You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Just got two from two consecutive days in Bath in September when attending a wedding.
I didn't know it was even a thing!
If I new I was in a CAZ, I would have paid the £9 for each day as driving my van.
Now I have two PCN's through the door wanting £60 each plus £9 each and doubled if no paid within 14 days.
I genuinely didn't even see any signs and didn't know this scheme was in Bath.
Most be lots of unaware people getting chunky fines.
Anyone else think that google maps should make you aware and suggest alternative routes.
Just bite the bullet and pay, I suppose...Just feel a bit jipped...
I genuinely didn’t even see any signs and didn’t know this scheme was in Bath.
I had similar feelings about the new bus gates in Glasgow.
Until I looked at the lovely picture of my car driving past two signs, one on each side of the road and a large red painted box in the junction also warning me.
Shoulda gone to specsavers.
Doesn't Google maps pop up with "this route has tolls" or some such warning?
I had this in bath the other day - sat nav want me to drive through the CAZ. I luckily realised and stopped just before the signs and did a u turn - the signs aren't particularly clear tbf.
Probably right about my lack of observation Matt.
If I new I had gone into this area, I would have paid the £9 charge for each day and not ignored it.
There must be a lot of cheesed off people getting a shock through the post.
Seems like a council money maker...
Until I looked at the lovely picture of my car driving past two signs, one on each side of the road and a large red painted box in the junction also warning me.
Shoulda gone to specsavers.
I did the same thing in Warrington. Ironically, I had been visiting SpecSavers...
It's simply another tax. Wish they'd call it what it is.
**duplicate post*
Yep. It's a good tax. It's pro clean air and environment.
Between 28,000 and 36,000 people die each year from air pollution in the UK. More than ten times the rate of those killed in vehicle collisions.
I got a letter from Bristol about their incoming CAZ last week saying I'd driven through it - and if I do it again after the end of November I'll have to pay a charge.
There's absolutely a better way of doing this - registering your number plate and automatic notification to your mobile / email / maybe even a direct debit. And yep, councils are councils and will always profiteer.
You could, of course, get a less polluting EURO6 car. Or an EV.
If not, tax is due. And polluter pays principle for the win tbpfh. 🙂
I got a letter from Bristol about their incoming CAZ last week saying I’d driven through it – and if I do it again after the end of November I’ll have to pay a charge.
I wonder if I will get one as I drove through it on Friday. The signs in Bristol were pretty clear and I stopped before the zone to check how much it would cost. I ended up on a road above the Avon gorge and stopped to admire the view so it actually turned out to be a good result.
If not, tax is due. And polluter pays principle for the win tbpfh. 🙂
We already pay a tax based on the size and emissions of vehicles owned/operated.
This is money grabbing dressed up as 'good'.
I think that the scheme is good in principal.
People will adjust their routes and pollute other areas which will displace the traffic/air problem.
Not great for people that can not afford a new EV or newer car or need a van for work.
Great for getting more people to cycle and people that do cycle have cleaner air than being sat behind a bus.
Im all for cleaner air and this is a step in the right direction, but the execution is poor when implementing the scheme.
@relapsed_mandalorian - all I can really say is "ah diddums".
We need to drive less. People are dying. Trying to care about this, but really can't bring myself to.
Like I said - better implementation? Yep. People don't need stuff coming through the door at hella inflated prices. But other than that. Tough boobies tbh.
There’s absolutely a better way of doing this – registering your number plate and automatic notification to your mobile / email / maybe even a direct debit. And yep, councils are councils and will always profiteer.
There's a multitude of back-office systems behind all these schemes, they're not consistent at all and then you start running into GDPR stuff too. Especially with hire cars, vehicles with multiple drivers (family car, fleet vehicles, buses...) that make that approach slightly impractical.
Councils rarely make much money off it, partly due to high rates of compliance anyway (ie, many vehicles being driven in the zone are exempt) and partly due to the sunk costs of installation and maintenance. Any excess is legally ringfenced for traffic schemes, it cannot be spent on the Chief Exec's bonus or the office Christmas party.
I thought the signage in Bath was pretty good, the scheme was in place when I cycled through there in September last year. 🤷🏻♂️
Seems like a council money maker…
Yes its a positive way of making money though, rather than a negative like speeding etc.
One of the reasons I gave up taxi work was the introduction of CAZ areas in Bristol & Bath made my part time buisness less profitable - which is probably a good thing, one less car in the raod etc.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Its not a swindle, its not a money making exercise, its a life saving exercise
Its been widely publicised. There are warning signs well before you enter the zone
https://goo.gl/maps/2KuzpbuiJ7ekhjZz8
And more warning signs before you enter
https://goo.gl/maps/FW5YmAtuji2voAmq7
And signs as you actually enter the zone - these could be bigger for sure
https://goo.gl/maps/FW5YmAtuji2voAmq7
But you will have driven past multiple signs before entering the zone
Edit - messed up the links but you get the point
I've driven into Bath a fair few times in the past year, and there's plenty of signs - both CAZ ahead and at the bondaries. I did accidentally enter once (ironically, I needed fuel but didn't realise the Sainsbury's entrance was just inside the perimeter), but it was obvious where the boundary was once I reached it so just paid the same day.
It only targets pre-Euro 6 diesel and pre-Euro 4 petrol vehicles, so seems a good way to improve the terrible air quality in inner city areas. General taxation is too general - this is to target the particular problem of air quality, not the general problem of CO2e.
It's worrying that you can miss all of the signs and cameras - what else aren't you seeing?
We already pay a tax based on the size and emissions of vehicles owned/operated.
But not based on driving around daily in a built up area slowly killing the inhabitants there. These taxes are needed to deter and reduce polluters in certain areas. But a smart way of collecting them without threatening fines is also needed.
Its not a swindle, its not a money making exercise, its a life saving exercise
🤣
You come out with some absolute corkers. Nearly choked on my toast reading that.
You think people aren't dying due to traffic fumes in cities? Your toast isn't the problem.
One way to right the injustice, if only on a cosmic, karmic level as opposed to personal financial reimbursement is to leave ones car idling on the drive overnight, or 24 hours in the OP's case. Yes it costs you money but it means you can sleep soundly.
For the record, I agree with the clean air zones and much more focus on cities (with such traffic and people density, with corresponding short journeys) having restrictions on the most polluting cars and private cars in general.
We already pay a tax based on the size and emissions of vehicles owned/operated.
They might label it that, but not if your euro6, nice low emissions vehicle is worth more than £40k new otr. You then have to pay an additional £350 or similar for the first 5years FFS!
You think people aren’t dying due to traffic fumes in cities?
It's probably more that charging sleepy van drivers £9 isn't making any difference to air quality. But that wouldn't let you be so dramatic.
We have been swindled around here. Just over 10 miles from Manchester there are CAZ signs everywhere and cameras all over.
But it's not active and a complete white elephant to keep prize tool Burnham in the news
It’s probably more that charging sleepy van drivers £9 isn’t making any difference to air quality. But that wouldn’t let you be so dramatic.
Er... sleepy van drivers should pull over and have a rest. On the complaints about signage not being clear, I agree that when new to an area, or if the zoning is new, it can be missed or misunderstood at first... but it isn't a trap, a scam, or a swindle... it's just new. Complaints about additional charges if getting it wrong are valid, in my opinion. There should be a way to collect the polluter tax without having to send out threatening letters with ridiculously high additional charges. Anyway, what's your plan to reduce pollution from traffic in built up areas where it's currently well above safe levels? Just ignore it and carry on...?
Is that the Manchester City Centre CAZ that stretches half way to Sheffield?
We have been swindled around here. Just over 10 miles from Manchester there are CAZ signs everywhere and cameras all over.But it’s not active and a complete white elephant to keep prize tool Burnham in the news
Pre-Covid, central Government mandated the implementation of CAZ in various cities due to the illegally high levels of NOx in particular which is almost exclusively traffic generated.
Manchester was a very complex bit of design because it's 10 boroughs. There was then a long consultation process, complicated by the referendum response a decade earlier about introducing Congestion Charging which got a resounding No answer so there were allegations that this was CC by another method.
Anyway, then Covid hit, then there was a backlash about CAZ impacting the economic recovery, no longer being the right tool for the job etc so Government agreed that it could be paused while a more workable solution was found.
It's still up in the air now, a whole load of extra signage to cover up the original ones...
20y old BMW is still exempt. 🙂
In fairness, it's been into Bath and Bristol only once per place in the past year.
It’s still up in the air now, a whole load of extra signage to cover up the original ones…
Just do what they did in Bradford when they couldn't get the cameras installed in time; wrap them in black polly bags.
Although that causes a pollution of a different kind, and some of the signs are still wrapped although it's now live. 🤣
Yep. Still struggling to care. They should crack on and do it and use any money from it to make cycle lanes and insulate houses.
People who don't pay on time should just be shot to help with the overpopulation problem 😉
20y old BMW is still exempt. 🙂
That's what I found strange too - my 17y old Vauxhall with a big V8 emitting almost 400g co2/km was exempt from most CAZs, but not all. Not that I drove it far enough to reach most of the CAZs.
People who don’t pay on time should just be shot to help with the overpopulation problem
Reasonable.
There’s absolutely a better way of doing this – registering your number plate and automatic notification to your mobile / email / maybe even a direct debit. And yep, councils are councils and will always profiteer.
I'd agree having had to pay £60 for missing a Toll on Merseyside. To be fair I knew I had to pay it, then 3 hours later got to my destination and forgot all about it until the letter arrived a few weeks later.
It’s simply another tax. Wish they’d call it what it is.
It's not really a tax though is it. More like a fine.
And a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of sorting the damage.
I thought the only city outside London with a private car CAZ is Birmingham?
Aye, most are LGV/HGV targeted.
I thought the only city outside London with a private car CAZ is Birmingham?
Bristol has a CAZ coming into force at the end of this month which is private car as well. £9.
Class C CAZ = LGV/HGV/van/taxi
Class D CAZ = Class C plus private cars as well.
Yes I know that's the 28th Nov with a £9 charge, but I guess other posters who either turned back or paid must have been vans?
Between 28,000 and 36,000 people die each year from air pollution in the UK. More than ten times the rate of those killed in vehicle collisions.
They should really ban log burners then, as they contribute more than 50% of all PM10s in UK cities now...
If we're still talking about Bath, it's a "Smoke Control Area", so fines are available for dirty burning. Go further and ban all log burners in the zone as well? It'll come one day... doesn't mean that road traffic pollution shouldn't be subjected to "polluter pays" measures now, especially commercial stuff.
it’s a “Smoke Control Area”, so fines are available for dirty burning. Go further and band all log burners in the zone as well?
The Defra approved "clean" burn models are anything but 'clean' - they pump out PM10s continually.
doesn’t mean that road traffic pollution shouldn’t be subjected to “polluter pays” measures now, especially commercial stuff.
No, but we have this weird situation where people are installing log burners in bath, which pump out orders or magnitude more PM10s than the cars they are trying to discourage with their road tax scheme, whilst thinking they are doing the right thing. They're actually making pollution worse....
Log burners are worse than multiple diesel lorry engines...
So if you actually wanted to reduce air pollution - you'd go after the log burners first.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Bans on all log burners in cities badly hit by pollution will come at some point I suspect. "No burn" days, when pollution is at its worst, should be happening now. It just isn't relevant as regards commercial traffic in cities, and how to reduce their contribution to city pollution.
Well I'm glad I looked at this thread...I have to drive to Bristol airport on 1st weekend of Dec. Seems a bit strange to have the ring road/bypass (A3029) included in the CAZ....I could avoid it by driving thru the north and east of the city, but seems to defeat the purpose!
Class C coming to Sheffield in spring 2023 (though has been delayed multiple times). Personally I wish they’d gone further and made it class D, that’s the only way to tackle the hordes of drivers in single occupancy cars creating merry hell each morning and get them on public transport or active travel.
No, but we have this weird situation where people are installing log burners in bath, which pump out orders or magnitude more PM10s than the cars they are trying to discourage with their road tax scheme, whilst thinking they are doing the right thing.
Last time I checked, log burners didn't sit in lines outside schools puffing away nor did they cause congestion, traffic collisions, road wear etc.
I get your argument, I don't disagree with it but addressing traffic pollution also addresses a host of other issues around health, physical activity, active travel, congestion, traffic delays...
I got the bristol letter the other day too.
I'm conflicted. I know exactly why it's being done, and I know why they've made the process as they have.
However I still feel the implementation is terrible. It should be seamless as possible - ie tag based, perhaps (like toll roads in europe) for regular users, or tied to license plates. There will be so many people who, for whatever reason, forget to head to an obscure website, or accidentally nip through the zone's more weird extensions down side streets (bath petrol station above as an example).
My main issue is that it focusses the extra cost on those least able to afford it - those who cannot afford a newer vehicle, and those who need to work in the centre of town at less sociable hours, who may therefore not be able, or feel comfortable, using public transport (I'm sure many on here would sneer at those situations, cos we're mostly middle aged, wealthy, blokes).
from a purely air quality POV it's fair enough. but socially, it's not equitable. The government's job is to ensure a healthy atmosphere, but also strive towards a more equitable society. Right now, the poorest are being forced either out of cities, or onto other forms of public transport that may, or may not, be appropriate for their situation.
A congestion charge, of a lower amount, that covers all road users is a far fairer system, that would help discourage all road users from the city centre, rather than just those who can't afford it.
i'll be paying the charge in bristol - i have a van as a 'personal' vehicle, without which i couldn't actually do my job. Fortunately I rarely drive into the city for personal reasons so I'll be expensing the vast majority of my CAZ charges.
I do wonder, though, whether the money poured into these schemes would be better used subsidising electric bikes (cargo or otherwise) - currently the most sustainable form of EV transport, and yet the only EV without any subsidy...
and yet the only EV without any subsidy…
Apart from cycle to work schemes
Last time I checked, log burners didn’t sit in lines outside schools puffing away nor did they cause congestion, traffic collisions, road wear etc.
No, but they do pump out a lot of carcinogenic PM10s which those school children will breath in - unless bath schools have their own air supply....
I do wonder, though, whether the money poured into these schemes would be better used subsidising electric bikes (cargo or otherwise) – currently the most sustainable form of EV transport, and yet the only EV without any subsidy…
In principle I can understand the rationale but you’ve also got to make getting in the car less attractive. Most people discount the sunk costs of car ownership entirely (as they already have it..) so just saying “look over here, you can use a slightly cheaper ebike” isn’t going to persuade them to get out of their nice warm car with heated seats and Apple CarPlay.
However I still feel the implementation is terrible. It should be seamless as possible – ie tag based, perhaps (like toll roads in europe) for regular users, or tied to license plates.
This.
Needs central government to coordinate and implement this, but they're running scared and want local politicians to take all the flak, even though they know measures are needed and are pushing local government to put them in place.
The signs say "pay online". The ones in Manchester are the same.
What if you're not online?
What Kelvin said - the other issue from the little I know of these zones is they often have different rules. There seems to be no way other than on line to pay which is a bit odd tho cars are exempt
Agreed, no need to throw out the baby with the bath water just because there’s another pollution source we also need to look at.
I commute by bike in Bristol, I’m genuinely worried that the air quality is poor enough that it’s considered detrimental to my health. Looking forward to the CAZ coming in.
How are you lefties dealing with this one? Towns tend to have the less well off who cannot afford a new car. Alright some can't afford a car at all but they are not involved in this discussion. Surely this is yet another way of having a go at the poor?
Oo er . Clash here . Eco warriors having to worry about their own polictics.
It must be a right sod if you live there and aren't well enough off to buy a new car/van.
Errmmm - urban poor are the least likely group to own a car. Urban poor are the most likely to have issues with the poor air quality. this is a pro urban poor policy
The richest groups show as not owning cars in the stats - because they lease them or own thru companies
This low emission zone excludes cars anyway. Cars are not due to pay the fees
With the Bradford CAZ residents can get an exemption for their non-compliant van, no cars are chargeable. Don't know if this is how the other schemes operate.
Low income communities are more likely to live in heavily polluted areas and as such are more likely to get respiritory disease from low air quality
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61816057
Don't you dare dress up your "need" to drive cars with concern for the lower income groups. its a complete nonsense. the folk who benefit most from these pollution control measures are the low income groups
Apart from cycle to work schemes
which are only available to salaried workers, which often have stringent cost limitations (less than electric bikes tend to cost) and some which have restrictions on your ability to purchase electrically assisted bikes.
ergo, cycle to work schemes are a red herring in the debate over subsidised EVs.
This low emission zone excludes cars anyway. Cars are not due to pay the fees
Bristol includes private cars (Euro 4 petrol or worse, Euro 6 diesel)
There's plenty of not too well off sole traders with non compliant vans in Calderdale who were really going to struggle with the huge Manchester CAZ; I assume that would be the case for many bordering it.
Plus it will be huge if it ever goes ahead.
The signs in Bath are a bit varied in their visibility but on the whole they are good. The issue is the colour they chose, it doesn't stand out so is easily missed if you're not aware of what they look like. The thing about Bath though is that it's a horrible place to drive around with it's jumbled street layout, narrow streets and hills. I hate driving round it and will avoid getting anywhere near the centre if I can help it!
My main issue is that it focusses the extra cost on those least able to afford it – those who cannot afford a newer vehicle, and those who need to work in the centre of town at less sociable hours, who may therefore not be able, or feel comfortable, using public transport (I’m sure many on here would sneer at those situations, cos we’re mostly middle aged, wealthy, blokes).
Driving round Bath and Bristol every working day it amazes me just how many really old cars, and a lot of diesels, there are in daily use. There's going to be a lot of people priced off the roads there when the Bristol one goes live.
Seems like a council money maker…
Which anyone who uses council services, which is everyone in one way or another, should applaud!
There’s plenty of not too well off sole traders with non compliant vans in Calderdale who were really going to struggle with the huge Manchester CAZ; I assume that would be the case for many bordering it.
So they will no longer be able to undercut the sole traders who are environmentally conscious and don't pollutte as much?
this is a microcosm of the bigger climate change debate. Clean air requires lifestyle change.
Just been googling this as going this weekend but no map layers! Rediculous. A few screen grabs but no simple map layers that I could find.
Bristol includes private cars (Euro 4 petrol or worse, Euro 6 diesel)
You've got the cut-off in the wrong direction. It doesn't apply to those classes or better.
There's also a ton of exemptions for things like residence and those on low income, so Matt's attempt at right-wing politicising is bollocks that could be fact-checked in about 15 seconds. I know, I was shocked too.
There’s plenty of not too well off sole traders with non compliant vans in Calderdale who were really going to struggle with the huge Manchester CAZ; I assume that would be the case for many bordering it.
Plus it will be huge if it ever goes ahead.
This is one reason these schemes bother me. I mean I support the idea in principle, we all want clean air, well they should repeal the smoking ban but that's a different conversation. Exemptions should be made for tradesmen for example. I suppose they can always pass on the cost to the customer like parking tickets. But then what's to stop every commuting office drone and boy-racer just saying "yeah I'm a plumber innit"
So they will no longer be able to undercut the sole traders who are environmentally conscious and don’t pollutte as much?
Possibly. Or, more likely, costs will be passed on if the trader thinks it's worth dumping their van and spending the £40k plus on another one.
Those who don't want to make such a massive investment will need to fold up and go find something else to do; post Brexit there's loads of minimum wage jobs going.
I wasn't arguing though, just commenting on stuff I'd heard said locally.
I don't really care if all the local one man bands go bust, it's no skin off my nose, there's always going to be someone to do the jobs that need doing.
Or, more likely, costs will be passed on if the trader thinks it’s worth dumping their van and spending the £40k plus on another one.
Thats what I meant.
There’s also a ton of exemptions for things like residence and those on low income, so Matt’s attempt at right-wing politicising is bollocks that could be fact-checked in about 15 seconds. I know, I was shocked too.
Most of which expire on the 31st March 2023
Looking at national exemptions I notice 'historic vehicle'. I wonder why more people don't run old classics? No tax, no MOT, no CAZ charges... and you're driving around in something awesome rather than a van. I'm getting an XJS V12 tomorrow!
Most of which expire on the 31st March 2023
Oh yeah, they're listed as temporary exemptions buried in the T&Cs. Mia culpa.
I wonder what happens then, whether you can just renew or whether they just stop? It doesn't say as I can see.
I’m getting an XJS V12 tomorrow!
I can see a flaw in this approach to reliable transport.
All these folk bleating about it being an additional tax on the poor. The poor don't drive into the zone, parking costs are already prohibitive. More accurately it's a tax on the wealthy folk who live in the congestion zones, who need tradesmen for their extensions and repairs to victoian houses.
Where the Bristol one is strange is the truncation of the city - there's no easy way to skirt it to the west. What you'll get is a distinct market for trades, those in the north and south sticking to jobs that are free to reach, those in the zone paying more.
. More accurately it’s a tax on the wealthy folk who live in the congestion zones,
There's a serious issue with CAZ (which is only going to get worse) that the rich can relatively easily buy themselves a compliant car and just continue to drive around, no issues, no charges. It really does penalise those people in transport poverty who rely on a car, can't afford a newer model and aren't adequately served by public transport.
And then you end up with all the negative externalities of traffic (congestion, road deaths/injuries, noise pollution etc) and no/limited income from your CAZ because every vehicle within the zone is compliant.
The problem is that our dysfunctional Government has basically offloaded all this to councils who have all come up with their own, different, systems with varying requirements and it's a bit of a mess. It would have been better to do this nationally but that would require leadership from the top and...well Tories.
crazylegs
apart from the urban poor are the least likey group to have a car and the most likely group to suffer from poor air quality. its a bogus concern
I wouldn’t belittle the danger of air quality; far more likely to be killed by that than covid even if we hadn’t had lockdowns.
That said, whilst CAZ help with this, they are more a way for left wing councils to extract some cash from those too poor to afford new cars (and therefore probably too uncultured to vote labour) whilst their middle class voters get to enjoy less congested roads whilst feeling smug about their clean new cars and low CO2 (but air quality destroying) log burners.
CAZ has also been implemented in Newcastle recently.
I want to see how the council slowly strangles the City centre to make it into a ghost town.
And yep, councils are councils and will always profiteer.
Nope. They're not allowed to.
Compliant petrol vehicles were introduced in 2005, and diesel 2015/16 so the faux concern about people having to buy new vehicles is misplaced.