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Couple that with the vague, contradictory and poorly thought out rules
They just interviewed one of Borises minions MPs interviewed on Five Live. His stuttering, evasion and umming and ahhing quickly exposed the fact he clearly didn't have a ****ing clue what you were or weren't allowed to do.
Clear as mud.
Standard nowadays, isn't it?
Aye. If you're lucky enough to be in a Tier 1 area, you can look forward to more lockdown rather than less since travel restrictions are being lifted.
We've also been consistently told that meeting up in hospitality settings is safer than in our houses. That's being turned on its head too.
And hugging is now OK?
@MrOvershoot, given the time you've had of it, I don't think anyone would begrudge you that. Have a nice time buddy.
The Christmas bubble thing isn't just about the virus, they are trying to balance out the damage of the virus vs the wave of Christmas suicides that are expected!
How high is the cliff?
I think in a lot of situations, with people using common-sense, family gatherings at Christmas would be very low risk. Personally I'm basically self-isolating anyway (not because I need to but because I'm not very socialable and get everything I need delivered :p ) so unless the delivery people are infected and lick the parcels/food shopping I shouldn't pick it up. My brother less so as he has 4 kids but if they took precautions between school ending and a Christmas family get together it would still be pretty low risk.
Anyone that's already just staying in the rules but not doing everything possible to minimise contact with people other than in their direct household (or support bubble if it's absolutely required) is a hypocrite if they're posting on here saying Christmas get togethers are risking killing more people than would otherwise happen.
Ofc there's a lot of the population that will see it as an excuse to do what they want over Christmas and meet up outside the rules that have been set but they're going to do that regardless so no a valid reason to outright reject a temporary small reduction in restrictions for everyone.
I think we can only be true to ourselves: I can't control what others choose to do, but I can decide to not take advantage of relaxed rules that will inevitably cause a rise in infection and death. So it'll be a quiet Christmas with my immediate family, and a socially-distanced walk with the in-laws.
The Christmas bubble thing isn’t just about the virus, they are trying to balance out the damage of the virus vs the wave of Christmas suicides that are expected!
I did jokingly ask on page 1 about overnight stays because sober christmas is a fate worse than death... but balance of extra covid deaths vs drink driving deaths is not a factor to be ignored.
I think in a lot of situations, with people using common-sense, family gatherings at Christmas would be very low risk.
I agree, for the same reasons. But I'd add that there's probably another aspect to things.
Those of us currently sticking to the rules aren't gonna suddenly go nuts and see loads of people indoors, while rule breakers are probably already doing what this now allows.
What I'm getting at is, it may not change overall behaviour patterns that much, really.
but balance of extra covid deaths vs drink driving deaths is not a factor to be ignored.
That is also a good point when a lot of people are already gungho for doing their own thing!
family gatherings at Christmas would be very low risk.
Seeing others indoors seems to be the biggest vector for the disease. So it's actually the highest risk.
I'd see my family if we just met outside but the 4 hour drive is a bit of a logistical barrier.
It's also worth remembering that plenty of people don't see their family at Christmas even though they want to and manage perfectly fine. Take my wife for example, an American expat living in Britain. Seeing her family at Christmas is a very rare treat. She hasn't, so far, been found swinging from a beam on Boxing Day. I'm sure for one year everyone could suck it up if they could be arsed, but people are too set in their ways.
balance out the damage of the virus vs the wave of Christmas suicides
With Covid killing 400+ a day and suicide about 20, it's not a difficult balancing act
(In no way trying to downplay how bad the suicide stat is)
Poopscoop
Full Member
MrOvershoot
Full Member
OK people
I’m on my own since my wife died last year and I work in Liverpool where I can get a test any time and get the results in 20 minutes.
So lets say I get a test on the 24th Dec and test negative, should I drive down to South Gloucestershire in a small village to stay with the in-laws in their massive house with my own bedroom & bathroom for Christmas?
No one can give you the answer to that one in truth. From a pure risk adverse level, it’s “no” of course. Not as simple as that though is it mate.
Sorry to hear about your wife, I’ve no idea how tough any Christmas must be for you, let alone this one.
Last Christmas was awful so I was at work most of the time just to do something, not sure if it was the right thing as I was in floods of tears most of the time when not at work!
anagallis_arvensis
Full Member
should I drive down to South Gloucestershire in a small village to stay with the in-laws in their massive house with my own bedroom & bathroom for Christmas?
If you want to.
I really want to as much as they want to see me as they are the closest thing to parents I have these days.
mrwhyte
Free Member
MrOvershoot. Really sorry to hear. I’d say yes certainly. Are you part of a support bubble? If not, then can you make your inlaws that support bubble?
That was my thought process as I’m not in anyone else’s bubble.
Kryton57
Full Member
My huge condolences to Mr Overshoot I’m very sorry for your situation.
Thanks, for some reason the thread I started back last October just before Carolyn’s funeral isn’t listed in my “Topics started” list? Here it is anyway
Im-in-need-of-some-support-from-you-lot-sad-content-im-afraid
reluctantjumper
Full Member
I would say that compared to some people who will be crossing the country to visit 2 or 3 different family households over the 5 days without a test to know for sure you’re being very sensible and should do so. The mental health benefits for you would far outweigh any chance of the test being wrong and you passing it on. Just take sensible precautions like fuel the car fully a few days before the test, self-isolate for those few days before the test and on the drive down don’t stop at a services unless you’re desperate for a pee.
It’s all about risk mitigation rather than total risk removal.
I think the mental health benefits are also for my in laws Its only 360 miles round trip and I have a capacious bladder, my job entails a lot of risk management so perhaps in my nature to be cautious?
Nobeerinthefridge
Free Member
@MrOvershoot, given the time you’ve had of it, I don’t think anyone would begrudge you that. Have a nice time buddy.
That’s very kind of you. It also means I can visit my wife’s grave, the events of this year has meant I haven’t managed to sort the headstone out yet 🙁
I thought I should reply to you all as this place has been huge help in keeping me sane! Hard to believe eh 😀
I was going to ask if your employer would let you work from home for a week before Xmas, so that you could isolate before heading down to see them, but it sounds as is if that wouldn't be good for you either. Such a difficult time for you... thoughts with you.
My only bit of advice MrOvershoot, is to may be do a test run of peeing in a bottle prior to your travel if you don't want to head in to the services.
Ensure the receptacle has a wide enough entrance. You don't want a a soaked seat....this is speaking from experience in a rather long traffic jam on the M25. I now keep an old High5 bottle in the car for just such emergencies.
In all seriousness, it sounds like you thoroughly deserve some time with loved ones.
Seeing others indoors seems to be the biggest vector for the disease. So it’s actually the highest risk.
Agree but I'm not talking about random strangers meeting up and those strangers having been in situations where they've been in contact with a large number of people in recent days.
I'm saying within an 'extended bubble' of 3 households meeting up where you've all taken precautions beforehand then the risk is small (of someone in that bubble being asymptomatic and infecting many others in the extended bubble). Likely less so than many situations permitted under current (or at least post-lockdown) rules.
I agree there's a valid argument people shouldn't be doing anything voluntarily that even has a small risk of spreading the virus but if that's what someone thinks then I hope they're already doing that. I mean a couple of posts above someone mentions a socially-distanced walk with in-laws - but that's just another example of people not avoiding <span style="text-decoration: underline;">any</span> voluntary risk of exposure. The virus infection rate isn't 0 outdoors at 2-3 metres, just very low.
I’d see my family if we just met outside but the 4 hour drive is a bit of a logistical barrier.
It’s also worth remembering that plenty of people don’t see their family at Christmas even though they want to and manage perfectly fine. Take my wife for example, an American expat living in Britain. Seeing her family at Christmas is a very rare treat. She hasn’t, so far, been found swinging from a beam on Boxing Day. I’m sure for one year everyone could suck it up if they could be arsed, but people are too set in their ways.
You've both made choices to be away from your parents, that's very, very different from the needs of others, surely you can see that?.
Lots of folk on here seem to see things as black and white, you're either a moral god or a rule breaking ****in retard. Things are quite often not as clear cut.
So it’s OK to ignore the rules if you know better?
Nick I think your deliberately pushing my posts in an anti vaxxer direction. No I don't think its OK to ignore the rules, but - for example - why have a bubble of 3 houses in your living room if you don't have to? Don't do it because someone says you can if you can avoid it, at the same time you shouldn't be have a bubble of five, or multiple bubbles.
It's that underlying principle which I'm referring to, that we can all use a modicum of intelligence to remain responsible in not increasing transmission where possible, and should we decide to invite our relatives over for Christmas it should be a considered decision not just because I read I could in the daily mail.
My example; This means we can have the in-laws and 89 yo great Nan for Christmas dinner, because Boris said so. Now, I've two school kids at different schools, I'm athsmatic, Mrs K is immune comprimised, and great nan is already diabetic and high risk although living alone. I'm sorry but for me thats a very easy decision to make and I don't need Boris to make it for me, neither do I need to ask STW.
The BBC have done a piece on how to make Christmas as safe as it can be for those that will be bubbling etc. It's no substitute for just staying at home and doing a Zoom call obviously but...
Anyway, nothing particularly new but might be handy for some?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55017034
My only bit of advice MrOvershoot, is to may be do a test run of peeing in a bottle prior to your travel if you don’t want to head in to the services.
Ensure the receptacle has a wide enough entrance. You don’t want a a soaked seat….this is speaking from experience in a rather long traffic jam on the M25. I now keep an old High5 bottle in the car for just such emergencies.
Pepsi 500ml bottles have a wider neck, so do Lucozade ones. Helpful to have 2 in case you fill the first one.
I really want to as much as they want to see me as they are the closest thing to parents I have these days.
Do it then, you have suggested reasonable precautions, it sounds like you both need it.
We had that awkward discussion this AM where we agreed the grandparents who are out and about at concerts, shopping and having friends over for dinner are more of a risk to us than we are to them !
I think we will try and keep it quiet, but with three university students returning home from multiple citites, plus the youngest at school, we are probably already quite high risk without seeing my parents and siblings
Thanks as ever chaps for your support & discussions about my bladder capacity 😉 It was confirmed in 2005 during an ultrasound on the said bit of me, I think the quote was "My that's a high capacity you have there Mr" well I think that was what they were talking about!??
I've now booked the 3 working days after Christmas off, only 21 days carried forward to 2021-2022 😮
Trust me I know the journey to them very well, been doing it for 25 years now so I have the "no stop rule" well tested.
You’ve both made choices to be away from your parents, that’s very, very different from the needs of others, surely you can see that?.
A need is buying food. No normal person needs to see their family indoors whilst the second wave of the pandemic is barely over its peak. They might want to, but even the government are saying it's not sensible so don't if you don't need to. If you don't, you'll cope just fine.
It’s for one year.
This.
We're going to meet in-laws from a mile away for a meal and a walk, but family zooms to all others now planned and timetabled for the day.
I was getting a bit hto and bothered about all this, especially the statement "We deserve a Christmas". WTAF, we don't deserve anything in the middle of a blinking pandemic that's killing thousands of people. We may _like_ a Christmas which is somewhat different.
Anyway, as someone sage said, those that get it will be sensible and those that are doing what they want will do that anyway. This means the Govt is not cornered into having to police it and become even more unpopular from a very VERY low base.
And can I be the first to wish everyone here a very merry Christmas and may I burn in hell for saying that in November but what the heck.
Edit - **** it, I can't be arsed arguing with such superior beings.
Have a nice christmas.
Matt-outandabout.
I would say being a mile away for a meal is a little extreme but safety first
Anyway, as someone sage said, those that get it will be sensible and those that are doing what they want will do that anyway.
If this wasn't a contagious disease then we really could let folk work out and apply their own risk/reward. However, removing the travel restrictions will impact everyone, whether they like it or not, and the overall relaxation will also increase NHS workload and lead to more severe and prolonged restrictions for everyone.
I can't quite see why these bubbles need to be of such limited duration. Any infection betwen the different households will have happened, if it was going to, during the allowed time. And while the households are together, they can't do as much as they could have done as single households. The risk of further infection if the bubble stays together longer, and complies with the rules, appears to be lower than if it split up and the individual households went back to complying with the rules for single households in their area.
If the bubble is, say, 8 people... and it passed between them in series rather than parallel, a fresh person could be infected every few days... so fresh infections still occurring a month into the big bubble being set up.
It keeps getting trotted out that it would have been political suicide to 'cancel christmas,' but I can't help thinking it wouldn't have been that politically hard to say 'we're going to follow the science, so no change to the rules, but we should be in a better place by easter, so we'll give you another bank holiday then if you all behave and things go well.'
Anyone fancy the 'rona for Chrimbo? Me neither so I'll be protecting my family and friends by restricting myself to the odd outdoor socially distanced wander.
Just because it hasn't been suggested yet, but Lipton Ice Tea bottles are an absolute essential for long journeys when you absolutely cannot leave the car. Perfect for wintertime camping, too.
A 1L Nalgene wide mouth bottle will provide much needed emergency relief for the most camel-like of bladders
I found that one out on the Brenner Pass stuck in a 6hr jam in a campervan in the snow (it was September)
Will there be a special festive Clap for Carers? Maybe right after the Queens message.
That'll help.
Edit – **** it, I can’t be arsed arguing with such superior beings.
Have a nice christmas.
I've made my decision about what we're doing at Christmas. I've also decided no to knock anyone else doing what they decide.
My only concern is the added stress on NHS and a prolonging of the pandemic.
Have a good one folks.
Agree but I’m not talking about random strangers meeting up and those strangers having been in situations where they’ve been in contact with a large number of people in recent days.
Sadly my immediate family consists of two kids at two separate schools and a wife who has to do home visits. The amount of potential contacts, and their potential contacts, is huge. Can't see it being safe to bring my 80 year old parents into the mix when they are hopefully only 2-3 months away from getting a vaccine.
We decided ages ago to not see any family / friends / grandparents over xmas.
For the sake of another few months of social isolation until a vaccine arrives I'm not willing to run the risk of my family potentially infecting others or exposing my own family to it.
Based on local friends / neighbours we'll be in a tiny minority as pretty much everyone we know has flouted the rules right from the outset - they all still clapped for the NHS though.
Based on local friends / neighbours we’ll be in a tiny minority as pretty much everyone we know has flouted the rules right from the outset – they all still clapped for the NHS though.
Same. My old neighbours from the start were having friends and family over throughout lockdown 1, loads of work done on the house, people staying over etc. Were they out there every Thursday clapping for the NHS? You can bet they were.
loads of work done on the house
This was okay if done safely as it was work not leisure
Well my girlfriend has confirmed she is going to her parents for a few days, just the 3 of them. I'm not going home so it's Christmas on my own. I don't feel comfortable going with her, and her parents aren't my biggest fans. At least I can go for a bike ride and not have to worry about burning the turkey.
You've got me worried about the Turkey now.
Yeah, the kerning on this site is debatable.
Like many we will be applying/adapting the rules with a little common sense to try and get through this as best we can.
I've got two kids (9+13) and my wife is a secondary school teacher - we want to try and see both sets of in-laws over Christmas but have 'difficult' circumstances to negotiate.
My folks are mid-70s and live in a retirement complex - both have minor underlaying health conditions and have been pretty sensible.
My wife's folks currently have 4 foster kids (all of whom will be seeing their own families in the run-up to Christmas) and have regular contact with both of my wife's sisters (both work for the NHS - one of them is a nurse on a COVID ward) and their grubby school aged kids.
They've all been a bit 'fast and loose' with the COVID rules - using 'childcare' as an excuse to do whatever they want.
We are planning to effectively isolate from the Friday before Christmas, and see my Mum and Dad Christmas day - this means we can reasonably assume all parties are 'clean' on this day.
Boxing day we'll briefly see my wife's parents and whoever else happens to be there on the day.
Following this we will effectively self-isolate again until new year to ensure we don't spread whatever we might catch 'round her Mum and Dads.
Gutted we can't see the usual other friends/families we normally see over Christmas but that is the way it needs to be.
Not looking forward to Boxing day - i feel like i might as well lick the doorknobs of a COVID ward.
It just seems madder than a box of frogs to me. Either we need to be locked down or we don’t. It’s not like Covid is taking five days off from spreading because it’s Christmas. No wonder some folk are confused and others are just saying **** it and doing what they please.
It just seems madder than a box of frogs to me. Either we need to be locked down or we don’t. It’s not like Covid is taking five days off from spreading because it’s Christmas. No wonder some folk are confused and others are just saying **** it and doing what they please
My thoughts exactly.
Well today has resulted in a flurry of incoming calls and messages to 'arrange' Christmas so we have made an early declaration that we will not be joining anyone for Christmas, we hereby await the fallout/mediation...
Not dissimilar to spooky above - thoughtlessly vaguely assented to going over to my sister's some time over the Xmas period, before all this gubbins about Christmas Bubbles came out, am now reconsidering as OH is somewhat vulnerable and the case rates, albeit low both there and here, are higher than when we last saw them in the summer.
Could suggest going for a walk halfway between our 2 places but seems a bit harsh on the 3 infection vectors kids, who, no doubt, would prefer to be at home in the warm messaging their mates.
Don't know what to do...
The latest (and I presume common) assumption is that a relative proposes to visit us, followed by another family member the next day, who is already meeting another household.
Until we pointed out that of course, it's not two contacts each, it's an exclusive bubble of three.
So if you are only meeting someone for a day or two, you are putting trust that those contacts are not seeing anyone else on other days.
I’ve not seen my parents since August, when they popped round shortly after I broke my leg avoiding an altercation with John Deere on my road bike. I’ve got two sisters, with children, so have decided that I won’t be seeing my parents, because I know how much joy they get from their Grandkids. It’s a bugger, but given that we’ve got F-i-L staying with us, a necessity. Just seems utterly stupid, allowing such mixing indoors, but I expect nothing less from this Govt.
So much easier not to bother. My parents live round the corner but contact at Christmas will be 2 metres apart on the doorstep, as it has been pretty much since about the middle of March.
Once they are vaccinated (both either side of 80) then we'll have a proper celebration.
It’s been agony not seeing my kids and grandchildren this year. Plenty of tears have been shed by us all.
But we’ve all settled into a new routine of meeting regularly by FaceTime which has helped.
To meet up now will not only expose us to the risk of infection but upset us all when we have to part again for who knows how long.
I’d rather knuckle down and carry on as we are until the glorious day when we receive the vaccine and can truly start to rebuild our society.
The mixing of households and the liberal application of the law has been a real bugbear of mine right through, especially given my job working on the pandemic response, and I expect it'll be equally frustraing both under the new tiers and Christmas. The data, which is publicly available, on which the new tiers is based is stark about where we are where we need to get to. I want to see my folks next Christmas too so doubt very much we'll be seeing them other than a distanced door step present drop. I suspect they will bubble with my sister, so that's a 6 and us with my FIL. As above, we're close to getting this moving the right way and IMO can't risk it going sharply upwards again in January and when flu season really hits.
Another one here who is having to fight the various parts of the family who don't understand it's 2 households only over the 5 days. Add in various birthdays around Christmas and New Year and it's turning into a bloody nightmare to the point where I'm about to say I'm seeing my parents and my sister only. Trouble is I'll turn up at my parent's house and others will descend on it anyway.
Might just not bother at all at this rate.
I'm honestly quite glad Xmas is cancelled this year for my family. Xmas has no sentimental value in our family and is more about who can get the most expensive presents. Pretty sad really. So I'm going to be spending the day up in Kielder on my bike on my tod.
It's about time we had a scaled down Christmas as last couple of years it's got out of hand, my OH getting ridiculously stressed and spending tonnes of money we dint have, with me just using it as an excuse to get pissed every night in December and a rise in fractiousness and arguments. Last Xmas Eve was ruined cos my OH freaked out cos we ran out of wrapping paper for the kids presents and instead of consoling her I just had a go at her cos it was all so silly.
We re now separated by the way so looking forward to a Xmas period on my own with possibly Xmas day and boxing day with the kids. We need to calm Xmas down it's just a frenzy. It's not just us I gather
Dropped a bit of shopping off at my parents this afternoon and we've agreed we'll have a proper Christmas get together when we are allowed, and they have had vaccines. They are quite happy to miss this Christmas if it means that they can have a few more.
For Tory voting Brexiteers, they are finally pissed off with Boris & Co for this latest cock up.
Despite the in-laws being our childcare we're just meeting the 3 sets of grandparents outside for a walk over a few days.
Enjoying a quite Christmas playing with Duplo, brio, Playmobil, some colouring in and probably a bike ride with the wee man.
We’ve not had the conversation about Christmas yet. Between Mr Pea and my families, we have 8 “households” including my mum and my M-I-L who both live alone. One problem is my mum, who is 74 and has been totally flouting the rules, with several of her mates, continuing to visit each others’ houses, eating and drinking with each other. I’m just as worried about catching Covid from her as us passing it on to her! I don’t know what to do!
Vicky Pea - Same situation here. I think the problem with some of the elderly, is that they don't know anyone who has caught this, so until they have the evidence in front of them it's hard to compute. Also they are old and haven't got long left and want to enjoy life. This of course is not all older people, most are very responsible, considerate and are self isolating.
If people are still undecided as to what to do in this free for all over Christmas, have a little thought for the NHS staff.
I was chatting to a friend in town yesterday. It was brief as he was queuing at the local fish mongers. At first I didn't recognise him, as he looked like a broken man. He is a doctor and his wife a GP. They are just, sleeping, eating and breathing in the little time they have off work. Its these people who are going to be trying to look after the extra cases in the 3rd wave a few weeks after January.
I for one am going to wait a year and help them.