Claiming expenses for work related travel...

What does your company policy say?

Honestly if it were me I'd just do it and claim it back. If they refused to reimburse me then I'd know what to say next time I was asked.

They're paying you a wage for this travel time, right? Life's too short to be working for free and in working away from home you're doing them a favour which you should be recompensed for. Worrying about B&B costs is woolly thinking, you're proposing having to spend a night away from your family so what is your employer offering you to do that?

At what point is it reasonable to request to stop overnight? I don’t really fancy driving more than 8 hours in a day if I can help it and I think it’s unreasonable for the company to ask me to, and potentially unsafe for them to ask me to do that. Is there a cut-off point where an overnight stop is either recommended or acceptable?

That's a wholly unacceptable scenario of the company expects you to do a full days work and drive for 8 hours, it frankly isn't safe.

On the railway were tied to 12 hours door to door including working time, unless there's a designated driver who doesn't work during the shift, in which case they can do 14 hours door to door, getting paid for the lot by the way.

Most industries have a standard subsistence allowance, especially those with an engineering sway.

I'd make the case that you'll be a lot fresher if you don't have to drive four hours before beginning work. If you're starting at 9am, I'm assuming that also means you're getting in your car before 5am that morning.

This bit of advice applies to workers who do not go to the office regularly, but worth a look: https://www.peninsulagrouplimited.com/topic/employment-law/travelling-for-work/#:~:text=Unless%20they%20sign%20an%20opt,of%20the%20Working%20Time%20Regulations.

At what point is it reasonable to request to stop overnight?

At our place that's if it results in more than I think 2hrs driving in a work day.

In my work (also engineering) these sorts of expenses are all footed by the customer anyway. Find the nearest premier Inn if you feel like cutting them a break. I'd only use a b&b if there was a significant benefit in it. Even if the customer isn't paying 'plus expenses' directly they are one way or another. Your firm has h&s responsibilities towards you. That job is 4 hours there, on site afternoon, stay as long as you want/deem necessary/is possible, work the morning, drive home. Have a nice meal and a couple of pints. If your want more beer pay for it yourself.

Also an engineer, similar roles maybe. But my furthest drive is probably 2.5 hours.

Depending on what you are doing when you are there, you are going to end up with a very long working day with 4 hours driving either end of it.

Obviously you should be paid for all the hours you work and drive (or suitable half day time off in lieu to compensate), but from a practical point of view, if the anticipated day door to door is going to be longer than your normal commute-office day-commute then you have a reasonable claim that your return journey is potentially unsafe/poor working conditions.

At what point is it reasonable to request to stop overnight?

The same point at which you think it's unreasonable to do it all in a day.

12hrs door to door is pretty standard but I have never seen anything in law. So 8hr day plus 2hrs travel each way. 4hrs travel I would be staying at least one night.

Check your staff handbook, it should provide details. Ours is effectively if we work more than 12 hours door-to-door then get a hotel booked.

Can vary obviously, for example if we need to be on customer site at 9am but only for an hour's meeting before travelling home. We'd still book a hotel close by so we ensure we arrive on time and bright eyed and bushy tailed, rather than travelling for 4 hours beforehand through rush hour traffic.

Similarly I'd quite often get the train down to London for all day meetings and back the same day. Was out the house more than 12 hours but the train was fairly chill and it meant I got to see the family a bit more.

apart from anything else if its 2 consecutive days, 8 hours driving (home and back) x 50mph x 40p a mile (yeah they're probably tightwads) is £160, so you're saving them money by getting a premier inn, dinner and breakfast.

(yes, claim for dinner and brekky too)

Lorry/coach driver regs (simple, there are a pile of "What ifs?"):
4 1/2 hour drive max. 3/4 hour break min. Another 4 1/2 hours.
11 hours overnight rest min.
So max 3-ish hours "other work" on site.
90 hours driving max per fortnight (averages out at 5 day week)
Tweak to your taste (or keep quiet about it 🙂 )

I don’t really fancy driving more than 8 hours

We have a 6hrs max driving policy.And they are strict on it too. That comes down significantly if there is work aswell.

The biggest ballache is they don't allow sharing the driving to extend the time.

you'd be expected to shorten that aswell if the work is physical

I've checked my contract and all it says is "you will be reimbursed for all travelling, hotel, entertainment and other expenses reasonably incurred by you in the performance of your duties" which is nicely vague 🙄

Staying a night (and work paying for dinner) to avoid a four hour drive before a 9am start is absolutely "reasonable".

I always ask myself: “What would I do if it was personal?” Would I drive 8 hours in a day and do a few hours talking, etc with friends? Probably. Would you? Would I do it regularly? Maybe not.

All of my expenses are always submitted on the basis of “would I have done it anyway?”

£80 taxi? Not a chance, I’d have taken the bus/train.

£120 Steak dinner…maybe.

Everywhere I’ve worked that has expected me to travel for work has paid for door to door, plus fuel, plus hotels, plus subsistence.

Some have started in the “we expect you to travel in your own time”, “no hotels”, “no subsistence”, etc. camp.

That was put to bed before I’d travelled anywhere. They either paid what I expected or I didn’t travel. They all some came round to the idea. After a lot of travelling with multiple sites, back to back, in the same week, I did the work to contracted hours thing. I got sick of 80+ hour weeks, week after week.

Don’t be fobbed off with anything less than what you’d be happy with and being paid for. Don’t work for free.

Out of Town working for me normally means anything more than 90mins travel if an 8 oclock start is required, hotel- nothing less than Holiday Inn express as a standard, £7 breakfast, £10 lunch, £25 evening meal, company vehicle and mileage allowance.

I’ve checked my contract and all it says is “you will be reimbursed for all travelling, hotel, entertainment and other expenses reasonably incurred by you in the performance of your duties” which is nicely vague

Sounds pretty standard. To your line manager: 'I'm going to do this over two days or if they want me there for one full day it'll have to be two nights in a hotel - ok?' Then if you have to book it yourself just don't take the piss. Simple.

Do not, I repeat, do not go Travelodge.

Do not, I repeat, do not go Travelodge

This is good advice. Premier Inn is not a minimum standard BTW, it's consistent, quiet and reasonable. The big international chains can vary hugely.

When I was out on th'roads, I don't think there was a specified minimum range for a hotel, but I kind of thought of it as being about two hours travel either way - anything less and I'd commute, anything more and I'd request a hotel (and that was with a working day of 10 to 16). From Birmingham, I'd go for a hotel in London - Manchester was touch and go, might drive if it was south, probably hotel if the other side. Premier Inn, £20 for evening meal (I think - had a card to get food from whatever restaurant was attached to the hotel, AND a fuel card - those were happy days! :)), breakfast at the hotel, I just had to pay for lunch.

That was a good job, looking back. 🙂

Four hour drive each way and work. You should stay over. If you fell asleep at the wheel on the way home work would be liable. I’m surprised they didn’t expect a stay over for one night.

If nothing else I would be a much less useful employee after driving 4 hours to work anyway. I always thought the earliest I would set off would be around 6am so that might get me there around 10am. Work 4-6 hrs then go to hotel for the night as there would be no way it would be safe or responsible to drive home. On a train it’s very hard work - driving? Nope!
Actually I would prefer staying over the night before and I would be fresh for clients/customers the next day then drive home afterwards.

2-3 hours travel for a one-off visit is reasonable but as a regular thing anything over 2 hours for consecutive days is nights away for the joining nights. Drive up day 1 and stay over until the last day when you drive back.

I probably should have been clear. This is travelling 4 hours each way for a meeting that might be 3 hours tops. It will probably be about 10am so I'm thinking hotel the night before and take laptop to work in the morning before the meeting. Then do a 4 hour drive home after the meeting. It will be a once a month recurring meeting.

Sounds sensible

Can't remember our contracted rules but everything is door to door paid.
Overnight stay in a Premier Inn double room ball park cost. Not necessarily a premier inn.

Anything you need whilst away is on expenses.

I work around the van driver rules when I try to decide if I want to stay over, which is 11 hours of duty. That works quite well.

Unless it's near a good riding spot and summer. Definitely a night out then.

In the past, I've flown to Scotland, hired a car. 1 hour of work, stayed over and flown back the following day.

22 years as a homeworker with fair bit of travel UK and EU here. Set a rule that you will consistently stick to, say two and half hours before your contracted start time where unless you can have a kip on the train, you'll drive down the night before, then travelling down the night before, say 50% company time 50% your time. For example 4 hour drive to hotel, and you finish at 5pm then leave at 3pm arrive at 7pm, you are demonstrating some flexibility, but not going silly. One more rule if its a Monday start and you have to travel on a Sunday then its TOIL or overtime, make it clear and consistent what you'll do. On the train say for one of those 14 hour working days, kip on the way down, work on the way back, giving that bit of flexibility but not letting them take the P.

Train is chill
Car is not chill
Consequently I was always more lenient with long days and train travel (East Coast dine-n-snooze)

The rule at my last place of work in the UK was max 12 hours door-to-door for a 1-day visit or 10 hours for multi/consecutive-day trips. Lots of other rules about food, drink, hire cars and what type of hotel you were allowed to stay in.

As you are an engineer not on shifts I'm guessing you are on a standard contract, likely 7.5 or 8 hour days so if they won't pay for overnights then you just about have time to take your legally entitled meal break in the site mess room / cabin at the far end before thanking the site team for a cuppa and heading home! Overtime is never compulsory.
The company would expect you to stay. With a 3 1/2 hour drive each way I would be asking anyone in my team why they hadn't stayed as it's too far to travel and do any work (unless it was literally a half hour inspection of meeting which does happen).
Ask your boss how you sort hotel arrangements. Companies might want you to book through their travel agent or get approval somehow. If not ask the boss / colleagues if they know somewhere decent to stay. Premier Inns are usually plenty fine but I've also stayed in nice seaside pubs or small town hotels with places for a ride nearby which is great in summer. In winter sometimes seems better to be in town for somewhere good to eat. If you're going regular you get time to try a whole town's eateries should you want to.
There should be a company expenses policy somewhere too. Some will give a food allowance others just claim expenses.

We're expected to do it in a day for up to 4 hours total travel time but the company is also pretty flexible (e.g. if the client expects you to be there before 9am then they'd probably cover an overnight stay for less than a 2 hour journey)

I'd not even be asking. 4 hours driving before a meeting means you need to be leaving before that to be absolutely sure you get there on time and you should be stopping part way through that drive for a break. You also need to be in a suitable state for the meeting.

I'd be stopping over the night before everything accomodation, meals, etc is on expenses.

Thanks everyone for your comments. It's given me plenty of ammo/pointers for the discussion with my bitchy boss who holds the purse strings.

For example 4 hour drive to hotel, and you finish at 5pm then leave at 3pm arrive at 7pm, you are demonstrating some flexibility, but not going silly.

Do you do any other work for free? My car needs a wash...