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Why do so many adults feel the need to ridicule or criticise kids who want a better future?
Because it threatens their status quo.
Because the kids are protesting in the wrong continent.
What do you want them to do fly to Indonesia FFS!
You are talking twaddle anyway!
Guess where?
*sees Chewkw has posted their 'wisdom'*
*leaves the thread*
Just been to the Manchester one. Back in February there were no more than a few hundred kids and adults. Today there were thousands. Ignore the cynics, this is the fastest growing, most powerful, energetic and inspiring political movement I've ever seen, and I've been involved in a fair few in tthe past. The only thing anyone should feel when they see these strikes and marches is hope.
What do you want them to do fly to Indonesia FFS!
You are talking twaddle anyway!
Because most of the forest are in 3rd world nations. In the developed nations you have tighter rules to protect the environment but what is the point of protesting here when the vast virgin forest, sometimes larger than the size of certain developed countries, are destroyed in developing and 3rd world?
You may reduce your pollution in the developed countries but the developing and 3rd world are burning the forest at a rate that non of your pollution rules can handle.
Isn't it rationale to tell or to educate the people there not to burn down the forest or kill all the wild animals?
Go tell the greedy "mafia" (some of them are local mafia or "strongmen") there not to slash-and-burn ...
Over in Borneo we despair but what can we do unless we want to be buried six feet under.
Because the carbon cycle is a cycle it can be influenced at various points.
And those kids in the picture, guess where they are?
Dazh, thats my thoughts too. I was pretty much moved to tears by young kids being organised and passionate, they might not have all the the answers yet but they are kids....
And those kids in the picture, guess where they are?
Definitely not Indonesia or Borneo.
We (not me but local "strongmen") destroy our virgin forest at a rate others will cry if they can see what have happened to the land. We in Borneo have lived in despair about the situation for sometime now.
Because the kids are protesting in the wrong continent.
Developed countries produce waaaaaaaaay more CO2 then developing countries
I'm firmly in the 'couldn't give a toss about climate change' camp. I'll be long gone before we're all submerged. Plus warmer weather and more rain sounds great.
Utter end of a bell
Plus warmer weather and more rain sounds great.
Until the flood, tornado, drought or some other extreme weather event gets you. Britain is not imune. And even if it is imume to extreme weather the geopolitical turmoil shortly to be unleashed will get you one way or another.
We're all in this together and it's up to us all to do what we can.
Seems like @Jambo nailed it in the first comment really and @Chewkw kindly confirmed it 😉
I've just checked my first climate change post after the hack 9 years ago:
Edukator
Member
Among those of you that do think CO2 emissions are responible for changes in cliamte that will adversly affect humanity how many have you have done anything significant such as:
1.Choosing to live near your work and the services you use.
2.Using public transport, a bike or your feet to get to work.
3.Investing in insulating your house and heating system to the point your heating consumption is below 3000 kWh/year.
4.Having a solar hot water heater or heat pump.
5.Producing enough electricity to have a negative electricity bill.
6.Changing your eating habits in favour of local produce.
7.Using the train for long distance continental travel.
8.Reducing your general level of consumption of goods and services.
9.Deciding to limit your family size if you still have the choice.
10. Composting your bio waste.
11. collecting rain water for toilet flushing and garden useScore yourselves out of the number of points that apply to you giving half marks if for example you do more long distance miles by train than car but still own a car. I'm at 8.5/11
The first step is understanding the issues, the second actually doing something. A flash new car often takes priority over a heat pump or solar panels.
Posted 9 years ago
from this theread:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/global-warming-see-for-yourself/page/4/
The number of deniers on the forum is in decline but the number of people prepared to do anything isn't much better. I'm now up to 9.5/11
Because the kids are protesting in the wrong continent.
And there is the problem. It's global. Blaming one country/continent over another is a waste of energy/effort/time. It needs near global agreement and if the world sees kids protesting, wherever they are, then great. I just hope the go home and reduce their own impact and nag their parents
Edukator - 7.5/11 here, but too late for 9 and living in the sticks makes public transport difficult.
I can only manage 7.5 from the above list, but items 4, 5 and 11 require investment capital that I just don't have at the moment. Also, solar is difficult where we are, our house is exposed to quite severe winds which routinely rip tiles from the batons. I’m waiting for PV tiles to be more readily available. So far Tesla seems to be one of the major providers and they keep catching on fire...
Had to take my daughter swimming today. 25 mile round trip on the bike with 40kg hanging off the back and almost 2000ft of climbing. Still didn't even consider taking the car.
Were you in Bath today AA?
Developed countries produce waaaaaaaaay more CO2 then developing countries
But it does not help if the virgin forest is also being depleted ...
But it does not help if the virgin forest is also being depleted …
Of course it would help if developed counties produce less CO2. Just try stopping and thinking for a minute and you might realise that you are profoundly incorrect.
Definitely not Indonesia or Borneo.
How about these:
Were you in Bath today AA?
No I was at school, but I have been to strikes on other days, not in Bath though
Very happy for them to protest (one of the few good things to come out of the internet) but considering a lot of their parents will vote Tory, not sure what difference it'll make.
not sure what difference it’ll make.
Its made a massive difference getting it into the news already. Get more people on board and they will soon be a big bunch of aware and active adults.
I'll play
1.Choosing to live near your work and the services you use. (1)
2.Using public transport, a bike or your feet to get to work. (0.5 - or less, I do it on some of the days where it is possible, weather and mood dependent)
3.Investing in insulating your house and heating system to the point your heating consumption is below 3000 kWh/year. (consumption - no idea, insulated mid terrace, heating not touched for probably 9 months of the year 0.5?)
4.Having a solar hot water heater or heat pump. (no 0)
5.Producing enough electricity to have a negative electricity bill. (0 - very limited south facing roof for solar panels, no other means of generating power)
6.Changing your eating habits in favour of local produce. (1? but to what extent? I look for the British tractor stamp but I'm not at the local farmers market)
7.Using the train for long distance continental travel. (0.5 I have done this year for journeys I would previously have driven and flown, but not exclusively)
8.Reducing your general level of consumption of goods and services. (1 how do you measure - yes I keep two mountain bikes running, and I drive; bu I hate food waste, hate unnecessary clothes, car gets 60mpg)
9.Deciding to limit your family size if you still have the choice. (1)
10. Composting your bio waste. (no but there is little of it. )
11. collecting rain water for toilet flushing and garden use (mid terrace - no downpipes. Not watered the garden with anything other than dishwater this or last year. plus I wee in the shower :-))
6 maybe... depending how generous the halves are
Therefore, they should be protesting in say Indonesia where they are actively and illegally burning the virgin forest to start planting palm oil
Who do you think is buying the palm oil?
Definitely not Indonesia or Borneo.
We (not me but local “strongmen”) destroy our virgin forest at a rate others will cry if they can see what have happened to the land. We in Borneo have lived in despair about the situation for sometime now.
I was reading that over 50% of global palm oil export is from Indonesia. Perhaps people should be protesting in developed countries to try to reduce demand. Indonesia and also Malaysia are only supplying a demand. The fault is ours.
Who do you think is buying the palm oil?
yay somebody gets part of the bigger picture
The uni I work for did a half hour shutdown today. Not to be a climate protest- we already do more than most for actually fixing the environment- but just to show support for and to help empower our students. It was pretty good, except for all the MOANY FACED ****S,most of whom hadn't even bothered to read why it was happening.
Ban children, after 80 or so years all the greenhouse emitters will have disappeared and then the Earth can return to normal.
Who do you think is buying the palm oil?
Not me as I boycott it (as long as I can read the label)
Aldi are a big culprit, loads of their stuff has palm oil in including most chewy bars & their 'pot noodle' type things.
There was a daft woman on Jeremy Vine today saying she wouldn't give her staff time off to attend a Global Climate Strike & I just thought.....
Only when the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught & the last river poisoned, will we realise that we cannot eat money.
Ban children,
Yep.
People are the only things on the planet that kill it (AFAIK) yet we keep churning them out.
Lidl are awful for it as well… 90% of what can be found in the snack/biscuit aisle is stuffed with Palm oil. When we decided to drop it, it was eye opening. They do peanut only peanut butter though (as do Aldi), which everyone should swap to. Needs a stir, but tastes even better than the palm oil stuffed brand nuttybutter.
I get why people are outraged by the whole palm oil thing, but I think people need to think more broadly. The problem isn't palm oil, it's consumption. If we boycott palm oil it will just be replaced by something else that likely has a similar impact on the environment.
Because the most environmentally conscious thing you can do as an adult is not have kids. The carbon footprint of a child through their whole life is enormous
If we boycott palm oil it will just be replaced by something else that likely has a similar impact on the environment.
Yep.
Because the most environmentally conscious thing you can do as an adult is not have kids. The carbon footprint of a child through their whole life is enormous
Even more 'Yep'
I've got 2 kids. If the world was in the state It's in now when they were conceived......
Just checked and my Aldi peanut butter uses sustainable palm oil. Am I forgiven?
Personal actions are only a (small) part of this.
Lobbying to get politicians to change the rules of the game is what this is about.
Move to somewhere nearer wher you work - great - how about introducing planning legislation to ensure plenty of family homes in areas near to employment centres and that those employment centres can be accessed by transport systems that dont piss fossil carbon into the atmosphere.
Buy a low emissions car for driving the kids to ballet - bollocks - how about reconfiguring cities so kids can safely cycle themselves to Ballet/football
There's only so much that can be achieved by individual actions - forcing politicians to stop subsidising fossil fuel industry is the long game. Those free on street vehicle storage spaces outside your house are fossil fuel subsidies if they could be easily repurposed as cycletracks to get kids to school/football, and penshioners to the surgery and to coffee mornings vis bike and trike.
Its a standard fossil fuel lobbyist tactic now to point to and highlight individual action/choice as the way to "tackle" climate change - cos it means they will be able to make more cash in the interim while people waffle on about straws and other ineffective stuff and delay introducing carbon tax on Jet Fuel and maintain subsidising offshore oil production which will really make a difference. My Government has just handed a wad of cash to Aston Martin and to Ineos to build gas guzzling luxury SUV in Wales - shortly after "declaring a climate emergency" - its not about eating mung beans instead of beef once a week - its about getting the message to politicians that that sort of shit stops
The problem isn’t palm oil, it’s consumption.
👆 This. It all started when the developed countries started consuming in huge quantity of palm oil due to its versatility. As consumption goes up the greedy bar-stewards (mostly political cronies) noticed the emergent market, and they started to plan them in huge quantity by buying off or grabbing lands from the innocence/naive natives. The plantations then changed hands selling to large conglomerates from all over the world. It is a bit late now to stop them other than trying to slow down the damages. Also the developed / western consumption is now replaced by new economy superpower in the East. Their demand for palm oil is many times larger put it this way ...
Nobody is stopping the developed world from consumption but just do it moderately and we shall all able to enjoy the nature a bit more.
Do you know that when they opened up the land all the wild animals are killed? i.e. shot on sight especially native wild boar because they say wild boar destroy their palm oil plantation crops. (in nature wild boar is like the soil plougher and they help the land) When they kill the wild boar they kill the entire family herd of hundreds at a time. Since most of the plantation workers are of certain religious denomination (majority) they just dumped the killed boars or buried them.
We have been using cold press red palm oil since I was a kid but they are rather expensive nowadays due to export market. The red palm oil is being sold like "gold dust" over here but as a kid they are just ordinary household cooking oil for us. In those days nobody knows much about palm oil ...
How about these:
The population of Indonesia is 271,265,286 and rising so are those the only people protesting? It's like a drop of water in ocean. Now they are moving their capital to Southern Borneo after destroy the water bed in their current capital.
We in Borneo have lived in despair about the situation for sometime now.
I imagine most Brazilians who aren’t involved in the wholesale destruction of their own country are pretty despairing of their situation, encouraged as it is by a despotic maniac running the country.
Sounds good until what that employment centre specialises in is no longer in demand. See ex mining, steel or mill towns.
So many things need doing to tackle this that onlytaxes and legislation will sort out. Human nature means the majority of people will take the easiest and cheapest option without considering the implications.
Although lets remember Greta Thunberg started on her own in August last year, today saw millions world wide join her.
https://twitter.com/nattyover/status/1175150366033420293?s=21
From Frankie Boyle on Twitter,
"That kids have got to take time out of their childhoods to explain climate science to us should be a matter of profound shame"
Are these kids really up for no flights, not getting a car at 18 and no new phones etc. Because no matter how we get there (Govt action or individual action) thats what it all boils down to. The ones i've spoken to (including my own) talk a good talk but haven't quite reconciled themselves to this reality. Easy to protest against 'the other'.
What amazes me is that Chewkw can start typing coherent sentences on certain subjects.
Personal actions are only a (small) part of this.
Lobbying to get politicians to change the rules of the game is what this is about.
Exactly, which is why getting a movement is so critical
What amazes me is that Chewkw can start typing coherent sentences on certain subjects.
Depends what character they are playing that day. What amazes me is that people still enagage with a known troll.
Are these kids really up for no flights, not getting a car at 18 and no new phones etc. Because no matter how we get there (Govt action or individual action) thats what it all boils down to
You could go to a demo and ask them? Or you could just snipe from the sidelines with the same old rubbish about there being no point that has driven them to this position.
Are these kids really up for no flights, not getting a car at 18 and no new phones etc.
My eldest is 17, never yet taken a flight, doesn’t want to learn to drive or get a car. I’ll disregard your phone comment, it barely manages to escape the “how can they be on benefits and have a phone, I used to carry a 5p piece in my shoe” daily mail reader black hole of anti-debate nonsense.
Correction - she wants an old Fiat, to turn into a greenhouse, because they look ace.
Thought this was an interesting read.
Found this thread to be monumentally depressing.I'm not sure I 100% understood his point, but I think he's arguing that the climate movement is bad because on a linked website on one of the websites involved it states that they want non market solutions.
Realistically I don't see how this is a bad thing.
He even states:
"In other words, we cannot use market mechanisms, economics or technology to cut carbon emissions. We need trees, not factories."
Again unless I'm misunderstanding he seems to mean this is a bad thing.
Reducing fossil fuels is going to be really expensive, and therefore bad.
Later he states
"Oh, and pay loads and loads of extra money to poorer countries"
And then:
"In my book, I diagnosed what I called 'utopian authoritarianism' - the idea that the only way to save the planet is for people on the left to command others, in the developed and developing world, to live poorer, meaner lives"
Which seems a little contradictory.
If anyone can explain his points to me that would be great.
The comments after aren't worth the pixels they are rendered on.
Anagallis - as i said, i have spoken to them (and work in the environment/engagement sector). Apart from a very few really clued up youngsters they've all cried foul at the flights issue.
Kelvin - your kid sounds positively progressive. And my point on consumerism stands, it unsustainable to carry on buying new stuff.
Anagallis – as i said, i have spoken to them (and work in the environment/engagement sector). Apart from a very few really clued up youngsters they’ve all cried foul at the flights issue.
Of course the they will. They are only kids. They take their technological needs from adults. The fact that they raise climate change at all shows a degree of maturity despite their naivety.
We owe it to the next generation to do what we can to ease the pressure. Our kids will be the cause of problems of their own making. They have to try their best to solve them in a few years time.
Anagallis – as i said, i have spoken to them (and work in the environment/engagement sector). Apart from a very few really clued up youngsters they’ve all cried foul at the flights issue.
You must have spoken to different ones I have spoken to at climate strikes
My eldest is 17, never yet taken a flight, doesn’t want to learn to drive or get a car.
Give it another eighteen months and come back for an update
Give it another eighteen months and come back for an update
Yeah how dare these kids be more ambitious than you!!
What I hope these young people are doing is sending a message to business and governments around the globe that there is a generation coming that will prioritise environmental concerns over everything else in their future purchasing decisions and voting habits. That those wishing to hold power or make profit need to make this the mainstay of their agendas to remain relevant.
But, and for me this is a big but, environmental change will come at a personal cost to us, the average man on the street. I’ll not mince my words - I’m pushing toward 50 years old and before my birth most of what we know now was already known. Most of what has happened since is because ‘we’ the consumer and voter demanded and voted for more. We wanted cheaper and to minimize tax, we wanted freedom of choice, we wanted unlimited global travel. We wanted convenience. We wanted wanted more and all of that now. This is our fault - we in the west put people in power who gave us what we desired and spent our money with firms that did the damage. We chose to be ignorant when the facts we there to be seen. We can’t blame anyone but ourselves. It was us.
If this next generation are serious, and I sincerely hope they are, they need to switch (or at least compliment) their protesting with positive action and personal decision making and sacrifices as they get to an age where they can make meaningful life choices. We’ll know we (they) are winning when airlines and cattle farms around the world go out of business and the market for palm oil (mostly grown to feed the cattle) collapses. We’ll know when the birth rate drops significantly. When political parties gain power on a mandate to increase taxes to pay for climate change measures and introduce legislation to reduce choice. If non of those things happen they will have failed just like we did, waiting with our thumbs up our bums for other people to sort it out for us and not prepared to do our bit, waiting for someone to tell us we ‘must’ change our lifestyles when we could have voluntarily made the first meaningful leaps.
So protest away I say but make that the beginning of a life of positive choices and commitment. They have not yet had the time to show that level of commitment and criticism for them now is unreasonable. In 10 years however....
The only way to make people care about the enviroment is to take their worries away from other things like feeding their families.
Its easy to put the world to rights when you are sitting in an office and pulling in 5k per month. Its harder is you are digging holes and struggling to feed your family.
Ill be crucified for this but people like Trump will do more for the enviroment than a bunch of middle class moaners, He actually identified the people that are struggling and is trying to help them.
He actually identified the people that are struggling and is trying to help them.
Not sure I'd agree. On this specific point those with **** all don't do a huge amount of environmental damage because they buy/consumer **** all. They use public transport, they don't fly across the planet for holidays (or business), they buy stuff and use it until it falls apart. The problem are those of us with a bit more than **** all that prioritise our extra spending on selfish aspirations. The American dream if you will.
Nothing wrong with help to people at the bottom of the economic heap (but Trump - please. Anyone who sees 'Obamacare' as a bad thing is no friend of the poor) but it's not really relevant to this issue imo.
Also, solar is difficult where we are, our house is exposed to quite severe winds which routinely rip tiles from the batons.
That really isn't worth worrying about.
Tiles are, at the most, held by a couple if small nails in one edge - PV/solar panels are held in a bracket that's screwed down to the joists.
We've had a a mini tornado (that snapped pine trees in half and ripped all the branches off a very mature oak) go over our PV panels and they were fine.
You'll lose the roof before the panels come off.
Don't go with thermal though, it's a one trick pony as it only heard water.... PV will do much more.
Sorry… @andypaul, do you think the bigger impact is from people struggling to feed their families, and heat their homes? Not those with plenty and regularly flying off for city breaks, skiing and winter sun? I’m not sure I follow your logic.
While I think individuals can and should make personal changes, we need systemic changes to make a real difference. For this to happen needs political will, and protests like these are part of what focuses political mind.
Climate impact correlates really well with net worth. It's not the poor doing the damage.
Just checked and my Aldi peanut butter uses sustainable palm oil. Am I forgiven?
Nah, why does it need palm oil anyway 🙂
@csb if they were doing everything you list, what would your response be then? Just assume it's only the ones you've spoken to and continue in your old ways? Or accept the younger generations request for change?
Nah, why does it need palm oil anyway
Indeed. Peanuts need no additional oil. Think of palm as being some shit they’ve put in nuttybutter to con you. Reject it. Just stir your nuttybutter instead.
Sorry… @andypaul, do you think the bigger impact is from people struggling to feed their families, and heat their homes? Not those with plenty and regularly flying off for city breaks, skiing and winter sun? I’m not sure I follow your logic.
Ok try convincing a Polish family to convert their coal and wood burning central heating system to solar panels while the household takes in €700 per month.. You could repeat this over much of Eastern Europe and Rural Russia. That is millions of households burning wood from already depleted forests. Its a double hit. Only wealth and general education will change this.
Some need to read this
@Andypaul, how is Trump helping people in Rural Russia to decarbonise? You’ve really lost me now.