder to feed the rope if someone's moving quickly.
IMO learning how to belay without a device is a skill worth learning even if you don't use it regularly. It teaches you how belay devices work and if you have to step in to help someone out you don't need to get kitted up to do so. (I've only ever had to do this once). I wouldn't recommend learning to abseil without a device!
Worst case scenario with a GG is that someone threads it backwards.
Read my asterisk. 🙂
the belayer should still be controlling the rope with their off-hand just as with a conventional device.
And then read the bit where I said 'and lets go of the dead rope'.
Edit: are smilies not working for everyone or just me?
Read my asterisk
Ah. Good point, well made.