Climbers - fall arrester

Quite a few things I don't understand here

Leaving aside the definition of solo climbing for a second, the big question for me is why you're bothering about the difference between 30 and 100 quid for something that may or may not save your life?

Is this for work, why aren't they paying?

How are these ropes you're going to use getting in place?

We could make suggestions, but surely this isn't a good candidate for one of those " how do I...?"
If we **** this up, you die.

IANARAT

Coming back to your actual question I've used a shunt loads of times for self lining a rock climb. No issues at all.... BUT be aware that someone did have an issue where somehow the rope came out, and I think he died.

I've been using a Petzl shunt for over three decades, so far so good.

https://www.snowleader.com/shunt-PETZ00022.html

Are you sure about this?

thegeneralist

Quite a few things I don’t understand here

Your not alone!

We use the Petzl variant of this setup- https://leachs.com/products/bigben-twin-tailed-webbing-fall-arrest-lanyard-1m-comes-with-x2-allow-scaff-hooks-and-x1-twistlock-carabina-with-locking-pin

As with all this kit proper training is invaluable

If you're scared of heights aren't you able to send someone up the mast instead who knows what they're doing / has the kit already?

If you have two halyards, I would go for two people and both halyards being taken in as you ascend and vice versa.

Don't attempt this solo.

Is this a yacht mast?

I use to climb a lot. From memory know one relies on these devices. They would normally tie in periodically as well

My hunch is you are out of your depth

Out of his height, surely?

From memory know one relies on these devices.

At least one person does. 😉 The accident the Generalist refers to in his edit was because the rope was too thin IIRC. I like the shunt because it can be used on a doubled rope. Always tie a knot in the end of the rope especially if doubled.

Assuming that this is for work, if you don't know what you are doing in general, and are scared of heights just stop. Now. Either get someone else to do it or get some rope access training.

But....... for top rope solo I use a sliding arrester (SAR rocker, also branded as ISC) as my main device and a progress capture device (petzl mini traxion type, lots of options, mine is an edelrid one) as my backup. In an ideal world I try to use 2 strands of static rope, with one device on each. But I wouldn't recommend using this unless you have a substantial climbing history to help!

Please don't try this without training! And please don't use a shunt. It isn't what they are for, they can and do slip.

I've done a fair bit of roped setting of a climbing wall. Petzl make the best stuff, you'd normally need an Id, ascender and a asap with a cows tail. An s-tec duck could replace the asap, and a gri-gri for the Id.

However, if you have to ask you can't do this safely. Get some professional advice. Definitely don't do this alone, hanging in a normal climbing harness unconscious for any length of time is BAD.

bit more explanation

personal not work hence trying to cut costs if there is a safe method of doing it. I can pay a rigger to do it but it is expensive and this video makes it look easy.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/CgGHKiSj4ng?rel=0

i knew there were a few pleasure and commercial climbers on here so came here for some friendly advice on how to avoid the marine tax.

sorry if you think this is a stupid idea

I don't hink it's a stupid idea. Try googling for marine forums. As a climber watching sailors haul themselves up in a bossun's chair on the spinnaker halyard or whatever pully is up the mast seems far more risky that what you're planning.

Practice somewhere safe whatever system you decide to use. My caving single rope technique was learned in the stairwell of a house so I could swing around to the stairs if I got stuck. A mate in the caving club had to be rescued from Gaping Gill because he hadn't practiced crossing a knot enough and couldn't do it in a freezing water fall when it mattered.

I have a boat & I have climbed the mast solo. To do so I have mast steps every 50cm fitted (plus safety lines)

If you don't have mast steps, you'll definitely need a (strong) friend. Two halyards, in good condition both run through clutches. Both lines tied off with bowlines/figure of 8's not the snap shackles. One halyard to be hoisted up the mast by winch second through a closed clutch as back up.

I did this last week to replace some rigging on my Dad's boat. No idea about sailing but do a lot of climbing. I used the mainsail halyard which is a 4:1 I think, with me pulling myself up with it, and him feeding it around the cleat at the bottom (effectively belaying). I have a ton of rope access and climbing gear available but this seemed the easiest and safest method given that the rope was already up. But then I'm not scared of heights and am fairly comfortable with this sort of thing - if you're not, I could see you getting into a bit of a mess. I think doing it 'solo' is asking for trouble - at least get someone else to help out from the bottom, either providing backup to the rope or just to talk things through with to make sure it's sensible.

Re that youtube clip. Is that really best practice? No redundancy.

I assume the "ladder" is hauled up on a cable? Why not haul up a bight of rope allowing you to be belayed from the deck?

thanks guys. some of you might interested to read the responses to the same question on my sailing forum.

i am off to learn how to tie a prussik knot and save myself £100

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/fall-arrester.588399/#post-8057734

Yeah, can't see what the ladder gets you here. If you have a static (not stretchy) rope secured from the top (preferably with a backup rope), then borrow a gri-gri from a climber, get a backup (prussik would probably do for a one off) and an ascender with foot loop and jug up.

The prussik will work but it's a right faff. The petzl asap is superb as it just follows you up and down until you need it.

There isn't a simple answer. The complication is getting the kit you want to do the job you want, in use it need to be simple.
For climbing a rope you would use ascenders (usually one handled and one not) and some kind of foot loop.
For protecting a fall something like a Troll Rocker is often preferred.
The two use cases are different and you need to decide and understand which you are trying to achieve.
Either way matching the right rope to the right tool and knowing how to use it.
Practice climbing a wall or tree that is nice and stable before doing it on a rocky boat.
Get some instruction or a text book. Rock Climbing by Libby Peter was the standard climbing text but may not describe the situation you have well as it is more of a roped access situation.
Oh and obvious as it sounds check your knot, check your kit and check it again. Kit used properly rarely fails. People die from knot and rope mistakes. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that is reality of rope work.
The conundrum is that not using the rope is rarely safer.
Edit: Matt's suggestion of effectively being belayed by two colleagues with halyards sounds a great solution. You concentrate on climbing, they concentrate on preventing you fall. Simple and fairly safe.

Really, prussik knots are for emergencies only. They're just too stiff to ascend with. I would get a couple of ascenders, like the one in the video (cheaper ones would probably be OK if you avoid shock loading them).

One attached to a harness, one with a foot loop. then work your way up. It is hard work though and I would advise GREAT caution!

This method relies on getting a rope attached to the top of the mast, so good luck with that...

this is not a job for a novice

Asap is not designed to be used without the associated’lanyard’ pack though and is effectively useless below 2m due to the way it works. Needs sternal attachment point too.
Shunt no longer certified by Petzl as a back up device and only sold as a rope grab. Make of that what you will- biggest danger with a shunt is it being towed down the line in descent. The Duck does basically the same thing and is certified for that use but has the same inherent risks. There’s a reason that both devices are getting rarer in the rope access world.
ISC Rocker (or one of the many licensed versions) probably best but that is designed to be used with a max 30cm lanyard on a sternal attachment point.
Prussic isn’t really a bad idea to be honest. As long as the cord you use is appropriate for the diameter of rope you are climbing. It’s probably what I’d use.

(IRATA L3 and arb tree climber of 10+years experience here…)

Getting hoisted up sounds like the best idea to me.

Climbing on Prussik loops is hard work for the non-professional.

Also one doesn't need to be unconscious to die from suspension trauma. OP do you know how to mitigate the effects if stuck at height on your own? If the answer is no then maybe this isn't for you.

As the OP has got the info he needs and the thread has reached the random anecdote phase. A problem to solve:

A group of cavers is doing a through trip but when pulling the rope down after descending a pitch it gets stuck (this is back when natural belays were used rather than chains/bolts). The pitch was pretty long so most of the rope is up the pitch which means cutting off what's left doesn't yield enough rope for the next pitch. The rope is really stuck, four cavers pulling on it won't move it. Equipment is just battery lamps on belts, an ammo box with with a spare carbide lamp, a Mars bar a pen knife. Cavers wearing wet suits, Joe Brown helmets and boots. How do you get out?

thanks again. Just to be clear i wanted to climb a webbing ladder attached to a mast and thought i should have a safety line and harness to stop me splatting on the deck if i fell off.

i have run out of victims to winch up in the bosuns chair so it looks like i will need to pay the professionals

thanks folks

I'll echo what a lot of folk have said. Currently your plan sounds like a sure fire way of getting stuck or hurting yourself.

Any fall arrest device is all very well until you fall then have no way of getting down.

I have some ideas but I have no knowledge of what your 'site' looks like so don't want to offer advice. Basically I don't want you to spangle yourself with no means of rescue. Noone likes being an accident statistic.

Like mattbee I'm an IRATA level 3 with 12 years and a previous 10 years up trees.

For what it's worth, I've been up the mast on the royal yacht Britannia twice.

Aha. @edukator. use the belts to 'prussik' your way up the rope to free it. Then somehow get back down! Maybe wedge the ammo box into a crack and thread the rope around it, so you can easily pull it through afterwards?

i am off to learn how to tie a prussik knot and save myself £100

Prussiks are used for a variety of things but they are absolutely not a fall arrest device. There are lots of things that can go wrong with them in this scenario.

Don't use a prussik for this purpose.

Climbing on Prussik loops is hard work for the non-professional.

No rope access professional is going to use prussik loops so it's kind of academic how hard they'd find it!

Asap is not designed to be used without the associated’lanyard’ pack though and is effectively useless below 2m due to the way it works.

Isn't that due to the load it puts on the anchor in a rope access worst case scenario so it doesn't meet the standard ie factor 2 fall?

Petzl

Petzl considers that there is no real risk for the user when using the ASAP attached without an energy absorber to Petzl PARALLEL 10.5 mm and AXIS 11 mm ropes.

To echo - rope access and self-belay is a deceptively complex. Lots of stuff to get wrong, especially if you are already nervous of heights.

Do you even have a suitably anchored fixed rope in place to use an ascender on?

The only other option that springs to mind is to carry two lanyards and clip between into each rung of the webbing ladder as you go, but I have no idea what condition this webbing is in, or whether it can take any kind of fall forces, so there is just as much to go wrong there.

Not the belts or the rope tail to make prussik loops, finefilly, they're too thick and slip. Boot laces! Then free climb back up, or hand over hand up the rope with feet on whatever they can find and hand holds when ever they appear. We're all still here and look like dying of old age.

This not a recommendation OP unless you think you might die of exposure before anyone realises you're missing and sends a rescue party.

group of cavers is doing a through trip but when pulling the rope down after descending a pitch it gets stuck (this is back when natural belays were used rather than chains/bolts

Let me guess - Swinsto or Simpson's?

This is what I want to do - I wouldnt even bother with the safety line if i was clearing the gutters

Two halyards, in good condition both run through clutches. Both lines tied off with bowlines/figure of 8’s not the snap shackles. One halyard to be hoisted up the mast by winch second through a closed clutch as back up.

The only problem with this is that if you're going to the top of the mast, unless you have a masthead kite, then there's only one main halyard. So if there was an issue with this then there's going to be a bit of a fall until the secondary (kite/jib) halyard took over.
The other little issue is that if there's a single attachment point for the halyards that fails then any number of halyards isn't going to help you!

This is what I want to do – I wouldnt even bother with the safety line if i was clearing the gutters

Again, this webbing has been hoisted up on the main halyard leaving nothing to attach to your harness if you're going to the top.
You'll also notice that this webbing ladder has actually gone up the mainsail track - without this it would move around frighteningly.

(I've been up enough masts to be grateful that there are younger/lighter people around to go up instead of me 😁)

I used to climb the mast on our boat occasionally by ascending a taut halyard: Two loops - foot & waist in a climbing harness in classic Alpine style. I found Klemheist knots worked better than Prusik knots for me. Yes, it's a workout, but it's a lot easier on a taut rope (halyard) than a free one.

The halyard ran over the top of the mast, so there was no risk of a sheave failing, and I inspected the full length of it beforehand & tied it off, rather than relying on shackles or cleats.

I hauled up a climbing rope tied to a second halyard and [Edit:] and used my belay device on this with regular knots below it as a backup and for getting down. (Yes I've read about Prusik knots sliding and melting the rope.)

Clipped on to the top of the mast with a lanyard while working.

Up to you to decide how safe it is, but it didn't kill me yet.

View from the top:

It was 'interesting' if there was any wash from passing boats!

biggest danger with a shunt is it being towed down the line in descent.

Don't understand this, can you explain pls.

Not for/against/argumentative (surprisingly for STW) just curious. Used to use Shunts for self belay when soloing harder/higher than comfortable with and am interested in just how many bullets I've dodged...

I know nothing about boats, but if what you're calling the halyard is that white rope in the photo then I really wouldn't want to be falling on it with any kind of fall factor.

if what you’re calling the halyard is that white rope in the photo then I really wouldn’t want to be falling on it with any kind of fall factor.

Correct - it’s just a static rope to ascend. Backup is the doubled, green, (dynamic) climbing rope.

Correct – it’s just a static rope to ascend. Backup is the doubled, green, (dynamic) climbing rope.

Precisely my reasoning, yes. 😁

This entire thread gives me the willies. I've done a (small) bit of rope rescue practice and as someone else said on the previous page it's far more complex and far easier to get wrong than you'd first think. I wouldn't be undertaking what the OP is proposing without proper tuition and I sure as shit wouldn't be hitting the Internet to ask how I could do it as cheaply as possible. Prusik loops are for when you're absolutely screwed, out of gear and resorting to pulling bits of string out of your pocket or laces out of your boots, not as a primary means of protection.

If you absolutely have to do this, I'd be getting some practice in at a controlled environment like a climbing wall before risking it 'live'.

Let me guess – Swinsto or Simpson’s?

Correct, but I can't remember which of the two.

They were both notorious for it (we got a rope caught up in Swinsto once).

Ah, made me all nostalgic for a clean washed streamway and the smell of carbide, that did.

My advice to the OP - if you've got long hair (or beard) tie it back out of the way before looking down when you're descending the rope. Oh, how I laughed (but not at the time).

Aha, not too far off with that caving conumdrum - reckon I could've made it out!

Judging by that pic for the mast climbing, something like a Petzl tibloc/shunt attached to your harness would do the job. Or, just a cheap Chinese SOB from eBay. Having a taut rope would help you aswell. If you slip, it should catch then you can remount the ladder. I guess there really wouldn't be much of a shock on it, if at all...

My advice to the OP – if you’ve got long hair (or beard) tie it back out of the way before looking down when you’re descending the rope. Oh, how I laughed (but not at the time).

Had a mate get his long, straggly beard caught in the belay device in the middle of a free hanging abseil. Good times. 🙂

Long hair in my case, rigging and leading the main free hanging pitch in Rowten Pot, a forbidding place at the best of times. I was using a Petzl Stop so, of course, gripped the handle in panic when I realised I was about to be scalped - weeeeeee/aargh.

I was using a Petzl Stop so, of course, gripped the handle in panic when I realised I was about to be scalped – weeeeeee/aargh.

Petzl have now taken that on board and the current model of Stop is the other way round, squeeze to stop and lift to go.

@boblo

I think there is some theoretical risk of the shunt slipping and once slipping it can keep slipping. From memory something to do with the external lever. I think that in theory if you invert it can also pull the ropes out or lift the stop lever. Plenty of people use or used to use them for top rope solo, weighting the rope below with a bag improves the function. Probably safer than a death modified gri gri which you can use for soloing.
I think the rope access standard piece of kit is (or was) the Troll or ISC rocker.
Other random option is the Wren soloist but the instructions make it clear that it isn't guaranteed to work. As with the shunt tying knots in the rope below you limits the potential distance you could slip back down in the event of a device slipping.

@jaminb
Depending on where you are located, I'll happily let you winch me up on a halyard, if we go out for a sail afterwards / before. (Ex Steeplejack and rock climber)

thanks marcus. You are more than welcome to come sailing southampton based. We need to fix some minor damage to the rigging before we go!

@boblo In the rope access world rope techs had permission to use shunts as towable back ups for years. They were used on the end of a lanyard (cowstail) and as long as they were towed by the cord on the rear they functioned well.

The problems arose when people grabbed the body or the rope and subsequently pushed it down rendering it ineffective. Others myself included tied longer cord on so we could tie bigger knots in the cord as when your gloves were slick with paint it'd always slip through.

S-tec Ducks have the same problem.

@jamiemcf Ahh, OK - ta. Operator error rather than intrinsically unsafe. A lot of kit is like that. Use it or interfere with it in a certain way and it becomes prone to failure - even the humble krab.

We used to use a double rope with a sac on the end to tension it and as short a link as possible/practical to keep the fall factor down. Oh, and no handling of rope or Shunt during ahh, 'use' ie when flying.

Thanks for explaining. I was concerned they were found intrinsically unsafe.

Petzl Stop

aka Petzl plummet! 😀

I loved a Stop (or a Go with slick silicone covered ropes) so versatile.

Ok the prussik knot isn't happening I am going to buy a Goblin after watching this

Anyone care to offer a suggestion, or start a comedy thread, for a cheap harness suitable for falling off a ladder?

Thanks

I used to climb up the mast on our boat sat on a plastic kids swing, pulling the other end of the halyard it was attached to. Gaff rig so so the halyard went higher than the standing rigging. And no need for ladders or mechanical advantage on the halyard as you already have a 2:1 advantage built in.

I didn't die, just don't let go of the rope!

Two things to note:
This wasn't really a great idea.
If you're afraid of heights, a yacht mast is the worst place for it, unlike a nice solid rock face, it's moving around, a lot! Trying to re-wire a light whilst both you and the light are penduluming back and forth several feet is not really fun 😂.

Fred Dibnah demonstrating proper use of a bosun's chair. Chimneys not quite as bad for moving around as a yacht mast, but apparently the tall ones move quite a bit on a windy day!

I'd like to see Fred's RAAM's for that project!

In fact, we often complain about "elf n safety gone mad" but thankfully we don't have any more employers sending men up to do jobs like that with as scant regard to the value of them going home safely at night!

Had to be done...makes me feel ill watching that now.

The video of Fred is worth watching; what you can do with experience and competence! I'm surprised that the [lack of] H&S law to allow him to do it and the filming technology to capture it existed at the same time.

Linked from the Noakes video was one I'd forgotten about:

"Do I wear a harness as well?"

"Well, you've no need to, it's quite safe."

👀

^^^ actually felt a bit sick watching that! Fair play to PD, doesn’t even question it as he clambers over the edge in his plimsolls 😂 And the cameraman! I’d be clinging on for grim death, not filming from there!

In the rope access world rope techs had permission to use shunts as towable back ups for years. They were used on the end of a lanyard (cowstail) and as long as they were towed by the cord on the rear they functioned well.

The problems arose when people grabbed the body or the rope and subsequently pushed it down rendering it ineffective.

Just to be clear, this isn't the only problem with Shunts. The other ( vanishingly rare, but pretty fundamental) issue was that they could deform sufficient for the rope to fall out of them.
Which was a major downer for the person using it.

The video of Fred is worth watching; what you can do with experience and competence! I’m surprised that the [lack of] H&S law to allow him to do it and the filming technology to capture it existed at the same time.

TV is weird and well overdue for some fairly horrible accidents. On almost every job there's some junior production manager slightly out of their depth in whatever is being filmed because they're not an expert. One day they'll be filming puppies at a rehoming shelter, the next it's on a trawler in the north sea, it's incredulous that you could be competent enough at both to write a decent risk assessment. And after a 16h day of it there won't be a budget for a hotel so it's a 4h drive home on the motorway.

It's a British thing, we're known as the Mexico of Europe within the industry for it.

Fair play to PD

Yeah. I thought he looked young so I "did the math," I reckon he was 26 there.

Seems an interesting chap. They had a spinoff "Duncan Dares" series where they had him do increasingly stupid exciting stunts, I vaguely remember at the time thinking he must've been mad. But he's a trained thesp, done loads of stage work. Lots of stuff with the scouts too.

TV is weird and well overdue for some fairly horrible accidents.

It's had a couple. Didn't a member of the public get seriously hurt on one of Noel Edmonds' outings? Standing on top of a car or something, IIRC? Dancing on Ice has had a few casualties as well.

There's maybe a mentality that thinks "well, it must be safe or I wouldn't be allowed to do it"? I've thought pretty much that when jumping out of aeroplanes so it's not a great leap (ho ho!) to assume the same when surrounded by TV cameras.

Seems an interesting chap. They had a spinoff “Duncan Dares” series where they had him do increasingly stupid exciting stunts

It’s had a couple. Didn’t a member of the public get seriously hurt on one of Noel Edmonds’ outings? Standing on top of a car or something, IIRC? Dancing on Ice has had a few casualties as well.

Anything in front of the camera is generally very thoroughly risk assessed, that's not what I meant. Although the backstory I've heard to this is very believable from people who worked on it https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jan/25/olympian-beth-tweddle-sues-the-jump-makers-over-injuries.

Thinking more about the less obvious stuff, the stupid levels of overtime followed by an expectation you'll just drive several hours home to the other end of the country without killing yourself/others is the most prevalent.

Or the general inability of anyone to say no to an instruction. I'm lucky in that I came to it later in my career and frequently just said no this isn't something I'm comfortable doing for safety reasons (usually something electrical). But you see a lot of things being done that really should be done by a qualified electrician or from a PASMA platform rather than hanging off a ledge.

I have a boat & I have climbed the mast solo.

I can tell that this is a euphamism but I can't work out what it means

The Noel Edmond incident was this

On 13 November 1986, volunteer Michael Lush was killed during his first rehearsal for another live stunt. The stunt, called "Hang 'em High", involved bungee jumping from an exploding box suspended from a 120 ft-high crane. The carabiner clip attaching his bungee rope to the crane sprang loose from its eyebolt during the jump. He died instantly upon impact of multiple injuries, and The Late, Late Breakfast Show was cancelled on 15 November 1986 after Edmonds resigned, saying he did not "have the heart to carry on".[11] The planned episode that was to be aired that night was replaced with a showing of the film One of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing

More details here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Late,_Late_Breakfast_Show

Reading what went wrong is shocking.