[Closed] Chronic fatigue/PVF

been seeing an accupunctuist which has actually really helped. He has said 1 issue is I've got a build up of toxins in the body and that accupuncture has helped to removed those. i've and 3 sessions and every one has so far resulted in different experiences

Hnngggggggggggg......must....redist....bait.

I think as a first step it would be worthwhile addressing the gut. Good quality probiotic and start making dietary and environmental changes. Knowing your vitamin and mineral status would be helpful in case you have any deficiencies, lots of companies offer private testing.

Think about what you are eating so try to ditch any junk, use proper butter rather than synthetic, coconut oil, good fats, reduce grains. If you can afford organic meat good, if not then avoid supermarkets and go for grass fed from farm shops, go easy on fresh fish.

Consider stopping antibacterial products, fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash, use filtered water.

NHS doesn't recognise adrenal fatigue, only Addison's. Dr M is the expert on CFS and her website is a good source of information. Read, read and read some more.

IANAD and wish you good luck in improving your health.

Presumable you know accupuncture is recognised by the World Health Organsiation. The NHS also refer patients for accupunture.

like to see what you do if the nhs effectively slam the door in your face with regard to treatment. Would you suffer in silence or actually go out and seek alternative therapies? Yes, some people think it's quackery but try having debilitating fatigue that ruins your life as you know it I;m sure you would look at ways of being treated (like i have)

If the acupuncture works, then crack on! Let the haters hate lol 🙂

Yes, the accupuncturist (George Cooper) specializes in Nutrition as well. Around 4 weeks ago i gave up wheat,dairy, sugar, fruit and anything processed). I feel this has helped and i've always subscibed to the minimising bad carbs

i've been taking vitamin d3 for several years now. We only eat organic in the house (my other half works for the soil association) and i never eat marg, cereal etc

trickydisco - ignore Tom, he spouts rubbish. He thinks I'm the Queen of Quackery. 😆

Not for flushing toxins out of the body, though hahah. What next, NBC teams using accupuncture in decontamination protocols?

CFS is a properly shitty, life changing condition and my sympathies are very much with the OP.

To be honest pouring scorn on the one source of hope in an otherwise incredibly difficult situation is a remarkably insensitive and quite frankly damaging approach to take and I sincerely hope that someone who would say that is in no way involved with health care

Your acupuncturist is a quack. Why give up wheat & diary, middle class twaddle. Balanced diet and exercise. The only supplement most people need is vital D. Probiotics don't work unless done under medical supervision, they need to balanced to your gut and the bacteria levels needed are well in excess of what your average over priced yoghurt gives you.

Not saying some of the quackery doesn't help, but it's placebo effect. Unless they can explain the active mechanism it's quackery.

couple of friends of mine who were both very sporty and active have both had CFS / PVF at one time or another. both of them came to the conclusion that it was much a psychological / mental health issue as it was a physical illness - and by this I don't mean psychosomatic - in very much the same way that anxiety is ie mental processes / expectations of outcomes in a situation etc can have pretty debilitating physical effects. they both sought help in this area (one via CBT and one via something called the lighting method) and they reckon it was the single biggest improvement they saw in their condition. both are now back to their previous very active / sporty selves although it did take a while for one of them. only based on a sample of two, but it worked for them so worth thinking about?

stumpyjon> So exercise is something i should do with chronic fatigue? 😕

Maybe worth you reading about the effects of diet on the body and what can happen if you eat wheat,dairy and fruit.

PM sent. 🙂

I have indeed heard about the lightening process and have heard anecdotally that it has helped a friend of my others half's parents.

Ive heard some fatigue sufferers it can be due to too much stress in the body (raised cortisol) and not being able to switch off the flight or flight response (chronic stress). I do believe that in some its a neurological condition and others its after a virus or infection.

While I don't come under the heading of a CFS/ME sufferer by regard to many above (c_g) -- I'm aware that since I was a teenager, I would be laid pretty low by a cold or similar, energy levels would be shot to pieces. Here I am 40 years later and nothing much has changed. Agreed with sofa boy that some of it is mental / stress related, as it co-incides with pretty low moods and lack of self-esteem, isolation and what have you..

the doc has been utterly useless.

There was a time when doctors faced with symptoms they couldn't help with would give you some sort of placebo. They tend not to do that anymore and are more open. This is a GOOD THING.

It'a now been over 2 months. I've not been on the bike since christmas eve which is the most amount of time i've been off the bike in 9 years! this is coming from someone that used to cycle 20 miles a day to work, lift weights in the gym 2-3 days a week and compete in cyclocross races.

Over-exercising often SEEMS to be associated with these sorts of symptoms. You can chase an endless supply of alternative therapies in search of a solution. IANAD, but my other half is an aquapucturist, as one of her elderly patients calls it. I'm sceptical. There have been some studies but the jury is very much out.

Be very afraid ...

Medically Unexplained Symptoms:

First up, you have my sympathy (not that that's any use!) - my wife has suffered from CFS for close to 10 years, sometimes she's good othertimes it's miserable. We've tried all sorts of stuff including acupuncture which seemed to provide some benefit for a period of time. GP's love a diagnosis of ME/CFS - means they can shoo you out the door as there's very little provision for treatment - the only thing NICE recognise is Graded Exercise and CBT and the jury is very much out on whether that's appropriate or not (the research paper they relied on is arguably very flawed). In answer to those above who suggest that it is "mental" we would say that there's a fundamental medical issue underlying the condition - see this link http://www.meassociation.org.uk/news-too/ but the maifestation can be partly mental usually borne out of frustration at the lack of cures and inability to carry on anything resembling a normal life. Unfortunately the internet is full of information ranging from improbable to incredible and all sorts of bullshit inbetween. Here in France it doesn't even register on the medical radar....

I know, terrifying the varying fonts, font sizing and line spacings!! The horror.

Or do you mean that the commissioners need to review evidence bases and fund according to this and the need of the many over the few? It's public money being spent so sort of needs to be looked at rather than throwing it away as so often happens.

northshoreniall - my interpretation is that it's giving a psyche label to whom this applies, more handing out of AD's and left to rot on that scrapheap.

Feel free to call me cynical!

Are you depression rather than anything else?

I assume you are paying for acupuncture? If so, of course they are going to say its good for you.

Googling is great, it makes you a medical expert.

You are indeed cynical, as we all should be. But you cannot discount there is high probability of psych input in these illnesses if you don't like it.
Unfortunately some practitioners aren't as up to date as others, doesn't mean they all are or just hand out meds - maybe in your experience as a single user of the system, doesn't mean it applies globally.

I've been seeing an accupunctuist which has actually really helped. He has said 1 issue is I've got a build up of toxins in the body and that accupuncture has helped to removed those. i've and 3 sessions and every one has so far resulted in different experiences

Whenever anyone says something like this it should set off all manner of alarm bells in your head. "build up of toxins" is such vague load of tosh. The only way you will have a build up of toxins is if your kidneys and liver aren't working and you know what acupuncture won't help that.

As for acupuncture in general, given than sham acupuncture works just as well as "real" acupuncture (i.e. It doesn't matter where you put the needles, or even if you use real needles) then I'm going to keep with the opinion of "it's a placebo".

I don't think anyone can possibly know if there is a psyche component. The way I see it is that the art of a doctor listening to a patient, as well as observing, has gone the way of the dodo. We have tick box medicine instead.

Edit: just to be clear this is not a criticism as I'm well aware that doctors have 10 minute consultations and have to think on their feet. It's a criticism of the system.

The way I see it is that the art of a doctor listening to a patient, as well as observing, has gone the way of the dodo. We have [s]tick box medicine instead.[/s]not enough staff or time in the NHS, too much bureaucracy, and unmanageable levels of demand and expectation from patients. as such, some people seek out what they need from alternative sources; namely an unrushed listening ear. Sometimes this is bandied about as 'medicine', sometimes it's accepted that being listened to over the course of an hour has beneficial outcomes, regardless of whether you're having your hair cut, a massage, or needles stuck in your body

FTFY, in my opinion.

DrP

DOI - my wife, a doctor, offers acupuncture. I've had it. I've learnt about it from her. It's interesting how the outcome can be the same (ie someone feels better), yet the explanation, depending on practitioner, can vary greatly - science/magic/toxins etc etc..

EDIT - just seen your edit 😉

Me too OP. Horrible experience.

Back then, my doctor was great and put lots of time into researching this. I was a wreck and would be ruined by a 200m flat walk. I used graded exercise to increase my walk duration and eventually got back to riding a bike again. It took me 18months to be able to ride 20miles. I didn't research anything else (I didn't want to know), just did progressively longer distances, but backing off when symptoms appeared. Sometimes I would be knocked back a week or 2, but then I just backed off and returned to it later.

Anyway, it may be different for others, and treatments may have moved on, but that's what I did.

Good luck.

Glad you've seen my edit DrP! Did you have acupuncture cos of an injury and, if so, did it help?

Care to share your thoughts on MUS? 😉

Hi
I had CFS/ME when I was in my late teens after Glandular Fever.
I spent years having investigations with the Doctor/Hospitals and everything was inconclusive or normal.
This sadly went on for 15 years until our understanding of food allergies improved and I was advised to start an exclusion diet. After cutting out Gluten/Dairy and certain spices i am now fit, healthy and happy again! I ride several times a week and now in my forties, have got my life back again.
I would try an exclusion diet and see if your gut has been damaged and this could be your answer. I had all those symptoms you are talking about and now I have none.
Good luck

Maybe worth you reading about the effects of diet on the body and what can happen if you eat wheat,dairy and fruit.

I have, have you? Much of what is out there is hippy dippy pseudo science, the whole wheat thing in particular, if you're celiac that's very different from being gluten intolerant or any of the other made look at me syndromes that the quacks are pushing to sell books, diets and lifestyle advice to the desperate looking for quick fixes.

There is a major difference between the rigours of the medical world and the ethics and regulation controlling it vs the free for all of made up stuff. Even then the medics still get it wrong but learn from it.

stumpyjon> So exercise is something i should do with chronic fatigue?

CG - I'm plagued with MSK injuries/low back pains/neck tension...

I find the acupuncture in the neck a huge relief. Oddly, it makes me feel sick when the needles go in - I'm a 'strong responder' apparently.

RE MUS - they are just that - medically unexplained symptoms.
I've loads of patients with them. They sound horrible. Their life sounds terrible.
Sometimes the symptoms are BECAUSE their life is terrible, sometimes vice versa.

I [b]never [/b]doubt the patient feels like they do. It's just that with current science, and available (safe/reasonable) testing, no clear cause and therefore no clear cure can be found.

I frequently say the remit of modern medicine is to look for [b]serious [/b] causes of an illness.
Once the standard path of investigation has [b]ruled out[/b] a serious cause, there is possible there's a less serious (i,.e non life threatening) cause for symptoms. It's just that we can't identify it.

As such, management is of symptoms, rather than perpetual hunting for a cause and cure.
Some people are reassured it's not cancer/diabetes/lymes/ANother disease.
Some people see the lack of 'answer' as a failing, or worse, as a "doctor doesn't give a shit".

It's not that modern medicine doesn't care - it's simply that we have exhausted current facility to investigate any more.

There comes a 'tipping point' that the hunt for a 'reason' becomes so all-encompassing, that this quest becomes a disease in itself.
That I have also seen...

DrP

Much of what is out there is hippy dippy pseudo science, the whole wheat thing in particular, if you're celiac that's very different from being gluten intolerant or any of the other made look at me syndromes that the quacks are pushing to sell books, diets and lifestyle advice to the desperate looking for quick fixes.

Some folk with very high antibodies in hypothyroidism have been able to significantly reduce antibodies by adopting a g-f diet. Also have heard of folk who no longer need to use an asthma inhaler after having gone g-f. Will leave the science bit til later due to a Lyme-addled brain.

You've heard have you?

Well, that's it lads - time to get Public Health England in on this shit, this is a game changer.

Some folk with very high antibodies in hypothyroidism have been able to significantly reduce antibodies by adopting a g-f diet. Also have heard of folk who no longer need to use an asthma inhaler after having gone g-f

Just asking politely, Has any of what you've written there been backed up by appropriate clinical trials?

Not getting involved in a discussion about quackery, but-

christmas day (2016)

I would also agree with the above. You've had 2 and a bit months of feeling washed out after a self reported illness.
This in itself is unlikely to produce any 'positive tests', and statistically should improve as time goes on.

I was knackered for 5 weeks before christmas, following my filthy kids licking my face and coughing on me as I sleep (i suspect).

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease."
A famous quote, that unfortunately is now supraceeded by, I suspect:
"The art of [s]medicine [/s] quackery consists in [s]amusing [/s] fearmongering and charging the patient while nature cures the disease."

DrP

CG - I'm plagued with MSK injuries/low back pains/neck tension...

Ouch DrP, have you considered a proper bike fit? Could be useful if you're switching between bikes regularly or doing big mileage. When I did loads of running I swore by glucosamine plus the occasional massage.

It's horrible seeing those little needles isn't it but great that it works.

Thanks for your thoughts on MUS, certainly enlightening. It must be frustrating for you especially if they're returning week after week saying the same words. Do you not feel though that some of modern life is causing it, for example multiple chemical sensitivity from household products, mould from water damaged homes/buildings, allergic to animal hair, particular foodstuffs etc.

Perhaps these patients need to be investigated by someone other than a GP, an allergy specialist for example or more of a functional medicine person (sorry!) who has the time to ask hundreds of questions.

Your response has been much appreciated. 8)

Do you not feel though that some of[b] modern life is causing it[/b], for example multiple chemical sensitivity from household products, mould from water damaged homes/buildings, allergic to animal hair, particular foodstuffs etc.

I do feel modern life causes SOOOOO many ailments, but perhaps NOT for the reasons you site..
I suspect we live cleaner lives now than we ever have, without exposure to all manner of previous air borne chemicals and toxins. Yes, there's loads of new fumes etc out there, but I think the [b]expectation vs reality[/b] of modern life leads to the vast majority of issues.

I get the impression:
-[b]people can't or won't take time off work if they are ill.[/b] sometimes, all you need to get better is a day or two on the sofa. As such, a simple illnes is dragged out over many weeks, simply because we didn't allow ourselves to be ill.
-[b]people don't allow themselves to be ill[/b]. I'm one of the fittest people I know - I'd say that, at best, my health is about 90%. I'm perpetually knackered, I ache, and I get irritable at my kids. Most of that is poor sleep (in at 2300 last nigh, up at 0515 due to LittleP) and work stress. No blood test or scan will pick up those two factors. in fact - my neck and back ache is magnified massively when I've had a crappy day at work. interesting that.....
-[b]people work in jobs they hate, to live lives they don't need[/b]. I would quit in an instant if my health really started to suffer, or I saw myself becoming a person I didn't want to be. Most wouldn't, so they carry on commuting terrible miles to go to terrible jobs, to never see their kids or wife. probably 2-3 times a day I challenge people on their job choices - that would make a much bigger difference than medication. They all chose the medication.
-[b]we live in an instant gratification world.[/b] Some diseases, genuinely, without cure, will get better after a short length of time. It seems the general population are of the belief that medicine should have a way of 'shifting this illness' because they have stuff to do. See point 2.

I can see the frustrations that we can create self driving cars, and wicking clothing, and AI home automation, but we still can't cure the common cold...

DrP

You haven't got chronic fatigue syndrome. The usual definition is 6 months of symptoms I believe.

I didn't say i had. If you noticed in my post i was asking if Post viral fatigue is similar to CFS. I mentioned CFS isn't recognised until 6 months. I feel i have the same symptoms as Post viral fatigue as i picked up a virus on christmas day and have had severe fatigue ever since.

Why all the negativity and baiting in this thread. I am completely consumed by this fatigue of course i'm going to try and find ways to help remedy it. should i just wait until i get better and not alter my diet or lifestyle in anyway?

and DRp> I had to take the whole of January off work because i was barely able to walk down the stairs.

Just asking politely, Has any of what you've written there been backed up by appropriate clinical trials?

I don't know, there's plenty of folk on health forums saying that going g-f has helped them improve their health. In fact I shall soon by going g-f myself so happy to report back. Would also say that not all clinical trials see the light of day, evidence-based medicine may sound reassuring but vested interests come into play.

Dr Tom O'Bryan is an expert on gluten:

http://thedr.com/category/all-about-gluten/articles/

Op as a fellow sufferer you ready do have my sympathy.
yak above seems to give good advice.
Unfortunately you are in the early stages. Try and accept this could go on for a while. Keep a diary, that way you'll see some progression.
As for depression, imo the very fact your life is on hold and you don't know why this is happening or when it will end could cause this.
My advice is to try and accept the fatigue syndrome for now. Fighting the situation could make it worse. Pace yourself. Going for a gentle stroll is perfectly acceptable exercise for now. Eat sensibly and cut out sugar. I found my immune system was run down, any cold or virus symptoms had me in bed for days. Washing hands and staying away from places where its easy to pick up bugs is hard but will help.
Time and patience is the key now.
You are not alone.

Dr Tom O'Bryan is an expert on gluten:

http://thedr.com/category/all-about-gluten/articles/

Is "expert" the new term for "chiropractor" these days?

Where do you dig up all these cranks?

Sounds very similar to my experience

Got a virus at Christmas 2012 and then had CFS for 3 years to January 2016

A really tough time in my life but now doing much better and been tip top for a year!

Tried acupuncture, nutritionist, steroid treatment on adrenals and finally lightning process

Happy to have a chat in the phone if you want and I can give benefit of my experience

Woody71

Why all the negativity and baiting in this thread.

1. You started off by saying your doctor was useless. That's negativity.

2. When I hear the words "toxin", "dairy" and "gluten" (you can add "vegan" now) I reach for my medical dictionary.

For johnnyboi, a research paper:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2014/293206/

First of all my sympathies. Never nice to be sick even worse when it's unexplained.

I unfortunately have had lots of experience with CFS. Here is what I think:

Don't do anything based on random googling, what people on here say etc. unless there is real peer reviewed evidence for it. Think of any health fad you've ever heard of and google it (Detox, gut microbiome, exclusion diets, supplements, therapy, lightning process etc.). You'll find someone who claims it cured them of CFS and others who will happily take your money. I'm not saying that they are lying but there is no evidence for any of these treatments. No one person knows what made them better. It could have simply been the passage of time and they are claiming it was the goji berries they eat.

You need every other cause ruled out (physical and mental) before it can be confirmed as CFS. This will take months/years. hopefully you won't be sick that long!

So having said that here's my advice:

In the absence of a diagnosis, give yourself every chance of healing yourself. Eat sensibly, try to get outside a bit, rest loads and try remove any sources of stress. Plenty of documented evidence for all of these.

The hardest thing is to just do these simple things and not look for a miracle. But I've been in patient groups where people have spent 40 years following every faddy cure/diet and have certainly made themselves worse.

On the plus side many people get better especially ones who realise early that they are sick and don't push themselves too hard.

So in short:

Rule out other causes, No fads without real evidence, eat sensibly, try to get outside a bit, rest loads and try remove any sources of stress. Boring but really important.

DrP nails it
I work in an ex coal minimg community. We don't see much cfs
We just see loads of shit life syndrome instead.
It amounts to the same thing though.
Stuff that isn't medical but gets presented as medical symptoms because we medicalise everything in life.

Apologies to the op if you thought I was being negative, was not my intention. Just thought it might be helpful to know that the duration of symptoms wouldn't be considered enough to give you the label of cfs. The reason being that chances are it will improve regardless of what medical science or Woo Woo you participate in.
But, anyone who claims they are clearing toxins from your body is dealing in Woo Woo.

Unless the phrase "I'm removing toxins from your body" is said on a renal dialysis unit....

DrP

Well this certainly triggered some trolls didn't it!

I get tonsillitis on a fairly regular basis, and it can take a few months to feel 100% again after a bad case, I was certainly knocked out for a good two months after a really bad one last year. Still too scared to get them out though, even though I've been offered.

I've been thinking of trying gluten free, sometimes when I eat certain kinds of bread my stomach swells so I look 7 months pregnant, it's truly spectacular and quite alarming, I wish I'd taken a photo of how it looked at the weekend to annoy the trolls here, except everyone would see my peepee. I love pasta and beer though so have failed to try it so far, the swelling usually goes down the next day.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648697

If we want to play the scientific rock paper scissors game. Interesting that the very people who originally postulated gluten intolerance, Gibson et al were so unsure of their own findings they did further research and ended up refuting their own conclusions. Unfortunately the uninformed quackery brigade jumped on the initial research as it pandered to their world view. MMR all over again?

Sorry bigJim but resorting to insulting people who don't hold the same view as you by calling them trolls is a pretty weak defence of a weak viewpoint.

On an interesting a (and personal) basis, I avoid bread, fizzy drinks, and milk.
I'm not allergic, or even likely to be having a gluten +ve reaction. It's just that I feel bloated, 'gutty', and crap when I eat that stuff.

And I don't want to feel bloated and crap, so I avoid it.

I'm sure there's basis and rationale in people avoiding certain foods to avoid certain feelings - if you do this, it's quite annoying for you to go around telling everyone you're "x foodstuff intolerant, yet that was never picked up on a test". Just avoid the food, and feel better!

DrP

You have my sympathy - I had something very ME/PVFish after several pretty hardcore bouts of malaria (Falciparum and Vivax flavours). I think it has more or less passed now, but to be honest it was that severe for a couple of years and gradually declined over the subsequent 20 years that I am not entirely sure one way or another.

It was horrible though.

Don't really have any advice. I was a mess for a bit, and was at Uni at the time so found it very difficult to get through it (the course that was), between recurring bouts of malaria and the absolute physical and mental exhaustion that followed (and remained) it was pretty nasty. I just had to carry on and try to make my life work.

Good luck!

Nothing to help the OP perhaps, other than I hope you feel better soon, but maybe some food for thought for those talking about going GF.
I was diagnosed as allergic to wheat a couple of years ago. Asthma, fatigue, migraines, brain fog, sleeplessness, bloated stomach, irritability, generally felt like curling up into a ball and crying! Which I did, on a frequent basis!!!
After diagnosis and giving up all things 😈 wheat infested ( and that's a lot of food), I've got my life back. New job, (I was a baker!) no migraines, sleeping at night and loads more energy. I'm still irritable, but that's just me 👿

Don't really have any advice. I was a mess for a bit, and was at Uni at the time so found it very difficult to get through it (the course that was), between recurring bouts of malaria and the absolute physical and mental exhaustion that followed (and remained) it was pretty nasty. I just had to carry on and try to make my life work.

Good luck!

Well done, you got yourself a proper disease. Malaria can do all sorts of nasty things that could be confused with ME/CFS, like cause actual observable brain damage/cognitive effects in the case of cerebral Malaria.

Am I missing something. I thought that there were a number of recent well respected findings that pointed to a definite physiological cause of CFS - immune system &/or cell 'energy cycle' defects, cure/remission after treatment with Rituximab.

Also, hasn't CBT & GET been discredited as treatment for CFS - PACE trial?

@ whimbrel - ISTR one of the PACE trial chaps was defending his viewpoint in New Scientist a week or three ago.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2121162-metabolic-switch-may-bring-on-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

This one? Pretty cool read, I'll be keeping an eye on the research from now on - as, if they are right - then I should imagine it opens a range of interesting questions.

The objection to the PACE trial focussed on the statistics employed. The PACE chap was concerned about the release of personal data. That NS article sure is interesting though. ISTR that, in the past, all the UK research money in ME went to the headology docs.

Yes, that NS article sums up the studies I've come across.

I can't keep 'pace' with the conclusions/meanings of the PACE trial. Hopefully those that need to understand it are on it.
Hopefully the future money will go in the direction that the latest knowledge suggests.

PS: OP, hopefully your symptoms will sort themselves out sharpish.

Tha PACE trial challenge opens some interesting questions. If I'd taken part, I'd have expected the data to be rendered anonymous before release. I guess there are protocols for this. Then if there were further developments, good or bad, to the benefit of the wider public, there's no objection to the release of the data. Indeed, I'd expect it to happen.

probably 2-3 times a day I challenge people on their job choices - that would make a much bigger difference than medication. They all chose the medication.

DrP - really? I'm shocked at the above frequency, that is certainly an eye opener. But it's also sad, a symptom of 21st century life where you wonder if we've actually progressed beyond sending young boys up chimneys.

I work in an ex coal minimg community. We don't see much cfs
We just see loads of shit life syndrome instead.

docrobster - genuine q, is this passed down from generation to generation? What do you think would help, is it purely due to lack of employment opportunities?

If we want to play the scientific rock paper scissors game.

stumpyjon - is that aimed at me? I came across a paper that certainly opened my eyes and thought others may be interested to read it. What do you think?

flowergirl - wow, quite a game-changer there! Do you miss baking?

very interesting article that..

[i]probably 2-3 times a day I challenge people on their job choices[/i]

I've seen a report about the number of well-educated young females stuck in roles that are below their abilities, and who are depressed as a reult. Might this be part of the problem?

Easy back on page one

mitochondrial dysfunction which she says is related to CFS/ME

I call shenanigans

Lol *said in cheesey tv voice* are you dead or suffering poor growth, loss of muscle coordination, muscle weakness, visual problems, hearing problems, learning disabilities, heart disease, liver disease, kidney disease, gastrointestinal disorders, respiratory disorders, neurological problems, autonomic dysfunction and dementia. If so, you may be suffering from mitochondrial dysfunction - call today for your expensive as **** consultation.

Sorry bigJim but resorting to insulting people who don't hold the same view as you by calling them trolls is a pretty weak defence of a weak viewpoint.

lol

I avoid bread, fizzy drinks, and milk.
I'm not allergic, or even likely to be having a gluten +ve reaction. It's just that I feel bloated, 'gutty', and crap when I eat that stuff.

And I don't want to feel bloated and crap, so I avoid it.

I really should try that though I can't imagine not having milk or cheese. I have a gluten free dairy free vegan friend (except for fish and weird bulls bile supplements) and the stuff he eats looks horrendous, all weird processed fake cheese, gm soya processed 'milk', processed protein like quorn, I can't bring myself to eat it.

bigjim, I found that switching to lactose free milk and avoiding cream was enough dairy avoidance to make a huge difference to how I felt. Still have butter and real cheese, not masses of it, but enough! But recently I tried raw milk and that seems to be OK for me too, it's supposed to be far easier to digest......

cinnamon girl, don't miss working as a baker as it was killing my health, and I've pretty much worked out how to bake wheat free. I'm quite lucky cos it's a wheat allergy rather than a gluten intolerance, but I know about it if I get it wrong as I just fall asleep for a few hours! It's very strange 😯

I've seen a report about the number of well-educated young females stuck in roles that are below their abilities, and who are depressed as a reult. Might this be part of the problem?

Why just educated females? We are all sold the dream that if work hard, give 110% etc that we will succeed and have wonderful lives. But it is just not a dream that society is set up to deliver, so we waste our youth grinding ourselves into the ground for the benefit of a minority, then when we wise up and want to break free and live a life of balance, start taking time for ourselves and be a bit more sporty it's too late, we are middle aged our bodies are in natural decline and just can't deliver what our hearts and minds want.

Dr P - well said

Myself (remember I am a nurse) - I get some fatigue symptoms and other odd symptoms but all very vague. Lymphatics glands permanently inflamed, night sweats to name two. Been under investigations for a while - low vit D is the only thing found. Nice chat with the GP about it all today. Thats basically the end of the line for him for looking for things. I haven't had the night sweats since starting taking Vit D. He suggested a few other courses of action none of which particularly appeal. I'm not particularly troubled by my symptoms and am very unsure how much of it is in my head.

I am convinced there is a series of things probably endocrine but very subtle that cause these chronic fatigue symptoms but at the moment its simply in that big grey area called "unknown to medical science". There are probably multiple causes as well including as DrP so elegantly said lifestyle. Is this an "illness"? Hard to say

One interesting thing he told me was a study which showed that if you gave people with chronic fatigue SSRI antidepressants even if they showed no signs of depression 30% reported improvement.

I think the answers lie in the area where neurotransmitters and hormones and nervous system interact and treatments will be found.

Myself? Vitamin supplements, I shall wear shorts more and be careful with my diet and see.

As fatigue is a stress symptom, have you been activating your flight/fight response a lot lately?

1) been taking any stimulants, coffee, coke, red bull etc?

2) have you been extremely worried in your job or private life?

3) how worried are you about the way you feel? Do you worry, analyse, ruminate, google, research cf on a daily basis?

Xcracer - not for me. Basically happy and relaxed. Overdo the red bull to adjust to shifts but also go days without any.

Tjagain - what job do you do? Could it be stress from this? Deadlines, workload, lack of sleep maybe?

C-g it's well known that being poor makes you ill. The inverse care law was first proposed in 1971.
I'd recommend "the health gap" by Michael marmot if you want to learn more. People are born with disadvantage or advantage which is fixed and virtually never changes in life. Those with more disadvantage have worse health and much shorter [b]disability free[/b] life expectancies than those with advantage. They may live nearly as long but more of their life is ruined by ill health.
Today we had some alcohol training. Guess what. People in deprived areas suffer more harm from the alcohol they drink than people in well to do areas who drink the same. Makes you think. Only a fairer society will improve the health of society overall.
In my experience rather than telling people they've made bad career choices (although this is sometimes the issue) it's more about helping people through the minefield of benefits, poor housing, debt, domestic violence, family break up etc etc that fills my week.
Psychiatrists call it "acute psychosocial crisis" we GPs call a spade a spade and a shit life a shit life.

Sorry to hear you've been ill so long. Feeling unwell for a prolonged time is unbearable especially when you have no idea why because this means so much uncertainty and can consume your thoughts. You say you gave up diary, wheat, sugar, processed food and fruit 4 weeks ago which seems like a bad idea to me. It could be quite a shock to your system. If you think a dietary intolerance might be making you feel unwell why not eliminate one thing at a time for a few months just to see if you feel healthier. What one person can tolerate another can not but cutting out every item that anyone has ever had an intolerance too seems silly and could cause you more unnecessary stress with meal, planning, limiting enjoyable social eating situations and removing the chance of a nice treat now and again (slice of cake after a ride for example). It just seems to me like another chance to stress out and set yourself up for failure if you don't end up sticking to your new diet.

Nothing wrong with choosing, healthy balanced diet to boost yourself though.

I find that eating a lot of organic vegetables from my veg box makes me very bloated and gassy and that toast for breakfast is the only thing that doesn't make me want to have a nap after breakie but I doubt this information will spark a sudden fad of vegetable free, toast based diet plans! 😉

For me the only cure for the brain fog, tired achy spells I get is sunshine and exercise combined but that's been hard to come by of late. Good luck and best wishes.

C-g it's well known that being poor makes you ill. The inverse care law was first proposed in 1971.
I'd recommend "the health gap" by Michael marmot if you want to learn more. People are born with disadvantage or advantage which is fixed and virtually never changes in life. Those with more disadvantage have worse health and much shorter disability free life expectancies than those with advantage. They may live nearly as long but more of their life is ruined by ill health.
Today we had some alcohol training. Guess what. People in deprived areas suffer more harm from the alcohol they drink than people in well to do areas who drink the same. Makes you think. Only a fairer society will improve the health of society overall.
In my experience rather than telling people they've made bad career choices (although this is sometimes the issue) it's more about helping people through the minefield of benefits, poor housing, debt, domestic violence, family break up etc etc that fills my week.
Psychiatrists call it "acute psychosocial crisis" we GPs call a spade a spade and a shit life a shit life.

Great post.

Tom_W1987

So where do you go from here if you were me? Accept it is vit D deficiency and get over it? Keep bothering the NHS? Look with a sceptical eye elsewhere? I still have vague unexplained symptoms which I perfectly accept could be part or all in my head

Agree with you about the quoted post

xcracer1
I'm a staffnurse in a difficult job. One I enjoy and am good at and well within my capabilities. I'm not under stress. I have been in the past, I know what its like

[url= https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170309120626.htm ]Low gluten diets linked to higher risk of type 2 diabetes[/url]

Makes sense as less gluten is going to less fibre and possibly getting carbs from sugary foods

😆

http://newsroom.heart.org/news/longtime-chicago-bakers-philanthropists-donate-2-million-to-american-heart-association

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martha-rosenberg/health-news_b_4398304.html

We thought my wife had CFS or post viral fatigue, GP flat denying there was anything wrong with her.

Turns out she had primary hyperparathyroidism from a tumour that could have been diagnosed about two years earlier if the GP was prepared to spend the money on the extra blood test.

Don't assume your blood tests screen for everything. Mostly it's a standard suite, and it'll be the same time and time again.