[Closed] Chris Horner on la Vuelta

[url= http://inrng.com/2013/09/vuelta-chris-horner-performance-age ]The problem with Chris Horner[/url]

[url= http://cyclingmole.com/2013/09/12/chris-horner-a-disease-in-cycling ]Chris Horner Credible or Incredible[/url]

Yes....errr....I mean no

I'll let it slip if he wins a couple more stages and gives more interviews in "Spanish" 😆

Me too. I have been saying it for most of the race. His performances are nothing short of incredible.

For me he is of the wrong era and the way he is riding away from some riders is very suspicious.

Hope I am wrong!

It's not just you. No slurring of the dude intended. But he's out of the saddle up category ones while the current crop of best riders trails behind... He seems like a nice guy, though, so I'd like to believe he's clean.

He has no new contract, he is riding his best every ride, he has nothing else left after the Vuelta so fair play to him, i really hope he is a. clean and b. wins it.

Comes across as a likeable guy in the post race interviews. The biggest thing it gives us mid-30's hope we can continue to keep up with our mates into our early 40's!

It almost doesn't matter if he's clean or not.
The main problem is the fact that when something like this happens, we all suspect.
It's broken.

Seems remarkable for one reason or another. It says on one of those pages that he'd had most of the season off through innjury. Maybe he'd been training/riding too hard all his career? Maybe older riders can come through really well if they reduce their load?

Maybe...

I am watching yesterdays end of stage now, missed it all yesterday.... It sounds great.

An American, on a Trek, riding away from the worlds best climbers? No tragic sense of deja vu there...

I want to believe, he's the same age as me so gives us oldies hope, he comes across as entertaining in interviews, but its all a bit too much. When he won a stage earlier on the defenders were saying "well, his form will tail off throughout the 3 weeks", which its failed to do. There were lots of raised eyebrows thanks to him riding entire 15km climbs out the saddle.

Or maybe its all down to riding stupidly wide bars?!

People are questioning Nico Roche's peformance, but he looks broken at the end of most stages like he's riding 100% when the rest of the contenders keep something in reserve.

Another couple of tough finishes coming up with no chance to rest up in the bunch for a day or so...may be interesting!

The website velonews was all over the rumours, suggestions and insinuations about Chris Froome at the TdF, but they seem to have gone strangely quiet when it's an American rider edging close to the Vuelta lead.

OK now I have seen it, seems OK to me, I hope so anyhow. Looking like a spicy finish to this Vuelta.

Really want to believe it's bread and water - but it's so out of nowhere that you can't help but be suspicious. One big day, yeah, that happens. Over three weeks? Hmm...

I really want to believe but I'm confused.

One one hand, he's been injured, he's old, he's improved massively and he's rocketing up climbs in amazing times.

On the other, he's well-rested due to little racing, convicted cheats are significantly slower these days (Contador) so the cleaner guys are more likely to be winning things and he's got the strongest team in the race (though I find it odd that Cancellara pulled out to focus on the Worlds when his team is in with a shout of winning a GT)

Hmm

I'm glad i found this...

I've been sitting there and wondering "who the hell is he...."

I'm pleased it's not just me wondering where on earth this form has come from.

First thing I said when I saw his name on the rosta..

Hmmm an ex Lance teammate...

Hmmmm, benefit of the doubt though, I'll give him that.

His performances do seem too good to be true at first glance, but if you factor in the aero advantage he gets from his polished noggin, then all makes sense.

Having read Roche`s book he has had the potential for years and is a good climber but not one of the best which is borne out by the way he gets tailed off at the end of really long steep stuff so I dont see anything wrong there .

i hope he does it and i hope he's clean.

It almost doesn't matter if he's clean or not.
The main problem is the fact that when something like this happens, we all suspect.
It's broken.

This

What if he is clean? We have just witnessed one of the great sporting stories and missed it due to jaded cycicism. The governing body really needs to do something to restore trust in the sport, rather than fannying around with legal challenges to presidential nominations and "globalising" the sport. If I were the IOC* I would ban them from the Olympics until they can sort it out.

*They won't since the IOC (and FIFA, the IAAF etc) are bent as a 9 bob note as well.

[url= http://inrng.com/2013/09/vuelta-chris-horner-performance-age/ ]Inrng put it quite succinctly[/url].

My optimistic theory is, the riders who've been racing and training clean for years have the upper hand these days. The ex dopers are struggling as they get used to doing what the clean guys have always done, with no short cuts.
The dopers are starting to stick out like sore thumbs now, qv Santambrogio in the Giro.

I thought we'd established that cycling is completely clean, now that the root cause of it all Lance Armstrong has been caught?

inner ring misses the point, doubting is a problem for the sport, not of the doubter, borne out of bitter experience.

My optimistic theory is, the riders who've been racing and training clean for years have the upper hand these days

I'd like to agree but it doesnt explain why a 41yr old, whos missed a season of racing, is dropping riders recognised as climbers who[i] haven't[/i] been implicated in doping.

Does missing most of a season mean Horner is rested, or "rested"?

Its all been said. 41 year old with no previous form in Grand Tours, coming back from injury and beating some of the best GT riders and climbers day after day. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I also don't understand the easy ride he's being given by the press. Froome had to answer doping questions every day he was in yellow. Is it because Horner is American and doesn't ride for Sky?

dropping riders recognised as climbers who haven't been implicated in doping

(I don't really follow road racing - apologies if I'm missing the point)

I also don't understand the easy ride he's being given by the press. Froome had to answer doping questions every day he was in yellow. Is it because Horner is American and doesn't ride for Sky?

Is it only me who is jaundicely suspicious about his new-found form?

I feel sorry for you, all I can say is this:

The last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people.

I don't care anymore.

And that's not in a STW "WGAS because I'm not interested in the thread subject" style. I just couldn't care less about whether a professional road cyclist is doping or not. I cared once upon a time and as a couple of decades of champions came tumbling down in confessions and being caught retrospectively over a few years, I just stopped giving a shit. I don't buy team kits and I avoid the products that are advertised on their jerseys.

I still watch it and enjoy the spectacle and wonder whether I'm enjoying it as a sport or a WWF style entertainment show. I think it's cleaner than the LA era but that's only from reading threads on here and getting the information from the linked articles. It's like watching sprint athletics now - you just can't be sure whether or not they're all high as kites.

Watching a 41 year old who's never performed this well in a GT before ride away from riders like Nibbles, Valverde and Purito repeatedly is a bit much even for the Vuelta, isn't it? Which is actually really sad: if there was no such thing as doping we'd all be rooting for the old fella beating the established winners. 😐

Has anyone done any stats on Chris Horner*. How many Watts/kg is he putting out, climbing times etc?

All the questioning of Froome was based on his times and his power numbers being "superhuman" rather than just because he was winning; this all started following his time up to Ax 3 Domains. How is Horner doing on these measures? Has he stepped up and is beating an on form Niballi, Valverde and Rodriguez or is he doing a normal, belivable, effort and everyone else is below that level?

The fact that Roache is also only 3 mins down on GC, well above his previous best, point to this being a Vuelta which isn't as fast as previous years.

*Maybe the numbers have been skewed by his unfeasibly wide handlebars?

My optimistic theory is, the riders who've been racing and training clean for years have the upper hand these days

I'd also like, and hope, to agree. There does seem to be something [i]different[/i] about racing these days, certainly with regards to the repeated yo-yo bouncing attacks from Bertie et al of old. No one seems to have that repeated hit 'em, hit 'em again, hit 'em again style of attacking at the moment. More a grind 'em down.

One hopes, but one can't be sure. Sadly.

Maybe the numbers have been skewed by his unfeasibly wide handlebars?

Glad I'm not the only person to have noticed that! They're bonkers wide for someone who's not a massive chap.

I'd check your stats on the 'done nothing' in previous GT's - three times in the top 15 in TDF, once in top 10... great climber (always has been) and Vuelta is primarily mountain based... met him in 2000 and really is a genuinely nice guy! Never given the chance in the past to be a leader so maybe now he can shine, even at 41... and by the way, I still fly up mountains faster than my mates in their 30's and I'm 58! And no, I don't dope

I'm hoping it's because Nibbles & purito are clean, valverde too, that'd be a first so for once Horner can show his true talent

He's 41
he's never won a grand tour stage before now
he said he's never seen doping
he was one of armstrongs most important riders

of course he's ****ing doping. kick him out.

last year's vuelta which IMO was the funnest, maddest wild-west dopiest show on earth, in recent times anyway

To true... 😆

It was a great spectacle, for sure, but looked like total-wipeout dope-ma-geddon to me also..

The last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people.

I once felt that way I thought I had a good idea who was 'prepared' and who was clean but then again I believed in David Millar...

Sean Kelly was commenting on this t'other day. His view was Horner's numbers were not out of the ordinary and that most of the stage times this year were slower than in the past. Horner has always been a good tactical rider & climbed well but this year he's had a restful time & been able to design his rehab & training to peak about now.

Kelly was of the opinion that Barguil's performances were more unexpected and that Purito's attack on stage 16 was unbelievable as the run in to that final climb had been at a stupidly high pace led by teams who wanted to prevent any such break on the hill.

I'd also like to think that it is a case of the clean riders now being able to shine with ex-dopers finding it tough.

great climber (always has been) and Vuelta is primarily mountain based.

Amen to that. I watched him win the ITT (and thus the GQ) at the Basque tour a couple of years back. The parcourse was short and ridiculously steep*, seemingly suiting Purito perfectly, and to a lesser extent Valverde. He even put almost a minute into Wiggo. Classy rider, I thought.

*ramps of 25-30%, according to my garmin when I came down it today 😉

Some numbers here:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/horner-pushes-the-power-numbers-at-the-vuelta_302720

Might wanna put a spoiler tag on that - its got todays result in it. 😉

Sean Kelly was commenting on this t'other day. His view was Horner's numbers were not out of the ordinary.

I'd also like to think that it is a case of the clean riders now being able to shine with ex-dopers finding it tough.

LOL.

[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-seven-out-of-eight-pdm-riders-doped-at-1988-tour-de-france ]PDM[/url]

Richie_B - Member

The last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people.

I once felt that way I thought I had a good idea who was 'prepared' and who was clean but then again I believed in David Millar...

Richie, I believe that is a famous Armstrong quote...

😆 @ piemonster
<whoosh> @ Richie_B

I do find it interesting that he's "had" to miss most of the season due to being "injured" and so is "well rested". I wonder how often he's been tested...

Horner’s delight at taking his win was reflected most strongly when he spontaneously grabbed the press conference microphone and recounted how his 11-year-old son had said he would prefer him to continue racing when Horner had had doubts because of his knee injury earlier this year.

“He told me not to retire, because right now it was cool to be able to tell his friends his dad was a professional doing the Giro and other races, and with every pedal stroke I felt that, what he’d said.

“Now he can say his dad won the first Vuelta for America, he’s the only 40-something year-old to have won a Grand Tour, and that’s something he’ll be able to enjoy for the rest of his life, to enjoy that for ever.”

So what if he's 41?

Dont really care, f00kin great racing, best Grand Tour for years. Bring back no tests, would be a superb smashfest!

No evidence other than performances?

Then I'll take it at face value and enjoy it for the superb spectacle it is.

Not normal

Merak - what's that got to with Horner?

He looked ruined after today's finish.

I'm just wondering if all the people moaning are either 40+ fatties or young people who are 5hit riders who see their Dad beating them.

I do hope he is not on drugs but there are plenty of 40+ athletes out there.

He looked ruined after today's finish.

All part of the illusion(!)

I do hope he is not on drugs but there are plenty of 40+ athletes out there.

It is not the fact that he is a 40+ athlete, it is how the 40+ athlete competed against the rest of the elite peleton.

Frankenstein - Member
... there are plenty of 40+ athletes out there.

It's just that none of them are stuffing gc riders ten years or so their junior, having never won a gt stage let alone a gt jersey before and being so good they haven't even got a contract for 2104.

gutted for Nibali, thought he'd been holding something back for the Angliru and was excited when he took it on... great ending to a Tour that wasn't living up to expectations for me.
I just can't like Horner though... it's his attitude and demeanour as well as his unexpected performances.

I'm just wondering if all the people moaning

I got into sport first in the early/mid 90s, and with that became aware of pro cycling.

I've known nothing else but epo doping cyclists to be present in, and winning Grand Tours. So you'll have to forgive me if it takes a while to start believing in 'miracles'

Still, I'm hopeful that its not quite as bad as 100m sprinting, although I'm not willing to place bets.

In order to enjoy pro-cycling in these days of suspicion you need to institute a chinese wall in your head.

Watch the race. Enjoy the race. Don't think about the doping potential, it will spoil it for you.

I pity those poor individuals who are not capable of this. The Vuelta must have been an impoverished experience for you whereas for me it was exhilarating.

Horner's ride just wasn't credible.

It wasn't that bad, only saw a couple of the highlights. But yeh it was still a little bit meh.

Funniest thing was his speech at the end of the stage, I was waiting for the American national anthem to start playing. Cringeworthy (a bit like his performance).

It's just that none of them are stuffing gc riders ten years or so their junior

a pre ban Valverde would have walked all over Horner, now they're all clean* its a different story

*fingers crossed

warton - Member

He's 41
he's never won a grand tour stage before now
he said he's never seen doping
he was one of armstrongs most important riders

of course he's **** doping. kick him out.

You're right, with evidence like that why even bother testing?

a pre ban Valverde would have walked all over Horner

Indeed. There does seem to be a fair few top-end riders off their game this last year or two, or is it just me?

I'm just wondering if all the people moaning are either 40+ fatties or young people who are 5hit riders who see their Dad beating them.

40+ ex high level athlete here, who's found just how much harder it gets when you're over 40. Maybe those who aren't suspicious are either not old enough to know, or have never competed at a high enough level?

MAMIL hero or drug soaked yank.

rOcKeTdOg - Member

It's just that none of them are stuffing gc riders ten years or so their junior

a pre ban Valverde would have walked all over Horner, now they're all clean* its a different story

Nibali's not been banned but old man horner stuff's him?

correct, excellent analysis. Sean Kelly is looking over his shoulder

We all know what the real problem is here. I'm going to come out and say it. Forget all the doping suggestions and all that malarkey. The real problem is the viewers who are finding their bigotry challenged.

But it's OK, we forgive you. All we ask is that you reset your perceptions. You're wrong, all you have to do now is accept it and move on.

Now after me.....

"Slapheads can be winners too"

That's better isn't it?

In the pre-helmet days it was aerodynamical.

And yes, I hope he's clean, but I am finding it a little surprising.

I though Rodriguez might have done something in that stage.

Jens reckons he is clean, and that's good enough for me. Oh, and I'm a 40+ fattie!!

A brilliant end to a brilliant race. Well done Horner, and well done Nibali for giving it everything today.

Can't be a***d to watch it (or any other road race). Pro cycling is a joke.

I feel that way about football, so I don't watch it.

**** it. In the last few years I could have been persuaded by GB, Sky, the slower Spanish guys etc.

But the last few days of the 2013 Vuelta?

Next thing Phat Mcquaid will be re elected to his $40,0000,0000 a year consultancy (the UCI paperstamp) and there will be one person somewhere who still thinks that cycling has cleaned up.

I can't believe the amount of emotional baggage people attach to professional sport. Personally, I thought today's stage was one of the most entertaining stages I've seen for a long time. If Horner does fail a drugs test then it will be a shame, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

If you want honour, humility and fairy stories, go and watch sunday league rugby, go and watch a marathon and support all those struggling to even get to the finish line in the name of charity, go and watch an ironman and see what average people put their bodies through.

Don't rely on professional sport to uphold your moral and emotional standards: You will always be disappointed. Afterall, professional sport is a cut-throat, win at all costs occupation and couldn't give a crap about your idealistic view of your "heroes".

mikey74 nail on head!

Mikey74 ftw. Though it's a shame for the David Moncoutie's of this world.

CH was not riding on an Armstrong team pre 2009 and Horner is very experienced, spent most of his career riding for Continenal teams. His Palmares isnt littered with big wins but then neither are most GT riders! Horner is an experienced guy and is tactailly astute. He barely rides post May, Tour of Utah, Tour of California, season done... so was always coming it to this race fresh. Rodriguez has done something like 70k competitive kms this year finishing in the top 5 in each GT and somehow stays under the finger pointer's radar and Nibali is riding for Astana for heavens sake, Katie Price is cleaner than that team!

testing seemed to work well on the Giro with two Vini Fantini riders being kicked out so I think its reasonable to assume that anyone using PEDs will get caught....

Jens reckons he is clean

As for Horner, as David Millar is always reminding us, it's a new era now, and everything is better.

Quack.

Jens reckons he is clean

what else is he going to say on TV?