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People, countries, the world are useless at dealing with things that will happen in the future. People do not see themselves in the future they only see themselves now and in tech past. The future is someone else.
We are already past the point where simple things could have a big impact (should have started 40 years ago) and it will now be coming up with solutions to deal with it as the impact increases. Well off people/countries will be okay as they will deal with it, poorer people will suffer or die.
A lot of people will need to migrate but many won't be able to, i.e. poor people.
Example: here on a cycling website, dare suggest it might be better to pedal a bike using your own energy rather than attaching a lump of rare earth metals to it and plugging it into a power grid, and you get attacked for being an elitist…
Yeah I think you missed the point there.
Society on this topic is like a smoker. 20 a day, nothing major, chipping away at their health, head in the sand. Gradually the effects are clear but in denial, all the excuses. Dead by early 50s. We're probably at the late 40s stage now.
At what point do people start to change behaviours, not just in the paying it lip service sense, but people starting to make noticeable changes to their lifestyle to try and counter things?
I’m not talking just buying a car with slightly better fuel economy but actually doing away with the car and dealing with the inconvenience of it?
Personally? Over a decade ago. Gave up car ownership because I could and cars fk the environment - C02 and effect on our living space. But society is stacked against you doing that, giving up smoking was easier because that's only willpower not your job, where you live and what you do etc (I did some daft things when I was young).
I now have a car again unfortunately. Hard to avoid it, a cheap 52mpg runner bought while moving house, use it as little as possible.
I don't fly for bike holidays anymore, that's out. Trains or coaches only. We haven't flown for a holiday in 5 years and are unlikely to in future. We buy a lot less meat, maybe 75% less. All those things came too late I'd say but better late than never.
Fk waiting for the government to act and saying we're all helpless unless they guide us, they don't care. Capitalism burns everything for the profits of a few and we provide those profits with what we do/spend on. WE have the power. We need to stop having the mentality of those smokers who die young, "I'll probably give up soon.." Have some willpower - we control our actions and anything else is just excuses.
Agree, which is why WE will be doing **** all about it. You have seen the majority of WE haven't you?
the Green party should be taking this opportunity to run some campaigns along the lines of
"we told you this would happen, why do yo continue to vote for the party that promises profit and tax fiddles, rather than making some effort to make the changes we clearly desperatley need to make"
Agree, which is why WE will be doing **** all about it. You have seen the majority of WE haven’t you?
You and I don't know what 'WE' does, we just have an impression via media and our own perceptions, thinking with our own prejudices and filters, likely to be wrong. It's in many people's interest for us both to think it's all futile. The people gaining in all this will have a comfy enough last 2-3 decades on earth.
People just don't get it. Most peoples response to the hot weather is to turn the AC up in their car. Literally every car parked up on the way to pick up my kid from school had someone sat in it on their phone, engine running, AC turned up. A couple even with windows open trying to cool the entire planet.
It's just the weather. Stop flapping and enjoy it for god's sake.
Me and OH are doing as much as we can (no car, no flights, no kids, no pets) but there are still fat, lazy, cheap meat guzzling biffers
You sound like you have a joyous life
Carnivores in eating meat shocker
If this summer weather is climate change I support it. Lovely here in the west of Scotland. After all the forecast 2C warming will just get our climate closer to that of southern England.
Perhaps in 30 years time rather than Brits retiring to Spain the Spaniards will retire to lovely cool UK?
After all the forecast 2C warming will just get our climate closer to that of southern England.
The biggest mistake made in how this is presented is how often the 1.5 - 2 degree warmer planet line is taken as meaning it'll just be 2 degrees warmer where you live. 2 degrees is 200m or so further up a hill on average. 2 degrees local variation day to day is nothing.
2 degrees average global temp is totally different. I don't think you'll be getting S England weather there at that point.
It is wrong and unfair right wing nonsense to expect individuals deliver change. To expect business to do is a failure of basic understanding of how capitalism (not used pejoratively) works.
It requires concerted government action to legislate, regulate and police. So the role of individuals is to communicate and agitate so that political parties adopt pro-environmental policies and then to vote for them.
Really important in this is to push back and push back hard on the climate sceptics, deniers, go-slowers, pleaders of economic damage or nay-sayers of pointless going alone etc.
If Governments don't lead then we are ****ed. That is not to say the changes will not be difficult for businesses, public bodies or individuals. We will be encouraged through taxation, regulation eg to eat far less meat, burn less fossil fuel, fly less etc - but to leave this to people to decide on individually is ridiculous when the whole of our economy is structured against this. Only Governments can restructure societies and only people can elect Governments that are prepared to make those changes.
Whether this is possible I don't know.
…and would also achieve nothing.
Other than lowering your carbon footprint by not buying carbon intensive products.
Those companies aren't just randomly burning shit for the sake of it, they're making stuff for you to buy. Shell or BP's carbon footprint is high, but:
a) Not as high as the carbon footprint of their fuel customers
b) Is proportional to their sales, and probably beyond linearly too, as the first thing to be cut would be the most energy intensive to refine crudes.
Perhaps in 30 years time rather than Brits retiring to Spain the Spaniards will retire to lovely cool UK?
Already happening, we just call them "economic migrants", "illegal immigrants" and "cockroaches" because they're coming from a bit further south than is palatable to the Mail on Sunday.
Already happening, we just call them “economic migrants”, “illegal immigrants” and “cockroaches” because they’re coming from a bit further south than is palatable to the Mail on Sunday.
Really, they are coming for our sunshine 🤣
Nah. They're coming for you, sunshine.
After today if you're not bricking it about global heating then your are as thick as mince
No, they are coming for a climate that is tolerable/livable year round with only minor adaptation even for those with very little money.
Plus cheap food, drinkable tap water, constant electricity, fairly reliable public services.
a climate that is tolerable/livable year round with only minor adaptation
Really? Try living outdoors in the UK in winter and see how great it is. I can think of many places where the climate is more tolerable. It's looking like £2000 heating bills this coming year to cope with the climate.
Plus cheap food, drinkable tap water, constant electricity, fairly reliable public services.
None of which are anything to do with climate. War, corruption, bad government etc.
We're only here until the next mass extinction event - we might as well enjoy the ride (or work hard to get our DNA off the planet)
Some might say we ARE the next mass extinction event...
Some might say we ARE the next mass extinction event…
We very clearly are
We need to make travelling (flights/cruises) as antisocial as littering.
Saw this today, stunned tbh.
https://www.chimuadventures.com/en-gb/greatest-day
1 DAYS FROM £ 10,735
OVERVIEW
Come join us on the worlds most extraordinary day trip. Leaving Cape Town via a Gulfstream private jet we soar over thousands of icebergs as we pass into 24 hours of continuous daylight. Landing on Wolf’s Fang Runway deep in the interior of Antarctica, you will experience a landscape unlike anything else on earth and become one of the few that have ever stepped foot on the Seventh Continent.Once on the ice your expert guides will lead you on a scenic hike to the base of a nearby mountain where you will enjoy a quaint picnic in undoubtedly one of the world's most unique locations. For the adventurous you are welcome to continue onwards to the summit over the mountains of the Wolf's Fang Range or engage in a simple biking or 4x4 safari drive. Come join us on the most unforgettable day trip on Earth.
Enjoy it while you burn it eh.
These no-irony c**** do a similar trip and make you a cocktail from 10,000 year old glacier water while you're there. $14,000. Melts more than just a cocktail's worth probably.
https://white-desert.com/adventures/the-greatest-day/
The biggest effort that seems to have been made so far is offsetting or planting trees. We can’t cheat our way out of this and just continue as we are FFS. I’ll just keep on flying abroad every year, offset and plant some trees innit! We can’t sweep this under a rug and it can’t be offset. Even when the earth is burning some **** finds a way to make money from it. Says it all really
We need to make travelling (flights/cruises) as antisocial as littering
Let me know where you live you because here in Rossendale nobody gives a **** about littering so I want to move where you live.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/spring-clean/
Nope.
We’re past it.
Yes we should’ve done 20 years ago what we failed to do 10 years ago. COP26 disastrous.
It’s done.
Now watch how we shall increasingly dehumanise refugees of climate change/ecological disasters.
We’re only here until the next mass extinction event
We’re in it. We made it. The Holocene Extinction Event. You’ll be amazed how many people don’t know
crossed
Full Member
So with the current heatwave we’ve got here in the UK and countless other heatwaves/freak weather events in other countries like Australia and the US I’ve been pondering today…At what point do people start to change behaviours, not just in the paying it lip service sense, but people starting to make noticeable changes to their lifestyle to try and counter things?
I’m not talking just buying a car with slightly better fuel economy but actually doing away with the car and dealing with the inconvenience of it?Obviously, some people have already started to make changes with the way they live their lives. Others don’t believe in climate change and carry on as they were. Some think it’s pointless with China/India producing huge amounts of emissions.
Are we at the point where we’re screwed as a race or will we turn things around?
Amusing how so quickly the car is homed in on, during a day of warmth, err, during our summer...
So it was nothing to do with the little bit of the jet stream which broke out from the more northerly region of the jet stream and pumped hot air up from southern Spain, as explained on the BBC. LMAO. One day of high heat and it's the end of civilization because people drive cars.
The solutions are there, as outlined by scientists. They're not even difficult to implement, but vested interests spend a lot of money on convincing us that there is nothing we can do, while they, of course, continue with thier sociopathic accumulation of wealth. It always stuck me is that is why a carbon tax is so unpopular with the rich, because so long as the economic system is powered with fossil fuel, it's effectively a stealth tax on thier wealth, much of it gained by exploitation of natural resources which are not thiers and for which someone else will collect the tab for.
This "it's over, so what's the point" discourse is will result in a self-fufilling prophecy and is unacceptable to the younger generations. On one level, if everyone largely removed thier intake of red meat and dairy; cycled instead of buying obscene vehicles; and reduced their flying to once or twice a year; this would make, according to the science, massive reductions in the main drivers of climate change, which are the release of carbon into the atmosphere and the loss and destruction of natural carbon sinks such as forests.
Yet it rests with the corporations and effective governance to enact these changes since it's clear from walking around any UK city that most individuals (or at least a significant majority) will largely persue thier own immediate interests before those who'll come after them, even, apparently, if they're their own children.
scientists
Subsequently the most corrupt group of people on the planet, outside of politicians.
And we're supposed to believe them?
Allow me to demonstrate:
Prof Neil Ferguson promoted lock down and isolation as the effective actions against the "Thing".
Since when, Johns Hopkins University has conducted a meta-data-analysis which concludes that lock-downs had a negligible effect on mortality, but had tremendously deleterious effect on the wider population:
Ergo, Scientists can no longer be trusted!
Hilarious, absolute comedy gold.
So it was nothing to do with the little bit of the jet stream which broke out from the more northerly region of the jet stream and pumped hot air up from southern Spain, as explained on the BBC
Doesn’t explain why that air was 40C instead of the more usual 25 ish though does it. What you’ve highlighted there is weather rather than climate….
Not agreeing with the anti covid brigade, but from a global long term point of view, killing off a few percentage points of the population, while another large portion of society voluntarily reduced their travel and material consumption - would have been a good thing overall.
But not something palatable to modern society.
Now watch how we shall increasingly dehumanise refugees of climate change/ecological disasters.
Right, so this little island has to accommodate the whole of Africa and Asia, otherwise we is racist?
Prof Neil Ferguson promoted lock down and isolation as the effective actions against the “Thing”.
I missed that press briefing where Prof Ferguson spoke about the "Thing".
Are you entirely sure that you are not getting confused with a 1950s movie that you might have watched during lockdown?
Right, so this little island has to accommodate the whole of Africa and Asia, otherwise we is racist?
Well we have far fewer cheap euro workers now, we have to get the labour force from somewhere, no? hahah!
By ‘we’ I mean the human race.
But yeah if the cap fits then stick it on a strawman, why not? 🙄
See if you can detect how all of the following statements could qualify as strawmen arguments.
EXAMPLE 1
"The Senator thinks we can solve all our ecological problems by driving a Prius."
EXAMPLE 2
"Quite the contrary: The Senator thinks the environment is such a wreck that no one's car choice or driving habits would make the slightest difference."
Example 3
“Right, so this little island has to accommodate the whole of Africa and Asia, otherwise we is racist?”
LMAO. One day of high heat and it’s the end of civilization because people drive cars.
Haha, tbh, I'm surprised the usual suspects aren't blaming brexit...
I must ask - (if you’re not trolling) do you somehow believe the UK to be under more pressure from asylum seekers and refugees than other countries?
Climate change deniers using something that climate change has caused to say that climate change isn’t happening
We’re through the stupidity looking glass people
I must ask – (if you’re not trolling) do you somehow believe the UK to be under more pressure from asylum seekers and refugees than other countries?
Not intending to get in on the whole "are we xenophobes?" debate, but I was under the impression that the UK is particularly attractive to migrants and refugees due to the language. Takes away one of the barriers one might face when relocating to a new country.
but I was under the impression that the UK is particularly attractive to migrants and refugees due to the language. Takes away one of the barriers one might face when relocating to a new country.
Anecdotal but. Yes, thats my experience of both refugees and economic migrants from primarily Africa for non Europeans. Mostly Somalia and West Africa for some reason where I worked, all really good workers too, better than the lazy slack jawed locals* by some margin.
One of the few things I miss about that job is the diversity of colleagues. Where I am now is more or less single culture.
*Im aware im in that group 🙃
There will be mass migration, especially from areas that were not easy to live in to start with. Parts of India are getting there (the richer will migrate, the poorer will die)
Even in the UK many people will move away from South and go North (if they want to remain in UK) but most people could actually do that so expect North to increase population and South to lower - at least levelling up will happen!
Why it won't be fixed is because almost everything people do in better off countries has an impact;
- Driving everywhere
- Using energy in the house (with increase in summer as people get air con)
- Buying stuff (pretty much everything is shipped in including half the food)
- Choice of food (meat)
- Going on holidays abroad/air travel/cruises
- etc,.
but I was under the impression that the UK is particularly attractive to migrants and refugees due to the language. Takes away one of the barriers one might face when relocating to a new country.
Anecdotal but. Yes, thats my experience of both refugees and economic migrants from primarily Africa for non Europeans. Mostly Somalia and West Africa for some reason where I worked, all really good workers too, better than the lazy slack jawed locals* by some margin.
One of the few things I miss about that job is the diversity of colleagues. Where I am now is more or less single culture.
*Im aware im in that group 🙃
Most people don't care, yes there are moans but they just don't care. Either it's too complicated, will inconvenience them, is seen as unfair, or will cost money.
Imagine the impact stopping plastic tat would have. I'm talking that stuff that is littering beaches right now.
The crude oil that goes into manufacturing something out of crude oil, then transporting it from China to UK then to shop, then to beach only to be abandoned within hours. Every step and process and "need" in that journey is why we, collectively, are beyond help.
Don't glue yourself to roads and trains. Sink/disable the big ships that transport goods that are instarubbish around the globe.
@jameso
I thought that had to be a joke when I first read it, but no, it appears to be real. Luckily, one of the things included in your private jet trip to Antarctica is
Payment of 'Carbon tax' offset created by all logistics associated with Antarctic travel
So that's fine then. Carry on.
Edit: just for clarity, this being the internet, yes, I'm being sarcastic, I realise this is utterly bonkers and know you do too.
TheFlyingOx
Full Member
I must ask – (if you’re not trolling) do you somehow believe the UK to be under more pressure from asylum seekers and refugees than other countries?
Not intending to get in on the whole “are we xenophobes?” debate, but I was under the impression that the UK is particularly attractive to migrants and refugees due to the language. Takes away one of the barriers one might face when relocating to a new country.
[img] 
[/img]
Should do more is probably a fair assessment.
Reality is that it's just a few countries that should the worlds refugee problem, and the UK isn't even close to being one of them.
[img] 
[/img]
Would imagine that graph is a bit out of date as the Ukraine war will probably bring poland and the likes right up there, but the UK isn't exactly covering itself in glory there.
irc
Free Member
Really? Try living outdoors in the UK in winter and see how great it is. I can think of many places where the climate is more tolerable. It’s looking like £2000 heating bills this coming year to cope with the climate.
Sounds better if you're a member of the professional* classes to be able to afford to live comfortably at a price rather than not have access to things like
Plus cheap food, drinkable tap water, constant electricity, fairly reliable public services.
All of which are absolutely affected by:
None of which are anything to do with climate.
*or are you in the Donald Trumpian mindest that everyone south of us isn't the "brightest or the best".
Fundamentally the answer is one of 2 things or preferably both
1. Reduce the amount of stuff / person consumed
2. Reduce the population that are consuming the stuff
The first one wont happen because there isn’t a single company in the world that wants to reduce its sales and produce less. Given the lobby power of business on government that ain’t going to happen
The second wont happen because people want to have children which will then perpetuates the population problem. Even the most ardent eco protestor still wants to but stuff and have children. You only have to watch the protests to see how much consumption goes into each protest
'Really? Try living outdoors in the UK in winter and see how great it is. I can think of many places where the climate is more tolerable. It’s looking like £2000 heating bills this coming year to cope with the climate'
And your cold winters are going to have increasingly hard and frequent cold snaps that might not be so snaplike.. the UK will get increasingly extreme weather events.
Luckily all the poor people in other, very heavily affected countries are obviously going to keep on sitting at home and die so the UK isn't too stressed 😉
If you want to see how good or bad you've been, try here:
https://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx
thisisnotaspoon
Full MemberOther than lowering your carbon footprint by not buying carbon intensive products.
Which would achieve nothing. As already explained, I can reduce my climate impact to literally nothing and it will not change anything except for making my life worse.
Continuing the myth of individual consumer action to help the climate is basically choosing to be on the side of global warming, and being a useful stan for the institutions that actually cause the harm and won't change, and for the governments that won't do their jobs. I'm not sure why you'd do that.
But my question to thedisappearingartist wasn’t ‘is the UK attractive to economic migrants?’ - my question was:
I must ask – (if you’re not trolling) do you somehow believe the UK to be under more pressure from asylum seekers and refugees than other countries?
My original statement regarding the projected increase in climate-refugees (and the associated increase in dehumanising of refugees) was not in reference to the UK but globally. Although the UK does seem to kick up a massive stink and many/the media like to paint a picture that blighty is bursting at the seams with refugees and that we ‘do more than our fair share’.
A quick scan of which countries host the largest populations of refugees/asylum-seekers per capita would be useful for those who like to paint pictures.
Dad, why aren’t we in the top ten? I thought we carried the weight of the World in Old Blighty?
Bottom line is that climate-crisis and associated displacement is an ever-growing gift-horse/free-ride for Nationalist/populist politics and resultant ghettoising/conflicts/genocides.
The climate/ecosystem is cooked, but us humans aren’t finished messing each other up yet. Looking 25 years ahead do you really think there will be a (sic,sic,sic) sea-change in Nationalism vs humanitarianism?
BBC2 now .... Big Oil v The World
Compelling viewing
Not sure if I read it wrong but I thought someone suggested earlier in the thread that cars weren't a factor in climate change.
Kept meaning to ask if they'd forgotten about the clear blue skies of lockdown?
There weren't any clouds in the sky the other day, but look toward the horizon, it's grey. There was a period in lockdown where you didn't get that. Was wonderful.
Looking 25 years ahead do you really think there will be a (sic,sic,sic) sea-change in Nationalism vs humanitarianism?
25 years? That's too short a time.
250 years perhaps after the great war.
Which "great war"?
You need to explain
Your logic does not stack up.
Why bother when you do not exist anymore?
If your ironing burns down yours and your neighbour’s house in a forest, will anyone see the ironing?
Which “great war”?
You need to explain
The future WWIII which is inevitable judging from the current political climate all over the world. Oh ya I was referring to people not easily changed.
If your ironing burns down yours and your neighbour’s house in a forest, will anyone see the ironing?
Why check the cause when an immediate action is needed? i.e. check insurance cover. The rest is history or ashes in your example.
So why 250 years after that war?
What are you actually trying to say as it's really not clear to most of us on here?
I suggest that you read this self-help book ... you'd actually be helping everyone you interact with on here
So why 250 years after that war?
That is the time our mind perhaps improve a little to understand each other whatever they are and perhaps to co-operate.
What are you actually trying to say as it’s really not clear to most of us on here?
I was referring to the notion of nationalism vs humanitarianism co-operation whatever ...
I suggest that you read this self-help book … you’d actually be helping everyone you interact with on here
LOL! I rather leave it to others and if they understand me that's good otherwise so be it.
Life is too short and with the blink of an eye we cease to exist.
Life is too short and with the blink of an eye we cease to exist.
Please blink
Please blink
LOL!
To consider the future beyond your present life span (50 to 60 years left?) is illogical as the "memory" no longer exist.
You're still failing the Turing test
You’re still failing the Turing test
LOL!
I have failed many tests in this life another failed is just that.
https://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspxI can offset my 10k annual driving miles for £40. Bargain!