[Closed] Cliff!

But his spokesman has always said the claims are completely false? 😀

who knows what lurks in the Shadows.

That's really bad.
I've got no time for him, but, he really shouldnt be accused of these things unless he has been charged.
Imagine if it was you - taken in for questioning, then the Police say publicly that they are submitting the file for possible prosecution - then, what happens if the CPS come back and say there are no charges to answer - sh*t sticks and you get the abuse from all quarters, when you may not have done anythung wrong.

[i][b]The strange prescience of the Young Ones.......Comic Relief 1986[/b][/i]

Neil: Don't do the song, right, I've got some really heavy news about Cliff that's gonna completely blow your mi... what's that smell?

Rick & Vyvyan: Neil, go away![Audience awws.]

Neil: Don't patronise me, you bastards! Oh, yeah, let's all sit in rows and ruin Neil's evening!

Rick: What's the message, Neil?

Neil: Oh, yeah, the message about Cliff, right, er... Cliff's blown out the gig.

Rick: What? You mean he's... farted?

Neil: No, no, Cliff can't come.

Rick: Why?

Neil: He's doing time.

Rick: They put him in prison for farting?! Right on!

That's really bad.
I've got no time for him, but, he really shouldnt be accused of these things unless he has been charged.
Imagine if it was you - taken in for questioning, then the Police say publicly that they are submitting the file for possible prosecution - then, what happens if the CPS come back and say there are no charges to answer - sh*t sticks and you get the abuse from all quarters, when you may not have done anythung wrong.

The police have said nothing beyond [i]"Investigation files relating to allegations of non-recent sexual abuse involving a 75-year-old man have been handed over to the CPS."[/i].

If he's been named it's because someone in his staff has issued a press release saying it's him.

If he's been named it's because someone in his staff has issued a press release saying it's him.

What would be the motivation to do that? It only shows him in a bad light.
I'd guess that it was someone in the Police who had leaked it, though they reckon they are cracking down on that.
And no, I'm not defending him, but, it should not be public unless he has been charged.

who knows what lurks in the Shadows.

That's really bad.

I expected to read he had joined the 2016 celebrity deathlist! 😯

"it should not be public unless he has been charged."

This.

I'm sure all the evidence collected is an accurate representation of the situation which occurred.

South Yorkshire Police force did the investigation work, who better.

South Yorkshire Police force did the investigation work, who better.

😯

Sounds like you're stuffed Cliff old bean.

'Once in every lifetime comes a love like this!' 😉
[img] [/img]

"it should not be public unless he has been charged."

Fancy the South Yorkshire Police not following the very letter of the law?! i'm gobsmacked!

What would be the motivation to do that? It only shows him in a bad light.

I guess because from the usual police statements that always get given out "a 75 year old man was arrested in Yorkshire at 3am for indecent exposure to a badger" that everyone would 'know' it was Cliff in the same way whenever there's an injunction it's pretty clear who it was and who/what they did. So he's still trying to put his version in the press (which means admitting that it's his case being passed to the CPS).

[EDITED...maybe not.]

sh*t sticks and you get the abuse from all quarters, when you may not have done anythung wrong.

True but part of the rational is to get other victims to come forward
As I understand it the more folk saying the same thing happened, in a similar way, the more certain the accusation/evidence.

Its one of those as both approaches have weaknesses

"As I understand it the more folk saying the same thing happened, in a similar way, the more certain the accusation/evidence."

Hmmmmmm.

Seeing as how the paedos tend to be very old and suddenly die before they are prosecuted, does this mean that Cliff might have a "heart attack" later this year?

If he is one, then the circles he's mixed in would give him lots of dirt to swap for an easier time. Cue mortality. 🙂

My wife's aunt had some success in a Christian folk band in the 70s
They worked with Cliff at the BBC, a lad from the youth choir claimed to have slept with Cliff, but it was dismissed by everyone at the time as fantasy....

Nice wee anecdote kimbers, and just goes to show the veracity of junkyards assertion.

Although I'm unsure of the relevance unless the chorister was underage which you've neglected to mention.
Otherwise all I'm getting from your story is a slight whiff of homophobia. 😕

Its one of those as both approaches have weaknesses

Another one of those rare moments when I have to agree with JY.

True but part of the rational is to get other victims to come forward

The fantasists and gold diggers too.

Una Stubbs! oh great we can all play charades.

Sorry my completely unsubstantiated tale was about an ttenage boy.(t tho the law has obviously changed sincewud slll b ileegal)

It's something the aunt in question only brought up after they raided his home last time.

I'm interested to see how this pans out, having heard rumours years ago. However I'm not very comfortable with some of the recent convictions for offences committed 30+ years ago where the evidence boils down to the testimony of one person as has happened recently.

Oh Cliff
Sometimes it must be difficult not to feel as if
You really are a cliff
When fascists keep trying to push you over it
Are they the lemmings?
Or are you cliff?
Or are you, Cliff?

He was always a bit suspect as he never had any partners, everyone has a sex drive, it's a primal urge. imo he's repressed homosexual who can't live with the guilt of being born 'wrong,'* hence all the vehement christianity. 'I can't possibly be gay because I'm a good christian,'

*I don't think it's wrong.

everyone has a sex drive,

You've obviously never met my wife 😥

Or he did something very bad a long time ago and it's put him off the whole business. We'll have to wait and see.

I'm not very comfortable with some of the recent convictions for offences committed 30+ years ago where the evidence boils down to the testimony of one person as has happened recently.

I'm quite happy that it's possible for these victims to get justice after such a long time, and having had their lives ruined in many cases.

asexual
e??s?ksj??l,-???l/Submit
adjective
1.
without sexual feelings or associations.
"she wore a grey frock, discreet and asexual"
2.
BIOLOGY
(of reproduction) not involving the fusion of gametes.
noun
1.
a person who has no sexual feelings or desires.

Lol at zanelad!

THanks for that insight Mr Freud.

No PRoblem

"You've obviously never met my wife"

She goes like the clappers with me.

"I'm not very comfortable with some of the recent convictions for offences committed 30+ years ago where the evidence boils down to the testimony of one person as has happened recently."

This.

WHich case was just the testimony of one person?

The freud comment was aimed at jekkyl posts which was the one I replied to - though other posted whilst I was trying. I might have been distracted by cake

"WHich case was just the testimony of one person?"

One of the charges against Harris was one person's memory with no other evidence and one of the charges against Stuart Hall was one girl's word. I'm pretty sure he had no memory of it at all, he must have pleaded guilty to it on the basis that it was the sort of thing he used to do.

It's not the standard of justice we should expect in the UK.

That's a tricky one, as in both instances, there is several other victims with multiple similar allegations; no doubt all have been extensively cross examined to ensure credibility.

Cliff Richard's links to Lord Boothby and the Krays are relevant here, along with his friendship with Jill Dando... whether those elements have been sufficiently investigated remains to be seen.

I'll still listen to his wonderful records even if he is a nonce.

I made the original comment re one persons testimony - I've seen a case online recently - i'll try and remember where i saw it.

Meanwhile:
http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/ipswich_man_77_in_court_over_historic_sex_assault_on_young_girl_in_the_1960s_1_4315128 - i can't find the result for this - but if found not guilty his life has been ruined.

I am not condoning sexual assault in any way , I'm just very uncomfortable about cases that rely solely on individual testimony about events in the distant past. Memories can get distorted, exaggerated etc. The principle of beyond reasonable doubt seems strained in those circumstances.

you are going to have to be considerably less vague than that- which person, what offence, what conviction what trial etc.

Stuart Hall was one girl's word. I'm pretty sure he had no memory of it at all, he must have pleaded guilty to it on the basis that it was the sort of thing he used to do

I'm just very uncomfortable about cases that rely solely on individual testimony about events in the distant past. Memories can get distorted, exaggerated etc.

Its also unrealistic to think there will be any physical evidence after 30 years.By this argument Saville is innocent as there is no physical proof just witness testimony.

One of those that is why we have court and juries to decide if the tales are true or false.

Rollerskating with women in different coloured leotards? Definately a sexual deviant.

JHJ - Cliff and Jill Dando's death, care to elaborate?

That's what google is for...

In the meantime, though not every element can be verified, there are many truths in this:

It has been alleged that she was about to blow the lid on the elm guest house story, where children were brought for VIPs to abuse, incl Richards, savile, Cyril smith etc

Jive, that video is ridiculous,,, Cliff used to piss on Melvyn Bragg!? lol.

Its also unrealistic to think there will be any physical evidence after 30 years.By this argument Saville is innocent as there is no physical proof just witness testimony.

There is a whole heap of difference between 1 person only making an allegation against one other person and multiple persons making the similar allegations over a number of years against the same person.

what exactly are you claiming happened to make folk exaggerate from an event to a sexual assault

http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/24/student-lied-about-rape-so-she-could-re-sit-failed-a-level-5583832/

http://www.gmp.police.uk/live/nhoodv3.nsf/WebsitePages/1AFEF388FE15068180257F8B00765500?OpenDocument

I could easily find other examples. Yes courts and juries do make decisions, but the can and do make illogical decisions, especially if it's solely based on testimony of one witness against the defendant, based on emotion, prejudice and a host of other factors. I still remain uncomfortable about cases where the alleged offence took place many years ago where the only witness is the victim and there is no physical evidence or history of offences on the part of the defendant or multiple allegations from other victims.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

If he's been named it's because someone in his staff has issued a press release saying it's him.

Well. You might think so, but remember when they decided to raid his flat and mysteriously the press got there first?

Having worked with a member of staff who had to have treatment for false memory syndrome where she thought she'd been abused, I have some concerns about historic abuse allegations, but as others have said, it is rarely just one person's word against another.

I'm not sure how you square the circle regarding protecting the identity of the accused and enabling other victims to come forward. In this internet age presumption of innocence risks being lost.

And while I would like all victims to be able to get justice and compensation, it boils my piss when the first thing you see is the solicitor for the victims on the telly. A friend at a local authority deals with their abuse claims, some of the chancers really undermine the genuine victims, wasting valuable time and money that the genuine victims deserve.

Is there any way that he could have a fair trial now? Stupid reporting or a cleverly planned plot to avoid conviction? Makes you think.....

In the meantime, though not every element can be verified, there are many truths in this

A video with photos and some words but no actually proof.

Strangely, I don't think any of these celeb cases have used the argument that they couldn't get a fair trial, at least not successfully. I'm not sure if/how/when that applies these days.

That's what google is for...

"Its also unrealistic to think there will be any physical evidence after 30 years."

Diary entries from the time, evidence that corroborate the location of the perpetrator at the time of the attack, pregnancy, souvenirs given to the victim, telling people at the time. There is sometimes evidence and when you have many hundreds making the accusations you only need a tiny percentage with some hard evidence to get some safe convictions.

But, either way, the solution to lack of evidence is not to convict anyway.

There is a whole heap of difference between 1 person only making an allegation against one other person and multiple persons making the similar allegations over a number of years against the same person.

I have never denied folk lie and in all those cases the court system worked so its a bit daft to use them as proof. False claims are incredibly rare and its unlikely, to put it mildly, to be the case that all those who come forward are making it up which is what the slur is here.

I think we all can see both sides and we need some balance between these two extremes of no proof/just someone word so let them walk v well they said it so its true

The current system has a very difficult balancing act and it does it well
Its massively unrealistic to expect physical evidence after 30 years,sets the bar too high and allows offenders to walk free.

A video with photos and some words but no actually proof.

Sometimes it's just a matter of digging a little deeper to verify (or otherwise) what's being said:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5907125/Letters-shed-new-light-on-Kray-twins-scandal.html ]Letters shed new light on Kray twins scandal[/url]

The previously-unseen notes appear to show that Boothby, a former MP and aide to Winston Churchill, wrongly received a £40,000 libel payout from a newspaper that had linked him with the Krays.

Allegations surrounding "the peer and the gangster" emerged in 1964 at a time when Westminster was still reeling from the Profumo Affair.

When the Sunday Mirror reported in July 1964 that Scotland Yard was investigating a homosexual relationship between an unnamed peer and a major figure in the criminal underworld, suspicion fell on Boothby and on Kray, who, together with his twin brother Reggie, was building a reputation for running protection rackets and dishing out violence to those who stood in his way.

However, Boothby chose to go public with a letter to The Times in which he denied being homosexual and stated that he had only ever met Kray three times, always to discuss business matters and always in the company of other people.

Facing the threat of a libel defeat, the Sunday Mirror issued an apology to the peer and paid out £40,000, equivalent to £500,000 today. The newspaper's editor, Reg Payne, lost his job over the affair.

Yet a newly-uncovered letter sent by Boothby to Kray shows that the two men were friends, and were making social arrangements, more than a year before the peer won his payout.

On notepaper carrying his address in Eaton Square, Belgravia, Boothby wrote to Kray on June 6, 1963: [b]"Thank you for your postcard. I very nearly went to Jersey myself, as I have never been there, and hear from so many people that it is quite delightful."[/b]

"If you are free tomorrow evening between six and seven, do come round for a drink and a chat."

The brief note is signed: "Ever sincerely, Boothby."

The letters, which are being put up for sale by an anonymous vendor, shed new light on one of the murkiest episodes in the career of the Kray twins.

Since described as the "pervert peer" in reference to his sexual proclivities, Boothby was shouted down in the Lords in February 1965 for demanding that the Krays should be released on bail after their arrest and charge for running the protection racket.

Another letter from Boothby to Kray, dated April 1965 on House of Lords notepaper, says: "I have had a great many letters congratulating me on the stand I took in the House of Lords on your behalf; and that some of their Lordships are now a bit ashamed of the treatment they gave me."

It adds: "I think that they will now leave you alone. And you never can say that I haven't done my best."

Mention of Jersey is especially concerning, [url= http://news.sky.com/story/1530217/edward-heath-five-police-forces-investigating ]given the allegations surrounding Haut De La Garenne, including involvement of Jimmy Savile and Edward Heath[/url]:

In a statement, Jersey Police said: "Sir Edward Heath does feature as part of Operation Whistle, currently investigating historical allegations of abuse in Jersey."

The force says the allegations of abuse involve 13 "people of public prominence".

Many of the claims centre on the Haut de la Garenne children's home, which closed in 1986.

The home was said to have been "frequented" by Jimmy Savile, who has been accused of abusing youngsters there.

US Newsweek reporter Leah Goodman has claimed she was told of allegations against Sir Edward on Jersey in 2011.

But she says she was then thrown out of the UK for investigating them.

She told Sky News: "(Police officers investigating claims at the children's home) had heard the rumours and I know a few of the senior members of the police believed that (Heath) was at it.

"The yachting culture had long been known for bringing boys and other children out on boats into international waters ... murky legalities ... it was a place where it was understood people couldn't escape.

"I know Edward Heath was involved in the yachting culture on the island."

[url= http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trenches-filled-with-lime-found-at-jersey-house-of-horrors-care-home-6693782.html ]
pits filled with lime[/url]:

Two secret pits filled with a substance that can be used to decompose bodies have been found in the grounds of the Jersey care home where child remains were found.

The mysterious trenches - one measuring 5ft deep - were filled with lime, which destroys flesh and bones.

and allegedly being the location of some [url= https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/tag/zandvoort/ ]very vile acts[/url]:

VILE pictures of babies being raped were taken for a child porn ring at the Jersey kids’ home of horror, police feared last night.

Experts think the home is the source of many of the network’s 9,000 sick pictures, discovered in an infamous haul in Holland in the Nineties.It was dubbed the Zandvoort stash, after the town where it was found- but the studio was never uncovered.

Experts are now 90 per cent certain it was the baby unit at Haut de la Garenne’s Aviemore wing. Some of the victims in the black and white pictures were just 18 months old.

Now, bear in mind this was written long before either the Jersey Abuse Inquiry or the investigation into Edward Heath began:

[url= http://google-law.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/jummy-savile-edward-heath-and-kray-twins.html ]Jimmy Savile, Edward Heath and the Kray twins[/url]

It was also written long before this telegraph piece:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11948323/lord-boothby-sex-parties-ronnie-kray-mi5-documents.html ]
The Spy Files: Lord Boothby's sordid sex parties with Ronnie Kray revealed in MI5 files[/url]

love all this stuff Jive, keep it coming. Everyone likes a story and it's very easy to believe, wonder if it's all true.

I'll save Cliff's pal Billy Graham for another day:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Awwww, go on, Jive, it's raining and your last contribution kept me busy for an hour.

No can do... as a consolation, here's further confirmation of correspondence between Cliff Richard and the Krays:

[url= http://www.standard.co.uk/news/ronnie-kray-s-letter-of-praise-for-cliff-richard-6527292.html ]Ronnie Kray’s letter of praise for Cliff Richard[/url]

A Collection of personal items that belonged to gangster twins Ronnie and Reggie Kray has sold for more than £20,000 at auction.

They include a misspelt letter from Ronnie, who reveals delight at being contacted by Cliff Richard.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8074918/Kray-twins-memorabilia-sold-at-auction.html ]
Kray twins memorabilia sold at auction[/url]

In another error-strewn letter written from the jail to Mr Pearson in January 1969, Ronnie reveals his pleasure at receiving a letter from singer Cliff Richard.

He wrote: "John, I had a verry nice letter from Cliff Ritchards. I thought it was marvoulas of him to write to me at a time like this."

These are the photos from the latter article...

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

This one wasn't included in the article:

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=Z0zsWpN2ukUDXYqF4boPJbVgRxuZDQSkkX0XiG4SA29U34m5P7j84awUM6IdeuAz337H1yz%2F5O621maHDww1xg%3D%3D[/img]

What hit rate is JHJ working on? For all the detractors, looking back he's doing pretty well.

What hit rate is JHJ working on? For all the detractors, looking back he's doing pretty well

I don't really have a strong opinion on his theories. I have an opinion on how people dismiss what he says and how rude they are. It's like TJ though, if your opinion doesn't fit with the clique then it's open season for abuse.

Its nothing like that - though there is some bullying to be fair.

Basically if you spout utter BS you will be called out for it

You have agreed with some of his outlandish musings on here hence you think his strike rate is something worthy of praise

Basically if you spout utter BS you will be called out for it

I just let you get on with it, Junky, on the basis that other people can read, use a search engine and think for themselves. 💡

Now this is just fair comment and not bullying. jhj's post either disturb me or make me laugh, whatever the truth he must live in a scarey world. Keep em coming though as I enjoy reading the guff that the interweb was invented for.

So who murdered Jill Dando anyway?

And why?

Not me.

Or was it?

Someone knows far to much

So there was a professional hit on a well known TV presenter and no-one has any idea who did it, or why?

fourbanger - Member

I don't really have a strong opinion on his theories. I have an opinion on how people dismiss what he says and how rude they are.

He constantly derails and destroys conversations. That's way ruder than most of the responses.

My mate who's a senior copper was absolutely certain that Barry George was guilty of her murder

I still think cliffs dodgy tho

it's like trying to work out game of thrones plotlines. Did Cliff seek out her friendship because she had the info on his nefarious past involving the elm guest house? perhaps he provided more info to bolster her case.
The full list of names of those who were purported to have attended the sessions held there and therefore potentially guilty of hiring a hit on Ms Dando. [url= https://cigpapers.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/the-elm-guest-house-vip-paedophile-party-list/ ]here[/url]

He constantly derails and destroys conversations. That's way ruder than most of the responses.

But not nearly as rude as the organized abuse of children, which the authorities have helped cover up for decades...

Anyhow, back to the conversation, before it was derailed;

Of course, Barry George is far from an angel (though there are several factors which suggest he's not the culprit) and I don't believe for a second that Cliff was the killer, however, we still need a motive.

Say for example Cliff was part of a wider network...

(A matter which is continuously played down, despite the existence of organizations such as the Paedophile Information Exchange and their links to several key players in the bigger picture)

He constantly derails and destroys conversations. That's way ruder than most of the responses.

I think you needs to go back and look at his posts in light of new evidence.

So there was a professional hit on a well known TV presenter and no-one has any idea who did it, or why?

Well, I should imagine that if you went back over all her appearances on "Crimewatch" you could draw up quite a long "shortlist" 😕

A friend of ours was at the BBC at the time, and knew Jill from her days on local news. I'm pretty sure that if she was on the point of exposing a big VIP paedophile ring, her colleagues would have blown the story wide open.

You'd also think that the story of Jimmy Savile would've been blown wide open long ago... or the countless other cases where police investigations were shut down.

When a prominent national celebrity is killed in broad daylight by a hitman and the killer never found, it might discourage anyone being too forthright with what they know.

[quote=fourbanger ]I think you needs to go back and look at his posts in light of new evidence.

The evidence being that you are STW secong biggest conspiracist ?

This is not new